You pull you tank question.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

Non-sequitur.

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How so? If you want to be "optimal" and do your burst during movement then you should stay in the tank's range if you rip aggro. The only time I've seen it in the past 2 weeks is with Pictomancer players. Like I've had a Summoner Bahamut instantly and manage to take aggro, but they ran it into range of provoke. I don't make them tank it but it's annoying to have to move everything else because they sit there out of range.

I like this thread because this type of behavior is why I main tank to avoid such obnoxious tanks.

I was on DNC with my friend (she on PCT) and we had a tank with a variation of the name "Leroy Jenkins" getting pissy about us (healer included) pulling ahead of him. It was clear the healer wanted more pulls, and I didn't die once at all. If I die, I'll blame the tank for not doing their job as tank, simple as that.

Just pull the mobs for me and bring them to me, it's not rocket science.

Had one of those recently.

He got kicked, got an actual tank. Run went smooth

So I throw my worthless two cents in.

Im on the side of YPYT.
Hear me out W2W is not what everybody does. Its nice yes however I literally cannot count the amount of time lost and entire parties whiped out because a dps or healer would not just let the tank go at their speed.

Back in STB it got so bad that if I saw doma pop. Id leave the dungeon and re-q, because the 30 penalty was less time wasted than dealing with the W2W attempts from dps and healers who did nothing but dps dps dps none stop even at the cost of the party.

Eventually had to just let players die at packs ahead of us and refuse to move until we finished in order to actually progress through the place.

My point being I personally would rather have a party member die repeatedly learning not to assume there job is to hold/take the aggro of the mobs when their role doesn't say TANK.

If they are comfortable enough to pull for the group. Then they must be confident enough to survive without us and that was their choice. I didn't make them go ahead and grab more problems.

Why should I have to clean up after them. There is no job as far as im aware of called babysitter or maid?

And if I am reported it honestly wouldn't even be the first time I have had this exact conversation with SE and had my Sub overturned. So GL on that

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Originally Posted by Curisu

You Tank You Pull is only acceptable in one case.

When the DPS takes a add during a pull to then stand in Narnia while the add is behind a object or outside of Provoke range.
I will not leave the healer Bubble and placed aoe field to grab that single add.

You pulled it, you bring it back to its friends.


Often the DDs pulling do not know how to pull.
They just attack the monster and let them run wild everywhere. That can lead to much more stress for the Tank and Healer.

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YPYT is not acceptable at all.

Unmend, Shield Lob, Lightning Shot and Tomahawk exist, they all generate increased enmity and are ranged attacks.

Y'know I used to be in favour of you pull you tank, but eventually I just stopped being bothered by it. Sometimes the DPS will be faster even if I'm using sprint, but I'll be able to grab any mobs with one GCD+ oGCD aoe.

It's just a big non issue, why be bothered by it? Unless the other player is actively being malicious, but then you have a whole other problem to deal with.

YTYP is fine as a reaction to over-pulling in the sense that if you and the healer set a pace, and the DPS oversteps that pace, you can... correct... that behavior by keeping your pace. As long as your legitimately trying to progress the dungeon and keep everyone alive, a DPS trying to overpull is being extremely rude.

It is also a moral imperative if someone pulls while a party member is watching a cutscene. Do that every time.

YTYP is not acceptable if your using it to be petty that someone grabbed a mob before you that you were going to pull, or accidentally agro'd another group, or if you continue to refuse to tank anything else after.

Mistakes happen and people sometimes lose track of things or get overeager. Always give people the benefit of the doubt, and remember that of all the flavors to choose to be, never chose to be salty.

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Originally Posted by NightHour

YPYT is not acceptable at all.

Unmend, Shield Lob, Lightning Shot and Tomahawk exist, they all generate increased enmity and are ranged attacks.

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Nah, they got legs, they can move that one mob to where everyone else is clustered. Three of us sprinted and moved to a nice little clustered corner so the mobs can suffer maximum aoe range, we're not gonna displace ourselves to move to the back of Narnia because you lacked environmental awareness.

Either be in range of aggro lobs or have fun with your boxing match.

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Originally Posted by Conando

How so? If you want to be "optimal" and do your burst during movement then you should stay in the tank's range if you rip aggro. The only time I've seen it in the past 2 weeks is with Pictomancer players. Like I've had a Summoner Bahamut instantly and manage to take aggro, but they ran it into range of provoke. I don't make them tank it but it's annoying to have to move everything else because they sit there out of range.

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DPS pulling mobs away from the tank and dying wasn't part of the previous conversation, so it seems more like a deflection that a logical response to my post.

