Your Opinion on the Current State of Job Identity/Balance in 6.4?

Ah, another sample of "Renathras writes a six page essay that's incorrect about a game mechanic, and then when people tell him he has no idea what he's talking about, he erupts in rage and lies about his original, easily-quotable position"

Must be a day that ends in Y.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Semirhage

Ah, another sample of "Renathras writes a six page essay that's incorrect about a game mechanic, and then when people tell him he has no idea what he's talking about, he erupts in rage and lies about his original, easily-quotable position"

Must be a day that ends in Y.

---

I marked it on my calendar!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

You can do some teeny-tiny stutter-steps around the field, if your spell has a longer cast time, which means for any PROTRACTED MOVEMENT, you're going to need to use some other resource. You can handle almost all the movement you need on WHM by moving between casts (slidecast for 0.5 sec + 1.0 sec of free walking movement), and when you can't, Swiftcast or Lilies, Dia in a pinch, Regen in some optimization cases can get you the rest of the way.

If you have a BLM that has to move 15 yalms, for a mechanic going off in 3.0 sec, you aren't getting there with slidecasting!

---

You neglected the part of your quote where you said: "Spells with a cast time longer than the GCD don't typically allow this" and proceeded to list off the very spells I demonstrated do allow for slide casting. The whole point of my response to you is the claim Black Mage and Red Mage can't slidecast with those specific spells when they absolutely can. You've now moved the goalpost to try and argue that isn't actual slidecasting and what you actually meant was what healers do with their nuke. Both are examples of slide casting.

As for this whole "omg, I'm being attacked!!!!" nonsense. I likely wouldn't have even responded had you not so smugly typed what I quoted; that "Maybe don't call people out on things they can school you on."

Maybe don't throw stones in that glass house of yours.

HB to try and get the topic back on the topic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

I likely wouldn't have even responded had you not so smugly typed what I quoted; that "Maybe don't call people out on things they can school you on."

---

You mean my reply to someone who was trying to be a dick? (Which wasn't, btw, even you)

Spare me. All you had to do was ask a question instead of joining in the hate train. It's not hard, I do it all the time when I read something someone says and think "Wait, that's not quite right. Did they mean...?" instead of trying to pounce on them and contributing to a lynch mob.

You left off the part where I said that SPELLS WITH A CAST TIME (which includes ones longer than the GCD) allow about a 0.5 second window.

MIGHT that be significant? Considering that's what, even by the narrower definition, slidecasting IS?

EDIT:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Semirhage

Ah, another sample of...
Must be a day that ends in Y.

---

Oh look, Semi being her normal cheery self. There's a small part of me that wonders if you're related to Titanmen. I know you aren't an alt of his because your post style, but good god you are vindictive because I called you out once for being selfish and hit too close to home, so you can (rarely) pretty much never let it go.

It must be a day ending in Y, as you do never disappoint at your eagerness to join dogpiles on people. It's the fastest way to prove there's an unfair dogpile happening, in fact - if Semi has shown up to join it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tearagion

lol, unreal reply, just admit you didn't know what slidecasting is, and that you have no idea about BLM

---

rofl! I have no intention to lie to aid your ego, my dear troll. Looks like you want to compete with Titanmen for my affection, but he won't propose. Too shy, I suppose. Perhaps you will?
You'll just have to get over being wrong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raikai

On that topic, ironically... As meme as people make BLU to be, I genuinely have more fun healing with it because it comes in reverse of the mainstream healers: you'll spend a good portion of your gcds actually casting healing actions, but you'll get a bunch of strong damaging oGCDs to use between them - you still use damaging gcds, but is more or less "heal>heal>damage>heal>damage>damage>heal>etc".

The point of discontent, to me, is the lack of healing action diversity, but hopefully the update we'll get in about a month and half will improve the kit. Oh, and of course, make tanks less paper wet squishy, because it directly impacts on the healer stress.

---

Hey, someone actually interested in discussing the topic rather than being a member of the mob. Thanks for being a decent person and actually doing that.

BLU is definitely a different take on it. I kinda wish they'd have BLU available for general content. Won't ever happen, but its take on Healing is certainly distinct from the other Healers, which is something the game needs more of, I think. More diversity of playstyles within the existing roles. And BLU makes it work pretty well with its own unique flavor that is VERY distinct from the other Healers at present.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

So which is it now?

---

Yes or no answers, please:

1) Do you have "about 0.5 sec on a 2.5 sec cast", latency dependent, to move on as a spell completes, or no?
(You might be on about other spells having a similar time, but this also depends on the GCD triggered by the spell, the player's latency, and in any case, doesn't make the above statement untrue.)

2) Can you move significantly farther with a 1.5 or 2.0 sec cast spell without clipping your GCD than with a 2.8 or 3.0 sec cast spell, or no?
(Though there are some weird exceptions to things that alter the GCD itself that they specifically trigger, like RDM's Enchanted melee strikes, which don't even all have the same one as I mentioned before - 1.5, 1.5, 2.2 - or SMN having 1.5, 2.5, 3.0, and 3.5 depending on which phase and which spell...)

3) Is moving in the window between that point (the point you can move without canceling your spell cast, even before the animation goes off) and the next GCD starting slidecasting, or is it not?
(This honestly may be the point of conflict since some people measure slidecasting from the point you can move up until the GCD allows another cast and - apparently - some people only include the half-second and consider the rest of the movement period...something else. Regardless, the whole of that period is what's used for repositioning without losing DPS/clipping the GCD. Which was the entire point of the prior discussion before it was so rudely derailed.)

4) Can BLM function, as a GCD harcasting class, within the current encounter design model that requires high mobility, or is it currently incapable of engaging functionally in current designed content?

5) Given (4), does it stand to reason that a Healer that also used hardcasts and GCD healing could fit within the same mobility model?
(Either with extra movement tools, like BLM has - regardless of what anyone wants to define terms as or how narrowly, BLM does have tools that allow movement, and I'm not sure why anyone would contest a point so factual - or with shorter cast times, which also allow more movement, or a combination of both.)

Note that (5) is the actual topic of discussion before this tangent.

(You're right about Medica 2, though. I guess Holy IS the only WHM spell left that takes up the entire GCD at this point.)

.

Anyway, the topic is what it was, but if no one wants to talk about it, then no point continuing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

(You're right about Medica 2, though. I guess Holy IS the only WHM spell left that takes up the entire GCD at this point.)

---

I forgot to mention it yesterday evening, but Raise is probably a better example.

You've probably had those moments where you're hard casting a raise, a mechanic ground marker targets you but you manage to successfully squeeze out the raise whilst dodging the marker before the raise cast ends? That's slidecasting in it's purest form.

To answer your questions at Rein:

1) Yes for the most part. When the EU servers switched location it changed the timing we needed to use to slide cast, it didn't make as big a difference to the distance we could move mid cast as you might expect, but it did move the window enough to need to adjust a little.

2) Of course, with 1 second cast abilities you barely have to stop moving once you get it down. The window for movement is longer, but I'll also argue that the act of slidecasting primarily describes the point in time at which you are moving whilst you still have a cast bar going, thus slide-casting. Technically, you are not casting whilst moving between casts whilst the GCD is still ticking over.

