New Player Etiquette

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Originally Posted by syldon

I find the same. Some tanks take a lot of healing and others manage just with hots. However, I had one healer who had issues with something. He could not heal one pack at a time. Every time I looked there was no mana left. Do you slow down for people who clearly have issues, or do you plough on faster and make them work?

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Ask them why they're running so low on MP. Politely. Phrase it so it is not a criticism, just a question. Then go from there.

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Originally Posted by syldon

Then you are the one with the problem if you are in my run. You pull you keep it. Pulling in front of the tank just slows the run down even more as the tank has to use 2-3 GCDs to get those mobs back. I wont waste more than one attempt on anyone trolling me like that. I reported the last troll last night due their parting comments when he left. The rest of the group were not impressed by him/her. I am not a slow player by anyone's standards. Play how you want when you play solo, but when you are in a group then show some respect to the group.

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sorry i forgot how hard tanking in this game is that you struggle with a few extra mobs

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Originally Posted by theunhappypotato

sorry i forgot how hard tanking in this game is that you struggle with a few extra mobs

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Tanking isn't hard. It seems that playing with courtesy to others in the group is, for some. It is just a game, there are no real life consequences. So when someone is slow just give them the space they need. I am always happy to help someone diagnose their play if they wish.

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Originally Posted by BlisteringFrost

Ask them why they're running so low on MP. Politely. Phrase it so it is not a criticism, just a question. Then go from there.

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this guy was in a sub 50 levelling duty (lvl 30 I think). I asked him at the end if he had done his role quests, and he left. It wasn't gear as he had decent ilvl for the dungeon he was in. Whatever it was he had very, very low healing output. And as a sub 50 tank there is not a lot you can do except CDs to help them out. I ended up just pulling single packs for him, but the dps was so low that he was struggling at the end of each pull. Just one of those groups.

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Originally Posted by syldon

this guy was in a sub 50 levelling duty (lvl 30 I think). I asked him at the end if he had done his role quests, and he left. It wasn't gear as he had decent ilvl for the dungeon he was in. Whatever it was he had very, very low healing output. And as a sub 50 tank there is not a lot you can do except CDs to help them out. I ended up just pulling single packs for him, but the dps was so low that he was struggling at the end of each pull. Just one of those groups.

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It's very hard to tell why things went awry but I have also met a lot of healers stressing out. It's true that most start out thinking that everyone has to be at 100% at all times. I myself had that for a very long time.

But yeah, showing common courtesy to other players is the bare minimum people can do. It doesn't matter if the class is easy or hard, they are new or a vet. Just be a decent human being, and things will improve.

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

It's very hard to tell why things went awry but I have also met a lot of healers stressing out. It's true that most start out thinking that everyone has to be at 100% at all times. I myself had that for a very long time.

But yeah, showing common courtesy to other players is the bare minimum people can do. It doesn't matter if the class is easy or hard, they are new or a vet. Just be a decent human being, and things will improve.

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It's wild that common courtesy is a hot take for some. My friend had the worst anxiety as a healer and I mean bad, but because I then decided to tank for them and go at their pace, they learned the job and now play healer without any issue.

When I play tank, I will always be thinking of the healer. Because ultimately, how much they have to heal depends on my use of cooldowns and mitigation. If I pop everything on one pull, I can't expect to pull w2w with no mitigation the next round & expect to be okay. Warrior doesn't count lmao. It's all good and well to put majority "blame" on heals and tanks, but if your DPS are not pushing buttons, the mobs don't die and we eventually run out of cooldowns. Especially in lower level dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Nyastra

It's wild that common courtesy is a hot take for some. My friend had the worst anxiety as a healer and I mean bad, but because I then decided to tank for them and go at their pace, they learned the job and now play healer without any issue.

When I play tank, I will always be thinking of the healer. Because ultimately, how much they have to heal depends on my use of cooldowns and mitigation. If I pop everything on one pull, I can't expect to pull w2w with no mitigation the next round & expect to be okay. Warrior doesn't count lmao. It's all good and well to put majority "blame" on heals and tanks, but if your DPS are not pushing buttons, the mobs don't die and we eventually run out of cooldowns. Especially in lower level dungeons.

