Let's talk about the upcoming DRG rework...

And your point being?

That the focus of the wishes simply forgot the base class, Lancer. At last from what i image by the wish, to make more jumps is, a gummi bear fighter on extesy, who stand on a trampoline.
Someone, who dont stand still and is allways jumping around. Even, when that would normaly be not very good for a fight again other humans. Standing on the ground looks simply be, the better baseline of the class. With a few jumps (maybe, a additional jump skill could be a drill attack, similary to Kiba from Naruto or some other fighting games, where you jump forward in a rotation).

Like i allready stated, do i not expect a rework, as big as the summoner. Where the whole core mechanic was reworked (and even there, had they mostly removed the aoe skills and changed the summoned skills). But more some like the monk (where only the gauge was changed and some skills obtained new functions) or paladin (where the connections between some skills was changed).
Something that i could image would be, to make the 3 jump skills into 1 combo.
(Hi-)Jump-> Spineshatter dive ->dragonfire dive-> mirage dive (jump could transorm into this again than) later as a finisher (ok, THAT would look like a gummi bear, with so many jumps in a row^^).

One problem with the jumps is, that it so disconnected to the rest. Making it a combo of there own, would give them at last some connection And, even the lvl would fit, to finish the combo with lvl 50.
Mirage dive after dragonfire could make sense from the animation. By Dragonfire ended the jump with some fire around you. The animation could fit, that you than gathering this fire, to shot the mirage dive at the enemy.
Downside would be, that the drg could lose his gap closer with this idea. Or, the combo would make the jumps simply stronger. But keep it free to use at any time, with lesser dmg. Like, with the normal combo. That could let you have 1 spineshatter free to use as gap closer.

Aside of that, did i noticed something others, that could truly be a target for the rework.
Life of the dragon

That status is something missing, after you shot your stardiver and Nastrond. Nearly 20 seconds, without doing anything with that.
The new skill whe saw, would fit very good into that time, as a 15-20 second cd skill. Do, that you can cast it 2 times in that phase. Nastrond 3 times and stardive 1 times (or, Stardive need a cd reducing to around 20 sec, so, that you can use it 2 times in the phase).

I cannot stress enough how much I would hate if jumps became a combo, I would literally just stop playing Dragoon then and there.

At the end of the day, the job is called Dragoon, the time spent as lancer is so small these days it isn't really worth trying to keep it that relevant within Dragoon's kit.

I don't know what they're doing to DRG's kit, all I know is Nidhogg chomp look cool. Doesn't really change my general concern, but we'll find out on the 16th.

Y'all panicking for nothing. Just wait when they show it, there no way it can be that bad. There a chance the job will become the new smn.

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Originally Posted by Zairava

I cannot stress enough how much I would hate if jumps became a combo, I would literally just stop playing Dragoon then and there.

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If they give DRG a Jump combo, that proves that they didn't learn anything from the 6.0 NIN Raiju fiasco.

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Originally Posted by Zarkovitch

There a chance the job will become the new smn.

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That's the worst possible outcome

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Originally Posted by Zarkovitch

There a chance the job will become the new smn.

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You mean completely removing the old playstyle from the game, pissing off its fans, but being so braindead easy to play everyone plays it and then the devs can pat themselves on the back for ruining a job?

I'd be surprised if they made jump a combo. Prior to the leaks I'd have banked on them replacing the chaos thrust combo with the dragon magic moves though. Chaos thrust combo is thematically weird, moving the dragon suite from ogcd's to gcd's and then refocusing the ogcd stuff on jumps with a new gauge mechanic was my bet on how the revamp would pan out.

Lancer/dragoon was my starting when I first started playing and while I dont play it often I do like how the job flows currently. So Im kinda mixed on how to feel, like Im scared they'll do what they did to MCH, but Yoshi and the Devs have stated that they think they pushed the "ease of the game" to far, so hopefully they dont nerf it to much.

New datamined abilities just got posted around in full clarity and I think the DRG one looks kind of mediocre, it's just the DRG sitting there calmly waving the spear around and making a big red spell come out like a caster, I really hope the others are more jumpy or have more spear poking

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Originally Posted by WiccaP

Lancer/dragoon was my starting when I first started playing and while I dont play it often I do like how the job flows currently. So Im kinda mixed on how to feel, like Im scared they'll do what they did to MCH, but Yoshi and the Devs have stated that they think they pushed the "ease of the game" to far, so hopefully they dont nerf it to much.

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Nothing indicates they were referring to job gameplay in any way, shape or form. They specifically mentioned encounters when talking about it, and making comparisons to platformers.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Nothing indicates they were referring to job gameplay in any way, shape or form. They specifically mentioned encounters when talking about it, and making comparisons to platformers.

