Stricter requirements for Mentors.

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

i mean, you made the comparison

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Vel getting bodied, take an upvote

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Did the word "volunteer" not resonate with you?

EMPLOYEES have duties, volunteers are there to contribute as they see fit, they have no duties, no obligations, no requirements. An EMPLOYEE is PAID, a volunteer is there out of goodwill, which can be retracted at any time for any reason they see fit.

DO NOT make the mistake of equating one for the other. I can right now go ingame and decertify, walk away permanently, no "two weeks notice", no "obligation to remain".



So, they need a resume now?




Put idiotic standards like this in place, and you may find out just how many are unwilling. I am way past "sitting mandatory examinations", I and others will be more than happy to refuse...all of a sudden you will find yourself with empty NN channels.

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For some an empty NN would be a nice thing.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

A mentor is not a teacher they are there to offer support and point people in the right direction. If you don't know the knowledge you show them where to find i

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

The job of a mentor is to teach, to assist, to answer questions, not to flip a sprout off and tell them to "Google it".

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Homie which is it? My man, that thing on your face is messed with you or something, cause you make no sense.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

snip.

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You’re all over the place. Guess your position changes according to who you are responding to. Maybe idk… get your thoughts collected before you trip over them again

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

Homie which is it? My man, that thing on your face is messed with you or something, cause you make no sense.

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Its because mentoring is rarely used as a word as they nearly always just overlap with teaching directly. The diffirence is minimal here, and other languages can even have diffirent words, concepts and meanings. Teaching is the most generic term used to combine any aspect in which someone makes someone else learn.

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Originally Posted by UkcsAlias

Its because mentoring is rarely used as a word as they nearly always just overlap with teaching directly. The diffirence is minimal here, and other languages can even have diffirent words, concepts and meanings. Teaching is the most generic term used to combine any aspect in which someone makes someone else learn.

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That is true, but I do not think that is he case here. They have swapped positions from early on to the thread and now.

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A mentor is not a teacher they are there to offer support and point people in the right direction. If you don't know the knowledge you show them where to find i

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Go back in the thread, I did not say this at all. I was quoting someone else and hit enter too soon.

Post #111 to be specific.

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

You’re all over the place. Guess your position changes according to who you are responding to. Maybe idk… get your thoughts collected before you trip over them again

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ValKallor's wearin' his "flip-flops" today

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Go back in the thread, I did not say this at all. I was quoting someone else and hit enter too soon.

Post #111 to be specific.

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I take it back, I forgot the way you quote things makes things messy. Depending on what or where you are volunteering even unpaid ones do not have certain responsibilities, standards, protocol they have to follow. If you do not want to meet those standards then yes they are free to leave without questions. Just because someone is a volunteer does not mean they can shirk their duties. Having stricter requirements means those that pass said requirements are better suited to meet a higher standard. volunteer positions do not mean they have to take anyone off the street. Right now it is a meme, upping the requirements will help reduce on the stimga, and also increase the quality of help,

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Harder requirements make the crown symbol more prestigious, not less. Right now it's a burger king crown for people with 3 max level jobs. If you require savage, it becomes a savage crown. You think people wouldn't want to wear a savage crown like they use the flaming wyrm mount or their dyed savage gear?

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This.

You make it hard to get, and it'll actually MATTER.

It'll go from something people who don't really mean anything, and have too much time, and are generally useless, wear to be silly...

To being a mark of the best of the best... and then those folks will be HUGE snobs about it, and there will be 0 actual useful instruction.

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

So you're defo not a crafting mentor then.

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You know, I think I WILL take a moment to teach people.

If your a crafter, and have some spare junk low level materia sitting around, of any kind, you slot them into crafting gear, because gear with materia spirit bond faster. This lets you extract materia from it, useful crafting ones, at a faster rate.

Combine this with a spiritbond potion and maybe a scroll or other buff, and you'll be rolling in the materia.

And then when you DO need the extra stat points to make the next harder craft work with your macro of choice, you take them out (You did use old ones with a 100% removal rate) and overmeld in the ones you need.

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Having stricter requirements means those that pass said requirements are better suited to meet a higher standard. volunteer positions do not mean they have to take anyone off the street.

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Bobby: Ill be honest.

