Permanent Death Servers

This would never work with an MMO.

XIV as it stands is 90% stick and 10% carrot. It would have to substantially change to 10% stick and 90% carrot.

That's why any game with permadeath has fast level progression.

Try doing more of the actual endgame content and you won't think Permanent Death is a good idea. People die so easily over the stupidest hiccups. Also, I don't think it will see enough use for players to get anything done. Besides, what if one of the roaming primals pops up when you're just trying to gather or do any other mundane solo activity? There's too much time investment to just throw it all away. If you want permanent death, there are plenty of other games to oblige you.

Geez, the amount of posts that are "it won't work because people don't want to do it" or "it won't work because it's Final Fantasy" are staggering. By all means post that you don't want this and why you don't and sure, go to the lengths of pointing out where you disagree with the OP, but please don't disregard the idea on the fact that you think you speak for everyone else or have put arbitrary limitations in place on the game's design where they don't currently exist. Clearly some people are in favour (looks about like half against, a third for and a sixth suggesting alternatives).

I hope the player-base is more open to the compromises that have been suggested; a different colour name displayed until your first death sounds easy to implement (cue lol screenshots of full-wipes with 8x gold names); achievements are very easy to add in. To have some kind of incentive on existing servers (rather than an individual perma-death server) may cause linkshells to come together to challenge content with a lack of death in mind as part of the tactics they use to attempt said content. I would use my main character for initial attempts at new content and an alt that I would try to keep 'Gold' once I had the experience.

Here's another compromise to the OP's concept I considered; if you get a Raise before you exit an instance, the death doesn't count as a perma-death. That gives Raise back some of its functionality, without reducing the 'hardcore' element significantly.

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Originally Posted by Mjollnir

I hope the player-base is more open to the compromises that have been suggested; a different colour name displayed until your first death sounds easy to implement (cue lol screenshots of full-wipes with 8x gold names); achievements are very easy to add in. To have some kind of incentive on existing servers (rather than an individual perma-death server) may cause linkshells to come together to challenge content with a lack of death in mind as part of the tactics they use to attempt said content. I would use my main character for initial attempts at new content and an alt that I would try to keep 'Gold' once I had the experience.

Here's another compromise to the OP's concept I considered; if you get a Raise before you exit an instance, the death doesn't count as a perma-death. That gives Raise back some of its functionality, without reducing the 'hardcore' element significantly.

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You've got some really good ideas there. If nothing comes of the permadeath servers I'd still be really happy with at least the achievements. Different colored names is a good one too.

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Originally Posted by IloveYouPumpkin

Different colored names is a good one too.

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Yeah, that one was DoctorMog a few pages back - kudos to them!

But then I could just turn that on in town and make myself look like I do it, but as soon as I go on an event I could turn it off. Who would know with all instance things?

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

But then I could just turn that on in town and make myself look like I do it, but as soon as I go on an event I could turn it off. Who would know with all instance things?

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Hm? I don't understand what you mean by turn it off/on? And why you would?

If you're referring to having a coloured name, the suggestion was to have your name, say, gold until you died when it would turn white.

This is one of the best ideas i've ever read on this forum.
I fully support it.
Also though, on semantics it would probably be server.
Many of the 'why nots' here are legit,
but this is a real case of THIS WORKS,
One server is not a money *****.
It's just a place for the masochists.
We've all got 40 character slots anyway.
My suggestions however...

Allow a player to be revived by another player within a set period of time.
This is reasonable and takes care of a few decent issues.

When the player is dead, that data is wiped from that server.
More room.

If the ARR server structure allows it...
Enable players to mail stuff from normal server characters to the death server character / vise versa. It's fair, so long as the player understands that everything held on death is deleted.

It probably wouldn't work as an entire server, there would be absolutely no economy because people would be constantly losing any sort of gil they might have earned, and unless someone wants to just play the game for crafting I couldn't see anyone actually spending the time to level a craft unless you get like 10x the exp you do currently with the risk of losing everything.

On top of that, this kind of thing really only works if you have a solo player game that can also be played multiplayer. This is a multiplayer game that can also be played solo. If someone of key importance dies during a raid 99.999% of the time everyone else in the party will die within the next 60 seconds or so unlike in diablo where if you are playing a game with someone and they die, you can still keep going and sustain yourself without them if you are skilled enough.

If SE could magically go poof and make this come to fruition without using any resources it wouldn't hurt to have it so you could have people play the game on the current servers with permadeath enabled for themselves, but I personally wouldn't want someone in my party that will disappear forever in a game where every difficult fight has one shot moves that are at times completely unavoidable.