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Originally Posted by E4EO

Y'know I used to be in favour of you pull you tank, but eventually I just stopped being bothered by it. Sometimes the DPS will be faster even if I'm using sprint, but I'll be able to grab any mobs with one GCD+ oGCD aoe.

It's just a big non issue, why be bothered by it? Unless the other player is actively being malicious, but then you have a whole other problem to deal with.

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If anyone is speeding ahead of me, 99% of the time it's the healer. If it's a long wall to wall pull, sometimes I AoE an extra time or two before moving on just so I don't lose it. I think the healers just assume that I'm parking myself there and run ahead hoping I follow suit. Luckily for them, that's always part of the plan. :p

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

DPS pulling mobs away from the tank and dying wasn't part of the previous conversation, so it seems more like a deflection that a logical response to my post.

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The start of the quote chain was asking Pictos to chill with their rotation because they are doing exactly what I said.

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

Ive been seeing significantly more of this since dt started-
Tank says nothing for 90% then gets mad on final pull because sm1 else pulled. Refuses to tank the mobs and even the boss.
Same story every time -

Where exactly do the GMs stand on this issue. Where exactly do the tos stand on this issue? And where do you the players stand on this issue.


Is it against tos?
If not should it be?
Are there exceptions where its okay to refuse to tank?

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If a Mob is chasing you, just stop attacking it and run over to the tank, and they will naturally take aggro from it. This is not rocket science.
While its not hard to pick up trash in the initial engagement if you just mash ranged attacks, it IS VERY hard to do that if a Pictomancer decides to use the funny hammer attack to open or a Summoner decided to immediately summon Bahamut.
That said, none of this is going to be a problem after the patch tonight when Tank AoEs will generate more enmity.

As it has been said, it's just about and will always be about communication (IG) and point of view (here).

For a bit of context, I play all the jobs but healers are my favorites followed by tanks.

When I started tanking or when I discovered new dungeons I remember seeing dps going crazy on pulling new packs or me being rescued from pack A to B without any words and thus, not even understanding what was happening.
Since then, even if I tank pretty well now, I think (point of view) that healers or dps going ahead and pulling adds without any prior notice (communication) are a pain to play with.

At the end it's all about respect. I respect my mates when I play, I try to go at their pace, whatever my job is. I wait for CS, I try to let some time for a newcomer to discover a dungeon when it's his first time, etc.
If you, as an other player, that can't wait 1 more minute in a whole dungeon cannot stand that, for me, you are a pain.
I usually do W2W, and if I can't because I'm not confident in my healers, in my dps, or at the dungeon specificities, I just warn everyone in the chat.
And if, despite all that, you start a fight during a CS, yep, I won't come until the CS is over so bear with it. If you pull and run like a chicken, yep, bear with it or come to me. And if the dungeon is a nightmare to deal with, I just quit because there is plenty of yellow quest that are waiting for me that I will enjoyway more..
It's not about ego or whatever, it's about what I think is respect (point of view). I can change my way of acting or playing if you communicate somehow with me (coomunication again) but otherwise, I'm totally fin to be the jerk of the one I call a jerk.

If Something is wrong, I try communication, if that doesn't work, I leave. It's for every job that I play, not just tank nor healers. There is no good answers, it's just my answer to that kind of situation.

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Originally Posted by NightHour

YPYT is not acceptable at all.

Unmend, Shield Lob, Lightning Shot and Tomahawk exist, they all generate increased enmity and are ranged attacks.

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But pulling, when the tank explicitly states they doesn't really want to go go at this pace, is ?

I don't understand this mentality.

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Originally Posted by Lonely_Lily

As it has been said, it's just about and will always be about communication (IG) and point of view (here).

For a bit of context, I play all the jobs but healers are my favorites followed by tanks.

When I started tanking or when I discovered new dungeons I remember seeing dps going crazy on pulling new packs or me being rescued from pack A to B without any words and thus, not even understanding what was happening.
Since then, even if I tank pretty well now, I think (point of view) that healers or dps going ahead and pulling adds without any prior notice (communication) are a pain to play with.

At the end it's all about respect. I respect my mates when I play, I try to go at their pace, whatever my job is. I wait for CS, I try to let some time for a newcomer to discover a dungeon when it's his first time, etc.
If you, as an other player, that can't wait 1 more minute in a whole dungeon cannot stand that, for me, you are a pain.
I usually do W2W, and if I can't because I'm not confident in my healers, in my dps, or at the dungeon specificities, I just warn everyone in the chat.
And if, despite all that, you start a fight during a CS, yep, I won't come until the CS is over so bear with it. If you pull and run like a chicken, yep, bear with it or come to me. And if the dungeon is a nightmare to deal with, I just quit because there is plenty of yellow quest that are waiting for me that I will enjoyway more..
It's not about ego or whatever, it's about what I think is respect (point of view). I can change my way of acting or playing if you communicate somehow with me (coomunication again) but otherwise, I'm totally fin to be the jerk of the one I call a jerk.

