@Casuals , do you think the message has gotten through?

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Originally Posted by Volgia

But they haven't released "Nothing but raids", the only new raid thing they released was Chaotic. Everything else has been the same content patch release since Stormblood.

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Chaotic and Forked Tower: Blood are both new raids that are inaccessible to casual players, there's a whole thread with finger pointing over who deserves to go in and how hard or easy it is to complete.

Meanwhile, we get, what? Beast Tribes?

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Originally Posted by Volgia

The problem isn't the lack of varied new content, the problem is the normal content has become dull and boring, they decimated most of the complex systems pre-Shadowbringers and now we're just on that late stage version of the game where no one is happy.

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So, everything should be dull and boring except raids? Are raids all that matter? Why? Says who?

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Originally Posted by Volgia

The game has also fostered a strong divide between casual/hardcore content. So if anything in normal mode gives you a bit of friction (STrayborough, M2N) people come here in tears asking why they don't toss that onto the hardcore pile, or wonder why no one is catering towards them specifically.

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It's done no such thing. We've done it to ourselves. Casuals accusing hardcores of wanting difficulty increases, hardcores accusing casuals of wanting to dumb the gameplay down, as if those are the two only options. And each time SE listens to whichever voice is the loudest, they get accused of siding with one or the other. It's completely possible to make both sides happy.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

You accused me of arguing in bad faith and nitpicking so IDK if responding to you is productive, but this is my stance on the matter.

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You are though. You've gone on record saying "What we expect from an MMO?", as if every single MMO on the market just focuses on raids (SWtoR doesn't exist, SWG didn't exist, OSRS doesn't exist...) or "We're incapable of socialising" (what exactly are the Mentors and Sprouts doing in NN when they ask questions or make puns or mess around or ask for help? What about people who just sit around sometimes and chat? Is that not socialising? Is socialising only laugh at silly deaths in a hard raid to you?).

This raid first mentality is archaic. It wasn't even popular when it was popular. It's very possible for smart developers and designers to sit down and have a discussion and try and make new things and improve old things. The want just needs to be there.

And no, I don't want you to lose your raids, but trying to say this is an MMO, you just can't socialise, just raid and try it out, helps nobody. And the numbers show it. People are leaving in droves.

Just because I play an MMO doesn't meant I want to always socialise either. Sometimes I just want to be left alone, but like the feeling of being in a living, breathing world. Just like, in real life, just because I smile to a passerby and say Good Morning!, doesn't mean I want to go to the pub with them.

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

Chaotic and Forked Tower: Blood are both new raids that are inaccessible to casual players, there's a whole thread with finger pointing over who deserves to go in and how hard or easy it is to complete..

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Chaotic is hardcore, Forked Tower isn't inaccesible at all. Tons of casual players get through it just fine.

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

So, everything should be dull and boring except raids? Are raids all that matter? Why? Says who?

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No one. You're the one making that conclusion in your head, even savage players would benefit from the regular being more engaging, you think we like grinding the same 4 fights for months at a time?

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

It's done no such thing. We've done it to ourselves. Casuals accusing hardcores of wanting difficulty increases, hardcores accusing casuals of wanting to dumb the gameplay down, as if those are the two only options. And each time SE listens to whichever voice is the loudest, they get accused of siding with one or the other. It's completely possible to make both sides happy.

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Oh it has 100% done it. Famous YoshiP words, "If you wanna have fun healing, go do it in Ultimate", it's shifting blame, we didn't ask for the gameplay to only be significant in hard content, THEY did that.

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

Social commentary

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This MMO has an aggressive amount of content you can do without talking to anyone, what it barely has is any content you can form a community around. You can go do the whole MSQ, PVP, Crafting and Gathering, the normal raids, the trials, the 24mans without having to talk to a single soul. It's another 90/10 ratio.

You might not know this but savage players aren't happy with the game either, our jobs and sense of challenge has been slowly stripped every expansion, and it was because CBU3 shifted it's design elements for mass appeal, it was not for the benefit of hardcore players in mind.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

Chaotic is hardcore, Forked Tower isn't inaccesible at all. Tons of casual players get through it just fine.

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Spare me the gaslighting with Forked Tower isn't inaccessible, when all evidence is contrary to that.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

No one. You're the one making that conclusion in your head, even savage players would benefit from the regular being more engaging, you think we like grinding the same 4 fights for months at a time?

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Of course you'd benefit from it. We all would. So, why is Forked Tower inaccessible to anyone but preformed large groups? And, as much as you might feel like grinding the same 4 fights for months at a time is not engaging (and I understand), that's still alot more content that any casual gets.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

Oh it has 100% done it. Famous YoshiP words, "If you wanna have fun healing, go do it in Ultimate", it's shifting blame, we didn't ask for the gameplay to only be significant in hard content, THEY did that.

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Ah yes! Also the infamous, "they're dumbing down the game because of casuals complaining". Do you really believe, casual players, who, on the one hand, can't do a rotation to save their lives according to these forums, and on the other, also complain about kits being too complicated, according to the forums? Casual players don't give a damn what an optimal rotation is, or getting buffs lined up.

When I'm in a Trial, or Normal Raid, or Alliance Raid, I'll never even bother checking if my buff lines up with anything at all, barring the occasional is there another scholar and I wait to use my Chain Stratagem or not. What other players are doing around me, is of no consequence, as long as the boss ends up on the floor and I win.

The job homogenisation is entirely on the dev team wanting to make balancing easier, and raiders demanding an easier time in lining up their different GCD cooldowns. If it were up to me, there'd be no such thing as buff alignment whatsoever, and the abilities would be no more than a single bar, and each would be different, unique and could be used in varying situations reactively. But, that's just me.