The point you made is interesting, Req, about crafting in those worlds. It would come down to testing it to see if people would really die as much as you are expecting, or if people would really not be inclined to pick up a crafting class, and S-E could always balance the server according to the outcome. A very fast lvling experience for crafters sounds like it could work, but there could be other solutions.

A solution for the raid deaths, however, could be making the Raise spell only work on those areas, so that you can actually do the content that usually kills people without the concern that one mistake will get everyone hopelessly dead. Outside would be a different story, however.

To all the naysayers, fuck you. It's more than obvious you don't have to play on this server nor will this ever impact your game. S-E would never implement it unless it realized enough people wanted it, so your concern is futile. Just get on with your life and let us speculate in peace.

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Originally Posted by Darshu

The point you made is interesting, Req, about crafting in those worlds. It would come down to testing it to see if people would really die as much as you are expecting, or if people would really not be inclined to pick up a crafting class, and S-E could always balance the server according to the outcome. A very fast lvling experience for crafters sounds like it could work, but there could be other solutions.

A solution for the raid deaths, however, could be making the Raise spell only work on those areas, so that you can actually do the content that usually kills people without the concern that one mistake will get everyone hopelessly dead. Outside would be a different story, however.

To all the naysayers, fuck you. It's more than obvious you don't have to play on this server nor will this ever impact your game. S-E would never implement it unless it realized enough people wanted it, so your concern is futile. Just get on with your life and let us speculate in peace.

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Not enough people will ever want it. Or at least not enough for SE to care to spend resources.

I think this thread is dramatically underestimating the instant increase in player skill when something is on the line. People always up there game when they will lose something for failing. The number of deaths on a permadeath server would be far lower than anyone would anticipate. The only thing that would change that is open world PvP. There would be plenty of crafters and gatherers because it would be something you can do that doesn't put your life at risk. The economy would flourish because things would have real value. No one would level to 50 in level 10 armour. Players would be more conservative about who they party with and proven skill would be significantly more important. Strategy would become far more important because no one would try to do something as dumb as Train their way through Natalan.

I honestly think players would find this kind of server to be significantly more fun than a standard nothing you do matters server. There is only one stipulation I would make As I said before, if you die you are not deleted. You are moved to a regular server.

Your personal opinion, Renen. Couldn't care less about it or anyone's opinion on the matter of whether S-E will care, or if enough people will want it. Whatever you have to say about it will not change the reality. Is it really too hard to let those who want it speculate and have fun in peace?

You're watching too much Sword Art Online :p

I like your point on the way crafters might respond, Kiote, and I think it is a possible outcome. There would definitely be a need for the perfect gear on any given situation and that would require crafters. It could actually be a much more fun world for crafters to be in. Cosmetic items might not be as valued, though.

If, however, the economy responds differently than any other server in a significant way, then I think it would get in the way of implementing the death = regular server solution. Players could exploit items in that server, such as creating new characters just to buy cheap items there and then die, merge to another server (unless it was random, of course) and sell it. The constant influx of items, gil, and players from a different server could potentially harm the economy of other servers.

Having said that, I think dying and leaving the world forever would be an amazing thing, it would definitely not detract from the overall experience of death at every corner, keeping the game interesting and fun every step of the way, but it would also not hopelessly take characters away from the game once they failed. New players could always delete and create a new one, and veterans could just try getting used to the regular server if they didnt want to lose all their progress. There could even be a special server for hardcore players that have died, maybe not officially, and so you could eventually meet up with people you played with before and are used to a more strategic approach to the game instead of mixing with the general community.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

I think this thread is dramatically underestimating the instant increase in player skill when something is on the line. People always up there game when they will lose something for failing. The number of deaths on a permadeath server would be far lower than anyone would anticipate. The only thing that would change that is open world PvP. There would be plenty of crafters and gatherers because it would be something you can do that doesn't put your life at risk. The economy would flourish because things would have real value. No one would level to 50 in level 10 armour. Players would be more conservative about who they party with and proven skill would be significantly more important. Strategy would become far more important because no one would try to do something as dumb as Train their way through Natalan.

I honestly think players would find this kind of server to be significantly more fun than a standard nothing you do matters server. There is only one stipulation I would make As I said before, if you die you are not deleted. You are moved to a regular server.

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People might play better if things are on the line but that doesnt change the fact that all of the instances are inherently flawed in a way that they punish you with one shot moves for even the slightest mistake. This causes problems when the AI does things completely out of your control like ifrit extreme doing a jump then immediately using plumes all around him as soon as incinerate goes off. Another bullshit scenario I have seen atleast 4 times now is Chimaera charging voice of the dragon, then after its halfway charged his eyes turn blue and it kills half the party because it didn't give you the visual clues you needed to detect you needed to get out of range.

