Ungendered sit poses, please?

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Originally Posted by HollowedDoll

You may have noticed that one of the shared poses depend on the rough character height, meaning it wouldn't be as simple as "just scale it", at the end of the day it doesn't matter how simple or not simple it would be, it's extra workload, and you can live without it.

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Female midlanders and miqote have more in common with their male counterparts than they do female highlanders, roegadyn, and lalafell - yet they still share gendered animations. The existence of the universal kneel sit is proof it works and they have the tools. That's it. It's not like I'm demanding every animation. It's asking for four.

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Originally Posted by PyurBlue

You might know more than me, but I don't see why a custom list would require more data to be sent. If what currently happens is sending one of 5 numbers, wouldn't a list just add a 6th or greater number to the same packet of data?

I think this would have to be the case with poses especially because we can select them manually. Every time we do, that information needs to be sent to the server. I'd think auto cpose would do the same thing. It doesn't send the entire list including which poses it's not currently using, it just sends info on what pose is in use.

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To be clear, I am just guessing. But I think it would depend where the randomising is being calculated.

If it's being done at your end and then transmitted each time you change pose, it wouldn't change. But that seems inefficient to have to keep sending new numbers every X seconds.

But if what it does is send the instructions on how to pose your character, and then let the other computer deal with generating a random number pose to shift to each time, then it would need more detailed instructions if it has to skip over some of the possible poses.

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Originally Posted by Caro178

A brief summary of this thread's history:

OP: "I would like the 4 new sit poses to be available for everybody :)"

"Gross! My female Hyur manspreading!"

OP: "We wouldn't be losing existing choices, just expanding on what we already have. We can add a toggle or--"

"Not everything needs to be neutral! Races and genders should be distinct!"

OP: "I just asked for sit poses that are already universal."

"Viera already have nothing and now you want our hair, ears, emotes, laugh, walk cycle, etc."

"No, I want the 4 new sit poses everybody has anyway."

"Why should I play Viera when it's the inferior option?"

OP: "..."

(somewhere in the distance out of nowhere)

"Men in dresses are an ugly eyesore ruining my bubble pink catgirl's immersion. You make everything about politics!"

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https://i.ibb.co/PgM0xGx/012ZExf.gif

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Originally Posted by crystallineAbyss

Female midlanders and miqote have more in common with their male counterparts than they do female highlanders, roegadyn, and lalafell - yet they still share gendered animations. The existence of the universal kneel sit is proof it works and they have the tools. That's it. It's not like I'm demanding every animation. It's asking for four.

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More in common in what way? I don't know the technicalities of models, but I do have a female Roegadyn alt, and there's really nothing different to Midlander besides poses and scale. It's not like male Roegadyn where they're three times the width of other models.

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Originally Posted by crystallineAbyss

Female midlanders and miqote have more in common with their male counterparts than they do female highlanders, roegadyn, and lalafell - yet they still share gendered animations. The existence of the universal kneel sit is proof it works and they have the tools. That's it. It's not like I'm demanding every animation. It's asking for four.

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Sitting on the ground is different, sitting on objects means you would float or sink depending on height unless it's adjusted

Female midlander and miqote don't even share the new sitting animation

It's: Female Miqote, Au Ra
Hyur Female, Highlander, Viera
Elezen Female, Femroe

for Male I think Miqote, Mid, High, Viera share
Roe has it's own
Elezen and Au Ra

Lalas tend to have their own anims and it seems to be the same thing ARR npcs in Uldah do for both genders so there is your "ungendered" pose I guess

they did the distribution this way for a reason outside of just a "whim"

Yes, they have the tools, they literally could do anything, doesn't mean they should just because you want them to.

You're not even asking for 4 new animations as there's 8 total new animations of only 2 of which is universal by gender ( Not counting Lalafell )

Once again, extra workload that they could spend on actually useful things like uhm idk fixing viera hair, or literally anything else.

Lalafells also have that new sitting /cpose that Miqo'te and Viera female got, BTW.

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

Lalafells also have that new sitting /cpose that Miqo'te and Viera female got, BTW.