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Seeing it often happen on DPS wearing the Mentor Crown that they don't fully understand their job and are just wonky with their rotations.
Double so back then when they were Black Mages (prior their "rework") and still kept switching to Astral/Umbral with Transpose in Shadowbringer dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

Seeing it often happen on DPS wearing the Mentor Crown that they don't fully understand their job and are just wonky with their rotations.
Double so back then when they were Black Mages (prior their "rework") and still kept switching to Astral/Umbral with Transpose in Shadowbringer dungeons.

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Exactly. DPS don't get a free pass in this discussion. They too are responsible for how fast the mobs die which in turn saves the tank and healer some CDs to be able to do another wall pull. It's really a team effort as much as people want to make it out not to be. And I've had good tanks in low level dungeons! Because of them I was able to heal pulls I never even thought possible. Just put some dang effort and be nice, we all want to get out of this 58586840 run of Stone Vigil as fast as possible.

oh thank god someone brings up that topic. im so tired of people treating dps jobs as something without responsibility. and people qlways jumping to stuff like elitist and dps meter, even though dmg matters.

and also you are there as a group. some act as if dps jobs dont have anything to say in anything.

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Originally Posted by Asari5

oh thank god someone brings up that topic. im so tired of people treating dps jobs as something without responsibility. and people qlways jumping to stuff like elitist and dps meter, even though dmg matters.

and also you are there as a group. some act as if dps jobs dont have anything to say in anything.

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I honestly get it. Everyone wants to get out of the dungeon as fast as possible, because the vast majority of players don't get to play for 24 hours 7 days a week. I get maybe 2/3 hours a day, max, sometimes less. So when I say I REALLY want to get this Stone Vigil done, I really do. I use Stone Vigil as an example often because:

1. Tanks don't have a ton of mitigation at this level.
2. Healers don't have a bunch of easy press free heal buttons.
3. DPS have like, one AOE.
It is also the dungeon where people are most prone to wiping aside from Aurum Vale (we all know how that usually goes).

None of us want to spend 30 minutes of our playtime in this dungeon, or longer. Even single pulls in this dungeon goes faster than repeatedly bashing your head against a wall, wiping, because the tank has no mit, the healer has no free heal and has cast times, the dps faceroll their buttons while pulling extra mobs.

You don't even have to be the best DPS, Tank or Healer to get through this stuff, just gotta have some self awareness and decency that way we can *all* get out of there and go have a grand ol' time AFKing in Limsa.

Stone Vigil is an amusing example to use, like not in a smug way "Oh you are so wrong", but like I think this is a genuinely interesting quirk of it, the most optimal way to clear it is to do the first two pulls wtw, not because it is the best way to kill enemies, it is but for this method you aren't going to kill enemies, but because you can abuse a quirk of the game regarding boss rooms, whenever a boss is as much as tagged, this enables the shortcut at the start of the dungeon, so the idea is to run in, tag the boss while planning to die, and then, well, just wipe, then respawn and take the TP to the boss.

This can be done in the first two bosses, though not the third because there is a gate that requires mobs to be killed to get the key, but this can also be done in any dungeon where there is no barrier between the pulls and the boss, think the first room of Aurum Vale is too hard? just ignore it, smack the boss and accept your fate, a little death never killed anyone!

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

Stone Vigil is an amusing example to use, like not in a smug way "Oh you are so wrong", but like I think this is a genuinely interesting quirk of it, the most optimal way to clear it is to do the first two pulls wtw, not because it is the best way to kill enemies, it is but for this method you aren't going to kill enemies, but because you can abuse a quirk of the game regarding boss rooms, whenever a boss is as much as tagged, this enables the shortcut at the start of the dungeon, so the idea is to run in, tag the boss while planning to die, and then, well, just wipe, then respawn and take the TP to the boss.

