What are your unrealistic expectations for the upcoming Combat Live Letter?

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I’m fine with a single melee having no positionals

There are legit things I like about melee that no other role has but I hate positionals. You’d think in 6 classes they could make one not have them considering we have 3 casters and one is a physical range and another is half a melee

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I also hate positionals and would sometimes like to play melee. However if they do this, I do hope it's gonna be viper, else it would just be removing positionals on already existing jobs and alienate all their mains in the process... Don't do them like they did mch mains with procs in the past.

I definitely hope that it doesn't happen to Viper, because that's one of two melee design aesthetics that I've been looking forward to playing for a long time, and new jobs get enough flak as it is in terms of simplification relative to established jobs. People are going to be looking for ways to dismiss it as easy to justify to themselves why they didn't switch from their preferred melee. I hope that the development team take this into account and actually go out of their way to make it more mechanically demanding from the outset.

The entire fun of melee is built around visuospatial thinking and understanding how the boss moves. That's why wall boss design is awful, and why fights with lots of boss repositioning and smaller hitboxes are where the role really becomes exciting. If you just want to pay attention to button sequences and not pay attention to mob positioning, then you have two ranged subtypes to choose from already. There is literally no reason for you to pick up a melee job.

The entire fun of rphys is built around management of procs and priorities and understanding how to triage rng triggers in their rotation. Can I have my MCH ammo back so that I can consider the idea of all melees being positional reliant?

There is a million and one reasons to play a melee that don’t involve positionals

1) there is no other role that has long looping rotations like SAM and DRG that have branching paths that return together later. These rotations are easily the most interesting of any classes “1-2-3” filler
2) MNK shares BLM’s prestige of being very in depth with its optimisation which overall I prefer MNK’s style of optimisation of using its attacks in different orders rather than BLM’s “your movement options are also damage tools”
3) classes like RPR have very punchy GCD animations that the casters struggle to replicate, the tanks are a sort of halfway but the melees are very good in this regard
4) certain instances of the MSQ just work better thematically on a melee (for example the fight with Zenos), they are more dynamic and they fit the WOL better
5) melees just by nature of their role so so much more damage than the other roles, we all like doing big damage so that’s something to consider
6) few other jobs have the level of static rotation CD and potential built in drift that the melees have

there are many other reasons but that is some reasons why I like melees but don’t like positionals. Between 6 melees there is plenty of design space to have one that doesn’t have positionals (you can even trade it for higher mechanical complexity). That’s why we have job variety

That the warrior's hypnotizing yellow whirlpool hiding our fashion and looking ugly being cut at the bottom when we are on a mount will be gone forever, or at least when we are not in combat.

More in depth "wish" or dream whatever

1. Again PLD gets reverted into the old cute paladin and cover becomes useful and clemency (also less self sustain on magic attacks but better target healing)
2. Healers are made fun
3. Warrior gets removed, a total rebalance/rework.
4. 2 minute meta goes for ever
5. Tank stances return but actually designed good this time.
6. The new jobs are actually cool and fun and not boring.
7. Summoner gets casts times.

I would like a TS buff or the Bootshine proc to the job UI gauge for MNK(mostly want the bootshine thing), I don't know what I did to my buff icons but it's sometimes difficult to track my proc because it's sliding all over the place with party member buffs during the 2min burst windows.
Another flank positional would be cool too, the RPRs can keep sitting at the rear using their TN cooldown or whatever.

Positionals would make a lot more sense as a class/job exclusive trait for PUG/MNK.

As a controller player, I would also like some button consolidation for straight forward 1-2-3 combos.

I guess these two are fairly realistic wishes, but perhaps not in time for Dawntrail. So for something that's apparently not going to happen, I would love to see gemstones for Leviathan, Ramuh and Shiva egi.

the only way I'd accept Viper not having any positionals is if it actually has enough engagement in its kit to justify not needing them. how likely that is to happen however remains to be seen, but let's just say that I'm not going to get my hopes up for that.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I definitely hope that it doesn't happen to Viper, because that's one of two melee design aesthetics that I've been looking forward to playing for a long time, and new jobs get enough flak as it is in terms of simplification relative to established jobs. People are going to be looking for ways to dismiss it as easy to justify to themselves why they didn't switch from their preferred melee. I hope that the development team take this into account and actually go out of their way to make it more mechanically demanding from the outset.