I really wish I had a video of an Ifrit fight I did last week where I literally ran all the way across the arena directly back from ifrit to the very edge leaving me nowhere further i could run and I still got hit by the eruption that spawned in the original spot I was standing right behind ifrit.

So many clueless posts in this thread ><. plenty of games that aint skill and mmo that have done this.

I just don't get the negativity? Don't like perma death? dont play on the server, Whats wrong with choice? Whats wrong with variety? Whats wrong if there is a large enough people who like to satisfy that like.

People have this freakish control over what this game is about, anything stirs from it forbid you get shot.

Its like PVP, its going to happen weather you like it or not, theres no action in the game so why is there pvp some might say, but its happening, and it will work. And if you dont like it you wont participate in it, why cant it be the same here?

Necro? Oh yes I did.


http://i1264.photobucket.com/albums/...lameshield.jpg

This actually sounds like an exciting idea. I've played games with perma-death, and they really add to the excitement and involvement you get in a game. There's more emotion involved because there's more at stake. This isn't everyone's cup of tea, that's for sure. And the perma-death servers I was on were very small. But the feeling you get from NOT dying in a close encounter is pretty exhilarating.

People who've played games like Dayz know what I'm talking about.

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There is only one stipulation I would make As I said before, if you die you are not deleted. You are moved to a regular server.

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I disagree with this suggestion. It'd cause too much confusion with regular servers. I think permadeath should be what it is. Permadeath. You can make other characters in other servers even with a basic subscription.

My suggestion? Make logging out only possible in safe zones (camps, inns, cities).




edit: Also, reading through some of the comments, I see 2 types of gamers here:

1. Gamers that play for the experience.

2. Gamers that play for EXP.

See what I did thar?

I'd be curious about this kind of thing. But I'd have to disagree with the "it doesn't have to be built for this style of gameplay" because so many fights have attacks that one shot mages so easily.

Still curious none the less.

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Originally Posted by Rex

I'd be curious about this kind of thing. But I'd have to disagree with the "it doesn't have to be built for this style of gameplay" because so many fights have attacks that one shot mages so easily.

Still curious none the less.

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Fuck mages.

that's a bit cruel considering we heal you :'(

The more I think about it, the more I like it.

Mages would have to pair up with other players for sure. Black mages would either have to consider survivability in their gear or keeping their hate completely in check. People wouldn't be able to build glass cannons anymore. Every nuke would be carefully placed. White Mages would be a necessity, and heaven help you all if they die.

DDs would have to keep their hate in check with the tank. Survivability abilities would be more useful, even in Full Party situations, making showing up as a Lancer instead of Dragoon a smart choice in certain situations.

Tanks would absolutely have to have the best gear for their level and HP buffs.

Journeys into dungeons would be careful affairs. Boss fights even moreso.

To make things fair, drop rates from bosses would have to be a higher %, but reentry timers would be lengthened. In fact, the whole game may have to be adjusted slightly in keeping with the theme of hardcore survival. Less anima, or heck, no teleporting allowed! Players would have get escorts to help them from one town to the next. Solo players could find work being mercenaries and guards. "Five thousand now... plus 15, when we get to Alderaan".

Crafters would rely on gatherer mats, rather than grab it themselves and risk losing all the levels they earned. Players would probably make multiple characters with specialized roles, so if one dies, they still have the others to back up a new one. After all, what's the point in leveling a craft if you're just going to lose all those levels dying to Ifrit?

I'm just drooling over the possibilities!

I think this would be awesome. However, I have no delusions that it would ever be implemented in ffxiv. waste of server space and not enuf interest. pple would spam it in the beginning but the numbers would dwindle too fast and by too much.

Like some other people here, the first thing i tot of when seeing this was Sword Art Online. hehe

To make this game like that would be uh-mazing and i'd be hella interested in that special server. I think it could work if people were given the ability to instantly return to safe zones from dungeons and dangerous areas like in SAO. that would compensate easily for the possibility of tanks and healers dc'ing in a boss fight.

Do this need a particular server?
Why not just delete yours char when they are KO'd?

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Originally Posted by Matsume

I disagree. I don't know of many usefull aetheryte camps that can't be acquired without death. Nor do I know of any gatherable materials that cannot be acquired without death. I don't see how acquiring any materia is based on dieing either and AF gear is push over content. AV and CC speed runs can easily be done without dieing but then again, who needs darklight anyway? Besides Relic Weapons and Primals I believe most of the content in his game can be done without dieing.

