So how is everyone feeling about Occult Crescent now that it’s been a few days?

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

Tanks just end up as kings

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Wouldn't call someone who can not do mechanics a king, rather playing the game on "very easy mode". This is the job you pick when you don't actually want to play the game. The real magick happens when tanks manage to die regardless, that's pretty funny.

I don’t hate it like I did eureka I just don’t enjoy it like I didn’t enjoy bozja

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

As much as I like customization, I unfortunately can see why it never lasts for long in MMOs because people can and will optimize the hell out of such systems and only insist on using the meta choices. It only gets worse if you're expected to use BiS for any group content and to take anything else is to be accused of griefing and getting kicked.

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The way MMOs and multiplayer games on the whole get around this is by introducing content where established metas are less relevant. Which is supposed to be among XIV's selling points. Nobody really cares about metas beyond Savage and Ultimate. Occult Crescent is the perfect types of content to just let plays go nuts. Instead, XIV had to keep things incredibly safe because they're seemingly terrified of doing anything outside the box.

Occult Crescent is very pretty but it wears itself out way too fast. The core gameplay loop is way too fast paced and homogeneous. You do boss FATEs that die in 10 seconds and then go fight a boss in a CE every 10 or so minutes, repeat. The only real downtime is when you are sitting doing nothing in the CE circle. Also they played it way too safe with the CEs, so none of them stand out. None of them have stacks, flares, or towers, or any commonplace mechanics to shake up the gameplay. Southern Front CEs weren't revolutionary either but they at least got creative with how telegraphing was presented and included niche mechanics occasionally. Southern Front also had the full variety of FATEs, multiple FATEs up at once, and CLL.

I'm not entirely sold on the phantom job system when compared to remembrances/logograms. My issue is with the phantom mastery system and how it disincentivizes you from playing the phantom job you actually want to. On paper making players experience each individual job sounds okay, but some of these phantom jobs are very boring and uninteresting, and it feels like I'm just waiting to be able to play a fun phantom job again while leveling them.

I really hope that they listen to feedback because I want this content to be good, but this really doesn't live up to Eureka or Bozja at all to me.

its awful garbage. its a zone of busywork with no real fun. the phantom jobs are unbalanced crap because cannoner is op for farming. refresh your buffs every 30 minutes is all some of them is good for.

I went there. Did the introduction quest. You are the chosen one. Here's Gerolt with the weapon grind quests. Here's the progression stuff. Here's a quest to kill 3 mobs. It was fun right? (It wasn't) Now do it a million more times. Here's the currency. Here's the vendor.

I cant with these formulaic grind fests. I just can't do this shit.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

The way MMOs and multiplayer games on the whole get around this is by introducing content where established metas are less relevant. Which is supposed to be among XIV's selling points. Nobody really cares about metas beyond Savage and Ultimate. Occult Crescent is the perfect types of content to just let plays go nuts. Instead, XIV had to keep things incredibly safe because they're seemingly terrified of doing anything outside the box.

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This is a great point and I want to double down on it. FFXI did this. Diablo 2 did this. WOW did this. OSRS did this. SO MANY GAMES DO THIS, and it makes getting gear feel worth while when you try to prep for certain fights. It wasn't always necessary but it was a way for the devs to actively make the communities think differently about their play styles with the same class builds, or different class options. This person says they have played "So many MMO's" yet I would have to assume they must have all been in the last 5-8 years because this is just an excuses used over and over again so development teams could streamline content and lower the cost to run their projects. I mean ffs Yoshi P even admitted this when questioned about the jobs and dungeons design. He literally says that the ONLY reason we have 3 trash, 3 bosses, and a long ass hallway is because its the easiest way to streamline design while keeping the ultra casuals JUST happy enough.

I used to think the doomers back in the day were going overboard in their sentiments on where MMO game design was going but my god if they weren't spot on with how things turned out.

It's really gotten monotonous fast. There's no Pazuzu or CLL to break up the tedium. I don't even see people joke about doing forked tower anymore when the red weather happens. Nobody cares about it so it's functionally nonexistent. Just spam the same 10 fates over and over forever.

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Originally Posted by Gurgeh

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1234567890

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

It's really gotten monotonous fast. There's no Pazuzu or CLL to break up the tedium. I don't even see people joke about doing forked tower anymore when the red weather happens. Nobody cares about it so it's functionally nonexistent. Just spam the same 10 fates over and over forever.