The whole idea that casuals are somehow to blame for job homogenisation is one of the biggest, fattest lies ever spewed on these forums, bar none.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

This MMO has an aggressive amount of content you can do without talking to anyone, what it barely has is any content you can form a community around. You can go do the whole MSQ, PVP, Crafting and Gathering, the normal raids, the trials, the 24mans without having to talk to a single soul. It's another 90/10 ratio.

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One, how's this a bad thing? Two, what's your point? All of those things are one and done. They've got no replayability whatsoever.

Why is having something fun, entertaining and casual, something that you can pick up and drop on the fly with others, somehow impacting your raiding experience? Again, socialising isn't just forming a raid group. Just because I don't want to lookup a guide, read it for two hours, spend another hour hitting a dummy to make sure I have a perfect rotation, then find a PF or join a static, just so I can get to play the game, how does that impact you?

Am I coming into your static and telling you to drop everything and come sit by me while I craft or something?

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Originally Posted by Volgia

You might not know this but savage players aren't happy with the game either, our jobs and sense of challenge has been slowly stripped every expansion, and it was because CBU3 shifted it's design elements for mass appeal, it was not for the benefit of hardcore players in mind.

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I'm well aware nobody's really happy with the game right now. But, of the two sides, you're the ones getting at least something for your subscription cost. Trying to persuade casual players that they should just be happy with 4 hours on a weekend, for a single patch, then waiting four months, or joining a Discord group and jumping through hoops, while you go out and replay your Savage raids and Chaotic Raids and 48 man preformed Forked Tower groups, over and over for gear, or mount, or whatever it is you do.

Don't think for a second I didn't see your glib remark on the other thread about how Forked Tower doesn't need a Normal mode.

I mean reading through this form ( and others like it since OC)

Why are the arguments always hardcore vs casuals. ( especially since what defines each varies for each person, and so is completely worthless).

They should be -> why does square put out less engaging and less rewarding content for everyone lately. The biggest problem is lack of engaging content that every level of player can enjoy, especially outside of the pf system.

And the bigger problem is we used to have it ->

Bodja duels were almost perfect. Every skill level can approach it, with the less skilled players slowly learning the fate clear conditions and higher skilled players choosing to do it blind to practice learning mechanics.
We had a queuable mode for casuals, with bonus rewards for doing tricky problems, while also getting a savage mode that wasn't a nightmare to get a team for. Why did square introduce a system that makes everyone mad in some way?

Also to this day, im trying to figure out who the class design is for. While there is large problems with HW/SB class design ( piercing weakness forcing certain group combos, pld during HW as a whole), the greater variety meant it took longer for the easier content to become stale. Leveling another class had more gameplay weight, even with less overall dungeons in the queue. And back in the day I don't remember the casual players really complaining about the design ( it was the raiding group, and it was the stupid decisions like making pld useless in HW).


Square needs to do 4 things ->

1) Whenever they release content, it needs to bring with it the expectations that the previous version brought in. OC really needed multiple engaging/accessable endgoals within the zone, but only brought 1.
2) They need to bring this content out to the regular world in some way. Even in piece meal over patches.
3) They need a better content cadence. What I mean is we needed to wait untill 7.2, then wait a couple of months for fixes, then wait till 7.5 for the fix? Doing step 2 would at least alleviate it, and if they combined aspects with the outer world we don't have to waste a bunch of developer time on designing one unique zone. It also means the fulfilling outdoor content exist on day 1, and has a better consistent patch cycle.
4) They need to do something else for class design. Make it more varied. This way casual content is a lot less stale. A lot more people would be inclined to farm out gearsets for all the roles if they all had some unique, fresh gameplay that requires some intelligence to utilize. It wouldn't affect normal modes much ( since dps checks don't actually exist, and HW/SB proved that they were easily clearable anyways), savage players would like the increased difficulty, and it stops every run from feeling samey.

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

Ah yes! Also the infamous, "they're dumbing down the game because of casuals complaining".

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When I said "They" I meant CBU3, I didn't say the casual players, lol. That's why I added at the very end that CBU3 did this not with savage players in mind, but with the idea of complete mass appeal.

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

Spare me the gaslighting with Forked Tower isn't inaccessible, when all evidence is contrary to that.

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You can literally walk into the instance by putting your cipher in and waiting for your other 45 randos to join. You don't need too much of a special expertise in the game to clear it.

Even if I agreed that FT is hardcore, it's still only 3 things: Chaotic, FT and Ultimate. You aren't talking about the rest of things they have released: ALL of Occult Crescent. All of Cosmic Exploration. All the hunt marks and fates on DT's overworld, the 3 alliance raids, the 7 expert MSQ dungeons, the Job Quests, Deep Dungeon, Manderville Quests, seasonal events and I can go on and on, the majority of what they release is casual.

Casual and Hardcore content only kind of share extremes and savages and that's it.

The argument of "it's not very engaging" doesn't matter, that's another subject, but they're certainly NOT appealing to hardcore raiders in this game.

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Originally Posted by Altina_Orion

To be frank, I think casuals are babied so much by yoshi-p that they never gain a skill level beyond what you'd expect of someone in sastasha. It's actually pathetic when I see people die 3-4 times on an expert dungeon boss which is still very casual. People have no idea what their abilities do, don't know how to read cast bars, and expect people to carry them though the game. "normal mode" is absolutely the equivalent of story mode in other games, a mode designed to push players through the story with very little resistance. Yet people with 1000+ hours into the game still can't dodge a floor AOE or keep more than 50% ABC.

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I really doubt that people dying repeatedly in experts have anything to do with their actual abilities and castbars tbh. Those barely matter.

