M4S has officially been beaten without healers in week 2

They were desperate to buff Paladin because Thancred's JP voice actor switched off of it in Endwalker because it was so weak. If only celebrities played healer

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I don't think anyone is claiming that doing savage and ultimate without healers is going to become the new normal.

What people are saying is that it's bad design for the current high-end content to be possible to clear with one role of the trinity removed from the party.

The former is easy to argue against while the latter is impossible to argue against, so it seems like people tend to lump all arguments as the former so they can argue against ghosts.

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The role was still present in a pedantic sense, it was just shared across the board or mostly replaced by the PLD. I have not looked at the logs but I suspect the PLD did not have to clem spam because their normal sustain coupled with the rest of the parties sustain was enough.

This is the balance dilemma, I bet if a DPS had any means to reliably hold aggro and have some decent mit people would be trying to push content without tanks for fun.

Edit: What I am saying is I do not think this would have been possible without something taking over the healer role. So it was possible just not with a green healer, but some form of healer or healing was present.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

This is the balance dilemma, I bet if a DPS had any means to reliably hold aggro and have some decent mit people would be trying to push content without tanks for fun.

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Emergency maintenance in the middle of the weekend. Reason: tank players are unhappy

When I see news like this…

I used to be shocked, but no longer
I used to get upset, but no longer
I used to care about healing, but no longer
I used to be a healer, but no longer

One day, healers will be needed and it will be a beautiful day, but none of us will be left to see it.

Just like a flower will wilt and die without water, so will healers without those who need our healing.

We will simply fade away.

Signed, a White Mage

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Emergency maintenance in the middle of the weekend. Reason: tank players are unhappy

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I would be the first person to sign up for bringing back aggro management, and I would love to see things like chicken nugget tanking come back.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

When I see news like this…

I used to be shocked, but no longer
I used to get upset, but no longer
I used to care about healing, but no longer
I used to be a healer, but no longer

One day, healers will be needed and it will be a beautiful day, but none of us will be left to see it.

Just like a flower will wilt and die without water, so will healers without those who need our healing.

We will simply fade away.

Signed, a White Mage

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Sad truth is most people still need healers and people do seem to enjoy healers as they are. I do not think people woefully overestimate how many healers really want more responsibility, savage PF and even normal mode PF do show that SE has fostered a community that has not improved much over the years.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

I would be the first person to sign up for bringing back aggro management, and I would love to see things like chicken nugget tanking come back.

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I'd love aggro management, if it is actually a tank responsibility and not the tank lifting both his feet from his bed on pull and then telling everyone to manage their aggression so they don't have to.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

I'd love aggro management, if it is actually a tank responsibility and not the tank lifting both his feet from his bed on pull and then telling everyone to manage their aggression so they don't have to.

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Back then it was a group effort, which is not a bad thing imo.

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Originally Posted by Miki_L

They were desperate to buff Paladin because Thancred's JP voice actor switched off of it in Endwalker because it was so weak. If only celebrities played healer

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Meanwhile YoshiP switched from BLM to Picto as his main.

Which left BLM realizing they are no longer 'safe'.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

When I see news like this…

I used to be shocked, but no longer
I used to get upset, but no longer
I used to care about healing, but no longer
I used to be a healer, but no longer

One day, healers will be needed and it will be a beautiful day, but none of us will be left to see it.

Just like a flower will wilt and die without water, so will healers without those who need our healing.

We will simply fade away.

Signed, a White Mage

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I'm with you on the first two "I used to..." but I still care about healing, want the role to be more fun, and still heal.

As a casual Rouletter, I'm still needed and useful. But it's such a disgrace to see what the role is on the high end.

Tanks and DPS are still needed but in certain combinations completely remove the need for the healer role. This needs to change ASAP.

