"I don't want to think while I play, so no one should be allowed to."

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Originally Posted by Selvokaz

You want more but you're not using what you already have but want to say its the game not giving you enough to do with the role you chose to play. That's not a game problem that's a YOU problem, you need to go do content where you have to expend your supposed faster reflexes and analytical mind. Maybe doing Extreme, Savage and Ultimates your only reason for playing if that's what you need to feel that healing is now something you have to do more, do it in pugs I guarantee you you'll be doing nothing but healing there 98% of the time.

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And yet, in FFII, WHM had Ultima, in III, it had Aero. In those games, you would eventually use more healing because, every turns you had damage to heal, but it's not the case in FFXIV, healing is largely spread in small burst heal phase and outside of it, it's insignificant...

Cant tell for Ultimates, but I garantee you that you will do damage for 90% of the time in PUG on EX and Savage. The healing required is low and spread enough so you can wait for your oGCD to come back. People doesn't need to be topped off if there is no damage coming soon... But since you suggested to cast the worst spells of the game to use in a full pack earlier(Succor), I suppose your opinions doesn't matters...

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Is that really what most healers are asking for, a couple extra DPS buttons? Does that mean that Sage is perfect as a healer, since there are, um, 4 DPS buttons instead of 2?

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For the sake of engaging with something that should actually be raised and out of apologies for coming across as rude (English isn't my first language so this generally isn't often my intent, but I do apologize regardless)

Yes, SGE is probably the most fun of the 4 healers in AoE situations/dungeons because of getting to use Toxicon, Phlegma, and even Pneuma on top of it instead of compared to something like Scholar which literally only has Art of War to use. I can appreciate what they were going for when it comes to SGE, but buttons you don't want to hit in ST or that you know you're losing damage on in encounters where you're supposed to be doing as much damage as possible don't feel good to players who do want to optimize in content that requires you to play as optimally as you can.

Pneuma works in AoE situations because the mobs are constantly slapping the tank, so the heal AND the damage are both always useful. In ST encounters such as raids, there isn't that level of damage hitting constantly and Pneuma is DPS neutral with Dosis, meaning you're going to use it as a heal, leading to situations where you just may never hit it at all because you also have so many oGCDs that can heal big and so does your cohealer. It's functionally the same with Toxicon - in dungeons your tank can really use that shielding and Toxicon is a DPS gain with a lot of mobs, but in ST you have so many mitigation options that do not require you to stop doing damage, so fishing for Toxicon procs outside of downtime is always a DPS loss, and when you're working towards beating the enrage timer, you want to do everything you can to not lose that DPS; it's why WHMs did not want to interact with lilies in ShB as healing tools because the "refund" was a DPS loss except when you NEEDED to move, and it's why having Misery DPS neutral is better for WHM than lilies were previously.

The most frustrating thing about SGE is how it shows the developers inability to try anything that pushes the boundaries of the healer box they have set themselves in when healers were previously not in this box. High end content in this game is pretty much entirely single target encounters unless you do Ultimate (where Dyskrasia and Art of War are gains on two, so more 1 button spam in a different flavor!) and that leaves SGE feeling the worst out of any of the healers to "DPS" on because they're willing to let it have a bit more fun in "content that doesn't matter" but are terrified of actually letting any healer have that type of fun in the content "that does matter" when it concerns job balance. This is why I'm just a big proponent of bringing Miasma and Bane back to Scholar; because having buttons that you want to use in both AoE and ST situations is GOOD, and having that interactivity within a kit is a good thing. In Stormblood, SCH used Bio II, Miasma, Miasma II in both AoE and ST situations because of the ability to spread DoTs with Bane and Miasma II being a DPS gain in the ST rotation if properly managed. Now SCH no longer has that, and it just spams Art of War over and over in AoE situations, and its boring and not fun.

We want buttons that provide something meaningful to break up our 1-1-1 spam. A second DoT to manage on a different timer, buffs/debuffs, etc, whatever. It doesn't HAVE to be DPS, but we had those DPS options in the past, they're still in the game with animations, sound effects, etc; all it would require is a little tuning on the DPS numbers to make sure we aren't doing more DPS than before and readding the buttons. If they want to radically redesign these jobs to be more engaging, I'm all for that, but whatever they do, it cannot be more of this 1 button spam.

