CBU3. Please respect your players.

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Originally Posted by TheDecay

My dear lala, deflecting this back to me doesn't help your case in any way when you immediately launched into a bad-faith attack the very next line:



Mayhaps people will be inclined to take you more seriously when you stop posting on the forums for the sake of "gotcha"-ing other people, as you've done across practically every subforum/board in the OF at this point. As has been repeated ad infinitum at this point: the TOP healerless clear is a symptom of a major design flaw, it's not the flaw itself. Of course, bad faith arguments tend to laser focus on people using that example to illustrate the scope of the problem because it's the easiest way to "gotcha" instead of engaging in, with good faith, a discussion of the myriad problems with healer design.

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The bad faith argument is that healers are obsolete.

99.9% of the player base will never be able to clear an Ultimate without a healer in the party. That something can be done by the top of the elite does not mean that everyone is capable of doing it let alone is doing it.

Again, if people want to claim that healers are obsolete then they need to prove that it can be done by anyone and the logical place to start is with themselves.

So start playing without healers and see how deep into content you manage to get before you realize that they are still necessary.

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Originally Posted by R041

Every time someone replies to feedback and tries to discredit someone, they usually respond back harder. That's how this goes. So here's some more feedback so we can do this forever and ever.

XVI plays itself. Just like XIV
XVI doesn't have gradual difficulty. It's either on or off. Just like XIV
You have to beat the game to get even remotely difficult content. Just like XIV
The pacing is off, and story keeps going from grand epic to dull filler. Just like XIV
The RPG elements are completely gone. Just like XIV
It's a walking and fetch simulator with hours of cutscenes between. Just like XIV
Gil is worthless. Just like XIV
The world is barren and has no reason to explore. Just like XIV
There's way too much constant exposition about everything. Just like XIV
There are a lot of really cool systems, but all of them are half-baked. Just like XIV
The highs are as high as the lows are low. Just like XIV

I can talk about my pros too, but this is basically bait

7/10 game


I have a lot I love about XVI, but I'm not gonna sit here and lie about how I'm having the greatest time ever, that there's nothing wrong, CBU:III is perfect. Nah.. XVI heavily suffers from CBU:III syndrome.

So on brand, really. lol

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Much of that makes it sound like the actual flaw with CBU3 is their inability to create midcore difficulty content and failure to add meaningful exploration opportunities to the open world.

That I wouldn't argue against. I know there had been hopes that Criterion might fill that void but Sil'dihn Subterrane turned into yet another it's either easy on Variant, very difficult on Criterion or extremely difficult on Criterion Savage but can't figure out how to design it for in between.

As for exploring, I would love those opportunities as well. Finding out why they don't put a little more effort in that area would be nice.

One question: what do you mean by "RPG elements are gone"? I see RPG elements all over the place in FFXIV and many from what I've seen in the FFXVI streams. RPG isn't a super narrowly defined set of design choices. It starts from a base - playing a role within the game's story/lore then expands from there. What's appropriate in one game may not be needed or appropriate in another.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

The bad faith argument is that healers are obsolete.

99.9% of the player base will never be able to clear an Ultimate without a healer in the party. That something can be done by the top of the elite does not mean that everyone is capable of doing it let alone is doing it.

Again, if people want to claim that healers are obsolete then they need to prove that it can be done by anyone and the logical place to start is with themselves.

So start playing without healers and see how deep into content you manage to get before you realize that they are still necessary.

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It's not a 'bad faith argument'. A great many players who prioritise the healer role have spoken out over the years in regards to various issues related to the role. Not only in regards to how they perform in content but also the frequent lack of variety when it comes to glamour that isn't just another white robe/dress.

A lot of people around these parts seem unable to comprehend that. I loathe healing, so I don't do it myself - but I'm not the 'got mine, screw you' type of guy so I don't spend my every waking moment trying to deflect criticism from those who are passionate about the role.

Much in the same way as how I can be lucky enough to own a large house but still criticise the dire state of the housing system on behalf of my friends who do not own a house.

It was incredibly tone deaf for Yoshi-P to dismiss legitimate concerns raised by healers with 'go play ultimate' and no amount of '...what he really meant, was...' will change that. Especially when players are proving that even current content can be completed with minimal or no healers due to the bizarre decision to give non-healer roles ridiculous amounts of self healing/damage mitigation.

To say nothing of the fact that many players only really care about one specific type of role in the first place, given how personal preferences work.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Much of that makes it sound like the actual flaw with CBU3 is their inability to create midcore difficulty content and failure to add meaningful exploration opportunities to the open world.