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The majority of forum posts about potential changes and reworks are based on conjectures we make based on statements made by Yoshi P and the Dev team. So almost every forum about it, is us guessing and interpreting what was said. He referenced side scrollers as an example about lack of stress and how reducing stress can lead to a reduction in fun as well.

Being an MMO and specifically mentioning encounters would logically suggest that part of that stress would have come from encounter mechanics and part would come from job gameplay. Job gameplay and a jobs kit directly correlate to how difficult a game would feel. Given they are starting reworks on jobs while saying they have made the game too stress free would suggest, without directly saying it, that job gameplay could be involved in some form or function of making the game feel more intense.

A majority of the times in the past when a job has had a rework, one of the main stated reasons why has been how complicated a job is and to make it easier for the majority of players. And given the comments made by the community on over simplification of jobs over the past couple expansions, it would not be a big leap that job reworks could play into making the game feel more stressful. So yes there is things that could indicate they were also referring to job gameplay.

"Yoshida (reflecting on the fan festival): So from now on, we’ll keep working to surprise players and go beyond what they imagine. But that reminds me of something I regret… as we’ve continued to operate FF14, we’ve made the game more comfortable, a game you can play without stress. But looking back on the last 10 years, I’m thinking we’ve overdone that a bit.

Shimoda: What do you mean?

Yoshida: A video game should ofcourse have an element of stress, but how to handle that properly, is extremely difficult…

Shimoda: I can agree with that.

Yoshida: For example, in a side scrolling game, if there aren’t any holes you can drop down into if you miss a jump, ofcourse the game would lose its stress, but it would also lose its fun.

Yoshida: Speaking of FF14, I would like to restore that part a little bit. If we do that, we can give everyone a better challenge, in a good way, than ever before.

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Originally Posted by WiccaP

The majority of forum posts about potential changes and reworks are based on conjectures we make based on statements made by Yoshi P and the Dev team. So almost every forum about it, is us guessing and interpreting what was said. He referenced side scrollers as an example about lack of stress and how reducing stress can lead to a reduction in fun as well.

Being an MMO and specifically mentioning encounters would logically suggest that part of that stress would have come from encounter mechanics and part would come from job gameplay. Job gameplay and a jobs kit directly correlate to how difficult a game would feel. Given they are starting reworks on jobs while saying they have made the game too stress free would suggest, without directly saying it, that job gameplay could be involved in some form or function of making the game feel more intense.

A majority of the times in the past when a job has had a rework, one of the main stated reasons why has been how complicated a job is and to make it easier for the majority of players. And given the comments made by the community on over simplification of jobs over the past couple expansions, it would not be a big leap that job reworks could play into making the game feel more stressful. So yes there is things that could indicate they were also referring to job gameplay.

"Yoshida (reflecting on the fan festival): So from now on, we’ll keep working to surprise players and go beyond what they imagine. But that reminds me of something I regret… as we’ve continued to operate FF14, we’ve made the game more comfortable, a game you can play without stress. But looking back on the last 10 years, I’m thinking we’ve overdone that a bit.

Shimoda: What do you mean?

Yoshida: A video game should ofcourse have an element of stress, but how to handle that properly, is extremely difficult…

Shimoda: I can agree with that.

Yoshida: For example, in a side scrolling game, if there aren’t any holes you can drop down into if you miss a jump, ofcourse the game would lose its stress, but it would also lose its fun.

Yoshida: Speaking of FF14, I would like to restore that part a little bit. If we do that, we can give everyone a better challenge, in a good way, than ever before.

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Sure, but he explicitly said at PAX that they didn't want to "upset" the direction of jobs, and were mostly going to add to them.

I want to believe that what he said in that interview applies to jobs as much as the next guy, but I'll believe it when I see it

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Originally Posted by Zairava

Sure, but he explicitly said at PAX that they didn't want to "upset" the direction of jobs, and were mostly going to add to them.

I want to believe that what he said in that interview applies to jobs as much as the next guy, but I'll believe it when I see it

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Same, I had originally said that I was both nervous and hopeful about the rework and took what was said about the ease of the game as a plausible point when thinking about reworks. I was responding to the person who decided that that was flat wrong and I just wanted to explain how the ease of the game can also apply to job gameplay and how we are all making assumptions based on how we interpret information.

The direction of the jobs is also a very broad idea and adding things to them are inherently going to change them.

They explicitly said they won't change jobs too much for DT and would just keep on building over what already exists. Yoshi-P's comments were more in the line of making encounters more surprising, avoiding repeating the same mechanics, and taking a second look at boss hitbox sizes.