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Originally Posted by Selvokaz

You want more but you're not using what you already have but want to say its the game not giving you enough to do with the role you chose to play. That's not a game problem that's a YOU problem, you need to go do content where you have to expend your supposed faster reflexes and analytical mind. Maybe doing Extreme, Savage and Ultimates your only reason for playing if that's what you need to feel that healing is now something you have to do more, do it in pugs I guarantee you you'll be doing nothing but healing there 98% of the time.

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You have just proven that
1) you have no idea about healers beyond a very basic "I make HP bars go up <3" level
2) you have no idea about the content you're talking about

I've healed Ex, Savage and Ultimate.
Ex and Savage on release day/ 1st week. I've done plenty of Ex and Savage in PUGs.
On my first UwU kill I had spent 269 out of 423 actions on dps.
89 actions were spent on healing, including downtime healing when we had no target to attack.
The others were things like Sprint, Lucid, potion etc.
89 actions out of 423 spent on healing. In which world is that 98% or "nothing but healing"?

And if we're talking about GCDs... I have bad news for you.
Then I spent a whooping 236 GCDs on dps.
And a measly 38 GCDs on healing... again, counting downtime healing when I had literally nothing else to do but use a shield because I had nothing to attack anyway.
In a level 70 Ultimate where I don't have Recitation, SS trait, Fey Blessing, Seraph, Protraction and Expedient.

And that was the encounter where I healed most. I spend less time healing in weekly savage reclear PUGs that don't mitigate and with a co heal I don't know.

If you could kindly point me to all the Ex, Savage and Ultimates that make me "nothing but heal 98% of the time" I'd be off.

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Originally Posted by Selvokaz

Suggestions like "give healers more combat options." get shot down because there is no grounds for it.

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Here's my grounds - 1 button spam isn't fun and this videogame should be FUN. Scholar had more DoTs in the past and its lore directly ties into the DoTs and the fairy they took away from us. If we want to go into "muh FF lore" then all you need to look at is FFXI's Scholar to see that SCH had a huge DoT focus there with helix spells and had way more offensive options too. We're using "FF lore!!" as an excuse right? Then there's no excuse for SCH being the way it is. Give me my White and Black Grimoires, give me my weather based spells and DoTs, give me stratagems, give me Modus Veritas to let me reduce the timers on my DoTs and make them do more damage, etc. Lore's lore, right? Give it back then if it matters so much.

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You want more but you're not using what you already have but want to say its the game not giving you enough to do with the role you chose to play. That's not a game problem that's a YOU problem, you need to go do content where you have to expend your supposed faster reflexes and analytical mind. Maybe doing Extreme, Savage and Ultimates your only reason for playing if that's what you need to feel that healing is now something you have to do more, do it in pugs I guarantee you you'll be doing nothing but healing there 98% of the time.

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Tell me you've never done Savage without telling me you've never done Savage.

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Originally Posted by Selvokaz

Yes, because the game's lore is the core of it and its job classes, it's a MAGIC CLASS like other magic classes that use one button to do the heavy part of their damage with similar if not superior potency is why they only need 1 button. They aren't monks, they don't run combos. If anything is a symbol of their strength that they only need 1 button and have comparable power to other MAGIC JOBS. Suggestions like "give healers more combat options." get shot down because there is no grounds for it. White Mages are NOT offensive powerhouses, be thankful they are as powerful offensively as they are period.

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????

If anything lore in FFXIV is testimony to healers being less powerful and offensively oriented than they should be.

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Originally Posted by QooEr

average healing design defender
https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...=210&height=83


yes healing is surely really fun when you have absolutely no clue what youre doing and youre desperately shielding the party and then the shields wear off after 30 seconds because nobody took damage.

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You don't even need to use FFLogs, you can look at the Lodestone achievements of the average healing defender on here and see that they have never touched savage. Hell, a certain Miqo'te in this thread has never even done a NORMAL raid. Which is just par for the course, really.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

What if someone fell in love with the role in HW/SB, and are disappointed at the more recent direction that has fundamentally altered how the role plays? How is the role undergoing vast changes from its original incarnationnot a game problem?


