Unpopular opinion on G'raha Tia (spoilers)

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

The only scions actively hyped about by people in my daily life are Ysh because cat girl waifu, G'raha because same reasons and Urianger because memes about how he talks. I don't really hear anyone lavishing them with praise because of how they were written or the impact they have on the story. It's usually just simping or memes.

Taking a look at Zenos, Fandaniel, Emet, Meteion, Hermes...the villains of the story, I see a lot more in reference to the opposite...how they were written & what impacts they had on the stories they were involved in. I mean, some people obviously simp for Emet but, you get my point.

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Some of this is admittedly my own impressions of them, mixed in with what I've seen online, but they roughly line up with what I've seen others saying.

Urianger is the one here I see the most opposite for. I see a lot of people talking about his struggle with being the "duplicitous one", his dad arc in ShB with Ryne and Thancred, his dealing (or not) with the death of Moenbryda.
I think I mentioned earlier about G'raha fighting for countless years to help save multiple worlds, and finally succeeding and being able to reap his reward, travel the world, with friends and comrades by his side.
Y'shtola honestly is the one that catches the most flack, even casually, for being the least "developed" of the scions, but even her we've had a lot of insight into her childhood with Matoya that shows she was a somewhat lonely if gifted child who never really learned how to properly interact socially with others, resulting in her developing this sort of mask of aloofness. It's why I always pick the dialogue options to be playfully snarky with her, try and poke her out of that shell from time to time.

I think if you don't think people simp/meme for the villains in the same ways and volumes that people do for the scions, you're clearly in better twitter circles than I and I envy you greatly ;D

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Originally Posted by Iyrnthota

Some of this is admittedly my own impressions of them, mixed in with what I've seen online, but they roughly line up with what I've seen others saying.

Urianger is the one here I see the most opposite for. I see a lot of people talking about his struggle with being the "duplicitous one", his dad arc in ShB with Ryne and Thancred, his dealing (or not) with the death of Moenbryda.
I think I mentioned earlier about G'raha fighting for countless years to help save multiple worlds, and finally succeeding and being able to reap his reward, travel the world, with friends and comrades by his side.
Y'shtola honestly is the one that catches the most flack, even casually, for being the least "developed" of the scions, but even her we've had a lot of insight into her childhood with Matoya that shows she was a somewhat lonely if gifted child who never really learned how to properly interact socially with others, resulting in her developing this sort of mask of aloofness. It's why I always pick the dialogue options to be playfully snarky with her, try and poke her out of that shell from time to time.

I think if you don't think people simp/meme for the villains in the same ways and volumes that people do for the scions, you're clearly in better twitter circles than I and I envy you greatly ;D

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Ew twitter.

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

This game has very little without it's story.

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https://i.imgur.com/GaPrkIx.gif

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Originally Posted by Petite

I have no clue if this topic has been discussed before. My apologies in advance if it has.

I personally think G'raha's story should have ended atop the Crystal Tower without him returning to the Source.

It would have "cemented" him as a much more awe-inspiring character for his sacrifice (to me) and would have added even more emotional weight to 5.3's ending. Instead, we know in advance that he'll come back and we even get to meet him in the Source just 30 minutes after the fact.

I don't hate him. I think he's a fine addition to the Scions. But whenever I think of him now, I think of fanservice.

On a side note, I don't excuse Y'shtola's many fakeouts either. But plot-armor is a discussion for another thread.

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Personally, I'm happy with G'raha. I'll admit, it feels like he lost a lot of that "wisdom and experience" he had in Shadowbringers, though.

I think having him die would've been a perfectly satisfying conclusion to his story, but I'm honestly happier we got him as a full-time ally. To me, he fills the void left by Minfillia, who was the only Scion who actually seemed FRIENDLY. Y'shtola has kind of been wearing me down a bit lately, I feel like she needs more "personality". Like maybe a quirky sense of humor, where she is kind of a "dork" in her own way.

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Originally Posted by Petite

https://i.imgur.com/GaPrkIx.gif

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He's not wrong. Given the ever-increasing length between patches and a lack of long-lived battle content the story remained a main draw for people until recently when both 6.0 and 6.1 undermined the confidence some of us had in the writing direction. While 6.2 did not worsen things, it still has a long way to go before I ever trust them again like I did back in Heavensward and Shadowbringers.