This can be done in the first two bosses, though not the third because there is a gate that requires mobs to be killed to get the key, but this can also be done in any dungeon where there is no barrier between the pulls and the boss, think the first room of Aurum Vale is too hard? just ignore it, smack the boss and accept your fate, a little death never killed anyone!

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I totally forgot about that! Actually had a tank do this in Aurum Vale once or twice but never with Stone Vigil but suppose it does make sense. Mainly use Stone Vigil as an example due to constantly running it for leveling etc. vs Aurum Vale... because there's something in that places air or something.

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Originally Posted by Asari5

im so tired of people treating dps jobs as something without responsibility.

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lol if you treat anything in a video game as something with responsibilities

don't take the word "job" literally

if df/roulette people piss you off, take yourself out and never look at their direction ever again
worked for me

The problem is that new players are there for the first time doing their story run and everyone else queued up for a quick 10 minute roulette. It's just an issue caused by that design unfortuantely and yeah, I agree with you to respect new players and be more patient but a lot of people just don't. I only just did 7.3 today and the tank couldn't even wait for the last boss story cutscene likely because again, they don't care they just want their 10 minute expert roulette done asap. Sure I could have ran it with trusts but this is an mmo and I don't play it to play a solo game.

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Originally Posted by LukaRoselia

I only just did 7.3 today and the tank couldn't even wait for the last boss story cutscene likely because again, they don't care they just want their 10 minute expert roulette done asap.

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That seriously sucks. It annoys me so much when people can't be bothered to wait the 10 seconds it takes for the cutscene to come and go, and it makes a difference for the sprout...

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

This can be done in the first two bosses, though not the third because there is a gate that requires mobs to be killed to get the key

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Fun Fact: Although the final boss in Stone Vigil is locked behind a gate, the gate does not require any key nor mobs to be killed (in contrast Stone Vigil (Hard) does require), you can have one of the DPS run up and open the gate while the pull is ongoing, and then pull into the boss room, of course if the party agree to do so.

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

Stone Vigil is an amusing example to use, like not in a smug way "Oh you are so wrong", but like I think this is a genuinely interesting quirk of it, the most optimal way to clear it is to do the first two pulls wtw, not because it is the best way to kill enemies, it is but for this method you aren't going to kill enemies, but because you can abuse a quirk of the game regarding boss rooms, whenever a boss is as much as tagged, this enables the shortcut at the start of the dungeon, so the idea is to run in, tag the boss while planning to die, and then, well, just wipe, then respawn and take the TP to the boss.

This can be done in the first two bosses, though not the third because there is a gate that requires mobs to be killed to get the key, but this can also be done in any dungeon where there is no barrier between the pulls and the boss, think the first room of Aurum Vale is too hard? just ignore it, smack the boss and accept your fate, a little death never killed anyone!

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Sadly, does not sound fun at all.

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Originally Posted by Elephantality

Sadly, does not sound fun at all.

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Fortunately there is always an option to instead pull all the mobs into the boss rooms and defeat all of them, it would require all 4 players be well-geared but it is doable as long as everyone knows what they are doing.

I pull jack shit as DPS. 99% of my runs were everyone waiting for each other and have EVERYONE do their thing, including the tank pulling. You know, COMMON COURTESY!
People, don't let some egomanic distort your view. If in most cases the tank pulls, then that's what is happening and what's expected.
Don't let anyone push their playstyle as the only real style.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

I pull jack shit as DPS. 99% of my runs were everyone waiting for each other and have EVERYONE do their thing, including the tank pulling. You know, COMMON COURTESY!
People, don't let some egomanic distort your view. If in most cases the tank pulls, then that's what is happening and what's expected.
Don't let anyone push their playstyle as the only real style.

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It's apparently not as common to just be nice. I've been playing for 7 years, and every time I do run ahead of the tank (not to pull, but to guide them) I stop short of pulling aggro and, guess what, wait. To this day it has not killed me to go a little slower. But apparently it will harm the majority of players. I guess.