For those wondering:
@6:51 - 6:59 - 8 clemency cast during boss jump/phase change
@~12:28 - pld #1(player) x1 clemency on dnc after death

9 total clemency hard casts. 1 during uptime

Edit: Linked video was a different one updated times.
Times for original video:
@7:01 - 7:12 - 8 clemency cast during boss jump/phase change
@12:38 - pld #3 x1 clemency on dnc after death

Well, I would argue that healing is obviously still a thing that's required as they brought a bunch of tanks that have a healing spell haha Though I don't think clemency should be good enough for this to be possible. Tank sustain is just too good these days.

clemency isn't even the issue.
Since it is a GCD it makes replacing a healer with a PLD spamming clemency suboptimal.
Here the issue is the PLD did not even need to use it. Pretty sure the reason for 4 Tank was for support/dps pairs consistency + triple cover was nice since no LB tank.

Ï think it is great, it is difficult to do, but it can be done is the key factor, 99,99% wont do this, so it is irrelevant to complain about it as it is.

I think it is something nice to see for a chance and I applaud that team for getting away with it.

It is way more than savage doing this without healers, I salute these guys.

Now can it be done with just one healer and more DPS to make the fight faster, is the question.

I like this video..

It is showing how the current job system is so bad to the point where healers are not the only healers in this game

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Originally Posted by angienessyo

Well, I would argue that healing is obviously still a thing that's required as they brought a bunch of tanks that have a healing spell haha Though I don't think clemency should be good enough for this to be possible. Tank sustain is just too good these days.

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Just to test the difference between Clemency and Cure 2.

PLD ilvl 689
WHM ilvl 686

Cure 2 = 34k heal
Clemency = 30k heal + 15k Self heal

The difference on the target is largely negligible but that extra self heal means that clemency is just an overall more potent heal.

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Originally Posted by angienessyo

Well, I would argue that healing is obviously still a thing that's required as they brought a bunch of tanks that have a healing spell haha Though I don't think clemency should be good enough for this to be possible. Tank sustain is just too good these days.

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They literally never even cast Clemency once in the whole fight. Just as a heads up.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Just to test the difference between Clemency and Cure 2.

PLD ilvl 689
WHM ilvl 686

Cure 2 = 34k heal
Clemency = 30k heal + 15k Self heal

The difference on the target is largely negligible but that extra self heal means that clemency is just an overall more potent heal.

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I think we can change PLD color from blue to green at this point at least light green

the real green job is WAR

okay, M1S was cleared with all tanks. Where's my DPS bros' complaints at?

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Originally Posted by Ritsugamesh

They literally never even cast Clemency once in the whole fight. Just as a heads up.

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also, please don't spread misinformation.

https://i.imgur.com/2HXGgYs.png

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Originally Posted by Ritsugamesh

They literally never even cast Clemency once in the whole fight. Just as a heads up.

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They do cast clemency, just without DPS loss because it's during the time boss is untargetable (cannot be hit).
Which just means tank DPS is unaffected, and tanks already have higher DPS than healers.

It just shows that healers are just weaker in all aspects. Less HP, less defense, less DPS.

Unique ways to save the party? They don't have cover. They don't possess invuln. They don't have strong ST mits like tanks with their 25s cd skill.

Idk what healers are really designed for at this point tbh.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

They do cast clemency, just without DPS loss because it's during the time boss is untargetable (cannot be hit).
Which just means tank DPS is unaffected, and tanks already have higher DPS than healers.

It just shows that healers are just weaker in all aspects. Less HP, less defense, less DPS.

Unique ways to save the party? They don't have cover. They don't possess invuln. They don't have strong ST mits like tanks with their 25s cd skill.

Idk what healers are really designed for at this point tbh.

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They're designed to use LB3 after the party inevitably fails Sunrise Sabbath. It's pretty goated.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

Idk what healers are really designed for at this point tbh.

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I guess at this point -

1. To play with "normal" players that get hit often and need healing;
2. To play with all the players that don't want to run 1 Warrior, 3 Paladins, and 4 DPS that all heal. Players that want to play GNB, DRK, DRG, NIN, SAM, VPR, BLM, MCH, BRD.

While this video is absurd and indicative of terrible job balancing - mostly on behalf of WAR and PLD, it by no means healers have no role in the entire game.

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Originally Posted by angienessyo

Well, I would argue that healing is obviously still a thing that's required as they brought a bunch of tanks that have a healing spell haha Though I don't think clemency should be good enough for this to be possible. Tank sustain is just too good these days.