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F***ed tower is more proper name for it.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

My experience with FF14's community as a whole is that its NOT actually as welcoming and forgiving as people claim it to be, especially with the constant blaming on me for why the game is in the state that its in because "eww, casuals" and it's one of the big reasons I've quit. (The other two being an ironic lack of casual content and apathetic developers.)

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But how many of those were actually ingame?
This forum here is not a healthy place to be and imo ingame most people either ignore you or are more than happy to just chat or give help.
The amount of help I usually see in field content is honestly staggering.
Sure this game is definitely not the paradise of social life some want to sell it as but it truly is really high up.
And like I said most people really don’t care if you don’t play optimal.
I really don’t agree with the notion that this game is a toxic wasteland.
I have seen by far more helpful people than not.

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Originally Posted by itachi-otsutsuki

I mean you wanna see toxic, try engage with forked tower. The entire content is gatekept behind discord grou content squatters that will kick you or grief you if you dare to enter their raid unschedueled. Admittedly it's SE encouraged toxicity but even so. You will not see the same toxicity in casual content like ce's and fates so if you where only engaging with that yeah it doesn't look as bad.

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At this point it’s clear that you have a disdain for people using Discord and see them as lesser.
I write this the last time and others have also already replied to you in your last message.
The people in Discord groups are normal players who try to give people a clear. Without them BA would have been dead.
They are full of players giving tips and answering questions and just trying to work around this stupid tower entry system.
I won’t say more regarding this topic.

I AM engaging in that content and I AM in such a Discord.
I won’t engage any more with someone who calls people names just because they use Discord.

It's not good at all.

I resubbed after months just for this content, expecting an improved Bozja, but not only did I get a worse Bozja, I got a worse Eureka as well.

I mean you wanna see toxic, try engage with forked tower. The entire content is gatekept behind discord group content squatters that will kick you or grief you if you dare to enter their raid unschedueled. Admittedly it's SE encouraged toxicity but even so. You will not see the same toxicity in casual content like ce's and fates so if you where only engaging with that yeah it doesn't look as bad.

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

But how many of those were actually ingame?
This forum here is not a healthy place to be and imo ingame most people either ignore you or are more than happy to just chat or give help.
The amount of help I usually see in field content is honestly staggering.
Sure this game is definitely not the paradise of social life some want to sell it as but it truly is really high up.
And like I said most people really don’t care if you don’t play optimal.
I really don’t agree with the notion that this game is a toxic wasteland.
I have seen by far more helpful people than not.

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I played for pretty much five years now. NA and EU heavily.
'Compared' to how the community 'used' to be it is a toxic wasteland.
I remember when 'every' instance most players said 'hi' at the start. Now it's mostly just me. Sure in an 8 man there is always someone, but 1-2/7 is not good.
I remember if you did chat in dungeon you'd typically get engagement from 2/3 others in there with you. Now it's mostly just silence.
I remember the old Prae and Castrum would always strike up a conversation between vets, if you felt like filling the time. Now, just silence.
The only people left are the add-on RPers playing a totally different game.
And the raiders, playing a totally different game, where their real friends, the ones they meet their static for several hours 3-4 times a week , who are who they want to sprint all msq normal with, get ex done, conquer chaotic, get savage done, and onto ultimate, are in a different discord to the one your in for your FC. That's where they chat about the game. Your FC community is a wasteland. (I've tried several since moving to light). Raiding communities, or just dead. The odd sprout couple doing MSQ. But they never interact much with other players. They used to, but now, they are pretty much the only sprouts as far as they are aware probably. They are not seeing discord interactions that they can relate to.

No one chats in game any more. I'm still in several communities. No one is raving about the actual game or sharing their uncontainable excitement about anything. A lot of people want to know they are not alone in being unhappy with the game. When they do there is always that one person and their bully croney mate waiting to tell them to STFU and unsub. Lately they will also be a high end player but that wasn't the case a few months back.

In OC, no-one is saying 'hi' when you join the party.
You all know it's true.
Mostly litterally noone in OC is noticing it stopping to help a player who's being ambushed on this way to an aeterite.
None one is stopping to charge to healer to res a player 'before' engaging in a fate.
The other day I did that, and the player clearly so surprised and thankful, that I was suprised. Clearly they were expecting to just have to watch everyone else play from the floor.

Compared to what it once was the game is a total wasteland. Of interactions that do still occur, far more of them are a bit toxic.

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Originally Posted by Gurgeh

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You literally proofed what I have written, that most players don’t really care.
Being silent or not saying hello is also not toxic, like come on.