If Something is wrong, I try communication, if that doesn't work, I leave. It's for every job that I play, not just tank nor healers. There is no good answers, it's just my answer to that kind of situation.

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That's how it works at least on Chaos.

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Originally Posted by Conando

The start of the quote chain was asking Pictos to chill with their rotation because they are doing exactly what I said.

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And I'm explaining to you why DPS shouldn't "chill with their rotation".

If they're pulling aggro, throw your ranged attack/voke behind you while you're running between packs. Staying at the top of the enmity table for a tank isn't difficult in the current version of the game and you absolutely don't need people to sandbag their damage so that you can do so.

Whenever it comes to this topic, I am surprised how many are pointing fingers at the tank.

Your are so quick to quote the rules that the "you pull, you tank" mindset counts as "lethargic behavior" while, at the same time, you are so ready to ignore the fact that repeated and intentional non-tank-pulling is also reportable (if preceded communication failed, of course).

It is always the same "arguments".
1) uSe SpRiNt - Sprint is the ONLY tool a tank has to move faster. DPS - even healers now - often have more than one charges of dashing forward ADDITIONAL to Sprint, so it is impossible to outrun them.

Moreover, DPS pullers are wont to run ahead BEFORE the mob is killed down. With that damage now missing, it takes longer to finish it off. And even if the tank follows suit, the moment the mob gets dissolved from a bundle to a moving line, AOE's won't reach every enemy anymore, casts are uncomfortable to finish (if doable at all) and while it might FEEL faster, because you're on the move, in the end it isn't. So even apart from basic courtesy, it is no real gain whatsoever. Quite the contrary.

Plus, the "refined" way of using Sprint as a tank is to activate it JUST BEFORE reaching the following mob so it lasts not only 20 seconds but also long enough to make it to the next mob. Having to activate it earlier, just because one DPS did so, only results in Sprint wearing off ere the pull is completed, the tank taking avoidable damage and the healer spending resources that could have been saved up.

Why making this a race in the first place? It is unnecessarily stressful.

2) iT's So EaSy To TaKe BaCk AgGrO - This is beside the point. This isn't about how easy it is to regain enmity, it's about decency. Organisation. Every role has its part to play, so let them. A DPS hitting one enemy, they automatically get targeted by ALL other enemies. And yes, while it USUALLY takes only one strike for the tank to be main target again, due to the slow reaction time of mobs, they spread all over the room and the tank's AOE's don't have infinite radius. So it might take more than one hit.

Apart from that, the chaotic positioning only results in - again - everyone doing less damage and the whole encounter taking more time.

Furthermore, that every tank's ability to gain and to maintain enmity got easier over the time only shows that people never learned to behave the proper way, so the only solution in the end was to change the system, because players couldn't. If anything, that's a sad testament. Not a valid counter-argument.

3) There's a reason why tanks are setting the pace - maybe the healer is new/slower or the damage is lower and I have to use up all my cooldowns. The next pull isn't going to be wall to wall, then or I'm risking a wipe.

(1/2) Continues on second post due to length restrictions.

(2/2) Continuation of previous post.

That being said, we could save the most time by not arguing and not dying in the first place. And at the end of the day, a dungeon run is a group effort, so why not making it as chill and smooth as possible (and ultimately, even FASTER) instead of ruining anyone's experience?

Last but not least this discussion is nice and all but it would imply that every DPS had a special reason to pull, either to make it faster (which they don't) or because they're under the misconception of helping (which could easily be clarified by a short exchange). While that might be true in SOME cases, it's disregarding the sad truth that some just think it funny going on everyone's nerves and they know they can't be vote dismissed during combat, so they dash from mob to mob, from boss to boss because they seem to have no other joy in life.

As a tank, I personally abide by SE's rules, so I will still do my job even if I don't agree with DPS pullers and even if they don't listen to any pleas to stop. Still, I'm not very fond of the idea that I'm having to wait until after the encounter to file a report (I repeat, non-tank-pulling is also inappropriate and problematic for several reasons) and that one impatient idiot gets to decide how three other people are experiencing their dungeon/raid/roulette. This is extremely frustrating.

On another note, there's a whole healer strike going on because - among other reasons - they wish to feel more needed and they have many sympathizers. But a tank being shrugged off as a laughable role and only needed on paper to be able to queue into a dungeon, then gets treated however the rest of the party pleases and having to put up with it without being allowed to take any actions against it and GOD FORBID they're complaining is perfectly fine, yes?