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Exactly correct. The jobs are poorly designed. It is not complicated.

Jobs can have some mitigation or some healing to help them get out of tough spots. They shouldn't have enough to become immortal or replace the healer roles.

So many threads, so much discussion, when we have balanced jobs in the game to refer to that do not violate this general principle. It's just that a handful are not balanced.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

They do cast clemency, just without DPS loss because it's during the time boss is untargetable (cannot be hit).
Which just means tank DPS is unaffected, and tanks already have higher DPS than healers.

It just shows that healers are just weaker in all aspects. Less HP, less defense, less DPS.

Unique ways to save the party? They don't have cover. They don't possess invuln. They don't have strong ST mits like tanks with their 25s cd skill.

Idk what healers are really designed for at this point tbh.

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huh, I wonder if it would unironically be better to just do 4 tanks and 4 dps as the standard lol, especially once people get more geared and it'd be even easier to get by without healers. Probably not, especially with the cover cheese being required, but this makes it seem scarily close to just being the better choice for even PF.

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Originally Posted by Stabegabe

huh, I wonder if it would unironically be better to just do 4 tanks and 4 dps as the standard lol, especially once people get more geared and it'd be even easier to get by without healers. Probably not, especially with the cover cheese being required, but this makes it seem scarily close to just being the better choice for even PF.

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There are a lot of combinations of players who don't want to rely on PLD and WAR that is carrying these comps.

Also not really brought up in this thread is the actual design of the fight. It's incredibly forgiving, and just generally underwhelming despite being a fun fight. All they have to do is just add multiple vuln up LP stacks that target healers and this wouldn't be tried. You could also make a repeated stack make a check to target a healer each time, so even if the first stacks are separate the subsequent ones could be in the same stack.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

They do cast clemency, just without DPS loss because it's during the time boss is untargetable (cannot be hit).
Which just means tank DPS is unaffected, and tanks already have higher DPS than healers.

It just shows that healers are just weaker in all aspects. Less HP, less defense, less DPS.

Unique ways to save the party? They don't have cover. They don't possess invuln. They don't have strong ST mits like tanks with their 25s cd skill.

Idk what healers are really designed for at this point tbh.

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Healers are designed to be played with tge majority of players that do not use mitigation, stand in bad, you know normal FFXIV player shit.

Healers still play a major role in content for most players.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

Idk what healers are really designed for at this point tbh.

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I said it before and I'll say it again, healer is the party insurance if and when thing go wrong.

What you described is a perfect world, in this case where all 8 players are competent, well communicated and have a game plan, and also don't make (major) mistake.

And just like in a perfect world, you wouldn't need insurance. But because most people live in an imperfect world, insurance is an undeniable necessity.

And if a game is strictly designed to function only under the perfect assumption, it will fail. Healer is there to ensure the design is robust and not rigid.

Insurance isn't an apt analogy because in real life, there is no tank comparison. Tanks are not making insurance irrelevant IRL. Tanks are not stopping theft, flooding, and mortality. That's why people need insurance.

So the more you talk about insurance, the more obvious it becomes that the game being designed around tanks is a problem.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Insurance isn't an apt analogy because in real life, there is no tank comparison. Tanks are not making insurance irrelevant IRL. Tanks are not stopping theft, flooding, and mortality. That's why people need insurance.

So the more you talk about insurance, the more obvious it becomes that the game being designed around tanks is a problem.

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Insurance is more than State Farm, Allstate, Progressive, Liberty Mutual, and etc. It's just a general thing that protects you from a possibility or eventuality.

Uh ... that's why I'm not comparing tank? But I can try if you want to push the narrative ...

I would say Tank is like the a government. A perfect tank would be like a perfect government that provide enough safety net to protect people from taking damage, and mitigate/compensate when people do have to take unavoidable damage.

For example, if a government provide universal healthcare, then it's possible to eliminate the need of health insurance.

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Originally Posted by Shinku_Tachi

Insurance is more than State Farm, Allstate, Progressive, Liberty Mutual, and etc. It's just a general thing that protects you from a possibility or eventuality.

