Tanks holding fights hostage in Roulettes

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Originally Posted by Larirawiel

And now imagine, what happens if your wish will come true. Many tears will flow in the forums, that the stupid tank players always leave the party after one wipe.



Cheers

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Already exists, absolute non-issue, there's very very few people coming to the forums in tears because any given role decided to abandon duty.

Hell, people barely even care as is if a player leaves immediately upon entering a duty when they don't get what they like in a roulette.

Those tears won't exist.

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Originally Posted by Larirawiel

And now imagine, what happens if your wish will come true. Many tears will flow in the forums, that the stupid tank players always leave the party after one wipe.



Cheers

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Getting sick of reading this too.

If the tank is leaving after a single goddamn wipe chances are the party is better off without them anyway.

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Originally Posted by Lorika

Nah, you proc solo unsync if you want to feel almighty.
TEAMPLAY it's what is al about... If you can't understand that, then your don't belong in a MMORPF

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I mean they did work as a team no? The two tanks that is. Seems like teamplay and working together in a MMO.

Seems its another round of dunking on tanks, since the YPYT argument has been sucked dry by any circlejerks.

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Originally Posted by Larirawiel

And now imagine, what happens if your wish will come true. Many tears will flow in the forums, that the stupid tank players always leave the party after one wipe.



Cheers

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The entitlement is cringe worthy

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

I mean they did work as a team no? The two tanks that is. Seems like teamplay and working together in a MMO.

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Did you takelong to think about this one?
I hope not.

My tank brothers and sisters. For next months evil ploy, we pretend to be afk for an "Important life happening" during pulls and watch our teams die, while smoking evil cigars. Only once per instance though, we don't want them to get wind of what's happening! Get the message around to all data centers in all languages, yes include the French too! It's time to watch the forums burn, muahahah!

Wait-... wrong forum! Damnit Gary you were supposed to set it up for the #Tankcrimesyndicate!

They should put in a "vote to wipe" button where the people who are either dead or outside of an arena can vote whether or not to forcibly reset the encounter if the remaining tank refuses to die. I've also seen this bad habit becoming more prevalent these days where someone would rather have their cool "last man standing" moment instead of taking the L and letting the rest of the group play the game.

More fights need enrage mechanics, honestly. If they reliably had dps checks this wouldn't happen.

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Originally Posted by wildvenonat

More fights need enrage mechanics, honestly. If they reliably had dps checks this wouldn't happen.

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It's surprising that so many people get upset at the mere mention of enrage mechanics in normal fights when there already are some. They're so forgiving I haven't even seen some of them, but they exist. People act like half the playerbase would leave.

People think of the worst possible version of the thing they're reading about.

"I want healing to be more interesting" == "I want every job to have the old MNK rotation"
"Tanks shouldn't hold people hostage for 15+ minutes while they solo a boss if the people who died just want to try and learn it" == "if you try to kill a boss at 5% to get the clear as a solo tank you're subhuman sludge who deserves to eat dirt and I hate you you're not supposed to have feelings or opinions you are my AGGRO SLAVE"
"Maybe more normal content should have enrages" == "I want ultimate level DPS checks in ARR leveling dungeons I am an elitist who hates all these scrub idiot baby players who can't git gud"

Something like that, at least that's what it always feels like

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Originally Posted by gllt

People think of the worst possible version of the thing they're reading about.

"I want healing to be more interesting" == "I want every job to have the old MNK rotation"
"Tanks shouldn't hold people hostage for 15+ minutes while they solo a boss if the people who died just want to try and learn it" == "if you try to kill a boss at 5% to get the clear as a solo tank you're subhuman sludge who deserves to eat dirt and I hate you you're not supposed to have feelings or opinions you are my AGGRO SLAVE"
"Maybe more normal content should have enrages" == "I want ultimate level DPS checks in ARR leveling dungeons I am an elitist who hates all these scrub idiot baby players who can't git gud"

Something like that, at least that's what it always feels like

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But there is a major difference of "healer died, nobody can get them back up, boss is at 10-15%, let's just burn it down" and "boss is at 60%, healer died nobody can get them up, lets just keep fighting".

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Originally Posted by Avatre

But there is a major difference of "healer died, nobody can get them back up, boss is at 10-15%, let's just burn it down" and "boss is at 60%, healer died nobody can get them up, lets just keep fighting".

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You don't have to prove that difference to me, I'm not sure what your point is. I agree? If it's 10-15 burn it down unless the rest of the party really objects for some reason, otherwise if it's something absurd like 60.. don't, unless the party asks you to, then go for it.