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Originally Posted by Terin

Personally, I'm happy with G'raha. I'll admit, it feels like he lost a lot of that "wisdom and experience" he had in Shadowbringers, though.

I think having him die would've been a perfectly satisfying conclusion to his story, but I'm honestly happier we got him as a full-time ally. To me, he fills the void left by Minfillia, who was the only Scion who actually seemed FRIENDLY. Y'shtola has kind of been wearing me down a bit lately, I feel like she needs more "personality". Like maybe a quirky sense of humor, where she is kind of a "dork" in her own way.

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Minfillia was little more than a lady who sat around, got kidnapped, and sent me on errands. That's not exactly what I call "friendly."

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Originally Posted by TheSuperior

G'raha going sparkly eyed at meeting one of our friends

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I didn't get the impression he goes sparkly-eyed at meeting our friends, but at meeting famous historical figures – heroes whose valiant acts in the time of the Eighth Calamity are still told around the campfire two hundred years later. He would have soaked up those tales then, and now he's living among them.

Rather than everything revolving around us, it shows that he gets excited about other people too.

(Excited about things, as well – at one point in Ultima Thule you can possibly mention that you still have the Omega Jammer device and he geeks out about the mere prospect of seeing it in action. And he seems to understand mechanically how it works, too.)

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

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(I'll just be replying to what you said to me.) All your examples for why EW wasn't well-paced just don't make any sense to me. This was all just more lore and character development that was/is necessary for characters you spend so much time with. This expansion was very long and the examples you provided as not being balanced are so miniscule in the grand scheme of things, I'm honestly confused why it's such a problem? It's only a few scenes out of an at least 30 hour campaign. You clearly just don't like any of the Scions at all, which is probably the reason you didn't enjoy any of those scenes. I thought they were written very well and thoroughly enjoyed them.

About the characters agreeing with each other all the time, well they're friends and have been through a lot together and can be on the same page quite easily as a result. They understand each other (even our character in-universe understands their quirks) and have better teamwork to show for it. They're not "homogenized," but harmonious, and that's what I love about the Scions' relationship to one another. Look at other game series where characters have been together for many installments. (Kingdom Hearts comes to mind) They no longer have anything discordant within the group, since they've been together for so long. Instead, they have respect for each other. This is just a naturally occurring thing. Maybe a few disagreements would be nice here or there, but when we're talking the end of existence here, everyone's gotta be on the same page so they can get stuff done.

Also, I couldn't find anything online about the "fanservice" scenes costing extra resources? The rest of EW never suffered as a result of those scenes (heavier-toned cutscenes' animation, gameplay, level progression, etc.), so I have to ask where you got that information?

People really tend to rag on that G'raha burger cutscene, huh? It happens once and is never referred to again. I don't understand how this one scene somehow interfered with the overall plot. (Not to mention, it happens very early on in this over 30 hour story, to my recollection, so I care about this point even less.) Besides, G'raha was very helpful in EW. A few things that come to mind was his assistance in the Ilsabard Contingent (Particularly on the way to Camp Broken Glass for the first time), him saving Alisaie a la CGI Derplander style, and of course his sacrifice on Ultima Thule and his encouraging words right before. He also canonically fights in places like Zot (Even saved everyone from falling to their DEATHS), Babylon, Vanaspati, the Dead Ends, the Mothercrystal, and more recently in Alzadaal. This idea that he somehow doesn't do anything is simply not true.

Now, I really have no idea where you're getting the idea the EW MSQ is like Hildibrand quests. So, a deep story can't have slice-of-life or comedic elements without being compared to the more mature FF version equivalent of a 90's comedy cartoon? You lost me. I guess we can't laugh between stressful situations anymore. Cuz that's normal?

I vaguely remember the Sylph questline (For context, FFXIV is my first official MMO so I wasn't sure how these genre of games normally work) but I remember actually laughing at some of it. I was honestly pretty heartbroken to hear it was being removed. I understand it was trimmed for length, but in terms of player satisfaction, I liked it, so I guess that means I didn't find it distracting from the action, even as a new player to the genre. So, why would I mind if they did it again?