3) Oop, answered in the above. To repeat. No, slide casting refers to the act of moving whilst you have a cast bar up without actually interrupting or dropping the cast. Moving between casts whilst the GCD is on cooldown isn't technically slide casting, rather that is moving between casts. The goal of slidecasting is to increase the amount of movement you have whilst casting irrespective of the cast time vs GCD. You can slide cast Esuna, Holy or Raise. I guess this is confusing because modern short Glare etc cast times effectively just have the old slide cast window baked in, but that doesn't mean you can't use the old methods to increase that movement window further. It's still a relevant habit, just not quite as critical as it used to be.

4) Of course, watch a replay of a top level BLM playing and you'll see them using slidecasting to adjust their position plenty.

5) I mean BLM has a LOT of mobility tools now, I'd be all for getting a slice of that on healers but I suspect SE gave us shorter cast glares so they wouldn't have to.

As an example, that random Euphrosyne clip I linked a while ago:

https://youtu.be/6usab1LjtYE?t=44

@45 seconds in, shuffling around slidecasting, not entirely sure why, probably out of boredom tbh ;)

As an answer to the thread title:

2 minute burst window needs to burn in the fire. Plain and simple first point.

DPS: Personally, I think all of the dps play differently enough so that the 2-minute burst window doesn't hinder them as much. This does, however, result in burst windows feeling same-y because everything is crammed into it.

Healers: lol. lmao. All I can do is really preach what most everyone is saying in the Healer forum. They somehow managed to take the role I'm absolutely awful at in mmo's an absolute snoozefest. Adventure Quest Worlds has deeper combat than the healers in this game, and that's a flash player mmo.

Tanks: I could probably write a thesis on this honestly. However, I will try to be fair here with possibly some minor salt.

Warrior) Fulfills its niche greatly. It's simple, it's unga bunga. It's main problem is that it just gets boring. The party healing on this job is way too goddamn high, it has absolutely no right being so potent with no cost to themselves.

Paladin) This is a bit of a mixed bag for me, I miss the old paladin, but the new one is definitely simpler and easier to execute. Goring Blade needs to be something else other than a 60s high potency skill but I can't believe they'll actually modify it. Getting Bulwark back was nice.

Gunbreaker) This is in a pretty great spot for me, honestly. I don't have very many complaints, if any, about it.

Dark Knight) I've already gone on so many tirades since Shadowbringers launch about it, but I'll try to keep this brief. It's entire identity got neutered when they got rid of Dark Arts instead reworking or revamping it, it barely exists in it's current state. Same thing as Darkside, it might as well be a passive or deleted because that UI element is essentially useless as unless you actively try to it isn't going to fall of. Living Shadow is a great chunk of dps and yet it doesn't feel it, since you just press it and forget about it since there's no interaction. Delirium NEEDS to be something else other than a IR clone and our Blood Gauge needs to have more interaction with our kit because otherwise it will continue to be seen as a Warrior clone with more ogcd's to weave.

Balance has been kinda bad, honestly. The 2-minute burst window and crit variance are severe hinderances, and we could do with potency squishes going into 7.0, otherwise it will persist unless they just make all high potency skills auto direct-crit

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

This is why people on the internet suck:
.
You accuse someone of saying something they didn't say.
Prance around about being wrong.
Prance around about lying.
And idiots support you for being wrong and lying.
.
Thank god the game itself isn't as bad as the forum community is.
.
ALL OF YOU attacking me over this are just PROVING THE INITIAL POINT I MADE CORRECT. You just are so adamant about counter-arguing me at every turn, you didn't bother to realize it.
.
You guys REALLY need to stop being dicks for dogpile points.
.
Holy angry A-hole, Batman!
.
Good god, who peed in your cornflakes? o.O
.
Next time, don't come out like an angry rooster who sat on a corncob and actually bother reading what people wrote and asking them questions if you're confused instead of launching into an unhinged tirade to prove you're better than someone on the internet.
.
Holy POOPIE you guys are desperate to attack me as a person and try to discredit any thing I say so you can wave it around in the future (never admitting when you're wrong yourselves and despite me never doing this to any of you) any chance you get and to avoid actual topics being discussed as much as possible. RNGeezeus!
.
The irony - as I said above a couple times - is that they're so zealous to attack me, they don't realize they're proving my point about GCD hardcast cure Healer Jobs being viable - the thing that was the actual topic of discussion before this tangent of "dogpile on Ren" started... <_<

---

Long long time ago (less than 24 hours), some guy said something very insightful, which I feel you should follow:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

Btw, you shouldn't be insulting people, whether or not you think they are "speaking out of your ass". If you need to insult people, it's because you don't have the maturity to make your points without childish schadenfreude attempts.

---

Just admit your ignorance and be quiet for once. Your inane rants are getting tiring, I used to read them for entertainment purposes, but now they're just boring.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zairava

Tanks: I could probably write a thesis on this honestly. However, I will try to be fair here with possibly some minor salt.

Warrior) Fulfills its niche greatly. It's simple, it's unga bunga. It's main problem is that it just gets boring. The party healing on this job is way too goddamn high, it has absolutely no right being so potent with no cost to themselves.

Gunbreaker) This is in a pretty great spot for me, honestly. I don't have very many complaints, if any, about it.

---

Warrior already fulfilled the niche of being the simple tank after the 4.2 rework, it was easy to understand but gauge management to maximize your bonus critical hit and the limitations to Infuriate left some room for skill expression.

All that 5.0 and 6.0 did was sandblast all remaining nuance out of the job until nothing but a mindnumbing shell remained.


Gunbreaker was in a great spot when it initially released, the 2-cartridge system allowed for excess Burst Strikes between No Mercy windows in case the boss needed repositioning and provided acess to weave slots in the middle of your burst. Endwalker just tacked random additions to the job that made it clunkier as a result.

Double Down didn't need to cost 2 cartridges, it's already limited by it's cooldown, the 3 cartridges just resulted in the job being punished more for downtime where you can't generate resources and Hypervelocity introduced mandatory weaves to an ability that really didn't need them.

It's still "fine" but they didn't really improve upon it's original design besides maybe HoC.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absurdity

Warrior already fulfilled the niche of being the simple tank after the 4.2 rework, it was easy to understand but gauge management to maximize your bonus critical hit and the limitations to Infuriate left some room for skill expression.

All that 5.0 and 6.0 did was sandblast all remaining nuance out of the job until nothing but a mindnumbing shell remained.


Gunbreaker was in a great spot when it initially released, the 2-cartridge system allowed for excess Burst Strikes between No Mercy windows in case the boss needed repositioning and provided acess to weave slots in the middle of your burst. Endwalker just tacked random additions to the job that made it clunkier as a result.

Double Down didn't need to cost 2 cartridges, it's already limited by it's cooldown, the 3 cartridges just resulted in the job being punished more for downtime where you can't generate resources and Hypervelocity introduced mandatory weaves to an ability that really didn't need them.

It's still "fine" but they didn't really improve upon it's original design besides maybe HoC.

---

Yeah. Warrior is my goto when I just want to turn my brain off for a bit. I would like some more skill expression with infuriate with something instead of nascent chaos, I wasn't a fan of it since it's inception. It just feels...off I suppose. I like how lvl 70 WAR feels more because of that.

As for GNB, those points would be my only real complaints, despite actually liking Hypervelocity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zairava

Yeah. Warrior is my goto when I just want to turn my brain off for a bit. I would like some more skill expression with infuriate with something instead of nascent chaos, I wasn't a fan of it since it's inception. It just feels...off I suppose. I like how lvl 70 WAR feels more because of that.