I think it's fine to try and solo when the boss is around 10%ish but yeah often times when it's a full wipe I end up typing in party chat "Please wipe stop wasting time"
Usually most people will just go ahead and wipe when you point out your annoyance but I have had a few people just ignore it

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Originally Posted by gllt

You don't have to prove that difference to me, I'm not sure what your point is. I agree? If it's 10-15 burn it down unless the rest of the party really objects for some reason, otherwise if it's something absurd like 60.. don't, unless the party asks you to, then go for it.

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I think the issue is more "what happens in the grey areas"? What if it's at 18-20%? That's above 15%, but far away from 60%. Where does the proverbial line get drawn?

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"Maybe more normal content should have enrages" == "I want ultimate level DPS checks in ARR leveling dungeons I am an elitist who hates all these scrub idiot baby players who can't git gud"

Something like that, at least that's what it always feels like

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Yeah, I get that sense, too. I'd have to say, though, when people use the phrase "hard enrage," by its nature it feels like it implies a significant skill check. Some people in this thread are calling for something like a 15-minute enrage on a 5-minute fight...doesn't feel like a "hard enrage" when it's never going to happen, so why even bother becomes the thought. If you're going to add it, it implies it would be meaningful and thus could definitely affect average players.

Personally, I'd say if the goal is preventing a tank from just solo'ing a boss from an absurd amount of health, aside from the obvious adjusting of tank mitigation and self-sustain, another option could be to have bosses automatically give themselves a significant buff that stacks if only one player in the party is left alive (or perhaps two people in an 8-man setting). Make it so a tank could still reasonably finish a boss off if it's HP is already low, but soon enough overwhelm and one-shot the tank if it's not already close to death. (Basically, a soft enrage when most of the raid is dead.)

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Originally Posted by hydralus

It's surprising that so many people get upset at the mere mention of enrage mechanics in normal fights when there already are some. They're so forgiving I haven't even seen some of them, but they exist. People act like half the playerbase would leave.

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Yeah, I can offhand think of three regular dungeons with enrage checks, and you know what circumstances it enrages? "Tank is the only one alive" or "dps are not pressing buttons at all." A lot of alliance raids have real enrage checks, too, and again it only really checks that people are awake. You don't die to enrage in casual content unless there's very big problems.

The tank is the only person alive and wants to solo the boss far beyond where it's faster to wipe is a big problem that's fixable by having a dps check they won't succeed in. Those are already all over the place.

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Originally Posted by Lorika

Did you takelong to think about this one?
I hope not.

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Hey no need to get bent out of shape, I was not the person that brought up teamwork when clearing two people did use teamwork to finish the fight.

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Originally Posted by Avatre

But there is a major difference of "healer died, nobody can get them back up, boss is at 10-15%, let's just burn it down" and "boss is at 60%, healer died nobody can get them up, lets just keep fighting".

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Is that inherently wrong though? If SE did not want that to happen they would have put an enrage mechanic that the tanks cannot survive or something. Not exactly sure why people are blaming the tanks for simply finishing out the fight. Maybe they don't want to just stand around and die. It is silly to fault people with that or think they are doing it out of malice or have some ill intent behind it.

This is a tough one... it's more of a courtesy to make the right judgement call here. Tanks who just do it from a high percentage left are kinda just being rude. At the same time, if the group is dieing alot and not learning.. maybe the tank just wants to finish it. Square would have to introduce a mechanic to handle this or a timer. If tank is alive only for like 3 mins then reset the fight.

But I'm sure that would piss off other people

Go with the Delubrum solution - You get one pass on failing the mechanic, the second time gives you a insta kill debuff that drops you dead after 5 seconds.

We shall see who is the last one that stands.

There are many ways SE could address it if they thought it was a that much of a problem.
An extremely simple solution would just be to have the bosses occasionally apply a doom debuff on the tanks that has to be esuna'd by a healer. You don't see this happening on the first boss of Dun Scaith for a reason.

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Originally Posted by hydralus

It's surprising that so many people get upset at the mere mention of enrage mechanics in normal fights when there already are some. They're so forgiving I haven't even seen some of them, but they exist. People act like half the playerbase would leave.

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I heard yesterday that apparently the last boss of the Grand Cosmos becomes unwinnable if you take too long. I've never seen this happen. I have seen the last boss of Lapis Manalis enrage, because the tank was the only one alive and wasn't able to kill in time, and Porta Decumana and Aetherochemical Research Facility have enrages that I've never seen go off.

I like enrages. They're an easy check as to if you need to stop a minute and do better next time, and they feel satisfying to defeat.

Report it.