And about the Hildy relic weapons (Although, it seems more related to Godbert than Hildy, but I could be wrong), I also find it questionable to combine them, but for different reasons. I see the Hildibrand quests as a funny distraction for people who want to take a break and laugh without needing to really worry about gameplay. But combining it with a system that I find tedious and rarely follow to completion is quite odd. (The combo of a fun distraction with a system that takes long lengths of time and/or focus to complete, just clash.) I dislike the idea altogether, but we'll have to wait and see how it's truly going to be like. Also, if the questline being linked to the weapons bothers you, why can't you just....skip the cutscenes and just focus on the weapons? You don't seem to like the Hildibrand questlines anyway.

People in fandoms who really, REALLY, like certain characters, don't simply "move on." You carry those characters with you and even devote some creative time to them, like fanart, fanfictions, or even performing covers of characters' theme songs. (How one may feel about the content itself is irrelevant, I'm just giving examples.) I personally adore HxH and watched the 2011 anime several times. I was massively involved with the fandom, but when I left, I didn't just leave the franchise behind too. I still love the characters, music, and story to this day, even when I focus my time on other franchises and characters, like FFXIV and G'raha Tia.

For the record, I always thought it was heartwarming how some players came together to devote a shrine to Haurchefant at that fanfest. It was more than just a shrine, it was establishing a sort of camaraderie within the community. Landmarking an event we all shared in. How can anyone look at that and say it's "strange"? And why are you using that as a reason why, "these sort of people," or "fans," as I like to call them, should be somehow reigned in by the devs? The fans are just enjoying the game, they don't control what the devs are doing. (As an example, Emet-Selch's inclusion in EW wasn't based on his popularity, as mentioned here.)

I just think your way off the mark about the whole thing. I thought this expansion was very much full of thrills. It was an emotional rollercoaster and I had a blast from start to finish. It worked out so amazingly, I was sad when it came to an end! In my opinion, what the devs did worked. I of course had complaints in a few places in the plot, it wasn't perfect. But I still thought it was exceptionally well written. I even cried twice lol. There must be something the devs are doing right to have so many people subscribing to the game, and I believe this MSQ plot has a heck of a lot do with it.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

He's not wrong. Given the ever-increasing length between patches and a lack of long-lived battle content the story remained a main draw for people until recently when both 6.0 and 6.1 undermined the confidence some of us had in the writing direction. While 6.2 did not worsen things, it still has a long way to go before I ever trust them again like I did back in Heavensward and Shadowbringers.

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That's such a cynical thing to claim. There's objectively a ton of stuff to do. We can argue how deep or shallow each of them is, sure, but if the only thing you care for is the story then I feel sorry for you.

For my part, the MSQ is far from being my main draw. While not on ShB's level, I found EW' story satisfying and I'll give them some leeway with the current developing one as they're still putting its pieces into place.

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

Is there some reason why masculine type characters (excluding Thancred and even he is kinda not necessarily what I mean) are hardly ever given a spotlight in the game? Does Square just think we all want our men to look like teenagers forever or is facial hair really that hard to add to the game?

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Because FFXIV is basically a shounen anime.

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Originally Posted by OhNooo

LianaThorne: "Is there some reason why masculine type characters (excluding Thancred and even he is kinda not necessarily what I mean) are hardly ever given a spotlight in the game?"

Because FFXIV is basically a shounen anime.

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That's not the answer to their question. There's lots of burly side characters in anime, even in Final Fantasy (Barret).

The true answer to LianaThorne's question is that there's no reason.

I liked him as the Exarch. Now he's my least favorite character. I cringed so hard when I was forced to go on an adventure with him in 6.1 and he had a tailgasm. Ugh. :(

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Originally Posted by Erinellza

I liked him as the Exarch. Now he's my least favorite character. I cringed so hard when I was forced to go on an adventure with him in 6.1 and he had a tailgasm. Ugh. :(

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I thought I had repressed that.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Why doesn't it fit the game? Why shouldn't it?

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Because I'm the sort of person who enjoyed Thor: Dark World and hated Thor: Ragnarok. When you've established a game without blatant, cliché and forced comic relief that didn't feel natural and only made it look like an anime, moments like those are jarring.
When you go from comedy such as "Alphinaud yeets himself into the ocean", "Little Sun", "Urianger got lost in the sea because he too cannot swim" and you replace those with "Puppy dog catboy has a fanboy moment" and "level-headed woman devolves into an over-the-top girly girl", it isn't natural.