Your OC example is also… I don’t even know what to say.
Players stop all the time to help others.
Someone posts a “rez please” and healers will run through the entire map to help them or mass raise after a CE and I have lots and lots of casual conversations there.

Your examples absolutely do not match what I have or see in streams of others.
I am not saying you are lying but… dude, just because someone doesn’t say hello, doesn’t mean they are toxic.

I honestly have no idea what to write here anymore.
If you guys think a missing hello or silence is toxic or that people are “squatters” or “elitist” because they use Discord… then I think you might be the problem or you don’t know what toxic in an online community even means.

With that I leave this discussion because it will lead nowhere.

Im trying to clear Forked Tower in a discord, we are at Marble Dragon and while it's really fun, people is nice and callouts are good, getting home from work and waste 1 entire hour between waiting to fill the 6 alliances and the tower to spawn is really killing my will to clear this. We made groups at 19:00ST and started the first fight at 21:00ST. Then it's another hour to get to Dragon and when we wipe I can't do another run cause it will take minimum 1 hour more and I have work in the morning. So Im working in the morning and waiting to start a run at night and im not seeing it worth the effort. I wish it could be faster to start FT, I love doing the fights, but this is just bad game design imho

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

You literally proofed what I have written, that most players don’t really care.
Being silent or not saying hello is also not toxic, like come on.

Your OC example is also… I don’t even know what to say.
Players stop all the time to help others.
Someone posts a “rez please” and healers will run through the entire map to help them or mass raise after a CE and I have lots and lots of casual conversations there.

Your examples absolutely do not match what I have or see in streams of others.
I am not saying you are lying but… dude, just because someone doesn’t say hello, doesn’t mean they are toxic.

I honestly have no idea what to write here anymore.
If you guys think a missing hello or silence is toxic or that people are “squatters” or “elitist” because they use Discord… then I think you might be the problem or you don’t know what toxic in an online community even means.

With that I leave this discussion because it will lead nowhere.

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You're replying to someone that argued there needed to be a "final solution" to addon users because of "toxic" hardcore players. He's either a very dedicated troll or somewhat unhinged.

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

You literally proofed what I have written, that most players don’t really care.
Being silent or not saying hello is also not toxic, like come on.

Your OC example is also… I don’t even know what to say.
Players stop all the time to help others.
Someone posts a “rez please” and healers will run through the entire map to help them or mass raise after a CE and I have lots and lots of casual conversations there.

Your examples absolutely do not match what I have or see in streams of others.
I am not saying you are lying but… dude, just because someone doesn’t say hello, doesn’t mean they are toxic.

I honestly have no idea what to write here anymore.
If you guys think a missing hello or silence is toxic or that people are “squatters” or “elitist” because they use Discord… then I think you might be the problem or you don’t know what toxic in an online community even means.

With that I leave this discussion because it will lead nowhere.

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Not what it was though not nearly. To me it's a wasteland. Maybe not toxic but, more toxic than it used to be. Wasteland.
Yes someone out of 70 people go to do a res, but I regard that as setting the bar pretty low.
I agree you are not saying I'm lying, but it's a wasteland, and while not 'very' toxic far 'more' toxic then it 'used to' be.
Being silent, being passive, does 'not' qualify as friendly.
It is a good fit for 'wasteland' though.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

You're replying to someone that argued there needed to be a "final solution" to addon users because of "toxic" hardcore players. He's either a very dedicated troll or somewhat unhinged.

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Originally Posted by Gurgeh

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Here is that post of mine... I'll go bump it for yours and the add ons dev communities benefit.

It was a final solution to us Progliar/casual problems, not the high-end.

I'm not someone who believes that the whole world has suddenly turned autistic, and completely lost the ability to recognise irony from context, and I have no reason to think that is the case from you, but I do believe you believe your take on that post of mine.

Yes, my suggestion was "unhinged". It was utterly, completely, ludicrous. Totally unimplimentable and would be caustically hostile to what remains of the player population at large.
But the point was that things have now already got so out of hand that it's beyond correcting except in the 'doubtfully' viably long term.
And if that is not the case already, then SE needs to back CB3 (which i think is what is not going on behind the scenes) and they need to act fast. Or the only effective solution, will be the unthinkable solutions, and they are unthinkable.
I just saw my first genuine suggestion the other day, in an RP group (that hardly mentions the game much except in passing) that anticheat was now inevitable to curb addons. And these are not people who tolerate interference in their OSes.

