I know y'all don't wanna hear this...

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Originally Posted by ChonkGoblinSuprem

LoL apt meme because it seems like you are a painfully unfunny clown.

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https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...2/IMG_5947.jpg

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

There are three factors to a successful wall to wall pull. You need a tank who can control the mobs and survive the damage. You need a healer who can keep up with the damage so the tank can survive. You need group dps that's enough to burn the mobs down quickly so the tanks and healers don't run out of resources. Sometimes you have a tank who can't survive. Sometimes there's a healer who can't keep up. Sometimes there are dps that just aren't burning fast enough. It's okay to go into a run with the idea that it may go exactly as you want it to. But the wise player knows runs won't always go the way they want. The best skill anyone can develop if you plan to run with PUGs is the ability to reorient and adjust tactics in ways that help the party succeed. A lot of the time this involves swallowing one's pride, though, so many players don't want to do so. They would rather try to drag others kicking and screaming into what they want. And the only person we can control is ourself.

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One of the better posts in this thread, thank you!

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Originally Posted by Omedon

One of the better posts in this thread, thank you!

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Except it's not, because it's wrong. With the way the game is currently designed and balanced, healers are superfluous. To the point where optimized groups that speed run dungeons completely ditch bringing a healer entirely.

Like this group: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBofKTvcCms
and this group: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGJ7wiPusJk
and this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7p8Llx9nQV8
this one too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3xQsB7aQJA

And many more. All of those videos were recorded on content, and you will notice that one of them is even from ShB. This is not a new phenomena. W2W in dungeons is not a high end stratagem, hard, or where the skill ceiling for dungeon content resides. It is a basic stratagem that should be employed 100% of the time past level 50(really around 45 when every job finally gets aoe) to increase speed and efficacy. If you are incapable of playing to that standard, you are being rude and inconsiderate of other player's time; by using the DF for level 50+ dungeons. The game is balanced for large pulls, the vast majority of single pulls will not even require a single heal on the tank(with competent DPS).

I always find it humorous when people frame themselves as morally superior for 'caring' and 'adjusting', when they have very likely frustrated infinitely more people by 'adjusting' than if they'd just W2W'd normally.

W2W should be the assumed default after a certain point, perhaps barring a few very specific niche pulls. You should only ever stop W2W pulling if your healer specifically asks you to do so. As people have said, communication is key, but it's 100% on the person requesting a departure from standard play to communicate that.

A quick disclaimer before I answer: I'm patient in dungeons. I'm not going to pull a slow run or anything like that.

That said, the initial post is wrong for several reasons:

1° This kind of discussion is a bit easy to forget about players who are regulars. By regulars, I don't mean HL fanatics, just those who know the game and how to manage it. I'm sorry, but 90% of the time the healer isn't in trouble during a w2w. If they are, there's actually a serious gameplay problem on their part or that of the tank. This brings us to a huge problem: most healers WANT w2w. Because if they don't, it's a real pain in the arse. I did 10 dungeons today (thanks to Sunday): during those ten dungeons, the healer was always running ahead. "Pull more please, really, I'm bored".

2° Using invulnerability or its equivalents should not be seen as an exception, but as the rule. These are GCDs that are rarely, if ever, needed in boss battles, and FFXIV is a game that's meant to be proactive. If a GCD is left out, it's a waste.

3°Healers are designed for dps, and you really don't understand the game to claim otherwise. I'm sorry if I'm saying this in an unpleasant way, but in practice FF works by heal "windows", outside of which you have nothing else to do but dps. Those who don't do dps fall into two categories : healers who have to deal with really noob tanks (that's ok, but that's not the general rule either), or those who do nothing during the fight (aka : "I cast 1 cure, then stand here. Doing... nothing").

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Originally Posted by FenyxRising

I think he thinks W2W pulls are high end now ?

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Don't lie.

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Originally Posted by Miracle_Diva

What does "high end" have to do with anything?
But you tried I guess.

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Your "I know you are but what am I". If you're a Savage raider, you either use PF or have a static. Meaning you have a ready group, or know how to quickly get one, to power-run your Experts. You aren't the "que for a roulette a day" target audience of the content.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

We might have finally reached the point where the "minimum requirement" is having a pulse and "high-end play" is being able to press 5 different buttons.

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And this is why hyperbole is bad, kids (see sig)

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

There are three factors to a successful wall to wall pull. You need a tank who can control the mobs and survive the damage. You need a healer who can keep up with the damage so the tank can survive. You need group dps that's enough to burn the mobs down quickly so the tanks and healers don't run out of resources. Sometimes you have a tank who can't survive. Sometimes there's a healer who can't keep up. Sometimes there are dps that just aren't burning fast enough. It's okay to go into a run with the idea that it may go exactly as you want it to. But the wise player knows runs won't always go the way they want. The best skill anyone can develop if you plan to run with PUGs is the ability to reorient and adjust tactics in ways that help the party succeed. A lot of the time this involves swallowing one's pride, though, so many players don't want to do so. They would rather try to drag others kicking and screaming into what they want. And the only person we can control is ourself.

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This post. /thread

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

The real problem is that, in the majority of dungeons, trash mobs are so weak that wall pulls are easily doable. Why pull slower when there's no reason not to just get it all over with?