Y'shtola can't be boring and stoic all the time, you are 100% correct. My friends would get angry at me for pointing out how boring and stoic Y'shtola was. Since then she's come out of her shell, be more laid back, with mature humour that wasn't based on gags.

Again: it was amusing, but unnecessary.

Had this been a more natural occurrence, had she had better indications of this, it would have worked. Everyone else is often rather serious, and this would have worked just fine. But Y'shtola was on the extreme end. And going to these lengths on her without giving her a bit more natural cadence is an extreme measure.

We don't need the game to have such blatant and forced moments. If it wants cutesy stuff with sparkles and bubbly animations, we have that naturally in the MSQ. Again: other characters are also serious, yet this works better for them. Y'shtola just randomly whipping that out of her ass isn't.

G'raha is even worse. We knew this kid as energetic and hero-loving, being inspired by us and idolizing us. We see the natural progression of that after 100 years of going through actual hell and needing to guide an entire country through despair on the vague hope that one day his hero might come to him and help fix the mess. And now he's just... blushy blushy uwu fanboi. Slay, I guess?

And this is what I don't like in my stories and why I didn't like Thor: Ragnarok. I'm fine with comedy, and as I've stated before, I don't like it when characters are nothing but a serious face spouting knowledge without you having any more meaningful interaction. But when you go from that and don't capitalize on the sheer good humour that someone serious and stern can bring without devolving them into something cliché and immature*, it's JARRING. People liked these characters for a reason, and if others didn't, that should be fine. Not everyone likes Thancred or Urianger, and we have to respect that, don't we? So why must we make Y'shtola endearing to everyone else when she's already endearing to the people she's meant to be endearing to?
*I understand the whole point of the scene was to show Y'shtola's immature side when she WAS immature. Hence why I say G'raha is worse. The real issue is why we have that to begin with. Why are we so willing to accept that this anime-esque degradation is fine? And why is it that the only argument I've seen people say was "Why not?". That's not an answer.

But I know what you'll say. It's the same thing to critics of Thor: Ragnarok. "You just hate comedy". No. Just that not every comedy needs to be built on gags and be blatant. It can be subtle. It can be mature. It needs to fit the character and the story you're telling.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I didn't get the impression he goes sparkly-eyed at meeting our friends, but at meeting famous historical figures – heroes whose valiant acts in the time of the Eighth Calamity are still told around the campfire two hundred years later. He would have soaked up those tales then, and now he's living among them.

Rather than everything revolving around us, it shows that he gets excited about other people too.

(Excited about things, as well – at one point in Ultima Thule you can possibly mention that you still have the Omega Jammer device and he geeks out about the mere prospect of seeing it in action. And he seems to understand mechanically how it works, too.)

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This here is why I feel many people are choosing to dismiss things or just aren't paying attention. See things from the perspective of his character and it all makes sense n fits perfectly.

People also seem to forget where he came from, you know the dead world basically? Being able to have all these experiences now is a dream come true

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Originally Posted by Iyrnthota

Some of this is admittedly my own impressions of them, mixed in with what I've seen online, but they roughly line up with what I've seen others saying.

Urianger is the one here I see the most opposite for. I see a lot of people talking about his struggle with being the "duplicitous one", his dad arc in ShB with Ryne and Thancred, his dealing (or not) with the death of Moenbryda.
I think I mentioned earlier about G'raha fighting for countless years to help save multiple worlds, and finally succeeding and being able to reap his reward, travel the world, with friends and comrades by his side.
Y'shtola honestly is the one that catches the most flack, even casually, for being the least "developed" of the scions, but even her we've had a lot of insight into her childhood with Matoya that shows she was a somewhat lonely if gifted child who never really learned how to properly interact socially with others, resulting in her developing this sort of mask of aloofness. It's why I always pick the dialogue options to be playfully snarky with her, try and poke her out of that shell from time to time.

I think if you don't think people simp/meme for the villains in the same ways and volumes that people do for the scions, you're clearly in better twitter circles than I and I envy you greatly ;D

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I don't use Twitter....ew.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

This here is why I feel many people are choosing to dismiss things or just aren't paying attention. See things from the perspective of his character and it all makes sense n fits perfectly.