---

Inner Chaos is literally just old Inner Beast but with fancier VFX effects, so I can see why it would feel underwhelming compared to Fell Cleave.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

Yes or no answers, please[...]

---

1) Yes, we play the same FFXIV

2 and 3) Enjoy my half-a$$ed attempt with MSpaint (Istg I'm being infected by certain somebody from this forum lol)
https://i.gyazo.com/b0eb91936f49d085...1c75a6e727.png

If it's an action with really short cast time like Esuna & Iaijutsu (Yes, SAMs also cast), then you just slide that 'Slidecast' portion toward the left together with the pink line. If it's an action that has longer cast time like Holy III, Flare, Despair, or (Ver)Raise, you just do the opposite.

So to answer your question? Yes, because the free movement window will be longer in shorter cast time actions, but your slidecast window does not change, no matter what action you're using so long it has progress bar. Heck you can even slidecast a quest interactive point by applying the same practice and still get your quest progress.

4) Like Sebazy have mentioned, any BLMs (or anything that uses progress bar, really) that performs meticulously at high end content will always abuse slidecasting when they can, so yes.

Will not answer 5th because it's not specifically the part I (and very likely tearegion too) was confused with your earlier posts. That's for you and Silver's to continue should they wish to.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

5) Given (4), does it stand to reason that a Healer that also used hardcasts and GCD healing could fit within the same mobility model?
(Either with extra movement tools, like BLM has - regardless of what anyone wants to define terms as or how narrowly, BLM does have tools that allow movement, and I'm not sure why anyone would contest a point so factual - or with shorter cast times, which also allow more movement, or a combination of both.).

---

As this is pertaining to our original discussion, I'll answer no because GCDs are fundamentally flawed given a multitude of factors in addition to their cast times.
Let's take something like Golbez ex as an example. Fight requires a good bit of movement to resolve the mechanics in a timely fashion but if at any point someone is clipped by a mechanic, say during Gale 2, it quickly snowballs because you barely have time to even cast Glare, much less Cure 2 to try and heal them before the next mechanic is resolving. Cure 1 doesn't heal enough to help them survive, hell, people barely survive it with a Solace most of the time because the vuln stack they get for their initial screw up and that only covers for 1 person's screw up. If multiple people screw up, they're pretty much dead.

Then, we have the other factors of MP Cost and DPS loss associated with GCD heals. With the exception of Lilies, the overwhelming majority of GCD Heals are too costly to maintain at any consistent level of play and are not DPS neutral. How do you justify a Healer who spends the majority of their time Healing in a game when MP costs for heals are double the cost of the DPS spell and has Enrage encounters so tight that it is mathmatially impossible for a standard comp to clear fights at Minimum ilvl without Healer DPS? What tools can you give healers that would allow that model of gameplay to even be viable? You'd have to not only rework healers entirely but fight design would also need to be greatly changed as well, which is just an unreal expectation of anyone to have of the Devs when they themselves have admitted they don't know what to do with one of the Healers.

It does not work for this game.

I kind of have to disagree here, Silver.

First, GCD healing doesn't necessitate that they would all have cast times, let alone GCD-length ones.

Moreover, similar to how Kenki can hold up to 1819 effective potency bankably (since our analog here is healing/cure potency), you could just have GCD-generated oGCD value that would be just enough for covering a period of movement requirements.

There's also your older, more traditional ways of dealing with those situations: pre-application of sustain, such as through HoTs or absorbs. Just don't leave them absurdly pathetic compared to your free/CD-based healing, and the design is completely viable.

MMOs with healing and movement requirements far more chaotic/frenetic and intense than ours still manage with GCD healers.

Quote:

---

Then, we have the other factors of MP Cost and DPS loss associated with GCD heals.

---

That's not a fundamental issue, though. It's incidental one. Solely time-based / free healing (oGCD heals not generated by GCD heals or otherwise time-gated means of potency recovery) are flagrantly excessive and overpowered. If they were reined in, there'd be no issue.

Even without reining in the excessive oGCD heals (for which our damage ceiling has been ever lowered to support), it's not necessarily or even likely a problem, just like BLM's low %damage coming from oGCDs/time-generated resources is not a fundamental issue.

Otherwise, you're saying the likes of that neither Savage Dungeons nor a low-self-healing tank can exist in this game, because Warrior exists in its current broken state. You... fix the broken thing before basing off its example what would or would not be "fundamentally" broken/unworkable.



Consider: Before our healing was almost entirely oGCD based, healer damage ceilings were considerably higher despite having a higher potency cost for any healing... precisely because both your relative healing and damage outputs were taxed to support all that free healing. We didn't gain actually free damage from making our healing "free"; we just pre-paid for the opportunity to spam more repetitively.

Opposite that, a more GCD-based healer wouldn't have any greater combined rDPS+HPS, but they would have more agency over which way their resources swing by the simple fact that those two resources have to be balanced around their use-conflicts, much like Stormblood Scholar had more swing available to it with its more worthwhile Energy Drain or ARR WHM had due to its filler damage being 210p* Stone II vs. Ruin's original 100p, or its original 240p Holy spam (while Miasma II was at the time a 24s DoT, iirc).

*(WHM's potency drops for every rank of Stone are more a matter of the conversion of mages' Weapon DPS damage contribution, but the gap between it and Ruin then and now should point out the value that was perceived to fall into Carbuncle auto-attacks or Eos/Selene auto-heals. ACN/SCH/SMN was locked into a prepayment on / specialization towards damage or healing that they then couldn't swing towards/via greater ppgcd. Beyond that, too, the value locked into, say, 3 Lustrates per minute (20% each until 2.1, 25% each after) kept their actual healing ppgcd low, too, outside of crit Adlos; at least then, though, Energy Drain had a decent bit of punch relative to the rest of SCH's skills, so they could get some swing there despite their pet.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absurdity

Warrior already fulfilled the niche of being the simple tank after the 4.2 rework, it was easy to understand but gauge management to maximize your bonus critical hit and the limitations to Infuriate left some room for skill expression.

All that 5.0 and 6.0 did was sandblast all remaining nuance out of the job until nothing but a mindnumbing shell remained.


Gunbreaker was in a great spot when it initially released, the 2-cartridge system allowed for excess Burst Strikes between No Mercy windows in case the boss needed repositioning and provided acess to weave slots in the middle of your burst. Endwalker just tacked random additions to the job that made it clunkier as a result.

Double Down didn't need to cost 2 cartridges, it's already limited by it's cooldown, the 3 cartridges just resulted in the job being punished more for downtime where you can't generate resources and Hypervelocity introduced mandatory weaves to an ability that really didn't need them.

It's still "fine" but they didn't really improve upon it's original design besides maybe HoC.

---

I still consider HoC a downgrade, design-wise, from HoS simply because its value became that much less timing-dependent, and therefore that much less rewarding.

Hypervelocity I'm fine with. Honestly, Double Down I'm also fine with. I don't particularly like it, but neither do I think it's bad.

If we're having to constrain thematic territory just because some other tank deals with downtime better, then either leverage alternative advantages or fix the outlier.