The entire fun of melee is built around visuospatial thinking and understanding how the boss moves. That's why wall boss design is awful, and why fights with lots of boss repositioning and smaller hitboxes are where the role really becomes exciting. If you just want to pay attention to button sequences and not pay attention to mob positioning, then you have two ranged subtypes to choose from already. There is literally no reason for you to pick up a melee job.

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I'd love it if Viper was the most mechanically demanding class in the game and had a positional on most attacks.

Stormblood era job design which is the opposite of what they said theyre going to do.

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Originally Posted by Rehayem

I'm more concerned how much they have butchered AST. Did they remove cards? Did they revamp them? Did they make a copy paste of WHM?

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cards and space magic are the identity.. theyll remain but changed

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Originally Posted by Cynric

I'd love it if Viper was the most mechanically demanding class in the game and had a positional on most attacks.

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I really don't understand how people can enjoy positionals in the slightest, bosses are always being moved around by tanks or mechanics so you get cucked for a very marginal damage increase each time anyway.

Also would probably cut down on people telling others how to play their class properly if they didnt have to remember to go flank.rear.side/whatever, screw that garb im far too old to care enough about a marginal dps increase while all that noise is going on.

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Originally Posted by Kathryn

I really don't understand how people can enjoy positionals in the slightest, bosses are always being moved around by tanks or mechanics so you get cucked for a very marginal damage increase each time anyway.

Also would probably cut down on people telling others how to play their class properly if they didnt have to remember to go flank.rear.side/whatever, screw that garb im far too old to care enough about a marginal dps increase while all that noise is going on.

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Same way some people enjoy casts even though mechanics are always making them move around, and just like with casts you can map all the boss spins and position resets along with true north mapping in a fight to land most positionals.
There's like 14 jobs without positionals for people that don't like them, and I not only hope they add more to all melee, I also hope they bring back rewarding conditionals like SHB Raiden Thrust.

14 jobs without positionals but how many of those are melee dps?

( disclaimer, I have no horse in this race, but I just find it funny that some people argue that they wanted a rphys with no procs after being introduced one, while there is an outrage when the same is asked for melee dps and positionals )

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Originally Posted by Valence

14 jobs without positionals but how many of those are melee dps?

( disclaimer, I have no horse in this race, but I just find it funny that some people argue that they wanted a rphys with no procs after being introduced one, while there is an outrage when the same is asked for melee dps and positionals )

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Ooooh I would love a ranged proc DPS class, I would like to try melee but due to all the noise that goes on and positionals i tent to just lvl it and ignore it.

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

Same way some people enjoy casts even though mechanics are always making them move around, and just like with casts you can map all the boss spins and position resets along with true north mapping in a fight to land most positionals.
There's like 14 jobs without positionals for people that don't like them, and I not only hope they add more to all melee, I also hope they bring back rewarding conditionals like SHB Raiden Thrust.

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I understand, I sadly dont have the hand dexterity for all the movements as sudden movements can bruise and break bones inrl, hence why I don't even try to do positionals, its just a shame I wont get to play a melee class at its full potential, alas.

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Originally Posted by Valence

14 jobs without positionals but how many of those are melee dps?

( disclaimer, I have no horse in this race, but I just find it funny that some people argue that they wanted a rphys with no procs after being introduced one, while there is an outrage when the same is asked for melee dps and positionals )

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Hopefully zero

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Originally Posted by Kathryn

I understand, I sadly dont have the hand dexterity for all the movements as sudden movements can bruise and break bones inrl, hence why I don't even try to do positionals, its just a shame I wont get to play a melee class at its full potential, alas.

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You can just quite simply ignore positionals if you are not doing end-game content with dps checks.

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

Hopefully zero

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That reply is kinda rich after saying there is 14 jobs to pick from tbh

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Originally Posted by Eastwall

Cap aoe skills in pvp to 5 targets

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I think this will bring tears though, its like saying add immunity timers and cap Salted Earth to five targets, then wait for the forums to explode with counter opinions.