That I wouldn't argue against. I know there had been hopes that Criterion might fill that void but Sil'dihn Subterrane turned into yet another it's either easy on Variant, very difficult on Criterion or extremely difficult on Criterion Savage but can't figure out how to design it for in between.

As for exploring, I would love those opportunities as well. Finding out why they don't put a little more effort in that area would be nice.

One question: what do you mean by "RPG elements are gone"? I see RPG elements all over the place in FFXIV and many from what I've seen in the FFXVI streams. RPG isn't a super narrowly defined set of design choices. It starts from a base - playing a role within the game's story/lore then expands from there. What's appropriate in one game may not be needed or appropriate in another.

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Jojo, it was bait. I think I only really consider 2 of those things actual problems to me specifically. lol

I won't get too into the 'RPG' stuff, especially with XIV - That discussion is exhausting. We all know that. But Character ability collaboration, ability reaction that isn't just a form of shield. More active class interaction with the world and dungeons. Less about text, more about action. (I still like the dance tho)

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Much of that makes it sound like the actual flaw with CBU3 is their inability to create midcore difficulty content and failure to add meaningful exploration opportunities to the open world.

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I think yeah, that basically boils it down. It's not that 'hard' doesn't exist. I just died a few times on Normal Mode actually. It's also weird they even bothered with equipment with stats. If XVI ONLY had rings, that'd be way better. It just seems like sometimes they spend time on things they know are just throwaway, if that makes sense.

But I'm having a lot of fun after the 50% mark in XVI, the game unfortunately still has a few visible issues I wish were ironed out. Almost wish I'd have waited for maybe a balance update.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It's not a 'bad faith argument'. A great many players who prioritise the healer role have spoken out over the years in regards to various issues related to the role. Not only in regards to how they perform in content but also the frequent lack of variety when it comes to glamour that isn't just another white robe/dress.

A lot of people around these parts seem unable to comprehend that. I loathe healing, so I don't do it myself - but I'm not the 'got mine, screw you' type of guy so I don't spend my every waking moment trying to deflect criticism from those who are passionate about the role.

Much in the same way as how I can be lucky enough to own a large house but still criticise the dire state of the housing system on behalf of my friends who do not own a house.

It was incredibly tone deaf for Yoshi-P to dismiss legitimate concerns raised by healers with 'go play ultimate' and no amount of '...what he really meant, was...' will change that. Especially when players are proving that even current content can be completed with minimal or no healers due to the bizarre decision to give non-healer roles ridiculous amounts of self healing/damage mitigation.

To say nothing of the fact that many players only really care about one specific type of role in the first place, given how personal preferences work.

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Healing isn't in a great spot right now. I think everyone can agree on that. I do however feel that people seem to forget that during the ARR - HW - SB era, we use to get a lot of threads on these forums from people being upset that they had to dps as a healer because they wanted to only heal. We're in the exact same spot now but on the opposite side of the argument. It's a bit of a lose lose situation tbh. The difference is that Yoshi-P is actually in favor of that PoV which is why healing was gutted. To him it made sense. We also had a much bigger shortage of healer because healing was harder back then. Wither we like it or not, there are more healers today than back then. Even if healing isn't at all fun to play. It's a sad reality fact that easier jobs are simply more attractive to a large amount of people even if those jobs are horribly unengaging and boring. Laziness will always triumph even if it sacrifices entertainment. But now that we have reached a point where healers aren't even needed to heal, we have fallen so far down the hill.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It's not a 'bad faith argument'. A great many players who prioritise the healer role have spoken out over the years in regards to various issues related to the role. Not only in regards to how they perform in content but also the frequent lack of variety when it comes to glamour that isn't just another white robe/dress.

A lot of people around these parts seem unable to comprehend that. I loathe healing, so I don't do it myself - but I'm not the 'got mine, screw you' type of guy so I don't spend my every waking moment trying to deflect criticism from those who are passionate about the role.

Much in the same way as how I can be lucky enough to own a large house but still criticise the dire state of the housing system on behalf of my friends who do not own a house.

It was incredibly tone deaf for Yoshi-P to dismiss legitimate concerns raised by healers with 'go play ultimate' and no amount of '...what he really meant, was...' will change that. Especially when players are proving that even current content can be completed with minimal or no healers due to the bizarre decision to give non-healer roles ridiculous amounts of self healing/damage mitigation.

To say nothing of the fact that many players only really care about one specific type of role in the first place, given how personal preferences work.

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Gosh I hate quoting on mobile.