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Originally Posted by Lorika

It's not a popular opinion but ShB wasn't exceptional
The first thing that pop in my mind when i think about it is a "bland square"
Meaning : everything is well executed and polished but it has no soul. The story is well writen with a good pacing but it doesn't delivers emotion like with HW. The gameplay is good and polished but isn't as fun and engaging as SB patchs.
Overal it's well done but, for me it was really the confirmation of the decline after SB started it.

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HW delivered emotion?
Guess all of this is subjective. I got varied ranges of emotions from most expansions (yes, even from DT to a small degree exactly once in Origenics) and all of them of very different kinds. I don't find XIV to be outstandingly good at conveying said emotion by virtue of being ten times too verbose and speaking like an old book and tiptoeing around actually moving moments, and I honestly don't know which expansion managed to give me the most of it.
The gameplay though? Plummeting with every expansion.

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Originally Posted by Merrigan

You have to stop exaggerating at some point. To say that you're struggling with normal content? That's fine. It's a game, no problem. But you have to keep a certain amount of lucidity and not make false statements. Here, the fact that you're struggling to complete this type of content doesn't necessarily equate to a design error in the encounters.

In any case, the majority of players can complete this content: all you have to do is play with people who will pick you up when you make a mistake - which is possible, because there's no general wipe in normal content when an individual mistake is made.

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Which false statements? That they don't like this type of design? How can this be false? If someone hates "boss puzzle emotes" and fails because of it, and isn't having a great time because of it, not only it's their right to think that way, but being "picked up" again and again until you get carried to the end doesn't sound like the best of experiences tbh.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

You can literally walk into the instance by putting your cipher in and waiting for your other 45 randos to join. You don't need too much of a special expertise in the game to clear it.

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Can I? Then explain to me the body check requirements, the specific Phantom Job requirements, the whole bruhaha over snipers, the rez restrictions, the getting kicked out in less than 5 minutes because some random first mechanic just throws you off the map, and the losing an entire level and having to grind it up again for no discernible reason?

I don't know what world raiders live in, but that's not pickup and go casual content.

Casual content is something you can go in with whomever and limp to the end. Then do better the next time, and the next time even better, until you can do it perfectly.

It's not, this person didn't stand here at the right second, so now everyone's dead, and it's certainly not, I didn't peer into the future to know in advance that I had to stand three steps to the left so I don't die and get booted back into the zone with a lost level.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

Even if I agreed that FT is hardcore, it's still only 3 things: Chaotic, FT and Ultimate. You aren't talking about the rest of things they have released: ALL of Occult Crescent. All of Cosmic Exploration. All the hunt marks and fates on DT's overworld, the 3 alliance raids, the 7 expert MSQ dungeons, the Job Quests, Deep Dungeon, Manderville Quests, seasonal events and I can go on and on, the majority of what they release is casual.

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MSQ of a patch, Hildy is what? 4 hours worth of content? Then it's DF fodder for 20 minutes a day? Same for AR.
I'm not even sure you can qualify Hunts as content, but whatever. It's like saying, you haven't caught every fish, so what're you complaining about?

Everything else you're mentioning is just niche. Savage Raids, Ultimate Raids, Baldesion Arsenal, Forked Tower, Deep Dungeons, all niche content. There's nothing wrong with it existing, it should exist, but it's never going to be popular to the majority playerbase, nor should it be trying to force itself to be, that's the point.

I'm not going to tell another casual player, well you haven't cleared PotD, so you've got nothing to complain about.

And again, I'm not saying raiders have it easy, but you definitely are having alot more to do than the rest of us. It's been a raid heavy year, between EX, Savage, Ultimate, Chaotic, Forked Tower, and another Ultimate confirmed too. Plus the upcoming EX again, the Unreals. It's all raids, everywhere raids.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

Casual and Hardcore content only kind of share extremes and savages and that's it.

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They don't share savages. 20% - 30% of your playerbase isn't sharing anything. Savage isn't casual, even when it comes to Unreal or EX, it's a toss up for alot of people if it qualifies as casual or not, but Savage definitely isn't.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

The argument of "it's not very engaging" doesn't matter, that's another subject, but they're certainly NOT appealing to hardcore raiders in this game.

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Of course it matters. Content for everyone, should be for everyone, everyone should be engaged and having fun. That was the entire point of Field Ops, that's what everyone else who doesn't raid, spent the last year waiting patiently for, barring forum complainers. That's why they had to ban comments live on their live letter when they were getting torn to shreds.

chaotic is not hardcore at all while FTB requires hardcore commitment. I cleared chaotic in a few hours vs needing a week+ for ftb. (you can get carried through both but ftb requires more effort overall)

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

I don't know what world raiders live in, but that's not pickup and go casual content.

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Raiders tend to be a little deluded when it comes to what a casual is. They think a casual is that shapeless blob that will consume absolutely everything that's not savage content, and that they're the prime audience for everything. Or that said casual content is one uniform blob that is to be consumed whole in its entirety. Being a casual gamer doesn't mean being wired to enjoy fate farming until you die of boredom, hunt trains, doh/dol content, maps content, deep dungeons, dailies and leveling, housing, roleplay, msq and sidequests and everything in between OR nothing at all. Casuals aren't binary critters.

If anything the real issue that most casual players raise is how poor and thin casual pve has grown in comparison to raiding.

As a raider the time spent between casual pve and savage+ content probably lies around a 10:90 ratio. Now that I've stopped raiding, casual pve went up a little to cover what savage fed me otherwise in gear, but that ain't much.