Most people agree with the 5 target cap or falloff in pvp, even though some arguments have been advanced to mostly discuss of its actual impact in results.

People asking for immunity timers however don't understand how the pvp system works. You have purify, guard and other skills for it, use them, they're your immunity timers.

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Originally Posted by avaule

MNK: show Disciplined Fist and Leaden Fist buffs on the gauge. I'm always getting lost in the rotation, and trying to find them amongst all the other buffs is a pain.

DRG: bring Sky High and Sky Shatter over to PvE. Moar jumps, moar higher!

NIN: needs more stealth-oriented skills considering it's a dang ninja.

SCH: glamor Eos as pixie and Seraph as Feo Ul.

AST: make it so that cards aren't all the same flavor of damage up. Also, remove or repurpose Undraw. Maybe give an extra Redraw attempt on the next Draw.

BRD: remove damage and target requirement from songs, buff the effects, but give them decently long cast times where they actually play/sing a song. That way they feel more like a bard and less like a ranger wearing bard clothes.

DNC: Drain Samba: basically, a party-wide version of Bloodbath.

SMN: as others have already said: Leviathan, Ramuh, and Shiva.

RDM: show Black Shift / White Shift circle at your feet like in PvP. I feel like I spend more time looking at the gauge on RDM than any other job, and my (already poor) situational awareness suffers as a result.

Disclaimer: started in EW, no high-end experience, just normal-mode stuff.

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I know the topic is unrealistic expectation, and this suggestion is that but also an I Wish.

AST: Make cards not target specific and instead ground target. Make the cards themselves be the spell or effect. Such as playing Bole does a heal inside target radius. Ewer does a regen, Spire a shield, Spear a melee buff, Arrow a ranged buff, and Balance as a ground target Cure.

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

You can just quite simply ignore positionals if you are not doing end-game content with dps checks.

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If a basic, core job mechanic isn't "relevant to" or "fun in" Duty Finder-able content, then what's the point in it existing?

I posted this elsewhere, but I think I would be in favor of trading postionals for riskier attacks. -- like attacks that force or restrict movement. Like a melee could get an attack that's like En Avant, but you deal damage to everything in your path. or something to that nature.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

If a basic, core job mechanic isn't "relevant to" or "fun in" Duty Finder-able content, then what's the point in it existing?

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But I find them fun, being active and moving around the boss to land them feels great, it's also an extra layer of challenge you can set up for yourself to try and land as many as possible while also not being catastrophically detrimental if you make mistakes. It's specially rewarding when all the extra effort can be the difference between a wipe or a kill in high-end duties when an hp bar comes down to decimals, I don't want that gone and it's one of the reasons I detest wall bosses.
Duty finder/normals being a horrific snooezefest that can't be failed is a different topic, I mean you don't need to heal, dps as a healer, use fire spells or tank cooldowns if you don't want to, doesn't mean they need to be removed just because normal is stupidly undertunned.

If you really want to play a job that requires melee uptime but doesn't require positionals, tanks are always an option, especially as tank gameplay around positioning and mitigation becomes progressively more vestigial. As it is tanks, healers, and casters have been steadily losing their defining gameplay mechanics on the basis of trying to engage players who have zero interest in actually playing those roles. We don't need to add melee to that mix, and you will get community pushback for this on a much larger scale than you saw with Kaiten.

If you're in the process of progging Sastasha, being a DPS in general is optional. That doesn't mean that you normally queue into the instance as a solo tank and ask your friends if they want to come cheer you on (although you could make a case for this with the current iteration of tank design).

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

Duty finder/normals being a horrific snooezefest that can't be failed is a different topic, I mean you don't need to heal, dps as a healer, use fire spells or tank cooldowns if you don't want to, doesn't mean they need to be removed just because normal is stupidly undertunned.

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But that's exactly my point. Duty Finder shouldn't be a separate topic, and the sooner people start realizing that job design and encounter design are intertwined, and that Duty Finder actually matters, the better off this game will be. A bit of extra DPS that only shows up on FFLogs isn't good design.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

But that's exactly my point. Duty Finder shouldn't be a separate topic, and the sooner people start realizing that job design and encounter design are intertwined, and that Duty Finder actually matters, the better off this game will be. A bit of extra DPS that only shows up on FFLogs isn't good design.