I have met nurses who had the personality and skill of a teaspoon ( we used to have an old axiom that the nurses who went straight in administration after graduation did so because they couldnt hack it at the bedside) , I have met people with multiple degrees who had the commonsense and communication ability of a runaway Mack truck.

My point is that it doesnt MATTER if they have beaten all the savages, all the extremes, pvp, tests whatever..NONE of that means they will be able to , in any way shape or form,. teach, tutor, assist. Being a craft mentor doesnt mean you dont know combat jobs either. The key element here isnt whether they have met all these pre requisites because they will STILL suck at people skills.

Actually its hysterically funny in one sense because what you are espousing is the old US trope that having gone to college means you are smarter...it dont, trust me. Having a degree doesnt mean you know a damned thing, all it means is they have a piece of paper. Its what they can..or CANT..do after that being the acid test.

Doesnt matter how many tests etc, they do how many savages or extremes, if their response to a sprouts enquiry is "Google it"? They are next to useless.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

100 CC victories......LMFAO

See you in six months...

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Er…. I’m not normally one to suggest a skill issue but I needed 3 more levels for my 25 series mount yesterday. Queue a couple dozen CC with an overall win rate about 75%

I’m not even that good at PVP, but if your win rate is significantly below 50% in a two party pvp match then you may need to look at the common factor (you)

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

Idk. I’m with bobby66 on this one.

Google often has better advice and sometimes in depth videos. If a person needs assistance, I think they should have some personal accountability, do some research themself and then, if need clarifying, go to someone.

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K so why have mentors at all then? Not saying that googleing isnt a good idea especially if your not sure but if someone is a mentor arent they supposed to help "mentoring" new or returning players? Taking them under their wing? If telling people to google it is the expectation then why bother having any requirements to be one. Hell i have never been a mentor and would like to think i have been more helpful then that.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Bobby: Ill be honest.

I have met nurses who had the personality and skill of a teaspoon ( we used to have an old axiom that the nurses who went straight in administration after graduation did so because they couldnt hack it at the bedside) , I have met people with multiple degrees who had the commonsense and communication ability of a runaway Mack truck.

My point is that it doesnt MATTER if they have beaten all the savages, all the extremes, pvp, tests whatever..NONE of that means they will be able to , in any way shape or form,. teach, tutor, assist. Being a craft mentor doesnt mean you dont know combat jobs either. The key element here isnt whether they have met all these pre requisites because they will STILL suck at people skills.

Actually its hysterically funny in one sense because what you are espousing is the old US trope that having gone to college means you are smarter...it dont, trust me. Having a degree doesnt mean you know a damned thing, all it means is they have a piece of paper. Its what they can..or CANT..do after that being the acid test.

Doesnt matter how many tests etc, they do how many savages or extremes, if their response to a sprouts enquiry is "Google it"? They are next to useless.

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Totally agree on this. Being a mentor is not only having an understanding for the game but more important should be communicating with the players they are supposed to be mentoring

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Originally Posted by xenahawk

K so why have mentors at all then? Not saying that googleing isnt a good idea especially if your not sure but if someone is a mentor arent they supposed to help "mentoring" new or returning players? Taking them under their wing? If telling people to google it is the expectation then why bother having any requirements to be one. Hell i have never been a mentor and would like to think i have been more helpful then that.

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While Google may have the best answers, mentors can still supply quick, easy answers or offer guidance. There’s a difference between “why am I getting pushed off in alphascape 4” and “how do I beat alphascape 4”. 1 is more in depth and google would serve better. Or “how do people know when hunt trains start”, for a mentor to direct them to a link shell or a discord server. There’s plenty more examples I’m sure you’d be able to come up with.

Anything that is in depth, and requires a lengthy lecture, a mentors time should also be considered. These are volunteers, not encyclopedias to be called on demand.

People should do some of their own research first, take the first step forward, and then reach out for clarification

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Originally Posted by xenahawk

K so why have mentors at all then? Not saying that googleing isnt a good idea especially if your not sure but if someone is a mentor arent they supposed to help "mentoring" new or returning players? Taking them under their wing? If telling people to google it is the expectation then why bother having any requirements to be one. Hell i have never been a mentor and would like to think i have been more helpful then that.