People also seem to forget where he came from, you know the dead world basically? Being able to have all these experiences now is a dream come true

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But he isn't the same G'raha as the Exarch. So you people keep saying. Thus this is irrelevant.
Or are you guys going to flip-flop just for sake of picking arguments?

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

But he isn't the same G'raha as the Exarch. So you people keep saying. Thus this is irrelevant.
Or are you guys going to flip-flop just for sake of picking arguments?

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Then let me put it this way.

If G'raha Tia == the Exarch, then his behaviour is jarring, juvenile and immature given the growth the man had in the previous 100 years of his life and his experiences as someone who had to be mature and lead several people through survival.

If G'raha Tia =/= the Exarch, then he is the ARR kid we met + some vague awareness of the Exarch, who he was and what he did. The above still applies, though in a more ambiguous way. However, as he was written all the way back in ARR, OG G'raha is an energetic young scholar who idolizes the Warrior of Light and would love nothing more than to go on an adventure with him. He'd give anything for it, though with a self-deprecating demeanor that Exarch G'raha's influence on his soul would soften up.

In either case, his reactions in Endwalker do not reflect the G'raha we're meant to be seeing. They reflect an anime trope and quite possibly the degradation of the characters' serious tones for gag-style comedy a la Hildibrand.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

Then let me put it this way.

If G'raha Tia == the Exarch, then his behaviour is jarring, juvenile and immature given the growth the man had in the previous 100 years of his life and his experiences as someone who had to be mature and lead several people through survival.

If G'raha Tia =/= the Exarch, then he is the ARR kid we met + some vague awareness of the Exarch, who he was and what he did. The above still applies, though in a more ambiguous way. However, as he was written all the way back in ARR, OG G'raha is an energetic young scholar who idolizes the Warrior of Light and would love nothing more than to go on an adventure with him. He'd give anything for it, though with a self-deprecating demeanor that Exarch G'raha's influence on his soul would soften up.

In either case, his reactions in Endwalker do not reflect the G'raha we're meant to be seeing. They reflect an anime trope and quite possibly the degradation of the characters' serious tones for gag-style comedy a la Hildibrand.

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I thought he mentions that his souls like mixed together. So he has the personality of both a wise leader and a young lad. So sometimes he is being a fan boy like with Estinien and then other times he steps up as a leader like he did in Radz at Han during the riot.

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Originally Posted by Petite

I have no clue if this topic has been discussed before. My apologies in advance if it has.

I personally think G'raha's story should have ended atop the Crystal Tower without him returning to the Source.

It would have "cemented" him as a much more awe-inspiring character for his sacrifice (to me) and would have added even more emotional weight to 5.3's ending. Instead, we know in advance that he'll come back and we even get to meet him in the Source just 30 minutes after the fact.

I don't hate him. I think he's a fine addition to the Scions. But whenever I think of him now, I think of fanservice.

On a side note, I don't excuse Y'shtola's many fakeouts either. But plot-armor is a discussion for another thread.

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https://media3.giphy.com/media/iSxPm...200w.webp&ct=g

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Originally Posted by dustdjinn

I thought he mentions that his souls like mixed together. So he has the personality of both a wise leader and a young lad. So sometimes he is being a fan boy like with Estinien and then other times he steps up as a leader like he did in Radz at Han during the riot.

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https://c.tenor.com/ZfonmIRB1iIAAAAC...ggie-smith.gif

Again, I point to what I wrote.

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If G'raha Tia =/= the Exarch, then he is the ARR kid we met + some vague awareness of the Exarch, who he was and what he did. The above still applies, though in a more ambiguous way. However, as he was written all the way back in ARR, OG G'raha is an energetic young scholar who idolizes the Warrior of Light and would love nothing more than to go on an adventure with him. He'd give anything for it, though with a self-deprecating demeanor that Exarch G'raha's influence on his soul would soften up.

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It doesn't stop him from being OG G'raha to have those impulses. To admire Estinien and fanboy over him, as he did with us (though we were on a higher pedestal than Estinien, no doubt).
And about the Radz incident, again I point out:
"he is the ARR kid we met + some vague awareness of the Exarch, who he was and what he did", along with traits being softened out of OG G'raha due to Exarch's influence.