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Duty finder will never matter as long as it's tied to the story, normal bosses barely have a design, it's more like a target dummy and no kind of rework or job design changes will have any effect on basement floor difficulty that only demands players do the bare minimum to clear.
I'm not saying there shouldn't be some changes, I'm sure healers could use with some more dps buttons to not die from boredom but you will absolutely never have to use your entire kit if the encounter simply has negative challenges in it.
I wish they would up the difficulty for normals and dungeons but they won't.
Not sure what fflogs has to do with positionls, the extra dps may just be a reward but the way it affects your gameplay goes beyond something numerical, I can very clearly tell when a melee is doing positionals and when they are not even trying just by the way they move or the extra greed risks they take in some encounters.

1.5s GCD. 1s on melee and physical ranged.

Significant incoming party damage for all levels of content, necessitating healing. Also big tank spikes/critd that keep us on our toes Healers need to manage mana again, with DPS spells costing enough that there is a resource management choice. Basically make healing an active role instead of a memorized dance.

Massive button consolidation and focusing on hitting buttons more often on a priority system than fixed rotations with tons of oGCD cooldowns.

Moving more activity outside of the 2 minute burn phases so we have something to do the other 1 min 30s. The tanks are the worst with this due to their 1-2-3 filler snooze.

Design content for competent players as a baseline, with a mercy mode for knuckle-draggers who need to get through MSQ.

For BRD:

Have a baseline level of proccing plus extra procs from DOT ticks. This will make AoE involve interesting decisions again.

Give me some actual songs to play during my combat cycle. Our current 3 songs could require a cast time (with no target); new buffs could be added; we could sing an insult to debuff enemies; etc. I just feel like an archer with some extra animation flashes, currently.

One gimmick could be buffing nearby allies with our songd only to encourage positioning choices in the raid group.

It's kind of poetic (in the ironic sense) that the thread about "unrealistic expectations" is just everyone's desires.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

If you really want to play a job that requires melee uptime but doesn't require positionals, tanks are always an option, especially as tank gameplay around positioning and mitigation becomes progressively more vestigial. As it is tanks, healers, and casters have been steadily losing their defining gameplay mechanics on the basis of trying to engage players who have zero interest in actually playing those roles. We don't need to add melee to that mix, and you will get community pushback for this on a much larger scale than you saw with Kaiten.

If you're in the process of progging Sastasha, being a DPS in general is optional. That doesn't mean that you normally queue into the instance as a solo tank and ask your friends if they want to come cheer you on (although you could make a case for this with the current iteration of tank design).

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Again why are you acting like the totality of enjoying a melee is positionals

You can like melee design and not like positionals, with 6 melee classes there should be room for one to not have positionals given we have 2 (pointless) sub roles inside 4 healers, 2 phys ranged from the proc role that barely use procs and at least one caster that doesn’t cast

Positionals aren’t an unassailable “if you don’t have positionals you aren’t a melee” they are just one facet of the melee role and one that doesn’t have to be in all 6

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Originally Posted by Equitable_Remedy

It's kind of poetic (in the ironic sense) that the thread about "unrealistic expectations" is just everyone's desires.

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If there is a low to no chance that those desires are met, they're unreasonable. :)

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Again why are you acting like the totality of enjoying a melee is positionals

You can like melee design and not like positionals, with 6 melee classes there should be room for one to not have positionals given we have 2 (pointless) sub roles inside 4 healers, 2 phys ranged from the proc role that barely use procs and at least one caster that doesn’t cast

Positionals aren’t an unassailable “if you don’t have positionals you aren’t a melee” they are just one facet of the melee role and one that doesn’t have to be in all 6

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Yeah there are plenty of tough MMO classes independent of positionals.

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Originally Posted by HappyHubris

For BRD:

Have a baseline level of proccing plus extra procs from DOT ticks. This will make AoE involve interesting decisions again.

Give me some actual songs to play during my combat cycle. Our current 3 songs could require a cast time (with no target); new buffs could be added; we could sing an insult to debuff enemies; etc. I just feel like an archer with some extra animation flashes, currently.