Chaotic is a beefed up Extreme with cheesable bodychecks and a DPS check that is nonexistent even when you're absolutely braindead. FTB requires sincere organisation and the will to actually pull your weight, but is - aside from boss 2 as well as boss 4 daggers - also just a beefed up Extreme. And Extremes are very much casual content because of how free they are (we don't talk about 4head breaking PF).

In case you're literally an NPC who only does normal content, you still get way more than midcore to hardcore players:

- 1 dungeon per patch
- TT
- farmable series rewards you can literally grab from sandbagging in Frontline
- 4 normal raids every second patch
- alliance raids every second patch
- base OC because you can farm a fuckton of glam plus a mount
- MSQ is inherently casual content
- treasure hunt
- cosmic exploration
- continuous gold saucer rewards
- ocean fishing exists
- housing is casual content. as a housing main i do get to say this

Like seriously, the only actual hardcore content in this game is Ultimate and some particularly nasty Savages. Savage is midcore, and again, all Savages become trivial in two patches' time. Casuals have enough. FTB isn't even hardcore unless you consider not being an antisocial leech hardcore.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

Even if I agreed that FT is hardcore, it's still only 3 things: Chaotic, FT and Ultimate. You aren't talking about the rest of things they have released: ALL of Occult Crescent. All of Cosmic Exploration. All the hunt marks and fates on DT's overworld, the 3 alliance raids, the 7 expert MSQ dungeons, the Job Quests, Deep Dungeon, Manderville Quests, seasonal events and I can go on and on, the majority of what they release is casual.

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DDs casual? Please, do tell me the many people who easily clear the higher floors of any DD out there. The higher floors are called challenge floors for a reason. They're even adding a higher difficulty boss after clearing it to try and entice you to actually try DDs because I can tell you haven't touched any of the orbs solo by your posts. Should be easy for you to do? Why not do it to prove it's casual?

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Originally Posted by 0blivion

In case you're literally an NPC who only does normal content

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I give up. I'm going back to my peace and quiet. There's really no use talking to a wall.

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Originally Posted by Uzephi

DDs casual? Please, do tell me the many people who easily clear the higher floors of any DD out there. The higher floors are called challenge floors for a reason. They're even adding a higher difficulty boss after clearing it to try and entice you to actually try DDs because I can tell you haven't touched any of the orbs solo by your posts. Should be easy for you to do? Why not do it to prove it's casual?

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Having done them all, I can confidently say that PotD and HoH floor 100 with a light party is definitely casual. It's very approachable, and we (casual friends for HoH back in SB and literally sprouts from NN for PotD more recently) cleared both in one go. The difference with a dungeon is that you can wipe to misfortune and requires you to think and adjust to random stuff, but it's very not hard.
Eureka Orthos on the other end? Yes, it's not casual. Savage? Probably not, but it's more demanding, and I've yet to clear it after a handful of failures due to all the OHKO mechanics to memorize, this was with actual friend raiders, and we need to get back to it.

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

I give up. I'm going back to my peace and quiet. There's really no use talking to a wall.

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I mean, they see you as a "braindead NPC", that's a great way to engage into a discussion no?

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Originally Posted by 0blivion

In case you're literally an NPC who only does normal content, you still get way more than midcore to hardcore players:

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People like you are not doing much for the public image of the raiding scene. You talking down to anyone who doesn't do centain content adds a lot to the friction in the playerbase.
Luckily, I know many raiders from my own raiding days who don't think and talk like you do, but if I didn't, stumbled into the forum and read this...oof. I absolutely would get a bad image of raiders right away.

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Originally Posted by 0blivion

Chaotic is a beefed up Extreme with cheesable bodychecks and a DPS check that is nonexistent even when you're absolutely braindead. FTB requires sincere organisation and the will to actually pull your weight, but is - aside from boss 2 as well as boss 4 daggers - also just a beefed up Extreme. And Extremes are very much casual content because of how free they are (we don't talk about 4head breaking PF).

In case you're literally an NPC who only does normal content, you still get way more than midcore to hardcore players:

- 1 dungeon per patch
- TT
- farmable series rewards you can literally grab from sandbagging in Frontline
- 4 normal raids every second patch
- alliance raids every second patch
- base OC because you can farm a fuckton of glam plus a mount
- MSQ is inherently casual content
- treasure hunt
- cosmic exploration
- continuous gold saucer rewards
- ocean fishing exists
- housing is casual content. as a housing main i do get to say this

Like seriously, the only actual hardcore content in this game is Ultimate and some particularly nasty Savages. Savage is midcore, and again, all Savages become trivial in two patches' time. Casuals have enough. FTB isn't even hardcore unless you consider not being an antisocial leech hardcore.

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2 Patches time is more time then most casual stuff has, and you shouldnt take old content in consideration

Ocean Fishing? No need to grind it, the moment you reach the necessary points to get the mounts/minion its done and btw this is not up2date content

Im a raider myself and i love challenging hard content, and im really the opinion endgame should be based around that kind of content, but even i see the lack of meaningful content for casuals which isnt one and done, which has a reason to grind over and over again

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Originally Posted by Valence

Having done them all, I can confidently say that PotD and HoH floor 100 with a light party is definitely casual. It's very approachable, and we (casual friends for HoH back in SB and literally sprouts from NN for PotD more recently) cleared both in one go. The difference with a dungeon is that you can wipe to misfortune, but it's very not hard.

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Difficulty =/= casual. You need a premade party, scheduling, etc for the challenge floors. The bad side of the random traps is a run can go sideways to a wipe very quick 'wasting' a good chunk of time reclimbing. I've seen many not reattempt because they don't want that time lost again. The best way to imagine casuals: is it easily picked up and put down? No? Not casual.