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Yes, 1 new animation per gender is shared by all members
I can see how the way I wrote it was confusing, In total it'd be 9 animations if you count lalafell but I don't think the ARR npc leg kicking sit would transfer over well to anyone that isn't the size of a potato.

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Originally Posted by Caro178

"Why should I play Viera when it's the inferior option?"

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the guy spouting about becoming an inferior race is probably my favorite addition to this train wreck

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Originally Posted by Iscah

More in common in what way? I don't know the technicalities of models, but I do have a female Roegadyn alt, and there's really nothing different to Midlander besides poses and scale. It's not like male Roegadyn where they're three times the width of other models.

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They were saying size was the factor for why female and male are different but if that were the case, why do the short women share animations with the big women? It's really nothing that different + we have universal animations - like the linkpearl emote! Which doesn't sync up to Viera or Miqo'te ears.

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Originally Posted by HollowedDoll

Sitting on the ground is different, sitting on objects means you would float or sink depending on height unless it's adjusted

Female midlander and miqote don't even share the new sitting animation

It's: Female Miqote, Au Ra
Hyur Female, Highlander, Viera
Elezen Female, Femroe

for Male I think Miqote, Mid, High, Viera share
Roe has it's own
Elezen and Au Ra

Lalas tend to have their own anims and it seems to be the same thing ARR npcs in Uldah do for both genders so there is your "ungendered" pose I guess

they did the distribution this way for a reason outside of just a "whim"

Yes, they have the tools, they literally could do anything, doesn't mean they should just because you want them to.

You're not even asking for 4 new animations as there's 8 total new animations of only 2 of which is universal by gender ( Not counting Lalafell )

Once again, extra workload that they could spend on actually useful things like uhm idk fixing viera hair, or literally anything else.

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Since you're arguing we should just play male characters if we want this so bad, maybe you should stop playing Viera if you want hair and hats so bad.
Do you see how ridiculous of an argument this is, especially with the fact they've been adding universal neutral animations that were previously race and gender specific into cutscenes? That there are plenty of emotes identical across everybody?
It's just a couple of animations. Be serious.

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Originally Posted by crystallineAbyss

Since you're arguing we should just play male characters if we want this so bad, maybe you should stop playing Viera if you want hair and hats so bad.
Do you see how ridiculous of an argument this is, especially with the fact they've been adding universal neutral animations that were previously race and gender specific into cutscenes? That there are plenty of emotes identical across everybody?
It's just a couple of animations. Be serious.

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Using not playing viera to wear hats as a counter is a bad faith argument since hats and hairstyles are a broken feature for those races while gendered sitting animations aren't. Fixing something that's incomplete should take priority over something that already functions, but people want changed.

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Originally Posted by crystallineAbyss

Since you're arguing we should just play male characters if we want this so bad, maybe you should stop playing Viera if you want hair and hats so bad.
Do you see how ridiculous of an argument this is, especially with the fact they've been adding universal neutral animations that were previously race and gender specific into cutscenes? That there are plenty of emotes identical across everybody?
It's just a couple of animations. Be serious.

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1. Quote me where I said that.

2. It's hilarious that you're comparing people wanting to have parity with other races to you wanting extra stuff

3. This is poor indie company, be serious.

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Originally Posted by Joven

Using not playing viera to wear hats as a counter is a bad faith argument since hats and hairstyles are a broken feature for those races while gendered sitting animations aren't. Fixing something that's incomplete should take priority over something that already functions, but people want changed.

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The fact you acknowledge the hat thing means you understand it's bad faith because the original argument was also bad faith. And as I said, they're doing updates to unlock gendered clothing so this is something that's already on their workflow agenda. Animation fixes are not that big of a deal.

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Originally Posted by HollowedDoll

1. Quote me where I said that.

2. It's hilarious that you're comparing people wanting to have parity with other races to you wanting extra stuff

3. This is poor indie company, be serious.

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Square Enix? A poor indie company? Now you're just running out of ways to troll this thread.
Again: they're doing this with gear. They have the tools available to them.