That was never really the issue. This is expected: have his jovial self on the surface, but deep down still be able to channel his mature self.

The issue was that the game just took a leap from "energetic boy who has idols he places on a high pedestal" to "puppy dog boy who has a tailgasm, ears perk up and his eyes go heart-shape".

It's Flanderization.

Theres been a lot of talk of friendship in this thread and yknow...I've never once in my two years playing the game thot of any of the scions has friends tbh.
Not once in all the msq do any of them ever ask you where you're from (we are NOT native to limsa gridania or uldah bc playing aura viera or hrothgar in Eorzea aside, we ARRIVE in those states via carriage or boat) or ask about your family, or anything else friends tend to know about each other. Not even your damn favorite color for gods sake.
The only crap they ever ask us about is what dungeons we've been thru or what monsters we've slaughtered ("tell me about your adventures"). Do they really know you as a person?
Ofc not thats all "fill it in yourself" gpose screenshot on twitter bait. And that totally sucks because it'd be nice to get characterization we actually have agency over (would that I could swat the pen out of the writing teams hand when they decided we're Azem).

Graha and Thancred should of died in ShB. They hit their peak and the sendoff would have been perfect. Or at least give Thancred the kill on Ranjit. Thancred got Vegeta'd so hard it's not even fair.

Oh well. At least Thancred went Metal Gear with Bozjan catbois.

Graha just changed into this insufferable WoL #1 fan and would make Haurchefant roll in his grave.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Graha and Thancred should of died in ShB. They hit their peak and the sendoff would have been perfect. Or at least give Thancred the kill on Ranjit. Thancred got Vegeta'd so hard it's not even fair.

Oh well. At least Thancred went Metal Gear with Bozjan catbois.

Graha just changed into this insufferable WoL #1 fan and would make Haurchefant roll in his grave.

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Thancred shouldve died just because of how trash his shb story is. "I abuse a teenager emotionally because Im sad my daughter who was only 10 years my junior got zapped, feel bad for me" I think Ryne shoulda kicked him and Ranjit to death because they didnt value her at all.

I'm curious how much of G'raha's screen time is him fanboying like so many of you claim. Seeing as thats all some of you see him as as he apparently doesn't do anything else. I could point to plenty of instances where thats not the case but this is the OF.

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Originally Posted by XiRon

Thancred shouldve died just because of how trash his shb story is. "I abuse a teenager emotionally because Im sad my daughter who was only 10 years my junior got zapped, feel bad for me" I think Ryne shoulda kicked him and Ranjit to death because they didnt value her at all.

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Well Ryne isn't the Minfilia he loved and Venat sent her to her death. Entirely out of his control. Minfilia got robbed.

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Graha mostly turns into a fanboy in Endwalker. In Shadowbringers he was fantastic as the Exarch.

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Originally Posted by XiRon

Thancred shouldve died just because of how trash his shb story is. "I abuse a teenager emotionally because Im sad my daughter who was only 10 years my junior got zapped, feel bad for me" I think Ryne shoulda kicked him and Ranjit to death because they didnt value her at all.

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Stop exaggerating jfc. He didn't abuse her. Sure he may act cold and can be a bit too harsh sometimes, but it's hardly an abuse. If he abused her, do you think ryne will end up the way she is? And y'all love to act like he does that for the full five years he was with her when in truth him being distant was only happened after the two of them talk to minfilia. We don't know the exact time, but at best it was a year or two ago.

Also, minfilia isn't a daughter to him, but a sister.

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Originally Posted by Kozh

Stop exaggerating jfc. He didn't abuse her. Sure he may act cold and can be a bit too harsh sometimes, but it's hardly an abuse. If he abused her, do you think ryne will end up the way she is? And y'all love to act like he does that for the full five years he was with her when in truth him being distant was only happened after the two of them talk to minfilia. We don't know the exact time, but at best it was a year or two ago.

Also, minfilia isn't a daughter to him, but a sister.

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Did you forget that in Twine Ryne gets so distraught she very seriously considers giving up her life by letting Minfillia take over just to get away from how horrid Thancred treats her or nah?