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I used to aspire to be a mentor. Then I realized how much I hate the crap that happens in NN and that I didn't need a crown to be helpful to new players. I spend a fair amount of time helping new people on an almost daily basis.

Google it really isn't a good answer in many situations with this game. So much of what is out there is aimed at max level and the players who have question more often than not are not even close to max.

Patience and communication skills are far more important than doing savage or ultimate.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Bobby: Ill be honest.

I have met nurses who had the personality and skill of a teaspoon ( we used to have an old axiom that the nurses who went straight in administration after graduation did so because they couldnt hack it at the bedside) , I have met people with multiple degrees who had the commonsense and communication ability of a runaway Mack truck.

My point is that it doesnt MATTER if they have beaten all the savages, all the extremes, pvp, tests whatever..NONE of that means they will be able to , in any way shape or form,. teach, tutor, assist. Being a craft mentor doesnt mean you dont know combat jobs either. The key element here isnt whether they have met all these pre requisites because they will STILL suck at people skills.

Actually its hysterically funny in one sense because what you are espousing is the old US trope that having gone to college means you are smarter...it dont, trust me. Having a degree doesnt mean you know a damned thing, all it means is they have a piece of paper. Its what they can..or CANT..do after that being the acid test.

Doesnt matter how many tests etc, they do how many savages or extremes, if their response to a sprouts enquiry is "Google it"? They are next to useless.

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First of all, having a college degree does not inherently make you smarter, having one is far better then not having one in most cases especially if you get a degree in say STEM. You are also missing the point of the degree / requirements it is meant to limit how many people apply for said position so it easier to vet a person. Degree itself is largely useless in the grand scheme it simply serves as a means to get past the bouncer at the door.

You did hit the nail on the head though which is my point, either up the requirements or simply remove the program altogether. As it stands NN is just a global chat channel where sometimes some mentors get their rocks off acting as the police because they can remove certain people for 30 min. Google does a well enough job to mentor and guide players let us just leave it at that. A global chat without a burger king crown would largely function the same way as NN / mentor program does now. You will have players that wish to help, and player that wish to shit post and meme all day. In truth why do we need rewards in the first place. Though if you want it to mean something then upping the requirements will go a long way to establish some creditably to the point of the program. That said it is not like one needs a crown or rewards to be helpful to others.

Yeah, well said. I'd say removing the program altogether is for the best.

Elitists are not mentor material which is exactly what these proposed requirements entail.

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Originally Posted by ICountFrom0

You know, I think I WILL take a moment to teach people.

If your a crafter, and have some spare junk low level materia sitting around, of any kind, you slot them into crafting gear, because gear with materia spirit bond faster. This lets you extract materia from it, useful crafting ones, at a faster rate.

Combine this with a spiritbond potion and maybe a scroll or other buff, and you'll be rolling in the materia.

And then when you DO need the extra stat points to make the next harder craft work with your macro of choice, you take them out (You did use old ones with a 100% removal rate) and overmeld in the ones you need.

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That was my point they was saying crafters shouldnt be putting battle materia in slots. Whereas I would be giving advice as a crafting mentor to do it for spirtbond.

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Originally Posted by hagare

no sprout is in savage.
Because you lose sprout status long before you can do current savage.
As for older savage, your opener doesn't work there due to level sync.
Hence your knowledge of lvl 90 opener is useless

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Wrong. I've seen plenty sprouts in savage. Try again.

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Once I pivot around to completing all of my Zodiac weapons, I'll have done, I think, pretty much everything ARR has to offer (aside from PVP). Why should I be disqualified from helping out new players which all start out in ARR?

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Cause sprout are considered sprout until the end of SHB. Tbh I kinda agree with OP that we need stricter requirement (Although the one op give are kinda ridiculous). I've seen a couple of mentor die repetitively on normal dungeon mechanic that weren't party wipe. From my experience on the NN whenever you ask something you often get false info or get tell to go check online. Hell, I've seen a mentor tell people to use Eureka to level their class from 60 to 70.

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Originally Posted by Magikazam

I've seen a couple of mentor die repetitively on normal dungeon mechanic that weren't party wipe.