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Originally Posted by crystallineAbyss

Since you're arguing we should just play male characters if we want this so bad, maybe you should stop playing Viera if you want hair and hats so bad.
Do you see how ridiculous of an argument this is, especially with the fact they've been adding universal neutral animations that were previously race and gender specific into cutscenes? That there are plenty of emotes identical across everybody?
It's just a couple of animations. Be serious.

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Viera and hroths being released in an unfinished state and missing core parts of customization that every other race has is not even close to the same thing as a situation where there are an equal number of different poses.

Regardless, they should be adding to the races and genders that have fewer options, female miqo can take a seat and wait till everyone else gets the level of customization they get before they start making demands about getting more options.

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Originally Posted by crystallineAbyss

The fact you acknowledge the hat thing means you understand it's bad faith because the original argument was also bad faith. And as I said, they're doing updates to unlock gendered clothing so this is something that's already on their workflow agenda. Animation fixes are not that big of a deal.

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Seeing as they're unlocking clothing it's much easier for you to make an effiminate male character with the desired poses then it is for people playing viera to get hats or hairstyles.

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Originally Posted by HollowedDoll

It's hilarious that you're comparing people wanting to have parity with other races to you wanting extra stuff

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Originally Posted by crystallineAbyss

Square Enix? A poor indie company?

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Funny how it's always the perpetually upset and needy that have a hard time picking up sarcasm. Like they pretend to "DESTROY YOU WITH FACTS AND LOGIC", but need /s at the end of the post, a winkey face emoji, or just straight up "I'm joking btw" in order to pick up the obvious... and if they couldn't, it's your fault.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

Regardless, they should be adding to the races and genders that have fewer options, female miqo can take a seat and wait till everyone else gets the level of customization they get before they start making demands about getting more options.

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You're forgetting that the developers don't all have the same skills and job. Refusing to add Miqote poses doesn't mean Viera and Hrothgar will get improvements faster. If anything, it probably means that poses get delayed for everyone. It's not clear that the people making emotes are the ones that model hats or that those two processes have anything to do with each other.

In light of that, what character a person plays (which can be more than one) doesn't have any bearing on whether they should be listened to or not.

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Originally Posted by PyurBlue

This is starting to get tangled in semantics. I originally replied to you because you said that the side wanting more options/unlocks was against uniqueness. I explained why that was wrong. We can disagree on what contributes to feelings of uniqueness, but I don't think there is any avoid that many asking for expanded options are doing it to break away from the conformity created by locked emotes.

When it comes to race uniqueness though, are poses really the biggest contributor on the list? What about looks? If poses were universal, a highlander is still going to stick out from an aura exactly as much..

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I'm not arguing semantics. Much of what I said is factual. Nowhere did I claim poses are the biggest factor but they are a big one that's quite noticeable. You're missing the point. Obviously highlanders and au'ras will always look different, the point is said races should have more things unique them than simply how they look physically. They should retain exclusive access to their own gear, poses and emotes.

Oh and btw I said the side asking to make things neutral are trying to forgo the uniqueness already present to make things unique only in the way they personally want

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

I'm not arguing semantics. Much of what I said is factual. Nowhere did I claim poses are the biggest factor but they are a big one that's quite noticeable. You're missing the point. Obviously highlanders and au'ras will always look different, the point is said races should have more things unique them than simply how they look physically. They should retain exclusive access to their own gear, poses and emotes.

Oh and btw I said the side asking to make things neutral are trying to forgo the uniqueness already present to make things unique only in the way they personally want

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It's literally just gender based animations where gender neutral animations exist and have always existed. It is not making everything neutral, it's just a small selection of things that don't touch racial uniqueness. You're missing the entire point and are conflating the homogenization of racial uniqueness with making things more fair by gender regardless of what gender you play as.

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Originally Posted by crystallineAbyss

It's literally just gender based animations where gender neutral animations exist and have always existed. It is not making everything neutral, it's just a small selection of things that don't touch racial uniqueness. You're missing the entire point and are conflating the homogenization of racial uniqueness with making things more fair by gender regardless of what gender you play as.

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My point wasnt towards the OP first n foremost. I'm not conflating anything. Not once did I claim OP wants everything to be neutral. But there's others that do and that's what I'm addressing due to earlier posts.