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Yeah, this is what I meant. Insurance - as a term - just mean you have a backup in case when and if something goes wrong, and if things never go wrong, it's quite normal to see the backup never get used.

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Originally Posted by Shinku_Tachi

Insurance is more than State Farm, Allstate, Progressive, Liberty Mutual, and etc. It's just a general thing that protects you from a possibility or eventuality.

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And the insurance in this instance literally isn't needed. So why are we talking about it?

Why are we saying it's a good thing that healers are part time relevant, additionally? Why is that good? And let's be honest..so are DPS. The game design is almost** entirely tank centric.

Tanks being government..OK that's bad? Why would we want any one role to be like the government....

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

For example, if a government provide universal healthcare, then it's possible to eliminate the need of health insurance.

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No. *Look at the debt of the universal healthcares of his country....."
No really no.

Joke aside, we have what all others country consider the best Universal Healthcare in the world.... But we still have health Insurance on the side for compensate for what this Universal Healthcare doesn't cover (almost everything teeth related, some very costly surgery etc..)

So, your analogy just prove that you need some other insurance on the side : healers.

If healers are like insurance, and insurance doesn't always see use, then... can healers at least have something a touch more exciting than 112111111111 to pass the time?

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

And the insurance in this instance literally isn't needed. So why are we talking about it?

Why are we saying it's a good thing that healers are part time relevant, additionally? Why is that good? And let's be honest..so are DPS. The game design is entirely tank centric.

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I didn't say any of this.

Raven said healers were insurance, you posted what you posted, I responded.

I stated my stance on the topic earlier in the thread, here:

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Originally Posted by Shinku_Tachi

Yep. At the end of the day, each role in the trinity needs a responsibility that cannot be done without it. ESPECIALLY in EX trials and savage raiding.

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Originally Posted by Shinku_Tachi

I didn't say any of this.

Raven said healers were insurance, you posted what you posted, I responded.

I stated my stance on the topic earlier in the thread, here:

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I don't understand why you responded to me then. To educate me that insurance saves you from more than I mentioned? Obviously?? Do I need to list out every possible case for you to understand my point? There is no basis for the comparison because this is a role discussion and the tank role has no real life comparison. It is game breaking. Nothing in reality breaks life to the point where insurance isn't necessary. That was my point.

And that's what we are dealing with here. It's less tanks are the government and more like tanks making your house flood immune (negating any possible need for flood insurance).

It's also not, as others have implied, just a healer issue or just a high end issue. It's also very much a casual issue. Tanks are a problem.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

I don't understand why you responded to me then. To educate me that insurance saves you from more than I mentioned? Obviously?? Do I need to list out every possible case for you to understand my point? There is no basis for the comparison because this is a role discussion and the tank role has no real life comparison. It is game breaking. Nothing in reality breaks life to the point where insurance isn't necessary. That was my point.

And that's what we are dealing with here. It's less tanks are the government and more like tanks making your house flood immune (negating any possible need for flood insurance).

It's also not, as others have implied, just a healer issue or just a high end issue. It's also very much a casual issue. Tanks are a problem.

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In an attempt to reel thing back in. That's all. It wasn't an attack on you. Apologies if it was taken that way.

The word insurance was stated, and instead of the term being taken for what it is on its own, things got derailed. To the point that we have people talking about insurance policies, single payer / universal healthcare, the government, and etc. None of that applies here.

It's more of an overall vision rather than the issue with specific role.

Remember back in 3.0 Yoshi was very clear about how he want a raid group to work:

- He wants spread responsibility.

- He wants everyone to do a little bit of everything.

- That's why healer is expected to DPS.

- That's why tank can heal.

- That's why DPS can mitigate.

At first, that sounds like a fair and ideal system, and tbf, for a long time people thought it was a refreshing and interesting take of the traditional trinity. But overtime, the inherent problems of this vision become more obvious.

Say, if we look at a raid requirements, it's basically broken down to two main requirements: required DPS, and required healing.

- Required DPS: start at the minimum but trend upward to infinitive. There is no such thing as wasted DPS.