Regarding "Go play ultimates", I've cleared two ultimates as a healer (soon to be working on a third). Very very few parts of them were at all related to healing mechanics (J-waves and throttle in TEA were like the only ones in that fight). YoshiP saying that is so frustratingly disingenuous when barely anything even has anything to with actually being a healer and more to do with getting targeted by specific mechanics. I'm sorry but moving to a specific spot because I got a marker over my head is NOT a healer mechanic. I don't have the hateboner for the guy that some people do, but freaking hell he frustrates me to no end with these crappy takes he spouts off.

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Originally Posted by Nav_Fae

Healing isn't in a great spot right now. I think everyone can agree on that. I do however feel that people seem to forget that during the ARR - HW - SB era, we use to get a lot of threads on these forums from people being upset that they had to dps as a healer because they wanted to only heal. We're in the exact same spot now but on the opposite side of the argument. It's a bit of a lose lose situation tbh. The difference is that Yoshi-P is actually in favor of that PoV which is why healing was gutted. To him it made sense. We also had a much bigger shortage of healer because healing was harder back then. Wither we like it or not, there are more healers today than back then. Even if healing isn't at all fun to play. It's a sad reality fact that easier jobs are simply more attractive to a large amount of people even if those jobs are horribly unengaging and boring. Laziness will always triumph even if it sacrifices entertainment. But now that we have reached a point where healers aren't even needed to heal, we have fallen so far down the hill.

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Imo, most of the problems were because cleric stance punished you hard if you didn't use it, and punished you hard if you used it wrong. Naturally some would still be due to focus style- but that is why I think if they split the healers along the line of offensive and defensive support that could be a good spot.

Scholar would return to its more original flavor, Sage would receive more offensive kardia heal spells and Kardia mechanics, maybe offensive heals (target enemy has X potency prevented from being allocated to players). White mage would gain many party buffs, perhaps the opposite of Sage with more defend and damage while Sage is attack and defend (say stoneskin, damage at expiration or when broken- small skill potency bonus for if broken). Astrologian gaining further card effects, if time mage healer isn't going to happen give them some time based buffs back (can still have time effects for other jobs, if they wanted a time mage). Use X potency for buffs and debuffs for easier time balancing, like enstone adds X potency to every attack and y potency shield - deals up to Z damage (in this way you can have expectations). Have buffing based jobs have stronger buff effects on self when party is dead / solo (like basic instinct, which will ensure the defensive support healers don't feel like wet noodles outside of party play).

Damage naturally attempted to be roughly similar, when all the chips lay out. Can include things like force popping stoneskin (cast it on a player, then the ability changes to detonate- which might have its own skill related rewards like the closer to fully used up will provide better results and will be useful when a boss transition approaches).

Personally given how deep we are in certain design decisions and the culture already developed, I feel, that we are never going to see healers in a place where healing can effectively be their primary / only focus. As soon as they force it, it's either temporary or significantly complained about lol. As an aside people who loved old Scholar were pretty vocal on that. I think just giving healers more tasks while still having potent healing abilities when needed is the best route, imo. If you want to be a battle healer, SCH, SGE, where you will mostly target the enemy, and if you want to be the team's wings and cheerleader, WHM, and AST.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It's not a 'bad faith argument'. A great many players who prioritise the healer role have spoken out over the years in regards to various issues related to the role. Not only in regards to how they perform in content but also the frequent lack of variety when it comes to glamour that isn't just another white robe/dress.

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I'm not trying to argue that healing design is a great place and doesn't need help.

I'm pointing out that there is still a use for healers in the game. For healers to be obsolete, they would have to be completely useless across the entirety of the game for all players regardless of skill level.

They are not obsolete. That is being said in bad faith.

They are in need of better design choices.

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Originally Posted by R041

I think yeah, that basically boils it down. It's not that 'hard' doesn't exist. I just died a few times on Normal Mode actually. It's also weird they even bothered with equipment with stats. If XVI ONLY had rings, that'd be way better. It just seems like sometimes they spend time on things they know are just throwaway, if that makes sense.

But I'm having a lot of fun after the 50% mark in XVI, the game unfortunately still has a few visible issues I wish were ironed out. Almost wish I'd have waited for maybe a balance update.

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I'd say that "throwaway things" are part of every RPG, MMO or not. There has to be the carrot to drive players onward and one of the carrots is the need to feel like we are more/better than how we started.

That there's a balance problem with FFXVI's "throwaway things" is evident. Being a single player game with all character progression effectively linear, there's no point in introducing weaker equipment only after the player has received better from the main story quests. It only makes sense in a MMO, where there will be other characters who can use that weaker gear even if the receiving player doesn't, or if the single player game allows the character to have multiple jobs that are leveled independently.