I wonder why we have such a lack of people willing to play tank...

Never have problems with DPS pulling ahead of me when I tank, ever. If you deal with this a lot, you're simply not minimizing the time you spend between pulls and standing around at the ends of fights. You might think you do, but you demonstrably aren't. Next pull when mobs are near last GCD. Sprint between pulls. Use Provoke to flag mobs in combat early (longest range tank ability) so that they only have you to look at on the enmity table.

Don't act surprised when you get vote kicked for willfully deciding not to perform your role, since posting on the forums isn't going to change that.

They try to pressure the tank to adhere to their playstyle by threatening report.
99% of these accusations they make against tanks about ego and whatnot can be said about them as well.

That said, I'd like to thank these DPS personally, for letting other people join active duties.
Plus, you have 30 minutes more to be terminally online in Limsa, so ithere's an upside.

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Originally Posted by angelar_

Never have problems with DPS pulling ahead of me when I tank, ever. If you deal with this a lot, you're simply not minimizing the time you spend between pulls and standing around at the ends of fights. You might think you do, but you demonstrably aren't. Next pull when mobs are near last GCD. Sprint between pulls. Use Provoke to flag mobs in combat early (longest range tank ability) so that they only have you to look at on the enmity table.

Don't act surprised when you get vote kicked for willfully deciding not to perform your role, since posting on the forums isn't going to change that.

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Like it or not tanks and healers are being quite scarce and no one gains anything by pissing them off or just making them to give up the role to join the already bloated dps files

Its ok when someone grabs a mob that the tank missed or gather the next group for the tank DEPENDING on the context, but the reaction of "you pull, you tank" is caused most of the time because it happens on a constant basis and it eventually starts to rub on people's nerves. And I might remark that a tank going slow is a sin for some but having dps that deal as much damage as a tank/healer is okay and you just have to cope with it until the dungeon ends

Your solution to kick the tank instead of speaking to them is basically stupid, you remain with no tank while the tank instantly gets another group that hopefully dont turn their role into a job or just being jerks about it. Be right or wrong you will always lose more than the tank/healer that is kicked unless they are so downright horrible at their role that a 3 man team can do it better than letting them remain. And once again often I see horrible(not bad, I mean AWFUL) dps player and in ten years I can count with one hand the times some of those were kicked out and still have spare fingers and we are not speaking about the horrible tanks that have problems to hold more than a single enemy, but just people that for reasons dont go wall to wall

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Originally Posted by angelar_

Never have problems with DPS pulling ahead of me when I tank, ever. If you deal with this a lot, you're simply not minimizing the time you spend between pulls and standing around at the ends of fights. You might think you do, but you demonstrably aren't. Next pull when mobs are near last GCD. Sprint between pulls. Use Provoke to flag mobs in combat early (longest range tank ability) so that they only have you to look at on the enmity table.

Don't act surprised when you get vote kicked for willfully deciding not to perform your role, since posting on the forums isn't going to change that.

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So who are DPS to decide what the tank's role is? Why did Square Enix even bother with Provoke and ranged attacks?
And who decided Tanks shouldn't pull anyway?

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Originally Posted by Angelivia

It is always the same "arguments".
1) uSe SpRiNt - Sprint is the ONLY tool a tank has to move faster. DPS - even healers now - often have more than one charges of dashing forward ADDITIONAL to Sprint, so it is impossible to outrun them.

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I'd like to point out that Tanks do have gap closers.

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Originally Posted by Lonely_Lily

When I started tanking or when I discovered new dungeons I remember seeing dps going crazy on pulling new packs or me being rescued from pack A to B without any words and thus, not even understanding what was happening.
Since then, even if I tank pretty well now, I think (point of view) that healers or dps going ahead and pulling adds without any prior notice (communication) are a pain to play with.

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Thank you ! I 100% agree with you. Yesterday i was doing a dungeon from DT (the expansion is out for like a month now it's still really recent), DPS sprint accros the first area pulling every single living soul around and running back screaming like a child to the tank and healer to save him. I asked them to not pull, next area, DPS and heal pull everything Wall to Wall and Recue me into the second pack because i was not fast enouth because i was grabing the agro on the first pack. This is infuriating, they were nice enough to kick me tho.

I don't care about WtoW and i don't care about slow dungeon according to healer or dps preferences. But please, respect other people, and communicate, you wanna rush that content like your life depends on it ? Ask for it and see if the whole team is cool, the only result will be 4 players super motivated to clear as fast as possible.