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Eh this person speaking THE TRUTH.

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Originally Posted by Zakuyia

Eh this person speaking THE TRUTH.

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Because you should always prepare for and expect the worst and take anything else as a happy accident. Honestly applies to RL and not just games.

When I first picked up a tank class back in ARR I was nervous. Then I found out that all you really have to do is use your AoEs in dungeons to hold aggro and the tankxiety went away real quick. Just rotate defencive CDs and aoe combo. The occational ranged attack to piss off the straggler that a dps aggro'd may be required here and there as well.

And for the side of dps/healers: if you ever yoink aggro do your tank a favor and just run it over to them in the mosh pit so their AoEs will get it off you. Don't gotta stand in the mosh pit, just quick run through it so the mob does so to chase you.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

Because you should always prepare for and expect the worst and take anything else as a happy accident. Honestly applies to RL and not just games.

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This is the truth right here. No better way to approach the Duty Finder. Or Party Finder for that matter.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

Because you should always prepare for and expect the worst and take anything else as a happy accident. Honestly applies to RL and not just games.

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Basically yeah, and also be kind. That's the gist of what I'm getting at here!

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Originally Posted by Merrigan

A quick disclaimer before I answer: I'm patient in dungeons. I'm not going to pull a slow run or anything like that.

That said, the initial post is wrong for several reasons:

1° This kind of discussion is a bit easy to forget about players who are regulars. By regulars, I don't mean HL fanatics, just those who know the game and how to manage it. I'm sorry, but 90% of the time the healer isn't in trouble during a w2w. If they are, there's actually a serious gameplay problem on their part or that of the tank. This brings us to a huge problem: most healers WANT w2w. Because if they don't, it's a real pain in the arse. I did 10 dungeons today (thanks to Sunday): during those ten dungeons, the healer was always running ahead. "Pull more please, really, I'm bored".

2° Using invulnerability or its equivalents should not be seen as an exception, but as the rule. These are GCDs that are rarely, if ever, needed in boss battles, and FFXIV is a game that's meant to be proactive. If a GCD is left out, it's a waste.

3°Healers are designed for dps, and you really don't understand the game to claim otherwise. I'm sorry if I'm saying this in an unpleasant way, but in practice FF works by heal "windows", outside of which you have nothing else to do but dps. Those who don't do dps fall into two categories : healers who have to deal with really noob tanks (that's ok, but that's not the general rule either), or those who do nothing during the fight (aka : "I cast 1 cure, then stand here. Doing... nothing").

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Idk if I'd want GNB using their invulnerability often lol

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Originally Posted by Mcg55ss

Idk if I'd want GNB using their invulnerability often lol

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I've had a few healers in the past say that I've given them a heart attack by using my LB. For what it's worth, the feeling's mutual. I don't like being dropped to 1 HP and being vulnerable even for a second.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I've had a few healers in the past say that I've given them a heart attack by using my LB. For what it's worth, the feeling's mutual. I don't like being dropped to 1 HP and being vulnerable even for a second.

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The thing I don't like about it is sometimes it seems like the invulnerability takes a second to kick in. I have ran dungeons with my FC accidentally hit it and died because it feels like I got hit while my health went down to one and in between the invulnerability kick in

Superbolide has a weird interaction with server ticks. Like it registers the HP-to-1 effect as soon as you hit the button, but the invuln doesn't trigger until the server says so. Anything that hits you in that second or two in between, while you only have the one HP, gets through. With decent ping, it's not usually a problem, but if your network hiccups at the wrong instant.....

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Superbolide has a weird interaction with server ticks. Like it registers the HP-to-1 effect as soon as you hit the button, but the invuln doesn't trigger until the server says so. Anything that hits you in that second or two in between, while you only have the one HP, gets through. With decent ping, it's not usually a problem, but if your network hiccups at the wrong instant.....

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Well at the least I'd expect healers that regularly partied with DRKs in FFXI to be ready for things like that since they could easily 100% -> 0 themselves instantly using 4 hit weapon skills with souleater boosting gear equipped if they had the double attack passive from gear or subjob.

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Originally Posted by Mcg55ss

Idk if I'd want GNB using their invulnerability often lol

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Use mine with big pulls all the time. It's my favorite ability. I have played a healer for 9 years, though, and I have a macro that warns I'm going to use it. Especially because that's a nasty surprise for something like a Sage if we're out of stacks for shields. At 90 with HoC and Aurora GNB can gain a significant amount back so that lessens the stress on the healer. Can usually get it in twice in a dungeon run.

Merrigan's right on the usage. Not really needed for dungeon bosses unless things are going really pear-shaped so other than big pulls it only gets usage on TBs in Savage for me.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Use mine with big pulls all the time. It's my favorite ability. I have played a healer for 9 years, though, and I have a macro that warns I'm going to use it. Especially because that's a nasty surprise for something like a Sage if we're out of stacks for shields. At 90 with HoC and Aurora GNB can gain a significant amount back so that lessens the stress on the healer. Can usually get it in twice in a dungeon run.

Merrigan's right on the usage. Not really needed for dungeon bosses unless things are going really pear-shaped so other than big pulls it only gets usage on TBs in Savage for me.

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I think the most often use I have for a tank job's "invincible" button is solo tanking stack mechanics because... why not? lol