Or address the mechanic itself in a way that doesn't detract from theme: Do we really need a button that generates immediate ammo on pull to compensate for its being a builder-spender system, vs. just letting GNB generate ammo over time (scaling with GCD speed) and making it therefore a spender-rebuilder system? Would it be so awful to trade Bloodfest instead to an ability that grants Haste and, further, the frequency of ammo generation or that refunds every other ammo spent after it's pressed for a set duration?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absurdity

Inner Chaos is literally just old Inner Beast but with fancier VFX effects, so I can see why it would feel underwhelming compared to Fell Cleave.

---

Since they left the XI Upheaval animation still unused, I was kind of hoping at least copy that over for the new single-target Wrath/Beast skill, instead of literally just the-pre-upgraded-animation-but-with-more-yellow-and-orange.

Alas, in XIV, 'minimum effort [=] best [level of] effort'? ???

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

I forgot to mention it yesterday...

---

Yeah, that's what I meant by the 0.5 sec window on every cast. It's also why I specified movement distances.

[Reply to a non-topical post, ignore]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deo14

Long long time ago

---

Other than calling someone lying about me out as lying about me - which isn't an insult, it's a statement of fact - and noting someone else was EXTREMELY angry for no reason at all, none of those are insults.
Saying you're dogpiling when you're dogpiling isn't an insult. (And the simple solution is to stop dogpiling).
Saying you didn't read my post when you clearly didn't read my post (or what it was responding to) isn't an insult.
Pointing out that your attacks on me are actually proving my point right isn't an insult.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deo14

Just admit your ignorance and be quiet for once.

---

I already said it, but I'll say it again: I'm not going to lie to help your ego. No amount of unhniged ranting on your part is going to change that, nor your attempts to silence someone you don't like. Try to silence someone else. They'll probably tell you off just the same, though.
I'm not trying to insult you, but I'm done trying to deal with career haters that just want to be rude and pick fights and derail discussions and try to single people out for attack and ridicule. I oppose that when I'm not the one being attacked and I oppose it when I am. I hate bullies, and I won't bow to your bullying, either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

...

---

Yeah, it may be a definitional thing. It's why I pointed out all casts have a small window of about half a second, but that ones less than the GCD allow considerable overall movement for dealing with mechanics. You ignored (5), but (5) was the context of the conversation and WHY that's important. Specifically why, if Jobs having to rely on that 0.5 sec window are still viable under the current high movement system, than Jobs with even more free movement would also be viable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

It does not work for this game.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I kind of have to disagree here, Silver.
...

---

I'm in agreement with Shurrikhan.

Healing was nearly completely GCD based (especially on WHM) in ARR, and still largely GCD based in HW.

And quite a few of your complaints are variables:

1) MP costs - MP costs don't have to stay what they are. There's nothing set in stone that says Cure 2 MUST cost 1000 MP. It didn't always.

2) GCD focus doesn't mean oGCDs don't exist. Even in ARR, WHM had Benediction and SCH had Lustrate.

3) Instant cast and 1.5 sec cast also can exist in GCD based gameplay. Generally speaking, you could make the system where faster casting/quick acting spells either cost a resource (Lilies) or cost larger amounts of MP to limit their use to more emergency situations (for better or worse, WoW did this in Cataclysm; the healing overall was imbalanced because encounter damage was still tuned up at near-Wrath levels, which exceeded what the healing kits could handle, but the concept of having "fast but inefficient" heals has merit). When you don't have time to cast a Cure 2, you cast a Solace, for example. And you could have a system that had very fast casting healing spells but that cost more, like SGE already does with Eukrasia (yes, it casts their shields - but those are still GCDs with an "effective" cast time of 1 sec due to Eukrasia's CD, but which heal for more total than a mere Prognosis/Diagnosis when you include the shield).

4) If the game was actually balanced around this, then the "DPS loss" wouldn't be an issue, as it would either be refunded in some ways (Misery, Toxicon if it actually was balanced for it, etc), or encounter Enrage timers would be balanced based on the assumption of Healers doing lower DPS. This is also a numbers adjustment, not a mechanics adjustment. SGE already is borderline there in some ways. If Toxicon was damage neutral, GCD healing with shields for SGE would actually be viable. Lilies on WHM are GCD heals (no cast times, but still GCD) that refund their damage with Misery, making WHM's current GCD-focused healing style (it has oGCDs, but a lot of its ambient healing is GCD based and using Lilies is actually both a DPS gain and MP management tool) and already work within the current system.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

Other than calling someone lying about me out as lying about me - which isn't an insult, it's a statement of fact - and noting someone else was EXTREMELY angry for no reason at all, none of those are insults.
Saying you're dogpiling when you're dogpiling isn't an insult. (And the simple solution is to stop dogpiling).
Saying you didn't read my post when you clearly didn't read my post (or what it was responding to) isn't an insult.
Pointing out that your attacks on me are actually proving my point right isn't an insult.

I already said it, but I'll say it again: I'm not going to lie to help your ego. No amount of unhniged ranting on your part is going to change that, nor your attempts to silence someone you don't like. Try to silence someone else. They'll probably tell you off just the same, though.
I'm not trying to insult you, but I'm done trying to deal with career haters that just want to be rude and pick fights and derail discussions and try to single people out for attack and ridicule. I oppose that when I'm not the one being attacked and I oppose it when I am. I hate bullies, and I won't bow to your bullying, either.

---

Damn, that's very generous definition of what is and isn't insult - surely it applies for others too, and not just for you, right? You can check my post history, my "insults" are very mild compared to you straight up calling others dicks and calling me specifically an "angry rooster who sat on a corncob" (I appreciate the creativity) and suggested that someone peed in my cornflakes. What the hell dude, I don't even like cornflakes, they're bland and tasteless. But I appreciate you calling me Batman, that's very cool.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

You guys REALLY need to stop being dicks for dogpile points.
.
Holy angry A-hole, Batman!
.
Good god, who peed in your cornflakes? o.O
.
Next time, don't come out like an angry rooster who sat on a corncob and actually bother reading what people wrote and asking them questions if you're confused instead of launching into an unhinged tirade to prove you're better than someone on the internet.

---

Don't be surprised that people dogpile on you when you spew such a dumb bullshit and then you even double and triple down. Almost as if your actions have consequences, crazy right? I don't know whether you even remember it, but I did try to engage with you in real discussions back in NIN thread. But yeah, one of your first responses was that you made up a new term "button inflation", then I started losing faith in you more and more.

Insults never prove or disprove any points. Yes, it's childish (and I'm very in touch with my inner child), but if you have valid point and throw insult in there, the point is still valid, like it or not.

Quote:

---

No amount of unhniged ranting on your part is going to change that, nor your attempts to silence someone you don't like.

---

I won't try to claim that I'm not ranting every now and then, but you're really not the one to speak of unhinged rants.

And yes, silencing someone isn't a nice thing (I never claimed to not be an asshole), but honestly, being quiet for few days would be good for you. Try to listen for a while, you won't learn new things by speaking, and especially not if you're so dismissive and disagree just to support your own arguments.

Now that everything is clear, I hope you feel informed, and if not, then:

https://i.imgur.com/AAIJ4dn.png

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

Consider yourself informed, now.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deo14

:

https://i.imgur.com/AAIJ4dn.png

---

I will be taking this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zairava

As an answer to the thread title:

2 minute burst window needs to burn in the fire. Plain and simple first point.

---

While I agree the 2 minutes burst window is definitely hampering design, I don't think it is the only offender just the biggest offender.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SieyaM

While I agree the 2 minutes burst window is definitely hampering design, I don't think it is the only offender just the biggest offender.