But make this about me if you want. All the time this game slips further into unthinkable, (impossible) territory, while I and others move on.
I came back to keep friends company. 1 never did despite being actively subbed, the other left faster than am. Oh and these were very mild dedicated RPG players in their time. Real credits to old school 'caring' community. I doubt we'll be back for OC round 2. As far as I am concerned I can now never complete OC round 1, and i am a bit of completionist. It's why it took me 3+ years to reach EW.
But make it all about me. Fine.

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Originally Posted by Gurgeh

Not what it was though not nearly. To me it's a wasteland. Maybe not toxic but, more toxic than it used to be. Wasteland.
Yes someone out of 70 people go to do a res, but I regard that as setting the bar pretty low.
I agree you are not saying I'm lying, but it's a wasteland, and while not 'very' toxic far 'more' toxic then it 'used to' be.
Being silent, being passive, does 'not' qualify as friendly.
It is a good fit for 'wasteland' though.

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1/70 is completely underplaying what is actually happening.
First only a few are on healer.
Not everyone needs to run to raise one person.
I often see more than one running towards that person or people asking if they still need a raise.
The raising of dead people in field content is really the worst example there is and I don’t agree the notion of measuring toxity there with the amount of people raising.

That and your second part is just “searching for misery”.
With all due respect Gurgeh but you are a person I would really give the honest suggestion of stepping away from the forum a bit and see at the positive things in life and in this game.
Yes, toxic people exist absolutely and not only a few but the good people do outweigh t the bad apples by far in this game and in others.

But this is really my last take on this topic. This doesn’t lead anywhere.
If you want to believe this game is such a toxic ground then so that but let me just say this:
If you expect negative things behind every corner you will definitely find it.

Edit:
Your Zepla take is also… strange.
Are you truly comparing yourself to her?

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Originally Posted by Daralii

You're replying to someone that argued there needed to be a "final solution" to addon users because of "toxic" hardcore players. He's either a very dedicated troll or somewhat unhinged.

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I really hope you are wrong…
I think you are right.

Anyone seen Xepla?
Of course it's well known she hates this game, and has absolutely no emotional investment in hoping it does well.

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

1/70 is completely underplaying what is actually happening.
First only a few are on healer.
Not everyone needs to run to raise one person.
I often see more than one running towards that person or people asking if they still need a raise.
The raising of dead people in field content is really the worst example there is and I don’t agree the notion of measuring toxity there with the amount of people raising.

That and your second part is just “searching for misery”.
With all due respect Gurgeh but you are a person I would really give the honest suggestion of stepping away from the forum a bit and see at the positive things in life and in this game.
Yes, toxic people exist absolutely and not only a few but the good people do outweigh t the bad apples by far in this game and in others.

But this is really my last take on this topic. This doesn’t lead anywhere.
If you want to believe this game is such a toxic ground then so that but let me just say this:
If you expect negative things behind every corner you will definitely find it.


I really hope you are wrong…

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I'm just enough not an idiot, to be unable to avoid the truth of your advice.
I spend more time in the forums.
It's because while I recognise irony, I have enough hope for people to assume they are not all trolling me. But that will be the case sometimes. Like could be with Daralli.
Who can tell.
None can tell if I'm trolling, and sometimes I am being outrageous for effect. I can't tell if they are trolling.

market board prices for new stuff for OC are actually going up not down its hilarious.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

Speaking of Role Actions... Square-Enix can't even get those right "at base" considering the large amount of useless ones that ranged DPS alone ended up with. Should I really expect them to come up with a talent system that's going to make the Grazes, for example, into something worthwhile?

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The grazes and other similar "useless" role actions are extremely useful in content that does make use of them, notably deep dungeons, but ironically, in Eureka as well (couldn't mound until max level, mobs would aggro and follow you to narnia so having tools to shake them off was the difference between life and death).
The last time standard pve actually made use of Heavy was in Coils with the Renauds in ARR. And then they stopped bothering with crowd control altogether, and io and behold, made sure to make the remaining tools like Fluid Aura on WHM or point blank on MCH obnoxious af in dungeons until people clamored for them to be deleted, and made sure to keep binds like AST Stella, SMN Tri-Bind or RDM Tether in spite of them never being used and ensuring players would complain about them not removing those "useless garbage spells" when new expansions came out. And guess what, they were probably very happy to have players clamor for their removal so they'd not have to bother with crowd control ever anymore, and just kept some of it in role actions for non standard pve content because they decided since long that the pve they wanted wasn't about playing a RPG but dancing to a partition.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

This is all still reliant on the developers creating a biome with sustainability, and a playerbase that allows smaller/lesser life to flourish instead of immediately mauling it, and that just isn't something I really personally trust that FF14 can do. Was there not a cross-skill system in the past even? Whose to blame for that getting axed? The developers for not improving choices, or players for trivializing the process?