I am glad to hear it's gotten a lot more fun for you. It demonstrates some of the things that Josh Strife Hayes has said in one of his videos: a game will have a hard time keeping a player's interest if it doesn't get good in the player's eyes until after they've invested 20+ hours. But I think that's also a side effect of a game wanting to attract new players who have no previous experience with combat content. Those players need to be gradually introduced to various game concepts that a veteran gamer would already be familiar with or would at least have no problem figuring out the intent.

Should that mean that a hard mode is available from the start in every game? I don't think that's necessarily true depending on what the game is going to require for hard mode.

But what should be standard is a comprehensive tutorial scenario for those who are completely new to games that involve combat or for those that would prefer having an introduction to game specifics or the opportunity to get used to controls before being placed into the middle of action. Players could then choose to start at the tutorial or at the main game. And there should be a way to exit or re-enter the tutorial as the player decides they need. Making the tutorial part an unskippable part of the main game ends up causing a lot of dissatisfaction in those who really don't need it.

FFXIV would have benefitted from something like that. Imagine if as a veteran player, your character started at the point where you join the Scions instead of having to complete the starting area and then the first 3 dungeons. Those sections of the game really are a tutorial and do little to support the actual story of the game. The Ifrit section is also a little on the weak side for veteran gamers but I'd say it's still needed because that's where the real story starts (with the demonstration of the primal threat).

It will be interesting to see how the promised new starting point for new characters gets handled once it's introduced (hopefully with 7.0).

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Originally Posted by Nav_Fae

Wither we like it or not, there are more healers today than back then.

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This is not true. If we have much more healers than ever before now, why was Yoshi P asked in the 8th 14-hour broadcast Q&A about a healer shortage? Why did he have to ask people to give healers a try if there's so many healers around?

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

I'm not trying to argue that healing design is not in a great place.

I'm pointing out that there is still a use for healers in the game. For healers to be obsolete, they would have to be completely useless across the entirety of the game for all players regardless of skill level.

They are not obsolete. That is being said in bad faith.

They are in need of better design choices.

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To be fair, if a warrior is in the party, and possibly gunbreaker or paladin, healers are absolutely obsolete in dungeons. Just did an expert last night with a warrior tank, the only heals I gave the tank were a single pre-pull shield and my kardia props. That's it. I felt extremely useless *in the highest dungeon roulette*. He wasn't even exceptionally geared either, he just properly pressed his buttons. It actively makes me miss WoW dungeons, the healer was almost always needed there, especially in mythic dungeons where they HAVE to heal and dps both.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

This is not true. If we have much more healers than ever before now, why was Yoshi P asked in the 8th 14-hour broadcast Q&A about a healer shortage? Why did he have to ask people to give healers a try if there's so many healers around?

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This is a strawman argument. A shortage of healers doesn't disprove more people play healer today than we did back then. Shortage in this context means least played job, which is naturally going to happen when DPS is disproportionate in total number of jobs vs Tanks and Healers. Let alone the amount of responsibility those jobs have in a party. White Mage is actually one of the most played jobs in the game according to the fan made census. By comparison, the shortage is in the other three healers that are not White Mage. There are multiple reasons for this. Conjurer being the only level 1 healer, White Mage having the job fantasy, White Mage being braindead in general. What we need is more of those White Mages to play some the other healing jobs.
Lastly, there are more people playing the game today than back then. So it's a fact that more people are playing healer than they were 6 years ago even if healing is still in a shortage.

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Originally Posted by Nav_Fae

Lastly, there are more people playing the game today than back then. So it's a fact that more people are playing healer than they were 6 years ago even if healing is still in a shortage.

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Which is exactly why one can't just confidently state that we have more healers now than back in Heavensward either.

Do we have any concrete data on what percentage of the overall playerbase mains healers now and how many did back then (and I mean actually main, not have the job leveled to 90)? None that I know of at least.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

Wait a minute is hard mode actually locked behind completing the game once?
Lame if true, give me mf critical mode right of the bat.

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Actually many games do that...Resident Evil franchise, DMC, Bayonetta...

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Originally Posted by Elissar

Actually many games do that...Resident Evil franchise, DMC, Bayonetta...

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They're not anywhere as long.
Also they usually have non-braindead normal difficulty.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Which is exactly why one can't just confidently state that we have more healers now than back in Heavensward either.

Do we have any concrete data on what percentage of the overall playerbase mains healers now and how many did back then (and I mean actually main, not have the job leveled to 90)? None that I know of at least.