---

combine it with hitboxes so big to the point where melee dont have to disengage from the boss therefore have 0 risk because you can 100% uptime leads to why melee are so strong this expansion

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dekent

I feel like the problem is the game is designed around the 120 second burst rule, and every fight is just a DPS check with an enrage timer.

---

The 120 Burst window is the biggest problem in terms of battle design, it makes all the fights feel samey and playing your jobs becomes extremely monotonous.

The devs have placed a huge limitation in how they can design their fight and job designs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ivtrix

combine it with hitboxes so big to the point where melee dont have to disengage from the boss therefore have 0 risk because you can 100% uptime leads to why melee are so strong this expansion

---

Well that and the simple fact that their damage wasn't nerfed despite that reduced vulnerability. Which, admittedly, makes some sense, since no one likes to have their throughput ceiling reduced just because their skill ceiling was, especially given that... no one asked for that reduction to skill ceiling.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I kind of have to disagree here, Silver.

---

This is a long winded way of saying, we should just return to SB times of content design (Hopefully just not with the same Lily System of the time). That isn't to say that SB was the best in term of job design because there was still a lot of jank but it was probably the most agreeable middle ground in terms of Healer Gameplay by a mile (again, discounting the Lily system at the time). Had nothing regarding healer but the Lily System been changed going into ShB, I'd argue that the game would have been as close to perfect as it would have gotten but sadly, the Devs decided that Healers needed to be lobotomized and Tanks needed more steroids because they could still feel pain, hence where we're at today. They've doubled down on the idiocy of their design philosophy that a GCD healer simply has no place in this game anymore, not with the game as it currently exists and I doubt the Devs will correct their course after sticking their heels in the ground for so long now.

While I roughly agree with this...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

we should just return to SB times of content design

---

...that actually has very little to do with this...

Quote:

---

a GCD healer simply has no place in this game anymore

---

The arguments against one are essentially long-winded ways of saying, "if underpowered, it'd be underpowered."

A healer whose kit can and should avoid and all GCD heals not augmented by powerful CDs is effectively just pre-taxed for the potency of those CDs (both those augmenting GCDs and those directly providing sustain [be that in percentile or flat mitigation or restoration]). A healer who has little to no CD-based value, then, needs only enough extra ppm averaged across its GCDs to make up for that. That's it.

Just look at any of the [DPS] or [Combined HPS+DPS] graphs of various healers or healer-pairs as HPS requirements increase. The GCD healer will simply have a higher max HPS and, separately, DPS, though with no advantage to combined HPS+DPS and with nearly the whole of its tradeoff being near-linear, instead of that portion starting only after the healer in question has consumed all their "free" resources.

It's fine. At worst, it invites a bit of chadding during burst windows, since their offensive ppgcd would be significantly higher than healers whose offensive ceilings have been pre-taxed to support all that "free" healing.

__________

Sidenote:
If they'd actually just reiterated on Stormblood Secret of the Lilies to where it wasn't left in its crap nascent state... I think it'd likely be preferable to the Shadowbringers+ design, since it allowed you to use resources generated from any number of GCD heals (not CD-gated) towards any form of oGCD output (be it healing, mitigation, or double-purpose). It'd just need an option or two more among offensive oGCDs for consuming the (greatly, greatly increased) ability-acceleration on offensive potency recovery, especially if healing requirements were to remain lighter than they were in Stormblood/Heavensward.

Should it have used a more granular system, such as potency itself just building up available CDR, with zero RNG attached? Absolutely. But that would also literally be simpler than what they went with, and far more button-effective and versatile than the ShB SotL system that replaced it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

While I roughly agree with this...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

we should just return to SB times of content design

---

...that actually has very little to do with this...

---

SB WHM was pretty bad. SCH was bad at first but got better after that initial softness. AST's cards were weird after some of the changes, but...functional.

But WHM was not. Struggled the whole expansion, the mechanics didn't even make sense, and especially the early SB iteration of Lilies where you had a CHANCE - not guarantee, CHANCE - to proc them off Cure heals. It was like WORSE Freecure. Or was that Plenary? Because it was horribad initially, too. For all the complaints of Aero 3, I will never understand anyone that says they think SB WHM was better than ShB or EW WHM, because SB WHM was the absolute worst iteration of a Healer Job in this game's entire history. And when little healing was needed, SB WHM was actually more Stonespammy! Bit sad, but ShB WHM should have been introduced in SB. Who knows, maybe they wouldn't have even had to change the overall Healer paradigm had that happened. But here we are.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deo14

Damn, that's very generous definition of what is and isn't insult

---

Not really, it's pretty commonly used. But it's whatever. At this point you're just trying to wage a feud for god only knows what reason, derailing any thread you can to get your way. If you want to act like this, that's up to you, but I'm not going to help you.

Ngl, though, that is a pretty badass picture. Maybe next time I'll wear the Dwarven helmet. Could be pretty cool.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BaconBits

I will be taking this.

---

As will I. Not everyday someone who hates you accidentally messes up and makes something badass for you in spite of themselves. :D

EDIT:

And I guess I'll copy this here for posterity.

You can engage in this feud if you want, but I'm going to try and stay above it. If I respond, it will continue to be in HBs to not detract from ACTUAL discussions going on, and it may be me just posting the same thing over and over. You can either decide to act like a mature person, or you can keep doing...whatever this is, but it's beneath the rest of us.

Oh, but truly:

Thank you for the picture, btw. I love it. :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deo14

....

---

Oh, you're still going, I see?

As I told you, I'm not interested in helping you derail threads with your personal vendetta against me. You'll have to find someone else. I'll spell this out exactly once for you:

Slidecasting is:

1) When the cast time of an action is less than the GCD, allowing you free movement from before the spell ends until the GCD has completed and you can take another action. You can ARGUE if you want that that's both slidecasting AND free movement in the rest of the GCD (similar to movement after an Instant cast), if you want, but it includes the slidecast as part of that time and the entire window is used for movement. Recall the context of the conversation was about if GCD classes can function in the current movement heavy environment, and I was pointing out how much movement is available even with GCD casts and especially with 1.5 and 2 sec GCD casts of most heals. (Of course, as you say, you don't KNOW the context because you butted into a conversation in-progress to take a side, not bothering to understand what you were wading into and then going on SEVERAL unhinged rants and a now two day crusade against a poster for your own failure of understanding.)

2) ALL SPELLS (whether less than the GCD or greater) have around a 0.5 sec window they can ALSO do this in.

3) Spells with a cast time longer than the GCD typically don't allow much room for movement.
NOTE: One I was mistaken on here, though, is Slipstream, as while it DOES have a lengthy cast time of 3.0 sec, it has a quirk where it extends the recast time to 3.5, meaning it's more akin to casting a 2.0 sec cast in a 2.5 sec GCD. But it's kind of a weird/unique case.

4) BLM main spells take up the entire GCD, leaving them "a very narrow slidecast window"; only the 0.5 sec, which is "much smaller" than the movement allowed by WHM's 1.5 or 2.0 sec casts..

.