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Originally Posted by Nyastra

It's apparently not as common to just be nice. I've been playing for 7 years, and every time I do run ahead of the tank (not to pull, but to guide them) I stop short of pulling aggro and, guess what, wait. To this day it has not killed me to go a little slower. But apparently it will harm the majority of players. I guess.

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Yes, that's what I mean.
It baffles me that not being OPTIMAL ALL THE TIME is such a big no-no.

as easier soemthing gets as more do people expect others to play optimally.

its a result of monotone dungeon design, limited pulls, easy rotations, non existent aggro management and an over the top accessibility to heals and mitigations.

not saying this is good or bad but its just how quite a few humans are

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Originally Posted by TBerry

Yes, that's what I mean.
It baffles me that not being OPTIMAL ALL THE TIME is such a big no-no.

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Because half the player base lives this game more than they do real life, I too would like to not have spent 30 minutes in the latest Trial, but alas, I did. And my life wasn't all that much different. If the game isn't fun then stop playing? Why does this have to be a second job? I don't get it. So stupid. I had so many patient people that guided me when I started, who allowed me to learn and make mistakes, what happened to that? Now it's just how dare you not know how to play the game OPTIMALLY from day 1.

And I get it, my game time is limited because of my IRL obligations, I'm lucky if I get two hours of game time a night. But I'm not taking away the learning experience from someone else just because I have ants and can't wait 5 extra minutes.

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Originally Posted by Nyastra

Because half the player base lives this game more than they do real life, I too would like to not have spent 30 minutes in the latest Trial, but alas, I did. And my life wasn't all that much different. If the game isn't fun then stop playing? Why does this have to be a second job? I don't get it. So stupid. I had so many patient people that guided me when I started, who allowed me to learn and make mistakes, what happened to that? Now it's just how dare you not know how to play the game OPTIMALLY from day 1.

And I get it, my game time is limited because of my IRL obligations, I'm lucky if I get two hours of game time a night. But I'm not taking away the learning experience from someone else just because I have ants and can't wait 5 extra minutes.

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30 minutes sucks. But, like, you have good days and bad days.
You are glad it's over, and you move on. Sometimes playing with randos sucks, sometimes it's great.

I did Badam's Meddle the other day. The tank had to pull small because undergeared. Healer said it's fine, Tank sets the pace. We had a smooth run nonetheless, except failing at the 2nd trial on the second boss because we collectively derped.

Nope. Never going to understand the mindset of speed running everything.

Dawg. You're playing a video game. And a video game that isn't even built with it in mind as a thing. Like Metroid, or Hollow Knight. Why even play if your goal is to stop doing anything as soon as possible? You're literally playing a video game to waste your time. Crying "my time is wasted if I don't do this faster!" is like putting clown make up on yourself and saying you're the God Emperor of Humanity.

If I wanna speed run I'ma just boot up Metroid Dread. Or git gud at Hollow Knight so I can speed-run that. I'm not on an MMO to put it back down as fast as possible, I'm there to chew the fat.

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Originally Posted by BlisteringFrost

Nope. Never going to understand the mindset of speed running everything.

Dawg. You're playing a video game. And a video game that isn't even built with it in mind as a thing. Like Metroid, or Hollow Knight. Why even play if your goal is to stop doing anything as soon as possible? You're literally playing a video game to waste your time. Crying "my time is wasted if I don't do this faster!" is like putting clown make up on yourself and saying you're the God Emperor of Humanity.

If I wanna speed run I'ma just boot up Metroid Dread. Or git gud at Hollow Knight so I can speed-run that. I'm not on an MMO to put it back down as fast as possible, I'm there to chew the fat.

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That's a pretty garbage take, ngl. When you do the same dungeon for the 150th time, of course you want to get it done as fast as possible. If at 7.4, devs put up a dungeon where you have to battle groups of mobs for a whole hour before gaining access to the last boss, I'm pretty sure you - and pretty much everyone - won't like that. Yet you're playing a videogame to waste time, isn't it ? Why would you complain ?