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It's impossible to get concrete data for anything. But at this point it's arguing semantics. In a hypothetical example, we could say that there were 1mil players back than and that 200,000 of them were healers. This would claim that 20% of those players were healers. But we could say, that 10mil players play now and that 1mil of them play healers. That would be 10% play healer. This would make both statements true. That there is a shortage of healers and that more play healer today. Of course, most people who look at data would pay attention to the percentage over the total and say that the number of healers has decreased because it is less than the previous statistical value. I do think it is a reasonable (even if inaccurate) assumption to believe that this math is likely how the game has played out though, seeing as the game's total population is without question higher.

This is exceptionally difficult to calculate in any meaningful way since players can change their main job of choice at any time, leveling multiple jobs, and play jobs on alts.

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

They're not anywhere as long.
Also they usually have non-braindead normal difficulty.

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I am just saying facts, "braindead" can be relative.

More like Normal Mode being locked behind Easy Mode. Amirite lool .... :(

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Originally Posted by R041

More like Normal Mode being locked behind Easy Mode. Amirite lool .... :(

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Tbh, at least they had the decency to add new rewards in NG+. Some games like The Witcher 2 do it by difficult level (Dark mode is great), as example of awful design i can mention Dark Souls 1, NG+ is pure trash.

Im all for criticism but this isnt the ffxvi forums...

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Originally Posted by Minarisweet

Im all for criticism but this isnt the ffxvi forums...

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It's not. But does it count as a Creative Business Unit 3 forum? I suppose that is the real question.

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Originally Posted by TheDecay

[*]Unchallenging dungeons, normal raids, and alliance raids

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Not sure if normal should be "challenging" by most/all player's definitions.

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Originally Posted by TheDecay

[*]Crafting and gathering stripped of their complexity

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It's just enormous time sinks doing brain-dead actions. For me, it looks like FF14 expansions are intended to be played on the first and last patch, possibly with scrip gear to avoid all the time sinks and whatnot. Marketboard mass crafters are likely happy though ;)

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Originally Posted by TheDecay

[*]Manderville relics

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I grinded few old relics but only because of their looks. Not really see a value in having some elaborate grind for weapons that usually have generic to moderate looks... maybe if Manderville weapons would be something more...

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Originally Posted by TheDecay

Meanwhile to play a CBU3 game like FF14 or FF16 is to be insulted by the developers as they put baby guardrails all over the game.

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There is a very limited audience for hard competitive content and it brings a rather harmful meta-driven approach to the game.

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Originally Posted by Minarisweet

Im all for criticism but this isnt the ffxvi forums...

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No content in XIV, so we talk about XVI. I don't see why that should be a big deal, it's not like devs actually use these forums to listen to feedback anyways.

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Originally Posted by Minarisweet

Im all for criticism but this isnt the ffxvi forums...

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To be fair, this is the general discussion section.

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Originally Posted by Catwho

I've got about half a dozen posters blocked on this forum and it's quite nice to not have to argue with them any more. I just skip over.

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Oh yeah, you and me both. I make liberal use of the block option here.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

I'm not trying to argue that healing design is a great place and doesn't need help.

I'm pointing out that there is still a use for healers in the game. For healers to be obsolete, they would have to be completely useless across the entirety of the game for all players regardless of skill level.

They are not obsolete. That is being said in bad faith.

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People describe old iPhones as "obsolete" despite them still being perfectly capable for basic web browsing, music, texting, and calling. Trying to be pedantic about what a word means when everyone on the forums know that "obsolete" does not mean literal, complete obsoleteness but rather a severe reduction in its usefulness and supplantation by other roles is a bad-faith argument. It's a neat trick to pull off - to make it seem like you have a point, but really it's just a pointless tangent into what "obsolete" means.

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Originally Posted by sharknado

Not sure if normal should be "challenging" by most/all player's definitions.


It's just enormous time sinks doing brain-dead actions. For me, it looks like FF14 expansions are intended to be played on the first and last patch, possibly with scrip gear to avoid all the time sinks and whatnot. Marketboard mass crafters are likely happy though ;)


I grinded few old relics but only because of their looks. Not really see a value in having some elaborate grind for weapons that usually have generic to moderate looks... maybe if Manderville weapons would be something more...




There is a very limited audience for hard competitive content and it brings a rather harmful meta-driven approach to the game.

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GoW sold way more copies than FF16. It proves that the appetite for games that challenge you, even in its normal difficulty, exists.

Should there be accessible options, totally. That's why they made those accessibility rings which I thought was a clever way to add difficulty options into the game that other developers should learn from.