Do you get it now? You've been harassing me over you not being able to understand a person talking about a series of things. The fact I note spells with cast times have the window AND the BLM can do it even with spell casts equal to the GCD shows that your "B-b-but REN SAID that if you have a cast that isn't LESS THAN THE GCD you CANNOT SLIDECAST!!!" is a full on lie. Because, interestingly, that statement never appears in the post or the quote. Somewhere else in the thread I said something else, but the quote you want to hang your hat on has me no where saying "Slidecasting is ONLY spells that are less than the GCD".

What DOES appear in the post? Me saying ALL SPELLS with cast times have around 0.5 sec window to slidecast. Meaning I directly stated that spells with cast times longer than the GCD have slidecast windows.

Do you get it now? You've been harassing me and demanding I "admit I was wrong" all this time over your own inability to read and understand a post, and your fervent desire to "prove me wrong" over just asking me "Did you mean THIS or THIS?"

And the reason I didn't put in the first part is because it was already in the part he quoted, so it seemed redundant.

"You can still slidecast with spells that have cast time longer than recast" IS LITERALLY WHAT I SAID WHEN I SAID ALL SPELLS AS THAT INCLUDES SPELLS WITH CAST TIMES LONGER THAN THE GCD.

Now, you can keep up your feud or not, I just don't care, but I'm not going to bother trying to correct you more or engage in your petty tit-for-tat indulgence ranting.

.

EDIT2: Nested quote fix

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

But WHM was not. Struggled the whole expansion, the mechanics didn't even make sense, and especially the early SB iteration of Lilies where you had a CHANCE - not guarantee, CHANCE - to proc them off Cure heals. It was like WORSE Freecure. Or was that Plenary? Because it was horribad initially, too. For all the complaints of Aero 3, I will never understand anyone that says they think SB WHM was better than ShB or EW WHM, because SB WHM was the absolute worst iteration of a Healer Job in this game's entire history. And when little healing was needed, SB WHM was actually more Stonespammy! Bit sad, but ShB WHM should have been introduced in SB. Who knows, maybe they wouldn't have even had to change the overall Healer paradigm had that happened. But here we are.

---

Easy, you could ignore the entire Lily system and play more or less exactly like HW WHM, just without MP issues thanks to Thin Air. Aero 2 and 3 having different durations also kept the Stonespam from becoming monotonous.
My chief complaints in SB for WHM was the removal of Protect and Stoneskin, Cleric Stance losing all functionality for a cheap 5% buff and Divine Seal becoming a Role Action. Making Esuna a role action was also annoying because if you got an instance that required Esuna, you'd have to move around something just to slot it in and heaven forbid you get a Healer that was too lazy or forgetful to do so (ExDeath's opening Doom killed me numerous times back then because neither healer would have it slotted whenever I played DPS).

Despite all that though, I would gladly go back to that time if for no other reason than Aero 3.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Easy, you could ignore the entire Lily system and play more or less exactly like HW WHM, just without MP issues thanks to Thin Air. Aero 2 and 3 having different durations also kept the Stonespam from becoming monotonous.
My chief complaints in SB for WHM was the removal of Protect and Stoneskin, Cleric Stance losing all functionality for a cheap 5% buff and Divine Seal becoming a Role Action. Making Esuna a role action was also annoying because if you got an instance that required Esuna, you'd have to move around something just to slot it in and heaven forbid you get a Healer that was too lazy or forgetful to do so (ExDeath's opening Doom killed me numerous times back then because neither healer would have it slotted whenever I played DPS).

Despite all that though, I would gladly go back to that time if for no other reason than Aero 3.

---

No no, I mean you had about the same number of casts in your rotation as now, when no major healing was needed.

In practice, SB WHM cast Aero 2 3.333... times per minute and Aero 3 2.5 times per minute. This is a total of 5.833... GCD casts per minute that weren't Stone IV.
In practice, EW WHM casts Dia 2 times per minute, 3 Afflatus (Solace/Rapture) per minute, and 1 Afflatus Misery per minute. This is a total of 6 GCD casts per minute that aren't Glare III.

So SB WHM actually cast more Stone per minute on average than ShB/EW WHM did WHEN healing was taken care of.

The main distinction comes down to when some healing is needed, ShB/EW takes care of it organically as part of the rotation (chiefly with Rapture + oGCDs) while SB WHM might have devoted a few additional GCDs of Medica 2 or Cure 3 (though it did have Assize and Asylum and such back then, too). So for no healing and light healing (that oGCDs can cover), EW WHM is more non-Glarespam than SB WHM was. For periods of heavy healing, they're also around the same since both would have to dig into GCD heals. But for periods of moderate healing that exceeded oGCD healing capacity but didn't get to the point of necessitating a LOT of GCD heals, that's where SB WHM might have been casting a few more GCDs of non-Stone per min to EW's WHM's non-Glare.

On average, though, EW WHM is around equal in number of Glare casts per minute to SB WHM with Stone.

I think this is something a lot of people forget. People think about HW WHM when they think of it doing a lot more, as they'd be right - because it had an additional DoT with a pretty short duration that, itself, matched Afflatus casts. I think HW WHM had something like 9 non-Stone casts per minute in the no healing situation. And its oGCD kit was what it is now (Assize, Asylum, Tetra, Benediction; it lacked Benison, I suppose?), so around equal there, though I think some CDs might have been different, but I'm honestly not certain of that... But the point being that it had to use more GCDs on healing, breaking up the Stonespam even more.

But compared to StormBlood, since that's often touted as the high water mark for healer design, current WHM has about the same nukespam once fights are down to "no GCD healing required".

What I'd like to check on is just how much GCD healing WAS required back then by the average Savage WHM, since that'd really be the distinction factor.

EDIT2:

And yes, I'd love to check on the forbidden site. But stuff that old (e.g. Chaos/Omega) has been archived, so I can't get it to show a nice detailed fight breakdown without a sub or something. That said, I had to go to the 63rd clear to find the FIRST WHM. All the other parties were AST/SCH.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

SB WHM was pretty bad. SCH was bad at first but got better after that initial softness. AST's cards were weird after some of the changes, but...functional.

---

The heck does any of this have to do with what you quoted? We're discussing gameplay and overarching design philosophies, not the polish of this or that particular mechanic.

Spear being only about half the value of Balance, for instance, wouldn't have to be copied over verbatim. What would distinguish it from

SCH lacking any real uses for its Fairy Gauge, likewise, wouldn't have to remain the case; what differentiates it would be that it'd have more going on in downtime and would see more, even if sparing, use of GCD heals.

Etc., etc.

Quote:

---

For all the complaints of Aero 3, I will never understand anyone that says they think SB WHM was better than ShB or EW WHM, because SB WHM was the absolute worst iteration of a Healer Job in this game's entire history.

---

Because its new mechanic and the job as a whole was undertuned and initially Benison randomly required a Lily for no reason than to pretend that SotL wasn't under a fifth the strength it likely should have been at (and likely needed its functionality adjusted to allow the WHM to accelerate its next use of abilities, not just its next-next use thereof).

How does that have anything to do with a higher portion of GCD healing with higher ppgcd on attacks and heals vs. a higher portion of 'free' healing with lower ppgcd on attacks and heals?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SieyaM

While I agree the 2 minutes burst window is definitely hampering design, I don't think it is the only offender just the biggest offender.

---

I would say also it's the 'gate offender', because there's no way to make jobs more interesting beyond their obligatory job gimmick if it remains intact.