Ah... wait, I bet it was the changes to boss encounters, wasn't it? Can't have people free-styling during the choreographed dance number and whatnot.

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Cross class was somewhat basic but worked actually decently, but mostly in Stormblood where you could choose which of the cross class abilities available to your job you wanted. It was already consolidated under the "role action" system, but you couldn't have access to all of them, a bit like what multiple iterations of Frontline pvp have done in the past and do today. I think you could only pick 3 of them out of 5-6.
In HW it was a hot mess and still categorized under the cross class system since what you had access to was just some eligible abilities from the 2 "adjacent" jobs to your job, for instance a Paladin could raise since you could technically add Raise as a cross class action from WHM which was one of the two cross classes for the job, which is something that was could be pretty interesting if just for that example. The main issue is that it required people to level those cross class jobs to a level high enough to unlock those abilities before being able to use them, which had pros and cons.
Either way it was funny to see people not always having the exact same toolkit between two of the same jobs. Raising/Esuna paladins, Raging Strikes Black Mages and Machinists, but also abilities like Second Wind for example that was a MNK skill that could cross class only into DRG, BRD and NIN, or Bloodbath from WAR crossclassing into the two other tanks as well as MNK and DRG.
I think HW and SB could have merged this system even further by using HW's pollination system and restricting the amount of cross classes you could pick to make meaningful choices. Some of them like raise were meta, but a lot were actually just different flavours of utility or comfort.

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Originally Posted by Astronema

market board prices for new stuff for OC are actually going up not down its hilarious.

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Mostly because player count is down during DT already, and people are leaving the content already, meaning less people going in to grab stuff.

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

Even if you are frugal with your silver, 200 CE is not enough for just the gear and its upgrades.

Each gear piece is 4,000 apiece, so 20,000 for a single kind of job (tank/healer/melee dps/etc).
The upgrade material in silver is 1,600 apiece, but three are required for an upgrade so, 4,800.
Upgrading all five gear pieces to +1 requires a total of 15 of the silver currency upgrade material, so that is 24,000.

Each critical engagement gives 200 silver for completion, so doing 200 of them is 40,000 silver, meaning your short 4,000.

But that isn't all. Lets say you want to actually move your mount faster around the map so you can quickly get from place to place, that is another 3,000 silver.
Then you learn chemist is desired for Forked Tower because of its rez and elixir, that is another 1,000 silver.
Likewise for gold farming, you learn there is demand for cannoneers who are at least level 5, so another 1,000 silver spent.
Might as well pick up time mage at that point just because it also contributes to your overall freelancer level, so another 1,000 silver spent.

Alright you gotten all of this, and you want to do the fork tower, that is another 600 silver just to get a potential spot for one run of it with a cipher. But you also want to do it with your buddies, so you need to get more ciphers as the more you give the more weighted your spot will be, so lets say you farmed and now have a total of 5 ciphers, meaning that is 3,000 silver in price or 15 CEs. As ciphers contribute to a bidding war process to keep your spot and not get ejected.

Meaning 240 critical engagements done. Potentially more if you wanted to do additional runs in order to get your one set of gear you bought to +2, meaning getting much more ciphers to guarantee your spot.

Then lets say for whatever reason, after all of that, you want to get set of gear for each kind of dps and for healer and for tank. Well knowing what we know and not factoring in all the other stuff, and assuming just trying to get to +2, no extra runs of fork tower, the collective total would be another 264,000 silver. So another 1320 critical engagements. And god help you if you actually want to upgrade each of those to +2.

As for the gold, yeah its about ~2000 enemies. Though if you wanted each kind of gear and upgrading those, thats more like farming an amount of enemies in the five digits.

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All of this wouldn't be so bad if I could level my actual Jobs while doing this. The decision to not let level 90 or 91's into OC is just dumb and the reasoning behind it was idiotic "We didn't want another Bozja/Zadnor leveling situation" ....my brother in Hydaelyn you literally control the EXP values for the game. At any point in time they could've increased the EXP for open world FATEs to match Zadnor, or decreased their spawn timer, or literally anything than what they did, which was nothing.

The map is nice and the I enjoy the fights, as well as the versatility that comes with the subjobs, letting you have a bit more fun with the standard systems in play, but otherwise, its alright, I enjoy poking my head in and helping new players get their bearings on the content. Haven't tried Forked Tower yet.