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Originally Posted by Yeonhee

That's a pretty garbage take, ngl. When you do the same dungeon for the 150th time, of course you want to get it done as fast as possible. If at 7.4, devs put up a dungeon where you have to battle groups of mobs for a whole hour before gaining access to the last boss, I'm pretty sure you - and pretty much everyone - won't like that. Yet you're playing a videogame to waste time, isn't it ? Why would you complain ?

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I just tune it out. If I don't wanna do Alliance Roulette. Then I choose to not do it.

It's not that deep.

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Originally Posted by BlisteringFrost

I just tune it out. If I don't wanna do Alliance Roulette. Then I choose to not do it.

It's not that deep.

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Blocking yourself to the most profitable roulette because devs decided to do something stupid isn't really the answer here. Nonetheless, dungeons are designed to be speedrunned. SE gave up a while ago about making dungeon actually different and "kinda" interesting. 95% dungeons after ARR are pretty much two groups of mobs > wall > two groups of mobs > wall > boss x3. Even the bosses mechanics go from laughable to non-existant (Hello Endwalker). You cannot really blame players for wanting to get it done fast when even the devs gave up on dungeons and design them to be speedrunned.

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Originally Posted by Yeonhee

Blocking yourself to the most profitable roulette because devs decided to do something stupid isn't really the answer here. Nonetheless, dungeons are designed to be speedrunned. SE gave up a while ago about making dungeon actually different and "kinda" interesting. 95% dungeons after ARR are pretty much two groups of mobs > wall > two groups of mobs > wall > boss x3. Even the bosses mechanics go from laughable to non-existant (Hello Endwalker). You cannot really blame players for wanting to get it done fast when even the devs gave up on dungeons and design them to be speedrunned.

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It's not blocking myself. That assumes I'm never going to touch it again. I just don't wanna touch it today (for example). So I won't do it.

If I don't wanna play FFXIV I won't login. This shouldn't be a foreign concept lol. Calling the content "most profitable" and insisting you get it done as fast as possible means you've gas lit yourself into treating the game as a job. Most likely without even realizing it. Why work a job you're not getting paid for? That's just silly.

About "speedrunning everything", I actually find doing things in an efficient and expedient manner is fun in itself, I actually love the 2nd boss from Meso specifically because of this, you are, intentionally or not, racing the other players, and I feel good about myself when I kill my Warden first.

Honestly "if the game isn't built for speed, you shouldn't try to speed it" is sincerely a very pathetic take, and incredibly limiting to what games can be as an experience.

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

Honestly "if the game isn't built for speed, you shouldn't try to speed it" is sincerely a very pathetic take, and incredibly limiting to what games can be as an experience.

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I'd also argue it is built for speed, just in a very restricted way because the devs are incredibly heavy handed with how they want you to do things.
The ultimate factor to beat in even the highest content is the enrage timer, be too slow in killing the boss and no matter how well you do mechanics you will still die.

Now why do we actually do wall-to-wall pulls? Yeah sure, it's because it makes the dungeon go faster. But why?
A quick look at our AoE skills shows that at a certain amount of enemies (this can vary from job to job and ability to ability) they significantly outscale the potency of our single-target skills.
And since you can only execute 1 Weaponskill/Spell per 2.5 seconds (baseline) and 1 oGCD per 0.6 seconds you obviously want to pick the strongest skill at every opportunity. If my only options are "do less damage" or "do more damage" why would I purposely choose the worse option?

Dungeons in this game are so basic that navigation isn't a factor, survival might as well not be one, neither is synergy between enemies, the only remaining factor is the time limit.
Now because this is content that is supposed to be beaten by everyone the timer is extremely generous, but the principle is pretty much the same, you want to do as much damage as possible every 2.5 seconds to ensure you beat it, since enemies need to die for you to progress.
Which logically leads to pulling as much as you can to make your AoE skills deal their maximum potency and ultimately make things die faster than they ever could by just doing single-target attacks.

If we reduced the dungeon timer from 90 minutes down to 15 minutes it would immediately go from "speedrunning" to "that's just what you do to beat the dungeon", and that's pretty much how all battle content functions the further you move up.