With a light party and a clean run, sure it is casual friendly, now find 3 others to 'marry' until you clear the 8+ (hoh&EO starting at 21 being less time consuming to clear to 100 than starting at 51 going to 200 in potd) duties with no wipes in a row. Could be 15mins each duty could be up to an hour depending on the run, luck, skill etc. That equates to near 7 hours per attempt for hoh/EO double for potd. Now schedule that with 3 others. Sure, it can be picked up whenever, but I've personally had 7 saves reset because of scheduling issues and needing to use the save.

I thought it was funny when someone on the ffxivdiscussion subreddit told me I was killing this game when I said I don't do Savage, but now I think "literally an NPC" takes the cake

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Originally Posted by Altina_Orion

No, its a loud minority of players on the FFXIV forums who think they represent the population. Go around and ask people in game how they feel, I have. Shout chat, NN, etc. I haven't found a single person in game who actually feels DT is too hard.

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I hate to burst your bubble, but there are a lot of people who play this game who are.... exceedingly bad at gaming. They're just here for the visual novel part and have literally zero skill in playing a video game. In SB, I gave up progging Susano EX after I spent 14 hours trying to clear it through PF and constantly having people drop cause it was "too hard." Worst part is, we would actually make progress, and get close and then people would just give up instead of pushing through.

These are the same players who whined about Thunder God Cid til he got nerfed. God forbid there be even a modicum of friction for someone in an alliance raid. At least I have the honor of being able to say I cleared him in his original difficulty.

I once had a friend who asked me to log in to their account for them and clear something. What, you ask? An EX trial? A Savage raid boss? DRS? No... The roleplay instance with Estinien in Garlemald. They could not beat the solo instance by themselves, even after adjusting the difficulty to Very Easy.

IMO one of the best pieces of content we ever got was Memoria Misera EX. Not only because it was a fun battle by itself, but because it forced players to run it to get their dyeable AF gear, meaning it forced casuals to get good if they want their treat. I met many people who whined about it, but I also met many people who were happy with themselves for clearing it and improving their skill at the game. I wish the game did more things like that, trying to raise the overall skill floor of the players, instead of just pushing the difficulty into the two extremes of "Snoozefest" and "Sweaty Tryhard".

I guess my point is.... Please do not underestimate FFXIV players and their ability to not be good at the game.

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Originally Posted by Altina_Orion

I agree with this though, thats a VERY different thing then what they were arguing about/saying. They were saying that story dungeons are too hard and that most players agree with that.

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For many of the people I encounter in my friends groups in game, in FCs, and random parties... the answer is yes. Yes, they DO find Normal Mode dungeons/story content too difficult. That's my "lived experience" with regards to players and difficulty.

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Originally Posted by 0blivion

Chaotic is a beefed up Extreme with cheesable bodychecks and a DPS check that is nonexistent even when you're absolutely braindead. FTB requires sincere organisation and the will to actually pull your weight, but is - aside from boss 2 as well as boss 4 daggers - also just a beefed up Extreme. And Extremes are very much casual content because of how free they are (we don't talk about 4head breaking PF).

In case you're literally an NPC who only does normal content, you still get way more than midcore to hardcore players:

- 1 dungeon per patch
- TT
- farmable series rewards you can literally grab from sandbagging in Frontline
- 4 normal raids every second patch
- alliance raids every second patch
- base OC because you can farm a fuckton of glam plus a mount
- MSQ is inherently casual content
- treasure hunt
- cosmic exploration
- continuous gold saucer rewards
- ocean fishing exists
- housing is casual content. as a housing main i do get to say this

Like seriously, the only actual hardcore content in this game is Ultimate and some particularly nasty Savages. Savage is midcore, and again, all Savages become trivial in two patches' time. Casuals have enough. FTB isn't even hardcore unless you consider not being an antisocial leech hardcore.

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That list is dishonest about the topic.

First lets remove all the non-battle-content because that content is for everyone, not just casuals.

So lets take a closer look at the "normal difficulty" side and the "higher difficulty" side
- MSQ = onetime for everyone low difficulty because everyone needs to be able to do it
- 1 dungeon per patch with 0 reason to play it more than 1 time
- 4 normal raids (loot: gear + minion)
--- with 4 savage raids (loot: higher gear + mount)
- alliance raid (loot: gear on par with tomestone... + minion)
--- chaotic (loot: 2 mounts and more)
- base OC (loot: glam, worthless stuff, 1 mount)
--- FT (loot: TT card, field notes, mount, sanguinite for +2 OC gear)
- normal trails (no loot)
--- extreme trails (loot: mount)
- treasure hunt low difficulty good loot
--- ultimate high difficulty - glowing weapons, glamplate stuff
--- Unreal (lots of mounts)


Raiders complained about criterion rewards, but take a look at all that casual-battle-content with close to no rewards at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Uzephi

Difficulty =/= casual. You need a premade party, scheduling, etc for the challenge floors. The bad side of the random traps is a run can go sideways to a wipe very quick 'wasting' a good chunk of time reclimbing. I've seen many not reattempt because they don't want that time lost again. The best way to imagine casuals: is it easily picked up and put down? No? Not casual.

With a light party and a clean run, sure it is casual friendly, now find 3 others to 'marry' until you clear the 8+ (hoh&EO starting at 21 being less time consuming to clear to 100 than starting at 51 going to 200 in potd) duties with no wipes in a row. Could be 15mins each duty could be up to an hour depending on the run, luck, skill etc. That equates to near 7 hours per attempt for hoh/EO double for potd. Now schedule that with 3 others. Sure, it can be picked up whenever, but I've personally had 7 saves reset because of scheduling issues and needing to use the save.

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Ok fair enough, but I mean, if you're further restricting casual to that it absolutely needs a duty finder to be played solo... In a MMO? I feel that's pushing it.