But why is the base game in FF16 so unchallenging that there is little to no thought required? Even Hard mode is barely a challenge outside of one or two hunts. You already have the accessibility rings so why does the base game also need to be easy?

And back in FF14, the only semblance of challenge in the past 6 years in solo instances in FF14 is probably In From the Cold, and only if you did not know how aggro and LoS worked in this game. Many players only play FF14 for the MSQ, yet the gameplay is extremely unchallenging and boring. Over the years, I have known plenty of people who did not get to the endgame because they were too bored out of their minds while doing the MSQ. And yet, the game keeps adding stuff like Very Easy option for solo instances. For every 1 person who stuck with the MSQ, there are 4 who tried it and quit because it was the most boring thing they've played in their lives. Isn't the MSQ supposed to the main attraction of this game? Then why is it so boring and uninteresting on a gameplay level?

Respect your players and add some spice. They can handle it.

Well despite some flaws I am enjoying FF16 and still enjoy FF14 so... yeah... take that... capatalisim?

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Originally Posted by TheDecay

GoW sold way more copies than FF16. It proves that the appetite for games that challenge you, even in its normal difficulty, exists.

Should there be accessible options, totally. That's why they made those accessibility rings which I thought was a clever way to add difficulty options into the game that other developers should learn from.

But why is the base game in FF16 so unchallenging that there is little to no thought required? Even Hard mode is barely a challenge outside of one or two hunts. You already have the accessibility rings so why does the base game also need to be easy?

And back in FF14, the only semblance of challenge in the past 6 years in solo instances in FF14 is probably In From the Cold, and only if you did not know how aggro and LoS worked in this game. Many players only play FF14 for the MSQ, yet the gameplay is extremely unchallenging and boring. Over the years, I have known plenty of people who did not get to the endgame because they were too bored out of their minds while doing the MSQ. And yet, the game keeps adding stuff like Very Easy option for solo instances. For every 1 person who stuck with the MSQ, there are 4 who tried it and quit because it was the most boring thing they've played in their lives. Isn't the MSQ supposed to the main attraction of this game? Then why is it so boring and uninteresting on a gameplay level?

Respect your players and add some spice. They can handle it.

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I don't think the "Very Easy" mode should be gone with, for the sake of people who can't play well, but want to see the story...

But I would love if the hard modes had actual rewards behind them, or that even being part of an achievement "beat every <insert expansion/zone/etc> MSQ duty on hard" with a completion prize, which could potentially be completed through the New Game+.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

I don't think the "Very Easy" mode should be gone with, for the sake of people who can't play well, but want to see the story...

But I would love if the hard modes had actual rewards behind them, or that even being part of an achievement "beat every <insert expansion/zone/etc> MSQ duty on hard" with a completion prize, which could potentially be completed through the New Game+.

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I agree that Very Easy should not be removed. My point is that, since there's a Very Easy mode, the solo instances should be harder/more interesting than what they currently are. Especially the RP instances where you have only 3 relevant buttons to use across 2 whole minutes.

In From the Cold showed that they are capable of making something interesting if they tried. The shame is that they do not do this more often.

I just wish I could see shit half the time. So many particle effects, that's the only time I take damage. 'Cause I can't see wtf is even going on to dodge it. lol

Anyone else feel like they should re-title FF16 as Final Fantasy Rising: Revengence? lol

Take pieces of lore from main franchise based around a different game genre to make faster paced action game with a few over the top boss battles, impressive visuals, and a solid soundtrack.

Also both games have a notable dog...

Just need an over the top battle against a human brawler who's abilities defy logic and limits... which can be easily remedied with a DLC where you fight Godbert Manderville. Phase 1 in his dapper suit only to strip down to his undies for Phase 2 where reality says "i'm out" and all hell breaks loose as he proceeds to suplex a doomtrain on top of you...

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Originally Posted by Hurlstone

Well despite some flaws I am enjoying FF16 and still enjoy FF14 so... yeah... take that... capatalisim?

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You made the choice to buy the game with your Own Money, and you are Enjoying it.
Thats what matters, not what anybody else thinks.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

Anyone else feel like they should re-title FF16 as Final Fantasy Rising: Revengence? lol

Take pieces of lore from main franchise based around a different game genre to make faster paced action game with a few over the top boss battles, impressive visuals, and a solid soundtrack.

Also both games have a notable dog...

Just need an over the top battle against a human brawler who's abilities defy logic and limits... which can be easily remedied with a DLC where you fight Godbert Manderville. Phase 1 in his dapper suit only to strip down to his undies for Phase 2 where reality says "i'm out" and all hell breaks loose as he proceeds to suplex a doomtrain on top of you...