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Originally Posted by XiRon

Thancred shouldve died just because of how trash his shb story is. "I abuse a teenager emotionally because Im sad my daughter who was only 10 years my junior got zapped, feel bad for me" I think Ryne shoulda kicked him and Ranjit to death because they didnt value her at all.

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Abused how? His problem was being over protective and needing to get over the fear of losing her. It wasn't nice, but it's completely understandable how he'd end up that way given he saw "Minfilias" get slain again and again in the First. Thancred was already trying to get over what he considers his failures since joining the Circle of Knowing, then he goes into the first and finds himself failing several times.
His behavior makes perfect sense. It's hard to believe people who think he was being "abusive" even have parents.

Ryne's stress was a lot less about "Thancred being a meanie" and more about the stress of being an oracle of light. Without Thancred she would be having REAL abuse by Eulmore.
And lastly, Thancred accepted her decision to stop trying to carry Minfilia's legacy right away once she made the decision. He wasn't forcing anything.

I do think Thancred was – not deliberately abusive, but still – unnecessarily harsh on Ryne and not good at supporting her, and it could be read as emotionally abusive even though I don't think the writers intended it to come across that way. There are times where he basically refuses to comfort her when she's upset.

Thancred accepted Minfilia was dead. He was distant to not grow attached because Ryne is not the same person. This isn't hard.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Thancred accepted Minfilia was dead. He was distant to not grow attached because Ryne is not the same person. This isn't hard.

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And being distant was doing an entirely different sort of emotional damage to Ryne.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

And being distant was doing an entirely different sort of emotional damage to Ryne.

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"Father dear, wouldst thou please cease dragging me by the wrist and cringing at the mere mention of my name? I cannot help but be who I am. I am who I am and I am who I will always be. Save the off chance we happen to meet my soul's previous incarnation, upon which I shall promptly change my outlook on life, name and hair dye. I did not agree to be whisked away from the dungeons of Eulmore by you for you to now act the same way as Ran'jit but with better-looking physique."

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I do think Thancred was – not deliberately abusive, but still – unnecessarily harsh on Ryne and not good at supporting her, and it could be read as emotionally abusive even though I don't think the writers intended it to come across that way. There are times where he basically refuses to comfort her when she's upset.

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Agreed. he wasn't abusive per se, he had his issues, but we also have to consider Ryne was a very mentally and emotionally frail person who was separated from her family and imprisoned in some dungeon at such a young age that she couldn't even remember her original name, so at least from her perspective, the only reason Thancred even looks at her direction is because she's Minfilia - Ryne's entire self worth was based on being someone else and she was failing at even that. I know they went for the "actions speak louder than words" approach but I would've liked if Thancred apologized to her directly, but oh well.


More on topic, at least to me, G'raha was always a goofy WoL simp, even as the Exarch (wee see hints of that as early as 5.0, understandably making some believe he even has a crush on us) and was finally able to 'drop the act' when his job was done and can now enjoy being, what, 150 years younger and not have over half his body covered in crystal? and even still it's ambiguous if he's the Exarch possessing younger G'raha, or younger G'raha who absorbed the Exarch's memories but is still himself.

If anything, I enjoy 'fanservicy' G'raha more because we already have more than enough stoic and mature type characters in the cast, but again, that's just my two gil.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

"Father dear..."

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Where the heck do you get that read from?

Ryne needed reassurance that Thancred cared about her, and wasn't simply keeping her around because she was necessary to save the world if this otherworldly champion failed. She felt like he was only grudgingly putting up with her and really didn't want anything to do with her because it hurt and reminded him of Minfilia.

Thancred thought he was doing the right thing by standing back and letting her be her own person, but really what she needed was support. Our character could see it, Urianger could see it, but Thancred himself either couldn't or just didn't know how to handle it.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Where the heck do you get that read from?

Ryne needed reassurance that Thancred cared about her, and wasn't simply keeping her around because she was necessary to save the world if this otherworldly champion failed. She felt like he was only grudgingly putting up with her and really didn't want anything to do with her because it hurt and reminded him of Minfilia.

Thancred thought he was doing the right thing by standing back and letting her be her own person, but really what she needed was support. Our character could see it, Urianger could see it, but Thancred himself either couldn't or just didn't know how to handle it.

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Myself. That's my reading of why he made her so uncomfortable.