However, it is likely that they'll be bolder when it comes to jobs for 8.0. How bold though... we'll see.

imo there is a reason the devs post-poned the DRG/AST reworks after SAM in 6.1 .. so best would be cautious and worried

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Originally Posted by Zairava

Sure, but he explicitly said at PAX that they didn't want to "upset" the direction of jobs, and were mostly going to add to them.

I want to believe that what he said in that interview applies to jobs as much as the next guy, but I'll believe it when I see it

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I would argue that it is literally impossible to avoid upsetting people on social media, so if that's the standard, it will not be met.

This thread is a great example. To summarize: half the posts are about the job being terrible and the other half are pre-raging about any possible change to the job. No way to satisfy this.

Who is saying the job is terrible? And it's perfectly valid to criticize the motivations to rework DRG when SE has stated what they are, as well as their current design philosophies that are pretty well evident from their most recent reworks on other jobs.

I loathe this endless "wait and see, you can't criticize until you try it" mentality. The goalpost keeps being moved forward endlessly and we've seen how well posthumous feedback works with jobs like SAM.

EDIT: Like if it turns out the DRG rework is actually great that's just a point in favor of "pre-raging", since it started as soon as it was announced, rightly so after what we saw happen with other reworks. Pre-raging and demanding SE actually thinks long and hard if a rework is well thought out before releasing it seems to work.

I'll make a very, very bold prediction: people on social media (this forum included) won't like the changes.

I can make a very bold prediction too: people on social media will defend any changes they make.

What is the point you are making?

If I were gonna bet, I would bet on the drg rework being in line more with monk than summoner.

What a world we live in where proper and reasonable feedback is seen as "pre-raging".

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

I can make a very bold prediction too: people on social media will defend any changes they make.

What is the point you are making?

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He doesn't have one, hes just a professional contrarian that complains about people complaining just to feel like king whiner in a thread about a job he doesn't play.

What if the Nidhogg move gets procced off Chaotic Spring, and you can use it on any target suffering from the dot.

I'm not a particularly hardcore dragoon player but honestly I'm worried. Dragoon was a job actually designed to be a burst class for a long time the only thing that felt kinda awkward with it to me was the raid buffing aspect of it (it always felt contrived from a class fantasy standpoint.)
Like yeah the job does feel complete, it has since SHB so it does need to fundamentally change if they want to keep it fresh, completely understandable.
I'm just not confident in the job design team to do anything unique with it and in worried it'll just become reaper 2.0

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Originally Posted by WiccaP

Same, I had originally said that I was both nervous and hopeful about the rework and took what was said about the ease of the game as a plausible point when thinking about reworks. I was responding to the person who decided that that was flat wrong and I just wanted to explain how the ease of the game can also apply to job gameplay and how we are all making assumptions based on how we interpret information.

The direction of the jobs is also a very broad idea and adding things to them are inherently going to change them.

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Who said what was flat wrong again?

I don't disagree or agree with the statement of them improving jobs or not, I'm just not hopeful about it because his words have always been immediately followed or encased into encounter discussion rather than battle system discussion. I dare him to prove me wrong though, as i'd rather that my lack of copium is unjustified and have actual improved job gameplay, and I dare hope a refurnished battle system as well than the opposite.

The dev team loves oversimplifications with the pathetic and lame excuse of "hard to balance". Which is their way of saying "we're lazy to make this work".

I expect them to rework the job into something similar to the DRG in FFXI, adding a wyvern pet with some sort of utility.

But do not forget they already destroyed every single job they have reworked: AST, DRK, SMN and MCH attest to that.

I will never forgive them for erasing the old AST card system, time dilation, or nocturnal/diurnal system, or removing the 2nd combo for the DRK that increased enmity. Making us DRK players spam one single combo for 90 levels.

Every time they have "reworked" a job is because they needed a lame excuse to make it simpler and remove things, not add.

So no, I do not expect anything positive from the rework of both DRG and AST.

I would be so so upset if they reworked DRG into a pet job LOL pls Yoshi P don't do me dirty like that!

I think most people can agree that DRG is about le jump. Give us more Jumps. Jump here, jump there jump everywhere, if you hit jump and it gives you that feeling where you're like I might regret the timing but when you land it and don't tank the floor you feel like a god. Give us more of that, Jump is love, jump is life.

Dancers have en avant, and most people who raid with dancers can agree those bastards do some of the most unnecessarily sketchy things with en avant. But I'm sure those dancers feel like gods when they get away with it, much to the terror(and detriment) of their raid team.