The real grind seems to be gold farming, which can get you some nifty stuff, although funnily enough, most of the stuff you can get just makes you stronger in Occult.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

No, I'm done pretending that the developers or playerbase wants me here, and I've accepted that I'm just not good enough for Final Fantasy 14.

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I wouldn't presume to liken you to me specifically, but irrespective, it's far from just you.
However, most people who feel similarly to you don't care enough to stick around long enough to be heard very much.
Especially, not in the face of inevitable personal criticisms. I'm pretty confident also that not being wanted in the forums isn't in the least bit where the feeling of 'not being wanted' has come from. In fact, you basically said as much.
I also know that you wouldn't have bothered if you didn't care at some level.

I suspect there is a tragedy here though, which is that while many of the frankly hurt and excluded casuals did genuinely care about the game, most of the hardcore high end never really did and don't.
They are in their static bubbles, topped up from recruitment discords, chosen by ff logs. They appreciate the MSQ a bit maybe, but by and large they race through it.
They don't want to have to poke their heads up and interact with rest of the player base (proven fact) in game, unless it's filtered to meet their approval.
They want their fun, for as long as possible, their way, on their terms
If FFXIV can't exist to serve them on their terms, then there is no point in XIV existing. The better it servers those terms, the better.
And once that dries up they already know they will very happily move over to guild wars or whatever without their hearts skipping a beat.
"I'm alright Jack"

Your not alone. But by nature of the problem, your doomed to always be the minority, as the like minded leave.
You are paying for this service.
The have created a player experience that willfully encouraged you to become invested.
Then it not only pulled the rug out from underneath you at end game, it's spent since the start of Endwalker rubbing salt in your wounds.
It has got worse. The community has got worse. And only the Devs and the game can have enough 'coordinated' 'power' to fix it.
Either they don't want you. Or they are incompetent beyond all realistic hope. And in such neglect they have egged the player base on every step of the way.
"Play other games" (it's only a small sin, but it's a great short hand for so very much)

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Originally Posted by Valence

Cross class was somewhat basic but worked actually decently, but mostly in Stormblood where you could choose which of the cross class abilities available to your job you wanted. It was already consolidated under the "role action" system, but you couldn't have access to all of them, a bit like what multiple iterations of Frontline pvp have done in the past and do today. I think you could only pick 3 of them out of 5-6.
In HW it was a hot mess and still categorized under the cross class system since what you had access to was just some eligible abilities from the 2 "adjacent" jobs to your job, for instance a Paladin could raise since you could technically add Raise as a cross class action from WHM which was one of the two cross classes for the job, which is something that was could be pretty interesting if just for that example. The main issue is that it required people to level those cross class jobs to a level high enough to unlock those abilities before being able to use them, which had pros and cons.
Either way it was funny to see people not always having the exact same toolkit between two of the same jobs. Raising/Esuna paladins, Raging Strikes Black Mages and Machinists, but also abilities like Second Wind for example that was a MNK skill that could cross class only into DRG, BRD and NIN, or Bloodbath from WAR crossclassing into the two other tanks as well as MNK and DRG.
I think HW and SB could have merged this system even further by using HW's pollination system and restricting the amount of cross classes you could pick to make meaningful choices. Some of them like raise were meta, but a lot were actually just different flavours of utility or comfort.

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The problem with the role action system was they mostly just took abilities we already had and locked them away in a system where you could only pick 5, and some of them felt like they were mandatory, so it never felt like customization. Similarly, the cross-class system before that had "must have" abilities and then a bunch of fluff you could pick if you wanted that never really made much difference. And you had to level the jobs to have access to the abilities, so if you wanted to be a good tank or a good healer you had to level multiple classes. And before that you were directly required to level multiple classes, the job unlock quests originally had requirements like Paladin needed you to be gladiator 30 and conjurer 15 or something. But people didn't like being "forced" to level another class if they just wanted to be a tank.