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To be fair, even the best of mentors are never going to be perfect, and anyone who claims to be is a liar. :p We are all human, therefore imperfect. They could have been distracted or just having a bad day or run. Those things happen to everyone. It's also possible, and perhaps likely, that they aren't as skilled as other people (maybe they should be, but being a Mentor is about help and being polite about it, not always skill). Regardless, yeah, some people should not be mentors for many reasons, but not every mentor is going to be skilled in every capacity, and certainly not all the time. Their strengths might lie in knowledge, for example, instead of various pieces of content. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that people shouldn't always judge a mentor just because they had a bad dungeon/raid clear. Now if they were a jerk about it, sure, judge them all you like. lol That is something a mentor is not supposed to be.

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Originally Posted by DeNada

There should be a written test when mentors apply for the certification where they are tested on job and dungeons/trials/raid mechanics.

Example: 1) What is the general opener for a 'insert job here' and what are the more niche openers and describe what kind of situations would you prefer the niche compared to general opener. 2) Describe the mechanics which you encounter in 'insert dungeon/trial/raid' here and explain how you would resolve such mechanics.

In addition to the written test, all would be mentors have to clear all current savage raids and extreme trials to prove that they are decent at the game (I'll exclude ultimates as that might narrow down the potential applicants too much)

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No. None of those things would make for better mentors. You don't need to be great at playing the game to be a good mentor. You need some overall knowledge of the game, and a willingness to help. The second part being by far the most important.

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Originally Posted by Mika_Zahard

Wrong. I've seen plenty sprouts in savage. Try again.

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I stand corrected. Skippers or someone very very fast can be in savage and still a sprout.
Since the only requirement to lose it is to have played 300 hours and be in endwalker.
They're the exceptions that prove the rule.
But I doubt the plenty part. Though if that's true, I'm sure getting a pic would be easy.

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Originally Posted by hagare

I stand corrected. Skippers or someone very very fast can be in savage and still a sprout.
Since the only requirement to lose it is to have played 300 hours and be in endwalker.
They're the exceptions that prove the rule.
But I doubt the plenty part. Though if that's true, I'm sure getting a pic would be easy.

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Ill show you a pic around sunday when im done with reclears and PFing. You dont mind me blurring the names, just keeping the sprout symbol right?

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Originally Posted by Mika_Zahard

Ill show you a pic around sunday when im done with reclears and PFing. You dont mind me blurring the names, just keeping the sprout symbol right?

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sure.
Guessing most of those people would be alts.
It's hilarious how you'd be a sprout in EW.
They really should make the requirement to lose sprout be reach EW and just remove the 300 hours.

I recall asking a raiding related question in mentor chat.

Got radio silence and then they blatantly skipped over it so they could continue talking about glam.

:V

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Originally Posted by xxmiamorecadenza

I recall asking a raiding related question in mentor chat.

Got radio silence and then they blatantly skipped over it so they could continue talking about glam.

:V

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Friends don’t let other friends tackle the evil forces whilst looking ugg.

Sprouts in savage/ex PFs can also be alts or boosted character.

Couple of FCmates and friends raid with multiple chara to not mess with their static’s loot. Their alts do not spend as much time being online as their main characters. It makes it easier for them to keep their sprouts status even longer—doubly so if they skip all their alts’ cutscenes.

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Originally Posted by hagare

sure.
Guessing most of those people would be alts.
It's hilarious how you'd be a sprout in EW.
They really should make the requirement to lose sprout be reach EW and just remove the 300 hours.

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Yep, specially alts from people in other regions like EU and JPs. I know a JP one that boosted to have "fun" with NA progs.

Again, the thread is asking for stricter requirements.

Even if you don't agree with me on the written tests and such, surely you too must recognize that the current requirements have zero inkling on whether anyone who meets such requirement is a good mentor and the requirements need to be relooked at and tightened up further.

Trade mentor requirements are a complete joke where one can become one before even finishing ARR, battle mentor can simply be gotten passively by playing for a long enough time which doesn't mean you have the necessary knowledge and skills to be a mentor to sprouts.

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

That was my point they was saying crafters shouldnt be putting battle materia in slots. Whereas I would be giving advice as a crafting mentor to do it for spirtbond.

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Yha, but I was bored and thought I'd do a kindness by actually explaining it.

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Originally Posted by DeNada

Again, the thread is asking for stricter requirements.