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FF16 was like Devil May Cry mixed with Game of Thrones, and then sprinkled with some Final Fantasy vibes. There wasn't even a twist or anything really. On top of that, it had horrible FPS, bad keybindings, out of nowhere dialogue mixups, poor lip sync, and animations from 2010. The way most characters interacted was quite like Skyrim, the only thing missing was the zoom in and people think that game is the Game of the Year? It's a bootleg God of War at best.

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Originally Posted by drtasteyummy

FF16 was like Devil May Cry mixed with Game of Thrones, and then sprinkled with some Final Fantasy vibes. There wasn't even a twist or anything really. On top of that, it had horrible FPS, bad keybindings, out of nowhere dialogue mixups, poor lip sync, and animations from 2010. The way most characters interacted was quite like Skyrim, the only thing missing was the zoom in and people think that game is the Game of the Year? It's a bootleg God of War at best.

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Unfortunately many bought into the hype, forgetting to be patient and wait for real reviews as players finish the game, and only found out about its lackluster gameplay elements deep into the game.

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Originally Posted by TheDecay

GoW sold way more copies than FF16. It proves that the appetite for games that challenge you, even in its normal difficulty, exists.

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FF16 is selling well and still waiting for PC release. GoW is a different game and sales of that game isn't a single variable of difficulty = more sales.

Like when I moved off healers to leveling tank jobs in FF14 I've noticed how BIG the difference between healer players can be. And that's like in old dungeons even. If you want a game with layers of more and more challenging content and where noobs are told to uninstall or worse then go play WoW. Each approach has it advantages but also disadvantages.

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Originally Posted by TheDecay

Should there be accessible options, totally. That's why they made those accessibility rings which I thought was a clever way to add difficulty options into the game that other developers should learn from.

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So you add normal, heroic, mythic, and scaling M+ dungeons. All the good players farm M+ but now FF14 has parsing, logging, and FFScore mandatory and 90% of players wanting to do M+ would be rejected just like in WoW as their score clearly indicates they are to bad a the game to do the content... have fun with competitive meta, way worse than what new PvP mode brought to the game :D

Imagine Yoshi talking about third-party apps not being allowed and 99% of the player base using the FFScore on the forum and in-game to get into groups... And gil selling sites switching to boosting services :D

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Originally Posted by TheDecay

But why is the base game in FF16 so unchallenging that there is little to no thought required? Even Hard mode is barely a challenge outside of one or two hunts. You already have the accessibility rings so why does the base game also need to be easy?

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"unchallenging"... this is relative, not absolute. Most Skyrim players could not cope with a basic skill system, while Dark Souls games are popular but have a specific playerbase only. You won't make a game that will please everyone.

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Originally Posted by TheDecay

Many players only play FF14 for the MSQ, yet the gameplay is extremely unchallenging and boring. Over the years, I have known plenty of people who did not get to the endgame because they were too bored out of their minds while doing the MSQ. And yet, the game keeps adding stuff like Very Easy option for solo instances. For every 1 person who stuck with the MSQ, there are 4 who tried it and quit because it was the most boring thing they've played in their lives. Isn't the MSQ supposed to the main attraction of this game? Then why is it so boring and uninteresting on a gameplay level?

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This is all relative and based on anecdotes. If it's not a hardcore game it should not be made for 1% of the playerbase. FF14 expansions aren't also made to be rushed to endgame and then parsed month by month in some elaborate raiding progression system. The game has clear GTFO break moments and playerbase is rising rather than dropping. Sproutbringer helped a lot with that but still, the game doesn't have problems. It can have in the future but for now, it's fine while not being anything of a "perfect game".

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Originally Posted by TheDecay

Respect your players and add some spice. They can handle it.

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You have savage, extreme, and unreal, get all ARR relics and whatnot. Or take a break and pick other games. This isn't Kottick WoW where you have to be subscribed 24/7.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

I'd say that "throwaway things" are part of every RPG, MMO or not. There has to be the carrot to drive players onward and one of the carrots is the need to feel like we are more/better than how we started.

That there's a balance problem with FFXVI's "throwaway things" is evident. Being a single player game with all character progression effectively linear, there's no point in introducing weaker equipment only after the player has received better from the main story quests. It only makes sense in a MMO, where there will be other characters who can use that weaker gear even if the receiving player doesn't, or if the single player game allows the character to have multiple jobs that are leveled independently.