Even healing in Ultimate consists of spamming one damage button 99% of the time. The design around healing actually isn't that different from all the content elsewhere in the game, it's just fatal if you don't mitigate it properly, which is a collective responsibility for the entire party and not unique to healers. Otherwise it's still a matter of using the exact same heals at the exact same time every pull, while spamming one button the absolute vast majority of the time.

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And? you hit the one dps (one of at least 2 that you have) button you have, did you or anyone else die during said content and you brought them back? Did you still clear? Did you contribute 5% or more damage to taking down the boss? if it's yes to any of these then again congratulations its working as intended.
No one here has yet said anything about why the healer jobs legit need to all of a sudden be a special case separate from every other caster.

I don't play SCH in Savage (I'm SMN there), but I usually roll into Expert dungeon with it for queue times.

I prefer SCH as a healer because I literally never have to cast a GCD heal if I don't feel like it. I don't have to take my target off the tank unless a DPS stepped in the bad. It's the laziest healer and I love it so much.

Sure, Art of War one button spam is boring, but it's also satisfying in a way to NOT EVER HAVE TO STOP SLAPPING THE GROUND because the tank is good and the DPS got everything dead enough that I could finish off the final mob with a quick Ruin II.

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Originally Posted by Selvokaz

And? you hit the one dps (one of at least 2 that you have) button you have, did you or anyone else die during said content and you brought them back? Did you still clear? Did you contribute 5% or more damage to taking down the boss? if it's yes to any of these then again congratulations its working as intended.
No one here has yet said anything about why the healer jobs legit need to all of a sudden be a special case separate from every other caster.

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This is so embarrassing. Please just do not engage in any healer conversation. You're not contributing to the conversation. Go back to clearing the dead ends or whatever, just please stay out of healer discussion with people who are 20 steps ahead of you in their knowledge of the game and their skill level.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

I've gotta say, this has been one of the most pleasant conversations I've had in the forums lol.
Maybe when datacenter visit comes around we can probably do a lil bit of content together.
Maybe just chat about the state of the game in game and what not. You seem pretty chill.

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I intended to respond to this but then got distracted by all the other fun fires going on lol. I agree the conversation was good, it was actually both fun and ended up feeling quite sincere.

I always enjoy talking about ideas and game concepts (hence my post count, which I'd say is easily majority 'ideas / thoughts' directly related to gameplay and mechanics).. so I wasn't anticipating disliking the conversation but I wasn't sure if we'd end up being like "NO U" lol. We did not :P.

Always welcome to talk to me when I'm in game, if I can't login to Balmung because server capacity due too much 'exceptional'RP going on then I'll know where else to try hahaha ;). Currently my schedule is login, garden, do 1 to 4 pvp sessions and log out lol. You best believe I'll be all up in that Island Sanctuary when it's out tho :D

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Originally Posted by Selvokaz

snip

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even FFXI white mages has more WHITE Magic combat than ffxiv white mages

https://www.bg-wiki.com/images/8/84/...escription.png

https://www.bg-wiki.com/images/c/c6/...escription.png

https://www.bg-wiki.com/images/8/80/...escription.png

https://www.bg-wiki.com/images/2/22/...escription.png

https://www.bg-wiki.com/images/c/cf/...escription.png

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Originally Posted by Catwho

I don't play SCH in Savage (I'm SMN there), but I usually roll into Expert dungeon with it for queue times.

I prefer SCH as a healer because I literally never have to cast a GCD heal if I don't feel like it. I don't have to take my target off the tank unless a DPS stepped in the bad. It's the laziest healer and I love it so much.

Sure, Art of War one button spam is boring, but it's also satisfying in a way to NOT EVER HAVE TO STOP SLAPPING THE GROUND because the tank is good and the DPS got everything dead enough that I could finish off the final mob with a quick Ruin II.

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I remember casting Bio and Miasma, then spreading the Dots with Bane. One of the most satisfying things ever. Then maintaining Miasma II and Shadowflare up while juggling with tank health was really entertaining.