- Required healing: start at the maximum (low skill low gears) but trend downward to a lower minimum (better skill better gears). Any healing more than necessary is wasted healing.

And now it's easy to see why that's a problem.

- No matter how much DPS a healer do, they don't take away from the other role because you can't never have too much DPS.

- But any healing/mitigation the party does will directly diminish the healer's important.


So I think it's more of a case healer is the inherent victim while tank is the inherent benefactor of the core vision of the design. That's why I don't think it's something you can fix with any amount of tweaking. It'll require Yoshi and the team to go back and discard the original vision of the trinity. And call me pessimist, I don't think that will ever happen in the life time of FF14.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

It's more of an overall vision rather than the issue with specific role.

Remember back in 3.0 Yoshi was very clear about how he want a raid group to work:

- He wants spread responsibility.

- He wants everyone to do a little bit of everything.

- That's why healer is expected to DPS.

- That's why tank can heal.

- That's why DPS can mitigate.

At first, that sounds like a fair and ideal system, and tbf, for a long time people thought it was a refreshing and interesting take of the traditional trinity. But overtime, the inherent problems of this vision become more obvious.

Say, if we look at a raid requirements, it's basically broken down to two main requirements: required DPS, and required healing.

- Required DPS: start at the minimum but trend upward to infinitive. There is no such thing as wasted DPS.

- Required healing: start at the maximum (low skill low gears) but trend downward to a lower minimum (better skill better gears). Any healing more than necessary is wasted healing.

And now it's easy to see why that's a problem.

- No matter how much DPS a healer do, they don't take away from the other role because you can't never have too much DPS.

- But any healing/mitigation the party does will directly diminish the healer's important.


So I think it's more of a case healer is the inherent victim while tank is the inherent benefactor of the core vision of the design. That's why I don't think it's something you can fix with any amount of tweaking. It'll require Yoshi and the team to go back and discard the original vision of the trinity. And call me pessimist, I don't think that will ever happen in the life time of FF14.

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I disagree that you have to overturn the whole game to fix it. BLM has mitigation-- it isn't going to replace a tank forever, even in casual content. RPR has a self heal-- it doesn't make it a WHM. The game does not need to be overturned. Tanks and encounter design need to be overturned so it's not Final Fantasy XIV: Episode Tank all the time.

If the team isn't going to do that, then break every job. I want healing and tank level mitigation on every job. Every job should be able to solo bosses down with ease. There should be an all BLM run of every savage at release. And so on and so forth. Just break everything instead of doing it half assed.

Everyone's favorite tank Xenos was just talking about it in a video, how homogenization is the reason for the state of the trinity and jobs. But we aren't homogenized-- we are selectively homogenized. Just fully homogenize it.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

I guess at this point -

1. To play with "normal" players that get hit often and need healing;
2. To play with all the players that don't want to run 1 Warrior, 3 Paladins, and 4 DPS that all heal. Players that want to play GNB, DRK, DRG, NIN, SAM, VPR, BLM, MCH, BRD.

While this video is absurd and indicative of terrible job balancing - mostly on behalf of WAR and PLD, it by no means healers have no role in the entire game.

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No but much like a leaky pipe, it's better to deal with the issue now before it gets where the damage is irreparable. I mean, how long before they end up buffing those jobs to include more self healing? MNK didn't have Earth's Reply before DT but that was retroactively given to the job to be accessible by level 64, so now it has it available for every single Ultimate fight in the game. What's stopping SE from just throwing on Regens, Damage shields and whatever else they can in an attempt to "buff" those jobs? What's stopping Nature's Minne from getting an AoE heal effect attached to it to make BRD more attractive to play, especially since they did exactly that before, changing it from a ST heal buff to an AoE heal buff; throwing a heal on top of that just seems like the nature next step in its progression. People have been making a plethora of suggestions for DRK, including adding heals to its toolkits, be it on TBN, Dark Mind, etc. that would all be reasonable in a vacuum but on the whole are detrimental to healer gameplay. It's only a matter of time before we get a Healing Flamethrower on MCH