One gimmick could be buffing nearby allies with our songd only to encourage positioning choices in the raid group.

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Vicious mockery would get me to change mains INSTANTLY

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Again why are you acting like the totality of enjoying a melee is positionals

given we have 2 (pointless) sub roles inside 4 healers, 2 phys ranged from the proc role that barely use procs and at least one caster that doesn’t cast

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yeah maybe subroles are not a great idea if that's what we end up with

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Originally Posted by Kathryn

I really don't understand how people can enjoy positionals in the slightest, bosses are always being moved around by tanks or mechanics so you get cucked for a very marginal damage increase each time anyway.

Also would probably cut down on people telling others how to play their class properly if they didnt have to remember to go flank.rear.side/whatever, screw that garb im far too old to care enough about a marginal dps increase while all that noise is going on.

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That stuff keeps me entertained while I'm attacking honestly. It's not as fun when there aren't positionals to keep me moving. Do I need to do them? I mean I guess not, but I like getting higher damage for doing a bit extra.

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Originally Posted by Cynric

That stuff keeps me entertained while I'm attacking honestly. It's not as fun when there aren't positionals to keep me moving. Do I need to do them? I mean I guess not, but I like getting higher damage for doing a bit extra.

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Thats fair, each to their own, I've played this game since 1.0 and I have never not once enjoyed positionals so I've always been a caster, maybe im just getting old :)

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

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I think that it's a serious mistake to cater job design to people who are currently ambivalent to it. You drive away the core audience, and everyone else remains ambivalent. That's a contributing factor to a lot of the progressive simplifications that we're seeing across roles.

Contributing to this are bad actors who have no interest in the role but are out looking for personal gain. When Abyssos was released, all we heard from that tier about was how Casters 'should do more dps' because of the hitbox sizes and wall fights without positionals. This is where most of the push to remove postionals comes from. It's pretty obvious what their follow-up to this will be.

Likewise, a tiered system of 'sub-subroles' into BLM and non-BLM was probably the worst design decision to hit Caster DPS. Jobs in a subrole should have parity with each other at minimum, which in turn places some constraints in the design and types of gameplay challenges. If you remove those challenges, then that balance gets called into question. So if DRG post-rework is suddenly without positionals and comes with widespread simplifications and button loss as 'Dawntrail's SMN', does that mean that we suddenly create an 'unwanted tier' of melee DPS? At least SMN had Raise.

Unless players step in to defend their role and vocalize that these ideas are unwanted and unwelcome, the devs assume that players in the role want these simplifications and we end up with the likes of auto-healing tanks that don't manage positioning, casters that don't cast, and healers that aren't needed to heal while being restricted to one-button Broil rotations. A 'platformer without pitfalls'.

If you want people to be sympathetic to healer issues, then you have to offer a degree of mutual consideration to preserving roles that others care about in return. This is just the tip of the iceburg. Removing positionals will definitely come with significant backlash, at least after the fact.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

putting my quote as question marks changes nothing when you know what I’m saying and just ends up looking like a rude way to imply that what I’m saying is meaningless or confusing when it’s not

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You seem to have this overwhelming assumption that what you want is what every player wants when it concerns classes you play but when it comes to other classes they are free game.

Me having a problem with healer issues has nothing to do with me looking for changes in the other roles. I have said dozens of times if square came out and showed empirically that healer population preferred the current design I would relent and agree with the majority. That’s why I don’t shout down people who come in offering suggestions for healers (as do most others), we point out flaws if there is one but we don’t work off the assumption that any one design is an unassailable truth as you seem to do with the melees. Anyone is free to offer any suggestions about any class. Sure more weight should be given to the mains but that doesn’t mean others should be discouraged from offering what they want out of a class, it’s why I prefer to offer suggestions expanding classes I find flawed like SMN, not reverting them

I’m a healer main but that doesn’t mean I have opinions about the other classes, if you truly don’t think others should be able to have opinions about the other classes why are you always on the healer forums or the tank forums

I’m not even going to mention I don’t want them removed for all melee, just an option like SMN for non casters and MCH for non proc phys ranged or PLD for low APM tanks or AST for high APM healers