I have the feeling that the YPYT problem is coming from a lack of resistance in the smallest inconviniences in the game, the tank is slower than me ? He's bad, he needs to adjust to me. He is not taking care of the mobs i pulled ? It's not my fault i'm the victim, report tank.

I love tanking since 1.0 and ARR and thank god those namazu size brain fart are a really small part of the community and the black list is doing a great job avoiding them.

We all need, as a community, to be careful not to fall into the Wow community stereotype 'git gud or get reported'. We have an awesome game populated with awesome people. Let's try to communicate and respect each other, it will only result in a more happy and relaxed playstyle.

If someone else is pulling things a head of me, it's clear I'm not moving as fast as I should be. If someone dies because I failed to get aggro, that's on me. If I die overpulling, that's on me. Granted, I love seeing how much punishment I can take as a tank, so I'm usually gunning to the wall anyway.

This is just how I play, though.
Side note: Apologies goes out to any healer I may have stressed out from my shenanigans.

as a tank, i like to lead my group with a tempo, make sure my pulls are as good as possible, and have a good enmity. on the other hand, i don't appreciate DPSs who get ahead of the tank, to get to the mobs, because i don't go fast enough... to gain what in the end, 1 or 2 minutes... for me, you pull, you tank. no pity for this type of DPS.

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Originally Posted by Andryl

Thank you ! I 100% agree with you. Yesterday i was doing a dungeon from DT (the expansion is out for like a month now it's still really recent), DPS sprint accros the first area pulling every single living soul around and running back screaming like a child to the tank and healer to save him. I asked them to not pull, next area, DPS and heal pull everything Wall to Wall and Recue me into the second pack because i was not fast enouth because i was grabing the agro on the first pack. This is infuriating, they were nice enough to kick me tho.

I don't care about WtoW and i don't care about slow dungeon according to healer or dps preferences. But please, respect other people, and communicate, you wanna rush that content like your life depends on it ? Ask for it and see if the whole team is cool, the only result will be 4 players super motivated to clear as fast as possible.

I have the feeling that the YPYT problem is coming from a lack of resistance in the smallest inconviniences in the game, the tank is slower than me ? He's bad, he needs to adjust to me. He is not taking care of the mobs i pulled ? It's not my fault i'm the victim, report tank.

I love tanking since 1.0 and ARR and thank god those namazu size brain fart are a really small part of the community and the black list is doing a great job avoiding them.

We all need, as a community, to be careful not to fall into the Wow community stereotype 'git gud or get reported'. We have an awesome game populated with awesome people. Let's try to communicate and respect each other, it will only result in a more happy and relaxed playstyle.

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I wonder how many of those DPS who call the tanks crybabies, childish and similar would say if tanks and healers started kicking dps whenever they underperform below optimal standards...

And before someone starts saying that would be parsing and therefore ilegal a person can just take notes of how long the mobs take to die and kick the one the lowest on the aggro meter and the "differences in gameplay" reason still exists.

You dont want to go that slippery hole and theres already some signs since a few years ago of "my rules are your rules but your rules arent mine" kind of behaviour

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Originally Posted by BelegErkhten

If a Mob is chasing you, just stop attacking it and run over to the tank, and they will naturally take aggro from it. This is not rocket science.
While its not hard to pick up trash in the initial engagement if you just mash ranged attacks, it IS VERY hard to do that if a Pictomancer decides to use the funny hammer attack to open or a Summoner decided to immediately summon Bahamut.
That said, none of this is going to be a problem after the patch tonight when Tank AoEs will generate more enmity.

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Yep. If I pull something off a tank (happens with SMN a lot, actually lol Though I do tend to save my actual summons for when the party comes to a stop) I try to stand with the tank until they get its attention back. That has always been the best way to handle it, in my opinion. If someone pulls something off of me, I'll provoke or use my ranged attack to get it off of them, but if they decide to turn tail and head back down the corridor, I'm not chasing them too far, especially since I've probably got over a dozen enemies on my plate already and the rest of the party is there. It's a case of "help me help you". :p It's kinda like when someone runs away from a group with their stack marker. Not much you can do but watch them go.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Yep. If I pull something off a tank (happens with SMN a lot, actually lol Though I do tend to save my actual summons for when the party comes to a stop) I try to stand with the tank until they get its attention back. That has always been the best way to handle it, in my opinion. If someone pulls something off of me, I'll provoke or use my ranged attack to get it off of them, but if they decide to turn tail and head back down the corridor, I'm not chasing them too far, especially since I've probably got over a dozen enemies on my plate already and the rest of the party is there. It's a case of "help me help you". :p It's kinda like when someone runs away from a group with their stack marker. Not much you can do but watch them go.