Even if you don't agree with me on the written tests and such, surely you too must recognize that the current requirements have zero inkling on whether anyone who meets such requirement is a good mentor and the requirements need to be relooked at and tightened up further.

Trade mentor requirements are a complete joke where one can become one before even finishing ARR, battle mentor can simply be gotten passively by playing for a long enough time which doesn't mean you have the necessary knowledge and skills to be a mentor to sprouts.

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I think you are completely missing the point in regard to what being a Mentor is about, and what is required of them. This is another issue with the system. People (non mentors, usually) have set impossible expectations that most mentors will never manage to live up to, even the good ones, further compounding the stigma that already exists. That one isn't the fault of Mentors. It is the fault of those that they are supposed to be helping. All of that said, Trade mentor is indeed a joke. The entire system is in need of fixing though, and I will never deny that, but ridiculous restrictions and written tests (seriously? lol) are not the way.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

somebody who does not participate in Endgame Activities is arguably, not suitable to be 'Mentoring' new players, and is most likely going to give out false information.
help newer players grow into better players overall

Having much stricter requirements will easily weed out the Mentors that only have the crown as a collectable item, and clean up things like Expert Roulette for newer players, having only mentors that actually know what they are doing, playing in those activities.

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First of all I am only a lowly trade mentor by accident as I've lost my sprout before finishing the game despite having the "requirements" met for battle mentor outside of the 90 role quests.

I agree the current requirements are quite low. I look at yours and ask: who's left and does it fit the purpose?

If it's for helping new players in the NN then there's a range of questions and rarely are they rotation or mechanic related. Most questions I see are about gameplay systems & quests.
Not everyone is suited to answering every question either and your requirements don't really fix that either.
I am physically disabled with a cognitive disability. I'm good at certain things, I can tell you a configuring input methods & accessibility. I have a broad enough understanding of the game now and there are things I can & can't answer. I won't speak on a rotation @90 'cause that's not my thing.
There's lots of different questions & different content out there and mentor participation is already staggeringly low at times.
On off peak hours that drops way off and there's not enough people around to always help.

I've only recently seen NN turn to rotation talk and it's on the PLD changes. A day before this I saw a mentor say "hallowed ground" was for emergencies only. So I get where you're coming from.

I'm sure others have discussed all aspects. It appears your problem is that some mentors are bad and they should be good players first.
As far as I was aware that MR was there to both help fill queues and allow players to play duties and receive help if required. Is that not fit for purpose?

I've seen a lot of clownery in NN, some harassment, arguments, wrong things here & there, seen some outright wrong things regarding input but that's the nature of it.
I'd be down for seeing stricter punishments for mentors caught breaking rules like harassment, suspension from mentorship for a time? The agreement is to set a positive example.

I don't see a lot of our mentors in it for the crown that I interact with and I'm not interested in that. The concept of mentor roulette sounds enticing to help fill any duty but I don't care about some cosmetic reward down the line.

I still wonder about your requirements though:fit for purpose? Perhaps for mentor roulette. For NN & general help? I just don't see it.
Seems you're mad at mentors atm and I think we've all been there after seeing something incredibly dumb.

I think you should have to clear ultimate for combat mentor

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Originally Posted by Mika_Zahard

Yep, specially alts from people in other regions like EU and JPs. I know a JP one that boosted to have "fun" with NA progs.

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why is that fun sus xD

I do EX trials, savage, and Ultimates and I'm a mentor. But I don't think someone needs end game knowledge to be one. The bulk of sprout questions are just "how do I unlock this level 30 dungeon", "when do I get my chocobo", "what job is good". You don't really need to have a bunch of end game experience for that. I've been playing since Heavensward and I can't think of a single time a sprout ever asked me something that'd require savage level knowledge.

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Originally Posted by hagare

sure.
Guessing most of those people would be alts.
It's hilarious how you'd be a sprout in EW.
They really should make the requirement to lose sprout be reach EW and just remove the 300 hours.

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No they shouldn't, it wouldn't account for boosters.

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

No they shouldn't, it wouldn't account for boosters.

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yeah it would.
The only thing letting boosters keep their sprout in EW is the 300 hours requirement.
Take that away and poof, no booster sprouts