The only thing that isn't fair when it comes to gender that i can think of off hand is outfit distribution on the mogststion as females for sure get more there. And that's not even the topic of discussion. As things are with emotes and poses the situation is fair. Both gender have sits that that other doesn't have in equal amount. What isn't fair there?

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

My point wasnt towards the OP first n foremost. I'm not conflating anything. Not once did I claim OP wants everything to be neutral. But there's others that do and that's what I'm addressing due to earlier posts.

The only thing that isn't fair when it comes to gender that i can think of off hand is outfit distribution on the mogststion as females for sure get more there. And that's not even the topic of discussion. As things are with emotes and poses the situation is fair. Both gender have sits that that other doesn't have in equal amount. What isn't fair there?

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The entire reason for me making this thread was to talk specifically about gendered sits. This is not the place to talk about unlocking racial animations, as that is not the point. People have derailed taking gender neutrality into racial neutrality and implying it's the same thing and arguing it when again: it's just the new sits they implemented with 6.3.

And here's the thing: they've been making the female glams available for men with recent updates including this last one. And vice versa. Women can now run around in the Valentione's suit, and men can wear stuff like the songbird costume and the Dirndl dress. The entire precedent for asking for this kind of thing is due to the fact they have been granting access to gear regardless of gender. I wish they wouldn't do stuff like the Neo Ishgardian set and give us a choice of which to wear, but that's not what this is about.

It's about letting people have access to any of the sitting poses released in 6.3 Nothing to do with racial animations. Just the stuff they released nearly two weeks ago.
That's it.

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Originally Posted by crystallineAbyss

The entire reason for me making this thread was to talk specifically about gendered sits. This is not the place to talk about unlocking racial animations, as that is not the point. People have derailed taking gender neutrality into racial neutrality and implying it's the same thing and arguing it when again: it's just the new sits they implemented with 6.3.

And here's the thing: they've been making the female glams available for men with recent updates including this last one. And vice versa. Women can now run around in the Valentione's suit, and men can wear stuff like the songbird costume and the Dirndl dress. The entire precedent for asking for this kind of thing is due to the fact they have been granting access to gear regardless of gender. I wish they wouldn't do stuff like the Neo Ishgardian set and give us a choice of which to wear, but that's not what this is about.

It's about letting people have access to any of the sitting poses released in 6.3 Nothing to do with racial animations. Just the stuff they released nearly two weeks ago.
That's it.

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Yet the new sits are separated by gender. The whole crux is uniqueness. Again I don't feel they need to make each one available to both genders. Them being how they are makes them unique.

You can't say it's not about other things then use other things as a reason to even ask for this in the first place. That very much means it's all linked so it's not off to bring up said other stuff. I'll say it again, there is literally nothing unfair about these new sit poses and how they've implemented them. By all means continue to ask for these things to be neutral, just understand that some don't want or need this. That's all

I pay my sub to avoid the woke content after work. SE is doing it right by not pandering the mob. The moment I see woke stuff in FF14 is the moment I boycott.

I'm guessing you missed the entire zone of nonbinary Fae folk who go by they/them, the Steppe Xaela Au Ra lore about gender, the new female NPC who uses male emotes and weapon poses and, well, the list of a hundred glamours that are no longer gender exclusive including dresses, high heels and bathing suits. I think you're a bit late on cancelling your sub, lmao.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Yet the new sits are separated by gender. The whole crux is uniqueness. Again I don't feel they need to make each one available to both genders. Them being how they are makes them unique.

You can't say it's not about other things then use other things as a reason to even ask for this in the first place. That very much means it's all linked so it's not off to bring up said other stuff. I'll say it again, there is literally nothing unfair about these new sit poses and how they've implemented them. By all means continue to ask for these things to be neutral, just understand that some don't want or need this. That's all

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It's not uniqueness when they're arbitrarily locking stuff based on gender. This issue is more like the unlocking of gendered clothing than it is stripping races of their unique animations. They arbitrarily separated the animations. They can fix that if they want because there are a Lot of people who want this fix.