Honestly I fucking hate this casual/midcore/hardcore bullshit anyway. Nobody agrees on what it is, and those words are meaningless.
Do I agree that the optional floors of deep dungeons require more than a story dungeon to do? Yes I do, I consider them on par on difficulty with CLL/Dalriada or certain alliance raids at release (Ozma, Diabolos, Ivalice, Nier), but that's subjective. Does it mean that a lot of ARs aren't casual at release when it comes to difficulty? Maybe idk.
Do I agree that the optional floors of deep dungeons require more organization and commitment than anything "casual" the game has to offer? Yes, it definitely requires creating groups, and committing because like any roguelite, it requires progression and a full run cannot be done in bite sized content clearable in 15-30min and you're done with it. It definitely restricts the audience.

I don't know if it's casual or not. It's gonna feel casual to some, and not to others.

The other thing I know is that EO is definitely not casual by any means in comparison though and that's where they dropped the ball.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Uzephi

DDs casual? Please, do tell me the many people who easily clear the higher floors of any DD out there. The higher floors are called challenge floors for a reason. They're even adding a higher difficulty boss after clearing it to try and entice you to actually try DDs because I can tell you haven't touched any of the orbs solo by your posts. Should be easy for you to do? Why not do it to prove it's casual?

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You don't start that content at the highest level floors and you only need organized parties later on, it is 90% casual content, with again 10% of really hardcore difficulty. Before you react so aggressively please take a moment to think, jesus christ.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

Before you react so aggressively please take a moment to think, jesus christ.

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I never knew asking questions as being aggressive. Quite honest question. You claim it's casual, then please tell me how the higher floors are casual. If you can't 'complete' it in a casual sense, is it considered even partially casual? The basis around needing the coordination and planning for a successful clear inherently causes friction in many casual play styles to consider it casual. Aligning schedules for that many successful duties with the same people each attempt puts quite a barrier for many you seem to dismiss or just ignore.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Laphael

That list is dishonest about the topic.

First lets remove all the non-battle-content because that content is for everyone, not just casuals.

So lets take a closer look at the "normal difficulty" side and the "higher difficulty" side
- MSQ = onetime for everyone low difficulty because everyone needs to be able to do it
- 1 dungeon per patch with 0 reason to play it more than 1 time
- 4 normal raids (loot: gear + minion)
--- with 4 savage raids (loot: higher gear + mount)
- alliance raid (loot: gear on par with tomestone... + minion)
--- chaotic (loot: 2 mounts and more)
- base OC (loot: glam, worthless stuff, 1 mount)
--- FT (loot: TT card, field notes, mount, sanguinite for +2 OC gear)
- normal trails (no loot)
--- extreme trails (loot: mount)
- treasure hunt low difficulty good loot
--- ultimate high difficulty - glowing weapons, glamplate stuff
--- Unreal (lots of mounts)


Raiders complained about criterion rewards, but take a look at all that casual-battle-content with close to no rewards at all.

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Remember that Yoshida said they understood there was a "rewards and incentive" problem with content like Criterion? Remember when he said that Dawntrail would have "about 50% more rewards" for its content? Pepperidge Farms (and I) remembers...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Uzephi

I never knew asking questions as being aggressive. Quite honest question. You claim it's casual, then please tell me how the higher floors are casual. If you can't 'complete' it in a casual sense, is it considered even partially casual? The basis around needing the coordination and planning for a successful clear inherently causes friction in many casual play styles to consider it casual. Aligning schedules for that many successful duties with the same people each attempt puts quite a barrier for many you seem to dismiss or just ignore.

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Do I need a specialized party to do floor 1 - 60 of PoTD? Nope. Same for HoH, and same for Orthos. The upper floors are hardcore but the content itself, 90% of it, is CASUAL.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Volgia

Do I need a specialized party to do floor 1 - 60 of PoTD? Nope. Same for HoH, and same for Orthos. The upper floors are hardcore but the content itself, 90% of it, is CASUAL.

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How is 60 floors of 200 90% please math correctly.

Edit: also, HoH and EO only up to floor 30 doesn't need a fixed party, so 30 floors of 100 also isn't 90%

Potd is actually more casual friendly since 101+ is just 'hard' version of 1-100. Casuals actually miss out on content with EO and HoH if they can't get a reliable group to clear it since every floor set is different in those.

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

Lord Almighty! Just stop!

The discussion is about the game only providing content to high-end raiders, not about difficulty....

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THIS ISNT THE CASE THOUGH, OC itself is very casual content even though forked is not (it's just under EX level). You got cosmic exploration. You get ocean fishing expansions and a new deep dungeon coming up. You get 12 normal raids, 3 alliance raids, like 12 dungeons, crafting and gathering activities, the hunt, fates, etc. The issue is that casual content is so unengaging sometimes that you don't consider it as content. Trust me, the game caters no more to raiders than it does to casuals, but it SUCKS at catering to either of them. Open your eyes. 7.3 is ALL casual content, literally nothing for raiders.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Volgia

But they haven't released "Nothing but raids", the only new raid thing they released was Chaotic. Everything else has been the same content patch release since Stormblood.

The problem isn't the lack of varied new content, the problem is the normal content has become dull and boring, they decimated most of the complex systems pre-Shadowbringers and now we're just on that late stage version of the game where no one is happy.

The game has also fostered a strong divide between casual/hardcore content. So if anything in normal mode gives you a bit of friction (STrayborough, M2N) people come here in tears asking why they don't toss that onto the hardcore pile, or wonder why no one is catering towards them specifically.

You accused me of arguing in bad faith and nitpicking so IDK if responding to you is productive, but this is my stance on the matter.