Jump is the OG version of this. Give us more. Dragoons literally give no shits, we throw ourselves at fang and claw and we make no apologies. Rework the job to reflect this and I will be a happy boy :D

Imagine the lvl100 capstone skills are the pvp limit breaks and dragoon gets SkyShatter.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Imagine the lvl100 capstone skills are the pvp limit breaks and dragoon gets SkyShatter.

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I would love love love this. Please give us sky shatter.

Imagine during those forced downtime sequences and you just yeet into the sky and crash back down as the raid boss returns. Fantastic.

Wouldn't Sky Shatter just be used to cheese mechanics then?

Your character just isn't on the field during the jump, so you could just use it to cheese mechanics for the few seconds that you're in the sky for.

Ah they could just nerf it where you don't completely avoid damage, maybe just reduced damage. I think most if not all other melee jobs have some form of 10% mit. They could just make you take 10% reduced damage in the sky. You still have that ring that would mark you as if you were on the ground.

You could also be restricted by how fast you can move while in the sky. Sky shatter as it is in PvP is pretty slow. Also given the number of seconds youd be in the sky for you'd only really be using it before you expect the boss to come back down, not too soon not too late. so i couldnt imagine it being used very often for mechanics anyway. Peeps would almost always prioritise the damage aspect of the skill imo

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Wouldn't Sky Shatter just be used to cheese mechanics then?

Your character just isn't on the field during the jump, so you could just use it to cheese mechanics for the few seconds that you're in the sky for.

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It technically is on the field, the same way you can block a crystal progression in pvp while being up in the air. Perhaps it could only negate aggro based targeting from enemies (making it mostly a thing in trash pulls, adds and boss aggro/autos for instance), but not from encounter mechanics necessarily.

They should keep pvp and pve completely separate.
I certainly don't want my lvl 100 ability wasted on a downtime ability like Soulsow that never get used again during active combat, and I would not enjoy doing intermission mechanics as a giant circle of light on the ground.

Mmmm I dunno for mechanics where you're forced away like over sized iron chariot type stuff. It would be super cool to fly into the sky as you break away then crash back down. As for extended intermission type stuff you wouldnt really be doing the mechanic as a white circle on the ground. It'd be the tail end only right? Using I dunno Athena as an example? During that dashy numbers limit break thing, you wouldn't jump into the sky until the mechanic was resolved and your party is stacked on the safe platform waiting for her to return.

At least that's how I would imagine peeps would use it. Sky shatter isnt indefinate air time xD

As for the comparison to soul sow in place of a capstone ability... yeahhhh when you put it that way mayyybeeeeeeee not the capstone ability then? XD or just make it super cracked for damage huehuehue. It's about time dragoons have a skill that actually does big numbers. Looking at you whm and dnc ; ;

Oh oh also what if... the skill had a 2 part thingo depending on when you activate it? Bit like AST Earthly Star? That could make it quite interesting. Pop and hop for smol damage and maybe just hit one target or hang in the air for longer for big damage and AoE? I dunnnnoooo could be coooool xD

I just wanna say i'm praying for y'all

- a former smn main

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

New datamined abilities just got posted around in full clarity and I think the DRG one looks kind of mediocre, it's just the DRG sitting there calmly waving the spear around and making a big red spell come out like a caster, I really hope the others are more jumpy or have more spear poking

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Also, I haven't seen any stuff that go against ToS BUT that skill in the benchmark had me disappointed tbh. The nidhogg looking thing coming out of the ground is cool but the fact that our character just sticks their spear in the sky and looks like theyre casting magic is sooooo un-dragoon i mean we literally throw our entire bodies, spear in hand at enemies why are we now deciding to cast spells lol. I hope the rework doesnt make us caster looking dudes... that would make me sader than having a pet job. Its bad enough 90% of our "spears" look like wizards staves. We have stabby stabber spears. Let us stab our stabbers. Shank our shankers. Jab our jabbers. Nocastingpl0x

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Originally Posted by Reldhir

We have stabby stabber spears. Let us stab our stabbers. Shank our shankers. Jab our jabbers.

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This is giving me Jacke vibes, to be honest. (The ROG quest giver.)

https://files.catbox.moe/bmdc94.mp4
Baton Twirling Mastery V, thanks yoshi

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

They should keep pvp and pve completely separate.
I certainly don't want my lvl 100 ability wasted on a downtime ability like Soulsow that never get used again during active combat, and I would not enjoy doing intermission mechanics as a giant circle of light on the ground.

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Who the hell asked for an ability never used during active combat and what makes you think a pve skyshatter would last more than 5s like it does in pvp? If anything if used in downtime, it would be super niche like current flamethrower fishing a tick before a boss comes back for true tryhards...

I don't know about you but if it's as potent as it should be, I would try to fit this in my burst or something.