And there is no one holding you at gunpoint to use this. It's literally about people who would want this, and there's nothing unique about gender restrictions and it's a bad precedent to set when they're being more inclusive in other fields.

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Originally Posted by Caro178

I'm guessing you missed the entire zone of nonbinary Fae folk who go by they/them, the Steppe Xaela Au Ra lore about gender, the new female NPC who uses male emotes and weapon poses and, well, the list of a hundred glamours that are no longer gender exclusive including dresses, high heels and bathing suits. I think you're a bit late on cancelling your sub, lmao.

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Or the gay miqo and highlander from the Wanderer's Palace Hard unlock, or the Rising npc from the year before who talked about her wife. Or the fact there are many black and brown elves in this game.
Why are they playing this when women can run around in pants, men in dresses, and same gendered players can marry each other.
god forbid someone wants more inclusive animation.

God I wish. I want to do the folded arm angry-boy male au ra sit so badly.
When they said that the sitting options were expanded, for some reason I just thought we were getting ungendered poses to begin with.

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Originally Posted by crystallineAbyss

Or the gay miqo and highlander from the Wanderer's Palace Hard unlock, or the Rising npc from the year before who talked about her wife. Or the fact there are many black and brown elves in this game.
Why are they playing this when women can run around in pants, men in dresses, and same gendered players can marry each other.
god forbid someone wants more inclusive animation.

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It's just the natural state of this forum. "I don't see a use for this for me personally, so nobody should be allowed to have it" is the thought process for 3/4ths of the people here when it comes to harmless quality of life suggestions.

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Originally Posted by crystallineAbyss

It's not uniqueness when they're arbitrarily locking stuff based on gender. This issue is more like the unlocking of gendered clothing than it is stripping races of their unique animations. They arbitrarily separated the animations. They can fix that if they want because there are a Lot of people who want this fix.

And there is no one holding you at gunpoint to use this. It's literally about people who would want this, and there's nothing unique about gender restrictions and it's a bad precedent to set when they're being more inclusive in other fields.

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Why isn't it uniqueness to have stuff locked to a gender? And it's not a "fix" because it's not broken. It's working how they intended it to.

On a side note: it's not like guys sit that way because they think it's "cool". We kind of have to sit like that.

Sure all the regular guys would like their male character to suddenly sit like a modest woman with a dress. Pretty selfish idea. Same goes for the ladies as well. My sister for sure would love to see her character spreading her legs

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Originally Posted by Jin-

Sure all the regular guys would like their male character to suddenly sit like a modest woman with a dress. Pretty selfish idea. Same goes for the ladies as well. My sister for sure would love to see her character spreading her legs

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I genuinely don't understand the complaint here. If you just type /cpose then you're not sitting that way anymore. OP isn't asking for people to be stuck with only those emotes; he's asking for those sitting emotes in addition to the ones we already have.

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Originally Posted by Avoidy

I genuinely don't understand the complaint here. If you just type /cpose then you're not sitting that way anymore. OP isn't asking for people to be stuck with only those emotes; he's asking for those sitting emotes in addition to the ones we already have.

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^^^

And just adding on, I'm saying this as a woman who sits like this irl. Because idk, women sit like this too? Because it's comfortable?
And as if male elezen don't already have a tight sit that would go against this necessity for spreading. Estinien literally sits cross legged and tight.
There's no reason to keep sit poses gendered. It's arbitrary.

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Originally Posted by crystallineAbyss

It's not uniqueness when they're arbitrarily locking stuff based on gender. This issue is more like the unlocking of gendered clothing than it is stripping races of their unique animations. They arbitrarily separated the animations. They can fix that if they want because there are a Lot of people who want this fix.

And there is no one holding you at gunpoint to use this. It's literally about people who would want this, and there's nothing unique about gender restrictions and it's a bad precedent to set when they're being more inclusive in other fields.

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Are you thinking before you type? I don't mean that as an insult either. It's a FACT that things being exclusive makes them unique. Don't matter how you or I feel about it.
It's clear where your head is when you claim the way it is now is broken and needs fixing. Nothing is broken. They made this choice for a reason and it works as intended.