Let's see how smug they are when they're in GM Jail receiving an account warning over it :D

Context definitely matters in this situation. If I'm tanking as WAR or GNB I will always ask if I should wall when all ressers are down. One time during Asura last expac the healers went down like 5 mins into the fight but all the DPS were fine. There were no first-timers who were on the floor, so the other tank and I were able to keep the DPS alive no probs so the boss burned down about as fast as a normal run. The healers were basically spectators but they didn't mind.

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Originally Posted by wildvenonat

I like enrages. They're an easy check as to if you need to stop a minute and do better next time, and they feel satisfying to defeat.

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Agreed. I don't think it's healthy to make players sit there for an entire lockout doing nothing.

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Originally Posted by NightHour

Report it.

Let's see how smug they are when they're in GM Jail receiving an account warning over it :D

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There's nothing against the ToS about playing your job correctly, even if the rest of your party doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Karious

There's nothing against the ToS about playing your job correctly, even if the rest of your party doesn't.

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"Nuisance behavior" is speech or behavior that hurts others or obstructs their gameplay, but which is not classified as harassment. Even if it was not intended, a penalty may be issued if the end result was that another person was hurt, or their gameplay was obstructed. If the behavior was observed being conducted by multiple players, all involved members will be issued a penalty.

Below is a non-exhaustive list of examples of nuisance behavior:

Obstructing the activities of others
Refers to any kind of obstructive behavior that prevents the activities of another player.

Obstructing Gameplay Using Combat
Refers to an act of obstructive behavior such as using specific skills in an unintended manner or taking advantage of battle mechanics to interfere with the gameplay of other players.

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Trapping people by using combat would definitely qualify. Especially if you continue to do so after being asked to stop.

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Originally Posted by EusisLandale

Trapping people by using combat would definitely qualify. Especially if you continue to do so after being asked to stop.

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Stop doing what? Playing the game? I'm tanking. It's my job. They're not being prevented from playing the game, they can leave if they don't want to be carried.. :) Nothing 'unintended' about how tanks are designed. Your argument falls flat.

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Originally Posted by EusisLandale

Trapping people by using combat would definitely qualify. Especially if you continue to do so after being asked to stop.

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No, you are not trapped. You can leave the party and you are free again.


Cheers

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Originally Posted by Larirawiel

No, you are not trapped. You can leave the party and you are free again.


Cheers

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You can't leave the party if you're dead and the tank wants to be a god to solo the boss. You're trapped until either tank dies or the boss does.

I know that sounds unpopular but I think that tanks should not have been given with all of that self sustaining kit if SE wanted to keep normal content easy.

Making the game accessible to everyone is a good thing but in general games are not for everyone. That’s why we have a rating system for example.

Now, like it or not, there’s a problem and unless it’s a spread issue along all the communities SE is finding themselves in a bad spot.
Reworking contents/jobs for a problem locate only in EU/NA may produce disappointing on JP side.
Not doing anything will result in “A Healer Problem Reborn” 2.0.

While I can agree with adding enrage-like mechanics to normals fight can partially resolve the issue I’m worried about how SE could implement them.
I’ve never seen enrages besides the ones during savage contents so I can expect the timer would be more like 15/20ish minutes into the fight which is the double of one normal fight time.
If a mighty solo tank failed the dps check in this scenario it’d took a rough total of 30ish minutes against 8>11 minutes.
The problem would not be addressed, just restricted.

IMHO, SE could let people leave mid fight. If it is something doable and not “we cannot due the engine code shit”.
The only reason solo tanks players have been doing this since ever (I remember watching two paladin soling Senryuo back to ShB era) is for their ego and if they have not a public to show off their “skills” then they eventually will grow tired of extending their own time for an empty stage.
And since the duty is already commenced no one can join from the outside.
The problem is that now the first person to leave gets the 30 minutes penality and that sucks, tbh.
Could be a three time “free exit jail” ticket to start with….

…..Well I’m not here to solve SE’s problem for free anyway.

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Originally Posted by EusisLandale

Trapping people by using combat would definitely qualify. Especially if you continue to do so after being asked to stop.

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Please read the key points directly under the part you posted in ToS; they are specifically referring causing others death or damage. There is no mention of doing a fight solo or not. It’s specifically geared towards griefing.

I wholeheartedly think we should all be discussing a better way to do tanks/healers etc, but before throwing ToS out there please read it, internalize the words written and really take a minute to work out what they are saying.

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Key Points:

It is prohibited to interfere with the combat of others in the following manner:

Using actions during combat to cause other players to fall from platforms or field areas to incapacitate them.
Using and manipulating enmity-related actions in an effort to incapacitate other players or interfere with gameplay.
Gathering groups of enemies to obstruct the view of others.