And if we go all the way back to early 1.0, the game used to be entirely cross-class. Every class was basically freelancer, you could assign pretty much any ability you had learned with any other class. You had set points you were limited by similar to the Blue Mage job in FFXI so you couldn't just equip them all at once. Also there weren't restrictions on what classes could wear what, so mages could wear armor. I think all that led to the meta being everyone just playing as Thaumaturge regardless of what role they were doing.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

The problem with the role action system was they mostly just took abilities we already had and locked them away in a system where you could only pick 5, and some of them felt like they were mandatory, so it never felt like customization. Similarly, the cross-class system before that had "must have" abilities and then a bunch of fluff you could pick if you wanted that never really made much difference. And you had to level the jobs to have access to the abilities, so if you wanted to be a good tank or a good healer you had to level multiple classes. And before that you were directly required to level multiple classes, the job unlock quests originally had requirements like Paladin needed you to be gladiator 30 and conjurer 15 or something. But people didn't like being "forced" to level another class if they just wanted to be a tank.

And if we go all the way back to early 1.0, the game used to be entirely cross-class. Every class was basically freelancer, you could assign pretty much any ability you had learned with any other class. You had set points you were limited by similar to the Blue Mage job in FFXI so you couldn't just equip them all at once. Also there weren't restrictions on what classes could wear what, so mages could wear armor. I think all that led to the meta being everyone just playing as Thaumaturge regardless of what role they were doing.

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One weird part of the transition to role actions was that healers used to have their own dispels that were functionally identical but had some job flavor, so healers are still effectively short one button because they were all consolidated into Esuna.

the whole 30 minute job buffs are starting to give me wow paladin blessings PTSD.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

The problem with the role action system was they mostly just took abilities we already had and locked them away in a system where you could only pick 5, and some of them felt like they were mandatory, so it never felt like customization. Similarly, the cross-class system before that had "must have" abilities and then a bunch of fluff you could pick if you wanted that never really made much difference. And you had to level the jobs to have access to the abilities, so if you wanted to be a good tank or a good healer you had to level multiple classes. And before that you were directly required to level multiple classes, the job unlock quests originally had requirements like Paladin needed you to be gladiator 30 and conjurer 15 or something. But people didn't like being "forced" to level another class if they just wanted to be a tank.

And if we go all the way back to early 1.0, the game used to be entirely cross-class. Every class was basically freelancer, you could assign pretty much any ability you had learned with any other class. You had set points you were limited by similar to the Blue Mage job in FFXI so you couldn't just equip them all at once. Also there weren't restrictions on what classes could wear what, so mages could wear armor. I think all that led to the meta being everyone just playing as Thaumaturge regardless of what role they were doing.

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Partial disagree on what was mandatory. In fact I have seen different setups in content and some actions were not always picked, namely things like manashift or even refresh (because MP stability was already fading in Stormblood by that point). There was also actually smart people not taking Protect on healers for the pitiful defense gain it gave, but unfortunately the community was so dented about protect that you'd get harassed by clueless dungeon runners whenever you wouldn't cast it at the start of a dungeon.

But it never felt like true customization precisely because it never really pushed the intricacies of the system. HW did it best by having those not role based but class adjacent based which made every job a lot more unique, but didn't have the "select your options among many" that SB had, and we could certainly have done with a lot of the utility abilities that were actually cross class back then like Second Wind or Bloodbath, which were not necessarily meta depending on the job so you could have had more wiggle room into choosing what suits your playstyle.

I've always seen the argument that having to level multiple classes to be a "good X or Y" was bad, but is that a bad thing in a game that's literally about leveling multiple classes? Is that a bad thing that someone that actually invests some time gets access to additional perks? It never prevented anybody to play a tank, a healer or whatever not to have leveled their crossclasses. In fact, this was only mandatory for high end raiding. The first extremes I did back then I didn't even have swiftcast as a healer. Someone told me I should consider it, but I've never been removed or anything for not having it. I mean, I could slow raise, it wasn't such a biggie. And that made me actually want to level other classes.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

The Forked Tower Raid is the dumbest shit of all time.

it costs a hefty entry fee.
when its open it is only for like two minutes so people are stuck in fates or CE.

nobody seems to give a shit about it because everyone just want to far atmas.

why is it not just like Bozja where you register for it like Castrum or Dalriada


such bullcrap...

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As much as youre right it wouldnt work due to the need of certain phantom jobs inside

I really want to run Forked Tower, but I don't even want to think about attempting it until the the janky entry method gets fixed.

I'm just disappointed that there is no normal version of the FT :(

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Originally Posted by Matalaf

I'm just disappointed that there is no normal version of the FT :(

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I imagine a large chunk of the player base feels the same, but apparently when DT launched it cast an invisibility spell on us.

Adding one more thing into the list of what I dislike: The Mythic Idol.