Never said anyone was holding me at gunpoint for anything. Why so extreme? I simply like the idea of my Highlander have exclusive things. Again you saying there's nothing unique about gender restrictions is factually false. Also sets a bad precedent? For what? This ain't the real world and the game isn't going to cater to your whim nor mine at every turn. Not everything needs to be and is going to be inclusive. Just how it is

So what exactly is the deal here? Is it uniqueness, inconvenience, or both? Cause I am somewhat lost on what is the actual complaint or reasoning that is a bad idea.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Are you thinking before you type? I don't mean that as an insult either. It's a FACT that things being exclusive makes them unique. Don't matter how you or I feel about it.
It's clear where your head is when you claim the way it is now is broken and needs fixing. Nothing is broken. They made this choice for a reason and it works as intended.

Never said anyone was holding me at gunpoint for anything. Why so extreme? I simply like the idea of my Highlander have exclusive things. Again you saying there's nothing unique about gender restrictions is factually false. Also sets a bad precedent? For what? This ain't the real world and the game isn't going to cater to your whim nor mine at every turn. Not everything needs to be and is going to be inclusive. Just how it is

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What don't you understand of racial uniqueness is not the same as arbitrarily gendered stuff. It's not unique, it's a restriction that forces people by gender to play a specific role. Again: many articles of clothing used to be locked by gender. They acknowledged that this was wrong and are fixing it. The devs have acknowledged that restrictions by gender is not the way to move forward, so that should also apply to these genderlocked animations. Because how someone sits should not be gendered.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

So what exactly is the deal here? Is it uniqueness, inconvenience, or both? Cause I am somewhat lost on what is the actual complaint or reasoning that is a bad idea.

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It's a lot of bad faith arguing that's taking "we shouldn't gender the new sitting poses" as "gender should have unique animations that fit stereotypical gendered presentation and you're wrong for wanting to remove the uniqueness of it." As well as a tiny inconvenience.
It's making a mountain out of a molehill when it's literally just letting people express themselves however they so wish, even if they want to continue to play into the existing gendered stuff.

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Originally Posted by crystallineAbyss

What don't you understand of racial uniqueness is not the same as arbitrarily gendered stuff. It's not unique, it's a restriction that forces people by gender to play a specific role. Again: many articles of clothing used to be locked by gender. They acknowledged that this was wrong and are fixing it. The devs have acknowledged that restrictions by gender is not the way to move forward, so that should also apply to these genderlocked animations. Because how someone sits should not be gendered.

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Wait, what "role" are you being "forced" to play? That's one of the weirdest takes I've heard on here yet.

It's not "wrong" to have gender specific clothing, animations or poses and it's not something that needs "fixing" because it's not broken.

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Originally Posted by Caro178

I'm guessing you missed the entire zone of nonbinary Fae folk who go by they/them, the Steppe Xaela Au Ra lore about gender, the new female NPC who uses male emotes and weapon poses and, well, the list of a hundred glamours that are no longer gender exclusive including dresses, high heels and bathing suits. I think you're a bit late on cancelling your sub, lmao.

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Last I checked these are all NPCs whose feelings aren't getting hurt by exclusive sitting poses. That would be the overly sensitive folk within this thread.

Those who are against blurring and obscuring the lines that define one sex from another aren't complaining about those NPCs and situations in the game. We may not support those decisions, but it is what is and we move on.

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Originally Posted by Joven

Wait, what "role" are you being "forced" to play? That's one of the weirdest takes I've heard on here yet.

It's not "wrong" to have gender specific clothing, animations or poses and it's not something that needs "fixing" because it's not broken.

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But it's totally broken because my catgirl doesn't have access to them all! I should have access to everything on my catgirl because she's the Warrior of Light and super special!

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Last I checked these are all NPCs whose feelings aren't getting hurt by exclusive sitting poses. That would be the overly sensitive folk within this thread.

Those who are against blurring and obscuring the lines that define one sex from another aren't complaining about those NPCs and situations in the game. We may not support those decisions, but it is what is and we move on.

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Mostly because all of that isn't constantly and blatantly shoved in our faces at all times.

In the case of the fae, they aren't even human so appying the human binary on them wouldn't make sense.