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Can you give me your account data for A Realm Reborn?
I want to see it myself ^^

I'd be all for a perma-death server... I wish the idea would be implemented but I'm sure it won't.

The concept is nice but it would be too frustrating for alot of people and nothing new would ever get done, Garuda, Ifrit, Moogle, Dungeons, for new players and could you imagine people trying to do Titan before anyone figured out how to beat it?

Maybe if it took/expanded the concept of Demonsouls/Darksouls where all your items and gear and gil dropped to the floor and you were sent back to the closest holy place/temple with no anima and severly weakened for a set period of time, i.e. 7days.

From this point you have the option to try and go to the point of your death in this weakened state and collect everything with the help of friends/guards (this can be inside a Primal fight or Dungeon and therefore the price of a guard would be determined by the risk factor involved) . If you pursued this option you would have an option to purchase holy items only available to players in this weakened state to reduce the risk to yourself and any people who party up to help you and thus the price that they will charge to help recover your items(this would be done through a formal contract within game where the payment is taken upon recovery of your items and the game can check your ingame assets to make sure you have the gil/items to pay the guards, if the items are not recovered then no payment is made to the guards).

Purchase of these holy items would rely on a special currency, something equivalent to GC seals, that would be recorded with the holy place as opposed to being carried on the character.

Examples of holy items would be

-Instant teleportation to the holy area (allows the party to instantly escape from combat if things go bad)

-An item which safeguards other members in your party to recover your stuff from going thought the same fate, i.e. raises the party member with no consequence. (only useable by weakened players and breaks upon use)

-An item which reduces the negative effect of being weakened for a set period of time.

Dying again whilst weakened would lead to a permenant Death whilst successful retrival would lead to complete restoration of items and gil.

The player also has the option of waiting at the holy place for 3 days to recover themselves. They would not be able to do anything outside of the area until they recover but it would not cause them to die (although they would lose all of their money and items they had at the time of death), in this place there would be free level 1 armour, tools, weapons etc to help them get back on their feet once they are able to leave.

They could also spend their special currency to reduce the amount of time needed to recover or use the facilities in holy area to earn the special currency like kill low level pests in the holy area (rats,wisps,chigoes), make level 1 tools (using the free level 1 tools available) , gather items for the making of said tools.

After 7 days from the initial death if you have not recovered from being weakened through either waiting at a holy place or recovered your gear then your character will die.

Its not like this perma will ever happen but I think that would be a better way of doing it rather than, you die once and you lose EVERYTHING, that would be like real life and thats boring enough as it is =(^_^)=.

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Originally Posted by Terru

The concept is nice but it would be too frustrating for alot of people and nothing new would ever get done, Garuda, Ifrit, Moogle, Dungeons, for new players and could you imagine people trying to do Titan before anyone figured out how to beat it?

Maybe if it took/expanded the concept of Demonsouls/Darksouls where all your items and gear and gil dropped to the floor and you were sent back to the closest holy place/temple with no anima and severly weakened for a set period of time, i.e. 7days.

From this point you have the option to try and go to the point of your death in this weakened state and collect everything with the help of friends/guards (this can be inside a Primal fight or Dungeon and therefore the price of a guard would be determined by the risk factor involved) . If you pursued this option you would have an option to purchase holy items only available to players in this weakened state to reduce the risk to yourself and any people who party up to help you and thus the price that they will charge to help recover your items(this would be done through a formal contract within game where the payment is taken upon recovery of your items and the game can check your ingame assets to make sure you have the gil/items to pay the guards, if the items are not recovered then no payment is made to the guards).

Purchase of these holy items would rely on a special currency, something equivalent to GC seals, that would be recorded with the holy place as opposed to being carried on the character.

Examples of holy items would be

-Instant teleportation to the holy area (allows the party to instantly escape from combat if things go bad)

-An item which safeguards other members in your party to recover your stuff from going thought the same fate, i.e. raises the party member with no consequence. (only useable by weakened players and breaks upon use)

-An item which reduces the negative effect of being weakened for a set period of time.

Dying again whilst weakened would lead to a permenant Death whilst successful retrival would lead to complete restoration of items and gil.

The player also has the option of waiting at the holy place for 3 days to recover themselves. They would not be able to do anything outside of the area until they recover but it would not cause them to die (although they would lose all of their money and items they had at the time of death), in this place there would be free level 1 armour, tools, weapons etc to help them get back on their feet once they are able to leave.