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Yeah no, if you accidentally gain emnity, you should definitely run to the tank to get it off of you.

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Originally Posted by Andryl

I asked them to not pull, next area, DPS and heal pull everything Wall to Wall and Recue me into the second pack because i was not fast enouth because i was grabing the agro on the first pack. This is infuriating, they were nice enough to kick me tho.

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Well, not saying I gonna do the same to you as the people you had, but I can explain why it's happening to you.

- You shouldn't try to grab agro on the first pack if it causes you to stop running.

- Pop print pre-pull, run into the first pack, do one AOE and keep running to the next pack. You can try to range attack the stray as you run if you feel like it, but even that is not really needed.

- It doesn't matter if you didn't get all the mobs or if the DPS pulling off you. This is not WoW, a stray mobs or two ain't gonna one hit non-tank.

- You can stop once you at the last pack, at this point the other players will pile on you and you can peel the mobs off them.


This is pretty much just standard DF run, and because of that most people just gonna do it a lot of time out of muscle memory, myself included. I usually also pop sprint and start running with the tank and I don't stop because I also assume the tank won't stop. But once a bluemoon (maybe 1/10 times) the tank stop because they thought they need to gather the mob first, I usually catch myself in time before I pulled the next pack and just go back to where the tank is. So again, I'm not gonna be one of those people who pulled than scream at you, but ngl, it's always a bit bemusing seeing a tank stop and do 4-5 GCD to gather the mob. It's just ... not necessary.


So just treat what I said as an advise. The people who want to speed run ain't gonna be mad at the tank because of a few temporary stray mob when the group is running, as long as the tank peel off them once the group hit the wall. It's just kinda like an unwritten agreement.

I want to help you out man, as a tank that has mained tank since late Heavensward: Creator tier on literally all of the tanks. So, as far as mitigation goes you have Arm's Length and Reprisal as well, don't forget that they also exist. Reprisal is a powerful 10s duration, 60s CD (so up for every pull) aoe mitigation. It lowers damage by 10 percent, so it stacks perfectly with all other mitigation. You should make good use of it. Have only one CD running at a time, unless it's something like Reprisal and a tank cooldown, or Arm's Length and a weaker or shorter CD. You will eventually get TBN: which is a 25 percent shield based on your own HP. You should always, always use this on CD when it's available and ideally, with something else for mitigation as it makes TBN stronger since it takes longer to pop it. Always bank 3k mana while pulling, and never go below it, so that you can always pop a TBN.

Living Dead was a "meme" and "risky" before, but it's absolutely NOT that way now, whenever you feel like you are getting chewed up, use it. It has 10s to pop and activate, and ONE AoE attack is enough in a pack to top you back to FULL HP and you STILL have the rest of the 10s of pure invuln of where you can't die until it wears off. It's seriously good now. I'd honestly just tell your healer that you intend to use it, so they cna just save CDs and pump DPS on a pull that you know you and the healer might have used a lot on, and then pop something like Arm's Length to slow down the mob's attacks for 10s. Arm's Length slows attacks when enemies hit you. Seriously don't forget to use that.

What i'd suggest in a typical pull, is to start off with a dedicated tank CD, like Rampart and TBN. Then, when Rampart is about to wear off, pop Arm's Length and Reprisal, and another TBN. After that wears off, pop an Oblation and another TBN, etc... The idea is, you want one "dedicated" tank CD, either rampart, Shadow Wall (or the upgraded version at lvl 92) to be ready, or, some short CDs like oblations and TBN with your invuln.

You wait until your CD combo expires before using another one. You don't want the mitigation to be "wasted" like popping Rampart and only getting 5s of the value of the CD. Try to stretch every CD as much as you can.

Another thing is: when the mob pack hits you all at once at the very end of a pull when you are just settling it: make sure you pop the CD 1s before all of the mobs are going to slam into you and auto you at once.

Make sure the mobs are nice and packed as tight as they can be for your melee/ranged to dump CDs into and hit as many of them as possible.

Also just to add my 2 cents since I've tanked since late HW: you are ego tripping if you have "you pull you tank". Get over yourselves. Stop being cry babies. I've tanked literally every Ultimate except for TOP from start to finish. I've tanked every raid tier from Sigmascape seriously... you are ego tripping. You have no right to "demand" the party conform to you. You exist to smooth out pulls and make sure every one can nuke things efficiently. And not die. Get better if you die. It's somewhat on the healer, but every tank except DRK can basically live forever, and if you manage your CDs on DRK and your dps CDs, you can smash through most packs since DRK has outrageous dps potential anyways, with Abyssal used on a pack healing you to max from one use on a thick mob pack.