If a report has been filed and the prohibited activity is confirmed, a penalty will be issued.

Simply performing the acts listed above will not immediately result in a violation, as they could be caused unintentionally or be due to unintended circumstances. If it has been determined that the above behaviors were done intentionally or repeatedly to obstruct the other player's gameplay, then a penalty will be issued.

Please note that Square Enix may issue a penalty in its discretion even if a report has not been filed but the act was found being conducted in public areas such as in towns/cities/field areas, or online video/streaming services.

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Originally Posted by Karious

Stop doing what? Playing the game? I'm tanking. It's my job. They're not being prevented from playing the game, they can leave if they don't want to be carried.. :) Nothing 'unintended' about how tanks are designed. Your argument falls flat.

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Yup.... Tanking.... Not DPSing and Killing a boss... But taking it's hit and survive them.
Not the same thing.

So it's not your role to take down the boss.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

Hey no need to get bent out of shape, I was not the person that brought up teamwork when clearing two people did use teamwork to finish the fight.

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Really, i really hope it didn't take you long to process all this.... it would be a shame otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Lorika

Yup.... Tanking.... Not DPSing and Killing a boss... But taking it's hit and survive them.
Not the same thing.

So it's not your role to take down the boss.


Really, i really hope it didn't take you long to process all this.... it would be a shame otherwise.

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I do damage. Too bad if everyone else can't figure out how to not stand in the glowy spot or know what a stack marker is. If I want to burn down a boss solo, there's nothing anyone can do to stop me.

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Originally Posted by DontReadThis

There are many ways SE could address it if they thought it was a that much of a problem.
An extremely simple solution would just be to have the bosses occasionally apply a doom debuff on the tanks that has to be esuna'd by a healer. You don't see this happening on the first boss of Dun Scaith for a reason.

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That would result in a lot of wipes because a lot of DF healers don't know what Esuna is.
But who can blame them really, unless you do EX/Savage you don't really have to use it.

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Originally Posted by Fhaerron

That would result in a lot of wipes because a lot of DF healers don't know what Esuna is.
But who can blame them really, unless you do EX/Savage you don't really have to use it.

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When whole Healer quest-line was about Esuna, you know it's kinda under-used in actual game. :p

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Originally Posted by Karious

I do damage. Too bad if everyone else can't figure out how to not stand in the glowy spot or know what a stack marker is. If I want to burn down a boss solo, there's nothing anyone can do to stop me.

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Then how about to reset and let thoses people the time to learn how the boss mechanics work instead of being an egoistic jerk?
Because this what this post is all about since the start, and your answer is just what many people was pointing out to be one of main the problem : a crappy attitude.

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Originally Posted by Lorika

Then how about to reset and let thoses people the time to learn how the boss mechanics work instead of being an egoistic jerk?
Because this what this post is all about since the start, and your answer is just what many people was pointing out to be one of main the problem : a crappy attitude.

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No, I don't think I will reset.

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Originally Posted by Karious

No, I don't think I will reset.

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Then don't come back crying about player skill issue if you don't take time to teach other and let them practice, that eventually lead to difficulty nerf and job getting dumbed down.

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Originally Posted by Anzaman

When whole Healer quest-line was about Esuna, you know it's kinda under-used in actual game. :p

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Which so damn hilarious. The whole questline is pretty much game begging us "Please remember that Esuna exists, put it on your hotbar!".

While 95% of Duty Finder instances don't give you any debuffs to Esuna or it is some outdated ARR/HW poison DoT that barely tickles hp bar of a random DPS. If the game actually bothered to play with debuffing the player characters in said instances, there would be MUCH less healers oblivious to the existance of Esuna. Same problem with Interruptable mechanics. In modern expansion, you see it once in a blue moon.

Quilty pleasure of mine is to watch how oh so immortal tanks panic and writhe when the boss slaps them with Doom and only Healer/Bard can save them from taking a nap on the floor.

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Originally Posted by Rehayem

You can't leave the party if you're dead and the tank wants to be a god to solo the boss. You're trapped until either tank dies or the boss does.

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OK, i have never tried to leave a party so i do not know whether it works or not if you are dead. But ALT+F4 always works.




Cheers

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Originally Posted by Larirawiel

OK, i have never tried to leave a party so i do not know whether it works or not if you are dead. But ALT+F4 always works.




Cheers

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Even if you ALT + F4, how long would you need to wait to be sure you're out of the party? 30 minutes? So it wouldn't make a difference if you stayed dead in the party because the tank is still holding the party hostage lol. Flawless logic.