Bet if it lingers through 7.0, the job recipe being:

https://i.imgur.com/3UJNB0q.png

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raikai

the job recipe being:

https://i.imgur.com/3UJNB0q.png

---

Hey now. We can use 20|40 recast times, too!

And we can have up to 3 combos, if you're a DPS, even if beneath the surface they're --outside of, say, BLM/MNK-- just a more button-bloated way to basically create a filler button opposite a per-21|24|30s button.

And, and, and... maybe even a [waste of a] second gauge (Darkside, Fairy Gauge, etc.)!

/thinking face

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

Not really, it's pretty commonly used. But it's whatever. At this point you're just trying to wage a feud for god only knows what reason, derailing any thread you can to get your way. If you want to act like this, that's up to you, but I'm not going to help you.
.
As I told you, I'm not interested in helping you derail threads with your personal vendetta against me. You'll have to find someone else. I'll spell this out exactly once for you:

---

Derailing by focusing on the main part of argument, of course. Check that thread and re-read it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

Ngl, though, that is a pretty badass picture. Maybe next time I'll wear the Dwarven helmet. Could be pretty cool.
Thank you for the picture, btw. I love it. :D

---

Thanks, I wanted to farm some Golbez yesterday, but ended up making that masterpiece instead.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

You can engage in this feud if you want, but I'm going to try and stay above it. If I respond, it will continue to be in HBs to not detract from ACTUAL discussions going on, and it may be me just posting the same thing over and over. You can either decide to act like a mature person, or you can keep doing...whatever this is, but it's beneath the rest of us.

---

Happy to hear that, if only I could be as mature as you! But you can go ahead and continue your discussions with your mouth moving and your ears plugged as always.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

Slidecasting is:
...

---

Now you put in the main part of your comment, finally! No more omitting context, what an upgrade!

But yeah, my point still stands, you keep at this point quadruple downing on your "When the cast time of an action is less than the GCD", which was majority of the slidecasting argument. Sure it's nitpick, it's just somewhat incorrect definition, so why won't you just admit that and move on? Too big ego to admit you were ever wrong? All you had to do was admit your mistake after first person called you out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

Do you get it now? You've been harassing me over you not being able to understand a person talking about a series of things. The fact I note spells with cast times have the window AND the BLM can do it even with spell casts equal to the GCD shows that your "B-b-but REN SAID that if you have a cast that isn't LESS THAN THE GCD you CANNOT SLIDECAST!!!" is a full on lie. Because, interestingly, that statement never appears in the post or the quote. Somewhere else in the thread I said something else, but the quote you want to hang your hat on has me no where saying "Slidecasting is ONLY spells that are less than the GCD".

---

Implying I harrass you for calling you out? You always respond back to me, and so do I. If you don't want me to ""harrass"" you, stop responding, and everyone will be happy they won't need to read our bullshits.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

"B-b-but REN SAID that if you have a cast that isn't LESS THAN THE GCD you CANNOT SLIDECAST!!!"

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

Slidecasting is when the cast time of an action is less than the GCD

---

So are we supposed to cherry pick the right points from your comments? You had incorrect and conflicting info in them, you fucked up, deal with it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

What DOES appear in the post? Me saying ALL SPELLS with cast times have around 0.5 sec window to slidecast. Meaning I directly stated that spells with cast times longer than the GCD have slidecast windows.
.
Do you get it now? You've been harassing me and demanding I "admit I was wrong" all this time over your own inability to read and understand a post, and your fervent desire to "prove me wrong" over just asking me "Did you mean THIS or THIS?"
.
"You can still slidecast with spells that have cast time longer than recast" IS LITERALLY WHAT I SAID WHEN I SAID ALL SPELLS AS THAT INCLUDES SPELLS WITH CAST TIMES LONGER THAN THE GCD.

---

Yes, you said 2 conflicting things, so of course it would be nice to clarify what you meant, but instead you're doubling down and acted like both are correct. It's really dumb nitpick of definition, I agree with that, but none of that would escalate like it did if you just corrected yourself, but instead you went on yet another rant and called everyone names.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

And the reason I didn't put in the first part is because it was already in the part he quoted, so it seemed redundant.

---

Of course. Obviously. Surely. Main part of the argument is very redundant, right?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

Now, you can keep up your feud or not, I just don't care, but I'm not going to bother trying to correct you more or engage in your petty tit-for-tat indulgence ranting.
.
[few paragraphs higher:]
You can engage in this feud if you want, but I'm going to try and stay above it. If I respond, it will continue [rest omitted]

---

At start of this very message you said you will keep engaging with me, but now you won't ?! What the fuck is wrong with you and your conflicting info? Did you mean THIS or THIS? This is the problem, are you gonna double down on this too and engage me but claim you don't or what? Are you going to make another rant where you will call everyone names just because of this? Have you not learned anything?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Hey now. We can use 20|40 recast times, too!

---

2 patch notes later...
<ability name> recast time was changed from 40s to 30s to properly align with the 2 min marks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raikai

I would say also it's the 'gate offender', because there's no way to make jobs more interesting beyond their obligatory job gimmick if it remains intact.

Bet if it lingers through 7.0, the job recipe being:

https://i.imgur.com/3UJNB0q.png

---

What gauge gimmick though? Most of them don't even qualify as that, it's just building gauge and using it on one skill or it's AoE version. Then they can have fluff like free charges of that skill and whatever, but it's mostly identical.

That includes WAR, DRK, SCH, NIN, SAM (to be fair, you use Kenki for gap closer and for disengage), RPR is all about these bland gauges, MCH and I probably missed some. None of these have any real gimmick or mechanic behind it, you just build gauge and spend it on one skill. If your meme about 7.0 would become true, it could end up being an upgrade. But I doubt they will not double down on 2min meta, because not only it has made game terrible for players, but it also made it bad for developers to balance all the outstanding variance and other side effects.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deo14

What gauge gimmick though? Most of them don't even qualify as that, it's just building gauge and using it on one skill or it's AoE version. Then they can have fluff like free charges of that skill and whatever, but it's mostly identical.

That includes WAR, DRK, SCH, NIN, SAM (to be fair, you use Kenki for gap closer and for disengage), RPR is all about these bland gauges, MCH and I probably missed some. None of these have any real gimmick or mechanic behind it, you just build gauge and spend it on one skill. If your meme about 7.0 would become true, it could end up being an upgrade. But I doubt they will not double down on 2min meta, because not only it has made game terrible for players, but it also made it bad for developers to balance all the outstanding variance and other side effects.

---

When I mean 'gimmick', is mostly what you describe: something that looks fancy and intricate, but executes a really simple concept - like some build/spenders that give a false visual cue of depth (RPR, MCH, SCH). I think the only jobs with actual tricks behind their obligatory gimmick are AST, NIN, DNC and maybe RDM, because there's a certain player skill required through the management of that.

For the average player, job identity is summed up as follows:

- Tank that a healer doesn't need to pay much attention to
- Other tanks
- Healer with shields
- Other healers
- DPS that can raise
- DPS that tank has to actually care about placement to help melee DPS
- Other DPS

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

The heck does any of this have to do with what you quoted?

---

Oh, it's the nexted quote thing. Fixed it in the post now. I was agreeing with you.