I started on Gladiator when you still had to level it for CROSS CLASS abilities lol. I was a little nervous my first couple of dungeons...but I learned to wall to wall during Heavensward on PLD when it was garbage. I promise you that I'm painfully average in the intelligence department. If I can go from a total newb to being confident to tank ultimates easily, I sincerely promise you that you can wall to wall in a dungeon.

IT IS LEVEL 100 MY FRIENDS IT IS TIME TO LEARN TO WALL TO WALL AS THE STANDARD. IF YOU CANNOT DO THIS, PLEASE DO NOT QUEUE AS TANK. THERE ARE EXPECTATIONS THAT THE COMMUNITY HAS AT HIGH LEVEL AND WALL TO WALL IN DUNGEONS IS SUCH A THING.

"I just want to make it easier on..." NO. It's max level / high level. If they are so devoid of intelligence or the will to get better BY LEVEL 100...they need to do something else. This is a video game. Video games are meant to have some modicum of challenge. Instead of getting in the fetal position and crying when adversity hits you, learn from it. Say, "damn, GG, we go again guys!" and GO AGAIN. It's a GAME. FAILURE is NORMAL and OKAY if you are willing to learn.

In level 30? Sure. Fine. Get used to new tools. LEVEL 70 AND ABOVE WHEN EVERY TANK HAS GOOD COOLDOWNS? No. Get better. You are the tank. You signed up to tank. You signed up for the COMMUNITY EXPECTATION of wall to wall. Don't like it? Don't tank. Same on healer. If you are so weak minded that you won't try to learn and be better especially when you have SO MANY COOLDOWNS on tank and healer it's absurd. If you have a phys ranged, they can also blow their 90s CD and have it up for one of the boss AoEs as a pack CD.

You can actually, as a melee, tank a few hits with Arm's Length and slow the mobs hitting the tank since they can get aggro in ONE SWING now lol.

Stop egoing. Be a team player. Be better. Learn. Get experience. Stop being weak and demanding the world warp to your expectations, and rise above as a player. Serve your team. Your team likes to do dungeons fast. They like smooth dungeons. Learn to do both at the same time. It's more than possible. Paladin is tanky af. GNB is tanky af (esp. if you use the tech where you Corundum early during a pull, so you have the excog, and then have a free heal while the CD of it ticks down to get essentially two excogs out of it). WAR is literally god mode.

DRK, when CDs are managed well, can also be tanky as hell with basically on CD TBN's.

You have soy energy if you legit would rather cry and complain as a tank "having dps and healers dictate pulls instead of the tank" instead of rising to the expecation that your team has for you. They are doing wall to wall because THEY BELEIVE THAT YOU CAN DO IT AS WELL. Take it as a badge of honor that they believe that you are MENTALLY CAPABLE of doing wall to wall.

it is UNACCEPTABLE in Dawn Trail content when healers and tanks have SO MANY COOLDOWNS to NOT do wall to wall. I leveled WHM thru DT. I'm a tank main and a melee main first and foremost. I had literally zero trouble because I READ MY KIT and was proactive rather than crying about how "hard the new dungeons are". My team expected me to figure it out and I did.

It feels GOOD to LEARN and do NEW THINGS and TRY and CHALLENGE yourself. Imagine being a human being, a product of hundreds of thousands of years of evolution, and disrespecting your ancestors and everything that got you here instead of using your hugely privileged position to do better. To be better.

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Originally Posted by Aurelius2625

words, a lot of them

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Holy shit that's a lotta words.

Anyway not all games are about challenge (ie Sims, Animal Crossing, etc) but I get your point
The deeps can eat shit but if my healer tells me they're returning and need a minute to get their groove back, trying a new class, are drunk (and why not? This is a video game and they're ACTUALLY about entertainment) then you bet your bippy I'll do it pack by pack.

I get the MLG raiders and allat like to min/max and crunch numbers and theorycraft and all that jive, but buddy when you're runnin' standard difficulty roulettes you don't gotta be speedrunnin' shit. If you don't got like 30 minutes don't queue.

Oh and just so my comment is relevant, I couldn't give a fuck less what the deeps are up to I'll just provoke/range the stragglers once I've hit the barrier.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

And I'm explaining to you why DPS shouldn't "chill with their rotation".

If they're pulling aggro, throw your ranged attack/voke behind you while you're running between packs. Staying at the top of the enmity table for a tank isn't difficult in the current version of the game and you absolutely don't need people to sandbag their damage so that you can do so.