They could also spend their special currency to reduce the amount of time needed to recover or use the facilities in holy area to earn the special currency like kill low level pests in the holy area (rats,wisps,chigoes), make level 1 tools (using the free level 1 tools available) , gather items for the making of said tools.

After 7 days from the initial death if you have not recovered from being weakened through either waiting at a holy place or recovered your gear then your character will die.

Its not like this perma will ever happen but I think that would be a better way of doing it rather than, you die once and you lose EVERYTHING, that would be like real life and thats boring enough as it is =(^_^)=.

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It won't work in FFXIV. Its a fully-blown MMO, not an action RPG on a console.

1) Demon's Souls and Dark Souls never leave all of your gear on the ground when you die. The only things you leave on the ground are souls and humanity (at least in DKS: I don't remember Demon's Souls too much).

2) The combat is completely different. In those games, combat is weighted and feels a bit visceral when you get up-and-close with another guy. It takes effort to block, roll, dodge, and attack, all the while controlling your stamina levels at the same time. We can do none of these things in FFXIV, and not many MMOs at all, actually.

3) The progression is also different. FFXIV has a lot of things to keep track of: inventory, quests, achievements, titles, different class and job levels, etc. People have put hundreds or even thousands of hours into games like FFXI and FFXIV - if one death were to completely annihilate your hard work from existence just like that, I think a lot of people would be pretty damn pissed, don't you? In both DS games, you don't even LOSE your progression - you'll just die and go back to the last bonfire you used.

D2-style hardcore ladder does not work in an MMO. It never will. Especially in FFXI / FFXIV. This thread needs to hit the archive now, lol.

I don't like this idea for myself, but..

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Originally Posted by TaalAzura

I think it would be a lot of fun if implemented correctly. Perhaps instead of when you die, you have a 5:00 timer after you die that, if you don't receive a raise in time, you die for good. Albeit less hardcore, it still wounds like it would provide a lot of fun.

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^ This sounds like Tactics. Anything that sounds like Tactics has to be good. O_O

http://nerdtrek.com/wp-content/uploa...sy-tactics.jpg

Only if you die in RL too, like SAO :D

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Originally Posted by Matsume

<sarcasm>You're right, it takes forever to powerlvl to lvl 50...not to mention all the danger involved in gathering materials to spam enter craft</sarcasm>

I for one think this would be a fun alternative. I imagine everyone would have a character on these servers and cherish them with ll they've got. The only problem I could see is running past a zone full of agro mobs that don't appear on your map til you're already dead. Once the regional servers are up and running and the new server architecture is in place for ARR this could be feasable.

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exactly how many lvl 50's do you think will be PL'ing people on a server with permadeath.

fyi, this is the worst idea ive heard yet from any thread from any forum from any game.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

exactly how many lvl 50's do you think will be PL'ing people on a server with permadeath.

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I don't think PLing will exist in ARR.

Anyway.... TAC~TICS!!!

I'm Ninesunz and i approve of a perma death server, for i would play in it.

And for all the people that don't want to go on this server, they have hours of entertainment. They get to watch videos of people dying permanently. It's a bitter sweet feeling, I can laugh all day at those.

the server would be so populated like the current servers.

i dont know how this would work. how many deaths you had in 1.0.? hundreds? that'd mean hundreds of new characters? I personally would get bored at the character creation screen then ;D

"lets fight garuda for the first time" "oh no sorry i heard she is too difficult we may die, especially on the first try". as the same for all other bosses. relic weapons or even primal weapons? forget about it. perma death doesnt work in -any- game.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

perma death doesnt work in -any- game.

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That's a bold statement. I'll take the pepsi challenge on that any day of the week.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

perma death doesnt work in -any- game.

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Diablo II
Diablo III

to name 2 Games with permanent death-modes. Want me to name you 10 more?

If killed you're given the option of transferring to a normal server.

As someone who has played and enjoyed perm death RPGs, I must say this is one of the worst ideas yet. Basically as idiotic as the Diablo 3 players saying characters lost in hardcore mode should be transferred into normal mode.

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* When you die in-game you also die IRL.

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Someone has been watching way too much SAO I guess x)
Well I'm not one to complain. I just recently said how awesome such a game would be because you treasure your life a lot.. (except for the die in RL part obviously xD)
I think it's too expensive to have a whole server running for the few who'd want to go there. But I always kind of enjoyed PK servers in some games (although I hate PvP) because dying and losing equipment was permanent so I became extremely careful not to die or be found and learned how to outrun enemies and such. It's a lot of fun :3

But not for a main character after all.