No actually, not the fight. I like the fight. I however dislike their decision to allow up to 72 players participate in the CE without taking care of their technical limitation beforehand. Having some players' randomly assigned markers becoming invisible to your screen because (1)the visibility tied to the character's visibility; (2)too many players in the immediate vicinity then the game starts hiding some players, thus hiding those same AoE markers as well; just feels VERY bad. Maybe they should think about dealing with that technical limitation first before trying to soothe some booboo who may potentially miss out their CE.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Adding one more thing into the list of what I dislike: The Mythic Idol.

No actually, not the fight. I like the fight. I however dislike their decision to allow up to 72 players participate in the CE without taking care of their technical limitation beforehand. Having some players' randomly assigned markers becoming invisible to your screen because (1)the visibility tied to the character's visibility; (2)too many players in the immediate vicinity then the game starts hiding some players, thus hiding those same AoE markers as well; just feels VERY bad. Maybe they should think about dealing with that technical limitation first before trying to soothe some booboo who may potentially miss out their CE.

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Honestly there is so much fundamental problems like those in the content that it makes me wonder if they do actually test it before releasing it (because some of those sure as hell shouldn't have gone through), or if the actual reason is that the creative director is named David Goodenough. Budget too small, can't afford delays, just release it. And the sad part is that from what we see from interviews, their devs literally work themselves to death when trying to push a patch live (which is toxic work culture in a nutshell in video game, also called crunching).

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

I imagine a large chunk of the player base feels the same, but apparently when DT launched it cast an invisibility spell on us.

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I would say since EW. If you're not into progging fights from Extreme and up, and want something just a slight up from MSQ difficulty, the game has been pretty barren. EW dropped Criterion and Savage, DT Chaotic and now FT, all for seemingly the same target group.
SHB at least gave us the Bozja raids for a bit over MSQ difficulty.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Partial disagree on what was mandatory. In fact I have seen different setups in content and some actions were not always picked, namely things like manashift or even refresh (because MP stability was already fading in Stormblood by that point). There was also actually smart people not taking Protect on healers for the pitiful defense gain it gave, but unfortunately the community was so dented about protect that you'd get harassed by clueless dungeon runners whenever you wouldn't cast it at the start of a dungeon.

But it never felt like true customization precisely because it never really pushed the intricacies of the system. HW did it best by having those not role based but class adjacent based which made every job a lot more unique, but didn't have the "select your options among many" that SB had, and we could certainly have done with a lot of the utility abilities that were actually cross class back then like Second Wind or Bloodbath, which were not necessarily meta depending on the job so you could have had more wiggle room into choosing what suits your playstyle.

I've always seen the argument that having to level multiple classes to be a "good X or Y" was bad, but is that a bad thing in a game that's literally about leveling multiple classes? Is that a bad thing that someone that actually invests some time gets access to additional perks? It never prevented anybody to play a tank, a healer or whatever not to have leveled their crossclasses. In fact, this was only mandatory for high end raiding. The first extremes I did back then I didn't even have swiftcast as a healer. Someone told me I should consider it, but I've never been removed or anything for not having it. I mean, I could slow raise, it wasn't such a biggie. And that made me actually want to level other classes.

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This is a little revisionist history. No one ever dropped Refresh because the Prange didn't really have anything beyond four abilities worth using. Bards also utilized Refresh as a core part of their damage rotation not to simply help healers maintain MP. In fact, that was secondary in higher end content and often led to conflict since you'd have healers spam GCDs heals, especially WHM, only to then complain the Bard wasn't using Refresh for them. Which is likely what contributed to the gradual decline in MP relevance and Refresh altogether.

Likewise, going back to Heavensward and the cross skill system. Tanks really had only one decision to make because Rampart, Provoke, Convalescence, Invigorate and Second Wind were all essentially mandatory. From there you picked some combination of Awareness or Bloodbath. DPS were not any better has you were always choosing Blood for Blood, Internal Release, Second Wind, Bloodbath and Invigorate. Goad was really the only ability swapped on the melee. Prange.

As for leveling other jobs, I have to disagree. Being forced to play a class you may not like isn't fun nor does it encourage people to learn how to play it. We see this even nowadays with leveling and how many people will queue into high level content without a clue what they're doing simply because they need to have all their jobs at max level. The game has never been about leveling multiple classes, but simply providing the option to do so all on one character should you choose. Which is why so many people disliked feeling forced to level other characters.

And in the case of tanks, you were essentially forced to level Gladiator because you needed Provoke. Nowadays you would get kicked for not having Swiftcast in EXs because there's quite literally zero reason not to. Back in ARR days, the game was new and people were still figuring out how to even do things.