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What part of "they're out of range" don't you get. Whatever Pictos are upto, they're back in Narnia despite apparently being impatient enough to not wait for a pack to be set up for AoE. But it's a moot point now anyway since they increased the aggro generation on AoE combos because of this.

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Originally Posted by Aurelius2625

"I just want to make it easier on..." NO. It's max level / high level. If they are so devoid of intelligence or the will to get better BY LEVEL 100...they need to do something else. This is a video game. Video games are meant to have some modicum of challenge.

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Everyone can have his own opinion about how to play the game, in that regard, I totally desagree with your way of thinking, especially when a few sentence later you speak about being a "team player".
You seems to desagree but I truly think that adapting your gameplay to your team to make it easer to everyone else, if you are willing to or if you can, is the best way to play. At least, it's MY best way to play and I don't care if we are at content level 30, 50 or 100.

YPYT is not a answer to every dps or healer pulling, I am not even sure it's an acceptable answer at all. YPYT is an answer, among many, from miscomunication, impatient people -sometimes jerks - and some sort of reccurent behavior.
You cannot talk about "egoing" for every situation.

And the most important thing, "Team play" goes both ways.

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Originally Posted by Aurelius2625

Lot of words with little to no substance

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Not that I'm against W2W but a lot of healers cant handle that, who are you to tell people not to queue to normal content because they cant W2W?

I always make a point of asking the healer what pull size they want, this is not savage, chill, and you are talking about people having ego lol.

YPYT is absolutely reportable as the tank is essentially using game mechanics to kill you

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Originally Posted by LilyPendragon

YPYT is absolutely reportable as the tank is essentially using game mechanics to kill you

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i don't get the YPYT mentality anyways, if is see a green square or yellow triangle i have to make it red.

It is a question of common courtesy. If the tank is moving at a reasonable pace, then there is no reason for you to move ahead of him to pull. To do so is bad manners. If he is moving slow, use your words and ask him to speed up.
On the other side of that, tanks should understand that, sooner or later, you're gonna run into these kinds of assholes for whom common courtesy is an utterly foreign concept, and it's not your job to "punish" them. That's pure ego talking. Just roll your eyes and let it go.
You trying to get them banned for over-reacting to your bad manners is equally as egotistical, especially if you're the kind of person who hits sprint every pull to try and bait the tank into reacting this way.

At the end of the day, you can't control what other people do. If you don't like it, stick to trusts or tank yourself.

Ypyt stems from an era that somewhat compare to the old ages of MMO's.
Nowadays it's still being lived, less out of necessity but more out of entitlement.
To get mad, threaten to kick someone etc. is rather archaic/draconic in my opinion.

If there really should occur a situation, then feel free to talk about it. You might be insecure because you're new to tanking and still have to fully grasp your skillset etc.
But those tanks with a couple of dungeonclears under their belts shouldn't be so entitled.
I personally am fine if other ppl pull more stuff but that's something that happens rarely, since I usually pull everything (as long as the healer is able to keep up). All it needs for me is to collect aggro and do the same stuff, I've been doing for years ^^

Also,
my healers may pull anything they want, anytime (IF they feel like they need more action). They can count on me not to throw a tantrum but rather do what I'm in there for: Tanking.

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Originally Posted by RatCopter

It is a question of common courtesy. If the tank is moving at a reasonable pace, then there is no reason for you to move ahead of him to pull. To do so is bad manners. If he is moving slow, use your words and ask him to speed up.
On the other side of that, tanks should understand that, sooner or later, you're gonna run into these kinds of assholes for whom common courtesy is an utterly foreign concept, and it's not your job to "punish" them. That's pure ego talking. Just roll your eyes and let it go.
You trying to get them banned for over-reacting to your bad manners is equally as egotistical, especially if you're the kind of person who hits sprint every pull to try and bait the tank into reacting this way.

At the end of the day, you can't control what other people do. If you don't like it, stick to trusts or tank yourself.

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As I said before in the post, It's understandable if it's maybe at the start of the pull, or if you've spoke before. But alot of what I've seen whenever I don't w2w (when healer is struggling) is mid way through a fight with a pack DPS will grab the next pack to add it to the fight, that's where alot of the problems come in, they haven't asked anyone anything, they don't have any idea what the tank and healer CD's are looking like. In that situation, you pull you tank until both the healer and I are ready to take that off you, your health bar is now a shield bar for the tank. Melee DPS has always been the most selfish and ego driven role in MMO's, I think in FF14 the issue is primarily the melee DPS don't really have a complex rotation or play style either so to make themselves feel important they have to be about doing everything super fast big pulls etc, they don't ask anyone else in the group, they don't comm at all most of the time.