I am glad to hear it's gotten a lot more fun for you. It demonstrates some of the things that Josh Strife Hayes has said in one of his videos: a game will have a hard time keeping a player's interest if it doesn't get good in the player's eyes until after they've invested 20+ hours. But I think that's also a side effect of a game wanting to attract new players who have no previous experience with combat content. Those players need to be gradually introduced to various game concepts that a veteran gamer would already be familiar with or would at least have no problem figuring out the intent.

Should that mean that a hard mode is available from the start in every game? I don't think that's necessarily true depending on what the game is going to require for hard mode.

But what should be standard is a comprehensive tutorial scenario for those who are completely new to games that involve combat or for those that would prefer having an introduction to game specifics or the opportunity to get used to controls before being placed into the middle of action. Players could then choose to start at the tutorial or at the main game. And there should be a way to exit or re-enter the tutorial as the player decides they need. Making the tutorial part an unskippable part of the main game ends up causing a lot of dissatisfaction in those who really don't need it.

FFXIV would have benefitted from something like that. Imagine if as a veteran player, your character started at the point where you join the Scions instead of having to complete the starting area and then the first 3 dungeons. Those sections of the game really are a tutorial and do little to support the actual story of the game. The Ifrit section is also a little on the weak side for veteran gamers but I'd say it's still needed because that's where the real story starts (with the demonstration of the primal threat).

It will be interesting to see how the promised new starting point for new characters gets handled once it's introduced (hopefully with 7.0).

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Sorry I didn't see this before for some reason. I mostly agree - Great writeup. :)

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Originally Posted by drtasteyummy

FF16 was like Devil May Cry mixed with Game of Thrones, and then sprinkled with some Final Fantasy vibes. There wasn't even a twist or anything really. On top of that, it had horrible FPS, bad keybindings, out of nowhere dialogue mixups, poor lip sync, and animations from 2010. The way most characters interacted was quite like Skyrim, the only thing missing was the zoom in and people think that game is the Game of the Year? It's a bootleg God of War at best.

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I'd also noticed a fair amount of typos in the item descriptions, various flavor text entries, and the speech captions. Plus a number of instances where evasion windows and attack hitboxes don't match up with the enemy's animations.

The parts I get to play are entertaining and enjoyable mostly but I feel like overall I've watched more of the game than play it due to all the exposition breaks and cutscenes. It's not a bad game. However it's not the magum opus that will redefine anything in the gaming world. As it stands I kind of feel like this actually was a spin-off project that was given a number to be marketed as the primary franchise due to other somewhat recent endeavors not panning out like they had hoped. Essentially using that number designation to push sales which has caused a rather noticeable side effect of causing an ever increasing amount of division between gamers as very sizeable amounts of long time FF fans have voiced concerns of this title signaling that SE is taking the FF franchise away from the RPG fans that gave the series it's rise to prominence to give it to a different audience that has proven numerous times in the past to kill titles and franchises completely. There's also a sizeable number of longtime fans that are genuinely upset FF16 was turned into an action game rather than being given a meaty new RPG installment made specifically for PS5 hardware.

I was well aware of the combat in FF16 being action oriented. That didn't really bother me. However I was genuinely disappointed in the almost complete lack of mechanical depth the game has in regards to build options. We can choose what Eikons and abilities to slot once you progress far enough to have choices. And you can use relics to either obtain a few extra stat points or gain some effects that for the most part felt rather minor with a possible exception of the Berserk Ring which basically gives you a mini limit break every time you do a precision dodge. Your 3 primary gear slots are just basically stat point stickers. Elements don't matter, damage types don't matter, Your sword will hurt a gelatinous Flan just as much as it does a goblin. You can burn liquid flames to death... Kind of reminds you of this game in that regard doesn't it?

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Originally Posted by sharknado

Sproutbringer helped a lot with that but still, the game doesn't have problems.

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Is that a typo or did you really just say that FF14 doesn't have problems?

I'm not sure there can be ANY good faith discussion with anyone who thinks FF14 doesn't have problems.

For my part, I have praised FF14's story, visual design, and sound design, in case you start constructing a strawman.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

I don't think the "Very Easy" mode should be gone with, for the sake of people who can't play well, but want to see the story...

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This.

Whilst this is humiliating to admit, I was (am) sufficiently terrible at the gameplay that I probably wouldn't have finished the MSQ without this option. :(

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Originally Posted by TheDecay

Is that a typo or did you really just say that FF14 doesn't have problems?

I'm not sure there can be ANY good faith discussion with anyone who thinks FF14 doesn't have problems.

For my part, I have praised FF14's story, visual design, and sound design, in case you start constructing a strawman.

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Sharknado is giving me Hardcore Casual vibes
https://i.imgur.com/bo0Rlys.jpg