Specifically this part:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

we should just return to SB times of content design

---

My post was talking about how SB wasn't really the best. It was good for SCH after 4.1, and it was decent for AST though like you say some things were weird. But it was a horrible time to be a WHM. ShB and EW have been far better for WHM other than 6.0-6.1 specifically due to their MP issues being hurt by the Thin Air nerf but Misery not being damage neutral until 6.1 to make up for that (~1600 MP a minute of pseudo-regen by not having to spend on Glares)

In short, I was agreeing with you, not disagreeing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raikai

2 patch notes later...
<ability name> recast time was changed from 40s to 30s to properly align with the 2 min marks.

---

The sad thing is, I could see this happening.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deo14

...

---

/yawn

No.

While there is a part of me that wants to counter and contest and debunk you point by point...I already did that, and it did nothing. So I won't continue feeding you.

I already told you, if you want to have an immature feud, you'll be having it with yourself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deo14

What gauge gimmick though? Most of them don't even qualify as that, it's just building gauge and using it on one skill or it's AoE version. Then they can have fluff like free charges of that skill and whatever, but it's mostly identical.

That includes WAR, DRK, SCH, NIN, SAM (to be fair, you use Kenki for gap closer and for disengage), RPR is all about these bland gauges, MCH and I probably missed some. None of these have any real gimmick or mechanic behind it, you just build gauge and spend it on one skill. If your meme about 7.0 would become true, it could end up being an upgrade. But I doubt they will not double down on 2min meta, because not only it has made game terrible for players, but it also made it bad for developers to balance all the outstanding variance and other side effects.

---

Wait, for SCH, are you talking Aetherflow or Gaerie Gauge? Because Faerie Gauge is pointless and should just be removed at this point (Aetherpact could just be a Sotera-like thing that boosts Eos' healing potency for a bit or a CD that puts a HoT on a specific target), but Aetherflow is pretty useful and has several options to use it with, as well as Recitation allowing some more flexibility there and Dissipation, despite being a really crappy skill that needs a total rework, also having something to do with it.

If you mean Faerie Gauge, though, I 100% agree. They should have left Fey Blessing on the Faerie Gauge and just removed the CD. 30 Gauge for a (pretty small, honestly) AOE heal is completely fair, especially since it's more often that I want to hit a modest AOE heal than it is that I want to hit a channeled modest heal on a single target that also locks me out of my other heals, including my...modest AOE heals.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raikai

When I mean 'gimmick', is mostly what you describe: something that looks fancy and intricate, but executes a really simple concept - like some build/spenders that give a false visual cue of depth (RPR, MCH, SCH). I think the only jobs with actual tricks behind their obligatory gimmick are AST, NIN, DNC and maybe RDM, because there's a certain player skill required through the management of that.

---

Alright, I was imagining gimmick that looks little more intricate, because most of current gauges are simple and look simple at the same time. Except maybe for BLM and SMN, those look complicated while they're not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

/yawn

No.

While there is a part of me that wants to counter and contest and debunk you point by point...I already did that, and it did nothing. So I won't continue feeding you.

I already told you, if you want to have an immature feud, you'll be having it with yourself.

---

But you just fed me. You really like me after all, don't you? And you did say that you'll keep talking to me and that you won't in same comment. But now you did respond to me, so we will continue? If you stop now, that would be even more confusing, since you already responded. Well, whatever, you're already yawning, and seems that you're from NA, so you should be in bed hours ago! Good night.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

Wait, for SCH, are you talking Aetherflow or Gaerie Gauge?

---

Yes, I meant faerie gauge, gauge that is used only for 1 skill might as well be removed and replaced with some CD instead.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deo14

Yes, I meant faerie gauge, gauge that is used only for 1 skill might as well be removed and replaced with some CD instead.

---

Agree with this. Others I can think of offhand:

PLD: Shelltron and Intervention could be a 2 charge system where they share the charges (game code works fine for this, like BRD's shared single target/AOE oGCDs) and with a 25 or 30 sec CD. Would have the same general effect as Oath Gage (you get somewhere in the vicinity of 2.4 sets of 50/120 gauge per minute, which equates to 50 per 25 seconds) does now without the gauge. The gauge is effectively meaningless. In theory it could be used to control Cover and prevent overuse of Cover...except Cover already has its own 120 sec CD and has been a bit nerfed from its original version (still can do cheese with it, but you can do that with or without a gauge cost), so it just reverting to a 120 sec CD with no gauge association wouldn't be an issue. If they were DESPERATE to keep that, they could just make Cover burn one of the shared charges for...reasons.

PLD's, in particular, is stupid like this because it's designed to generate at a set rate (it works on auto-attacks, not using other buttons or completing combos like WAR or GNB's, for example), with the only slowdown being if you have to be out of melee. But this actually works badly, since it means PLD is the only Tank whose short mitigation does not recharge during downtime when there's no targetable enemy, and it would actually be an improvement to either have the gauge just generate per time/every so many seconds OR do the two charge system, since one of the things the Tanks are supposed to be vaguely uniform on IS the availability of their defensives.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

PLD: Shelltron and Intervention could be a 2 charge system where they share the charges (game code works fine for this, like BRD's shared single target/AOE oGCDs) and with a 25 or 30 sec CD. Would have the same general effect as Oath Gage (you get somewhere in the vicinity of 2.4 sets of 50/120 gauge per minute, which equates to 50 per 25 seconds) does now without the gauge. The gauge is effectively meaningless. In theory it could be used to control Cover and prevent overuse of Cover...except Cover already has its own 120 sec CD and has been a bit nerfed from its original version (still can do cheese with it, but you can do that with or without a gauge cost), so it just reverting to a 120 sec CD with no gauge association wouldn't be an issue. If they were DESPERATE to keep that, they could just make Cover burn one of the shared charges for...reasons.

PLD's, in particular, is stupid like this because it's designed to generate at a set rate (it works on auto-attacks, not using other buttons or completing combos like WAR or GNB's, for example), with the only slowdown being if you have to be out of melee. But this actually works badly, since it means PLD is the only Tank whose short mitigation does not recharge during downtime when there's no targetable enemy, and it would actually be an improvement to either have the gauge just generate per time/every so many seconds OR do the two charge system, since one of the things the Tanks are supposed to be vaguely uniform on IS the availability of their defensives.

---

I kinda prefer Oath over just 2 stacks. Right now, you can double weave Intervention and Sheltron in the same window. If those skills were merged, you couldn't do that, because skills go on this 1s CD before you can use another charge. If those 2 skills are split as they are now, it makes more sense to tie them to gauge, than to make some weird shared stack system. Also, you can bet that the moment it goes into stack system, other tanks will demand their short CDs to have 2 stacks too.

Cover should be on 120CD as it is now, but without Oath cost and work as PvP cover, where you fly to your target if you're out of range. It's already situational, and if you need it, you're usually either out of range or don't have Oath. Also, being able to prematurely cancel it would be nice.

Best part about PLD's shenanigans with generating Oath from melee auto attack is that, according to SE's own words, PLD has advantage of range because of magic phase (do you even call it magic phase after 6.3 rework?), which somehow justifies lower damage. So yes, you have advantage of range, but also disadvantage because of that. It's really weird how those two philosophies clash together.

It's kind of hillarious that the tankiest tank with the best invuln and partywide is now also the highest dps.
They should give dark knights a new job quest that rewards them the warrior jobstone.

Unfortunately, just dont see SE changing jobs back at this point. Think at best they could balance things so much that they can slap some entirely new system to jobs, tree, new job tier, skill augmentation, who knows, but yeah... this is likely not going change...