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People don't understand this and its baffling. Like, look at the patch notes, its MOSTLY casual content.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Uzephi

DDs casual? Please, do tell me the many people who easily clear the higher floors of any DD out there. The higher floors are called challenge floors for a reason. They're even adding a higher difficulty boss after clearing it to try and entice you to actually try DDs because I can tell you haven't touched any of the orbs solo by your posts. Should be easy for you to do? Why not do it to prove it's casual?

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DD is absolutely casual. People solo them all the time, with a group of 4 its not much more hard than a regular dungeon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Altina_Orion

DD is absolutely casual. People solo them all the time, with a group of 4 its not much more hard than a regular dungeon.

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As I've said in this thread: difficulty =/= casual. And if people solo these dungeons all the time, why are the solo titles rarer than most savage titles, heck, even the VC titles are less rare meaning more people have completed savage criterion dungeons than soloing deep dungeons.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Altina_Orion

THIS ISNT THE CASE THOUGH, OC itself is very casual content even though forked is not (it's just under EX level). You got cosmic exploration. You get ocean fishing expansions and a new deep dungeon coming up. You get 12 normal raids, 3 alliance raids, like 12 dungeons, crafting and gathering activities, the hunt, fates, etc. The issue is that casual content is so unengaging sometimes that you don't consider it as content. Trust me, the game caters no more to raiders than it does to casuals, but it SUCKS at catering to either of them. Open your eyes. 7.3 is ALL casual content, literally nothing for raiders.

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The problem is not necessarily that it "Caters exclusively" to raiders, so much as it "Prioritizes" them. Harvey Randall has mentioned this more than once in his articles on PC Gamer - the primary issue is that raid content is prioritized over content for casual/midcore players. He pointed out that almost all content with any teeth to it that has been released since DT launch has been raid-oriented. Specifically he criticized CSIII for delaying OC until a year into the expansion and prioritizing raid content that only a small portion of the community engages with over something that more people would interface with. (My personal opinion is that exploratory zone/relic step 1 should literally come with the expansion launch.)

I'll unironically agree with you that the game does actually suck at catering to EVERY type of player. And also that most casual-tier content is so boring and braindead that many people literally don't even consider it content. Personally, I yawn and roll my eyes at things like Beast Tribes, Limited Jobs, or Unreal, I couldn't care less. I don't consider those things to be content, they're so bland and uninteresting. We should be getting new things, not the same old same old regurgitated for the hundredth time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Altina_Orion

THIS ISNT THE CASE THOUGH, OC itself is very casual content even though forked is not (it's just under EX level). You got cosmic exploration. You get ocean fishing expansions and a new deep dungeon coming up. You get 12 normal raids, 3 alliance raids, like 12 dungeons, crafting and gathering activities, the hunt, fates, etc. The issue is that casual content is so unengaging sometimes that you don't consider it as content. Trust me, the game caters no more to raiders than it does to casuals, but it SUCKS at catering to either of them. Open your eyes. 7.3 is ALL casual content, literally nothing for raiders.

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Maybe this is the crux of the problem. So why is this the case?

I'd suggest it's because people play the game in so many different ways that SE has painted itself into a corner. They have grafted a combat-action raid simulator onto a story-driven MMO.

They have chosen a particular design philosophy for raids and dungeons that is unappealing to many. In order to give the less-skilled players more content, SE tries to herd them into raiding.

Players like me tell them they can't do this crossover content, it's too hard.

High-skilled players explain the problem is the game doesn't teach you how to PvE, and that the solution is to ramp up the MSQ difficulty so that less-skilled, babied players learn.

This is akin to having a student who is struggling with algebra, and "helping them learn" by asking them to solve partial differential equations. They don't learn, they quit math, in the same way less-skilled players are quitting the game because MSQ PvE has become too difficult for them.

Besides, the way to facilitate learning is to make the lessons interesting and accessible, not to use the same formula only harder.

Meanwhile, all this "casual" content you describe is mostly terrible. Cosmic Explo was the least engaging, most repetitive rubbish SE has put out in the Ishgard/Doma space, riddled with design flaws and exhibiting a total lack of imagination. But at least they got to double-dip their levequest code.

As to these 12 normal raids, again they are too difficult for many players. I understand this is completely incomprehensible to some of you. That does not prevent it from being true. I'm guessing if I went through the misery of M1N 20 times I might start to clear it without dying. Am I going to slow down players who always seem to be in a rush by doing that? No, of course not, even if I could spend more than 20 minutes dealing with the awful visual glare. I might if I could run it with NPCs and customize the battle FX.

The fighting we see in this and other threads between players with different interests does indeed indicate SE is no longer adequately catering to anyone. In this sense, it is a failed game.

Hi, in reality, I don't think this game is dying; I'd rather say it has reached the limit of reach devs can give regarding the same content development they have provided over the years.

What do I mean? Spoilers alert incoming as well.

I don't think the problem with the game is regarding casual or raiding content or between new or old veteran players.

The company is showing to put priority on development that provides quick profit instead of meaningful content, in my opinion.

Relaying a lot in gridding and less costly and meaningful content.

They are focusing on creating content that is focused on long periods of grinding time in order to retain the player base and, in that way, solidify their subscriptions. A simple and strategic point: right, we are an MMORPG game. But with less content that is worth doing than before.

(By the way, sorry for my English. I am actually from LATAM trying to play this game the right way when it is only supported for EU, USA, Japanese, and Australian audiences.) I don't know why LATAM is so forgotten by all game companies. Need a LATAM server as well (for we count).


I am a Final Fantasy fan. I am 32 years old. And it is obvious SE is focusing on doing more gacha-like mechanics inside their games these days than developing them better than before. An example of this is FFXIV Mobile, which, by the way, is looking better than the main game. Which is a problem for us definitively.