We all know that she loved and was thankful for Thancred, but him being so distant and lashing out at her did not help.

In case you haven't noticed it, I'm LITERALLY doing satire there. It's me shitposting to the seventh hell and back.

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Originally Posted by Allegor

More on topic, at least to me, G'raha was always a goofy WoL simp, even as the Exarch (wee see hints of that as early as 5.0, understandably making some believe he even has a crush on us) and was finally able to 'drop the act' when his job was done and can now enjoy being, what, 150 years younger and not have over half his body covered in crystal? and even still it's ambiguous if he's the Exarch possessing younger G'raha, or younger G'raha who absorbed the Exarch's memories but is still himself.

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Agreed – there are a few scenes and remarks from others that suggest he is trying very hard to keep up the "stoic ancient mage" mask towards us and it's slipping. Nervously bobbing outside our door, the whole passionate speech about going on an adventure and riding the eternal wind together... it's all the same passion tempered by age and secrecy, and as soon as the game is up and his identity is revealed, he's more back to his old self, though immediate events require him to maintain his more formal side as city leader.

I think as much as anything it's acting differently in different spheres of life. He can still muster up that air of authority if necessary, but it was always only a role he was pushed into playing (however well and honestly he played it) and now the burden is off his shoulders. He doesn't have to act like a mature leader and nobody in the Source expects him to, so he doesn't try to restrain his natural more casual state.

I like to think that if they have any separate awareness of each other, the Exarch's consciousness is deliberately taking a back seat. But they may simply have merged perfectly and it is just one person who is and always has been Raha, whatever his title and age.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Where the heck do you get that read from?

Ryne needed reassurance that Thancred cared about her, and wasn't simply keeping her around because she was necessary to save the world if this otherworldly champion failed. She felt like he was only grudgingly putting up with her and really didn't want anything to do with her because it hurt and reminded him of Minfilia.

Thancred thought he was doing the right thing by standing back and letting her be her own person, but really what she needed was support. Our character could see it, Urianger could see it, but Thancred himself either couldn't or just didn't know how to handle it.

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Wasn't he? I recall with rather refreshing clarity that Ryne was intended to be the backup plan by the entire party. Cruel perhaps, but when an entire world's at risk....

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Originally Posted by Petite

I have no clue if this topic has been discussed before. My apologies in advance if it has.

I personally think G'raha's story should have ended atop the Crystal Tower without him returning to the Source.

It would have "cemented" him as a much more awe-inspiring character for his sacrifice (to me) and would have added even more emotional weight to 5.3's ending. Instead, we know in advance that he'll come back and we even get to meet him in the Source just 30 minutes after the fact.

I don't hate him. I think he's a fine addition to the Scions. But whenever I think of him now, I think of fanservice.

On a side note, I don't excuse Y'shtola's many fakeouts either. But plot-armor is a discussion for another thread.

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I still like Graha but yeah I agree he should have died in 5.3

His whole sacrifice meant nothing to me because I knew he was not actually going to stay dead. No near death moments or sacrifices of main cast means much of anything to me when they never actually face the consequences of said sacrifice. Their refusal to kill people off just meant I never believed any of it for a moment so I felt nothing.

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Originally Posted by Aelin_Ashryver

His whole sacrifice meant nothing to me because I knew he was not actually going to stay dead. No near death moments or sacrifices of main cast means much of anything to me when they never actually face the consequences of said sacrifice. Their refusal to kill people off just meant I never believed any of it for a moment so I felt nothing.

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In the lead-up to 5.3 I was all set to have a good cry over the Exarch's obvious impending poetic-and-thematically-appropriate death and instead I got "no, don't worry, we can transfer my soul, but we'll have a sad death scene regardless" and it just felt hollow.

I'm happy with getting young G'raha as an ongoing companion, but we could have had that without the Exarch surviving.

I'm really a huge fan of Graha and his personality is great. I personally tend to like kind characters. It never felt strange that Graha was a fan boy. His entire life has been dedicated to saving multiple worlds and he pushed through all the trials because he wanted to save the WOL, his hero. Sure sounds like a fanboy from the beginning to me. Lyna literally says he doesnt have be pretend to be someone he isnt. Some may not like him but I promise there are many like myself that do like him.