The FFXIV store received more development in this expansion than the game itself. I don't know if others have noticed that. First bad sign.

Hi, in reality, I don't think this game is dying; I'd rather say it has reached the limit of reach devs can give regarding the same content development they have provided over the years.

What do I mean? Spoilers alert incoming as well.

I don't think the problem with the game is regarding casual or raiding content or between new or old veteran players.

The company is showing to put priority on development that provides quick profit instead of meaningful content, in my opinion.

Relaying a lot in gridding and less costly and meaningful content.

They are focusing on creating content that is focused on long periods of grinding time in order to retain the player base and, in that way, solidify their subscriptions. A simple and strategic point: right, we are an MMORPG game. But with less content that is worth doing than before.

Secondly, Dawntrail Story is bad. Or at least very poorly written. WUK LAMAT is obviously a WOKE character. The dev team of this expansion made that clear by making everything revolve around here. She was a very badly written character; she could have been a better character. She was written as an ignorant princess that never left her castle. And then, suddenly, she knew how to communicate, how to act, and how to understand her people's culture as if out of thin air. I get it; they wanted to use the power of LOVE as a DISNEY WOKE CHARACTER. And it is obvious she was the main character for that. They created a bad character who had the chance to be better in concept. Look, DION from FFXVI was the woke character of this adult game. And he worked out because he was not defined by his preference or bad writing. He was one of the best-written characters with these characteristics that gave depth to his storyline. Exactly what WUK LAMAT needed. She could have been serious and fun at the same time. by learning her people's ways and showing leadership traits. The main expansion song is a DISNEY WOKE REFERENCE. The team that work on this was definitively with an agenda.

Third Krile Story. It was a bait for players to expect her to be the deep character in this expansion. Which again was not because of WUK LAMAT. She could have a second main story that intertwines with the rite of succession storyline as well. This could have opened a storyline with archaeology, cave exploring, and a trail reexploration regarding her parents footsteps. More dialogues with Gulool Ja Ja and an opportunity to have a better connection with her instead of summarizing everything by saying she is from the 9th and her parents left her to save her. And that is it. She could have a "Hey Arnold"-like story with her parents, as Arnold, the main character of this 90s series, had with his. (Only using this as a reference for better story writing). The scions should have more depth helping Krile, Wuk Lamat, and Koana. Estinien as a mercenary opening secondary quest options, trials, or hunts with him in Tural.

The fourth Sphene storyline should have been the second part of the Dawntrail story, and I have a very strong reason for it. First of all, as a follow-up to the Krile story.
And second, because in this storyline I can tell you here is the secret to help Garlemald be restored. (We haven't seen anything about it yet; maybe it was forgotten by the depths that were part of the story as well). Dawntrail had great content releases, great new in-game mechanics, and great things that were new to the game and greatly welcome. (UP Today there is no denying that). But the story of this expansion almost killed all this effort. Sorry, but it is the truth. This is not about killing Wuk Lamat. They can rewrite the story and make it better. The game already has all it needs to work again, and after that is fixed, the game can have new things added to it. Now this regarding the Dawntrail story and its failure through it.

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Originally Posted by Zackmag1993

Secondly, Dawntrail Story is bad. Or at least very poorly written. WUK LAMAT is obviously a WOKE character. The dev team of this expansion made that clear by making everything revolve around here. She was a very badly written character; she could have been a better character. She was written as an ignorant princess that never left her castle. And then, suddenly, she knew how to communicate, how to act, and how to understand her people's culture as if out of thin air. I get it; they wanted to use the power of LOVE as a DISNEY WOKE CHARACTER. And it is obvious she was the main character for that. They created a bad character who had the chance to be better in concept. Look, DION from FFXVI was the woke character of this adult game. And he worked out because he was not defined by his preference or bad writing. He was one of the best-written characters with these characteristics that gave depth to his storyline. Exactly what WUK LAMAT needed. She could have been serious and fun at the same time. by learning her people's ways and showing leadership traits. The main expansion song is a DISNEY WOKE REFERENCE. The team that work on this was definitively with an agenda.

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This is where half of forum members will quit reading, and the other half will like your post.

Regarding the game itself.

I think there are old features that need to be updated and remastered in this game for them to work again and provide content for people to do, because the majority also tend to leave content behind because it is no longer relevant. (Including myself). Alliances FC needs to have more presence in the game, especially through all the Garlemald war storyline until Endwalker. They are basically the base on which everything revolves regarding the war outside the divine aspect of the war between Hydaelyn, Zodiark, the Ascians, the Scions, and the WOL. Stormblood is the best example of this.
Stormblood needs a rework regarding that. The Gyr Abania section is not good enough; it lacked the content needed to make the area relevant. The Othard section is the best section of the EXP and the best in storytelling developed. Gyr Abania needs to have more warlike features add to it. Like War Fates, war-related bosses, and encounters. Please help us have more content in there instead of a desserted barren land.

To continue with Stormblood. Alah Migo should be a main city with the difference that we need to restore it exactly as the Doma Enclave. This opens the opportunity to have Alah Migo content with battle, crafting, and gathering missions and activities to do so. Maybe hunt for commerce activities with other cities to have embassies in the city to help restore it and have more Rabahn and Lyse presence as leaders in this development as well. Make Garlemald's presence in Othard and Gyr Abania more present and a new ambientation with war vibes. With that said, you can also make Eureka and Bozja Content have a level max reached at the moment you enter for new and old players to replay it and make them active again with improved drop rate percentages.

Make all raids of both contents accessible through party finder also. People will come back and see this as old content development and that you care to also make other content better time as well.