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

even FFXI white mages has more WHITE Magic combat than ffxiv white mages

https://www.bg-wiki.com/images/8/84/...escription.png

https://www.bg-wiki.com/images/c/c6/...escription.png

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Do they? I was glancing really quick and I'd say the number is actually pretty similar when you consider repeat spells and such. Like Banish 1 / 2 / 3, etc all the same spell.

Speaking potency specific:
FFXI:
Dia, Banish, Diaga, holy, may count cure?
3 - 4

FFXIV
Aero, stone, holy, fatback, and flatulence mastery
4 (with spell rules that imo makes them more interesting to use)

FFXI has more debuff specific spells though.

Yet I'm not saying that to be an argument against adding anything cool and interesting! Was just curious about the statement and thought 'maybe not?'

Debuffs for the sake of it:
FFXI:
Slow, silence, flash, addle
4

FFXIV:
Reeepose!!!
1, yeet

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Originally Posted by Selvokaz

And? you hit the one dps (one of at least 2 that you have) button you have, did you or anyone else die during said content and you brought them back? Did you still clear? Did you contribute 5% or more damage to taking down the boss? if it's yes to any of these then again congratulations its working as intended.
No one here has yet said anything about why the healer jobs legit need to all of a sudden be a special case separate from every other caster.

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>Squares reduces DPS jobs and Tanks to 1-2 dps buttons the rest being 20 repeats of the same Damage reduction button or DPS buff button.
>People complain about their rotations being reduced to mindless spam.
>"You can still contribute DPS with your streamlined kits, its working as intended."

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Originally Posted by Selvokaz

And? you hit the one dps (one of at least 2 that you have) button you have, did you or anyone else die during said content and you brought them back? Did you still clear? Did you contribute 5% or more damage to taking down the boss? if it's yes to any of these then again congratulations its working as intended.

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Where to start =(

Pugs and random deaths/vulns make little to no difference to our cast ratio if you know your kit and timers well. That goes for all levels of content.

In casual stuff like Aglaia, normal modes and arguably even Extremes and the first floor of Savage, you're just not pressured on your oGCDs. You can top the people that need to be topped whilst continuing to pulverise the nuke button because the healing requirements are typically so low that you're not having to rotate everything on CD to keep the group topped. Even in P4S P1 I would throw a Tetra on the Holmganging Warrior eating a tank buster simply because there was nothing else whatsoever to use it on.

In top end content such as the harder Savage floors and Ultimates you generally can't afford fails at all. Best case you eat a damage down and run the risk of failing to beat enrage, worst case the mechanic just kills the player and wipes the group.

In both cases, much of the time it's irrelevant anyway because splash healing can cover it. Someone eaten a stack but Assize is up in a 10 seconds? It's not a problem.

And over shielding tanks is just a huge waste of time in modern content. Dungeon trash pulls hit harder than almost anything else in this game now. It's genuinely hilarious.

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Originally Posted by Selvokaz

No one here has yet said anything about why the healer jobs legit need to all of a sudden be a special case separate from every other caster.

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We've repeated it multiple times throughout multiple threads. You're just too set on your obstinate little path to see it and you clearly have about as much interest in anyone else's opinion as you do in getting good. :rolleyes:

well keep in mind, Slow, Paralyzed, Dia II, Holy II are white magics as well

also FFXI whites mages can also uses those spells only if your subjob can use those spells like red mage, Runefencer, Scholar, Geomancer

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

well keep in mind, Slow, Paralyzed, Dia II, Holy II are white magics as well

also FFXI whites mages can also uses those spells only if your subjob can use those spells like red mage, Runefencer, Scholar, Geomancer

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I don't believe it is fair to count Dia separate from Dia II. In that case I'd count stone, stone x, glower, glower X, etc, etc. Which bloats the numbers for both jobs. I think in terms of game design they don't offer enough to be interesting enough to separately count. Dia is Dia II with a essentially passive adjustment, like FFXIV has (with mp costs and cast time they're not exactly a direct upgrade, at least back when I played FFXI, but for the purpose of this conversation I'd argue they're definitely in similar veins and we're not counting FFXIV's passive upgrades).

Like I see your edit with Boost and I do think I'd count that under potency effects, but I wouldn't count each one separately. It's bloated compared to what more interesting rules could provide in a more modern game. (Though including Boost does make FFXI either on par or 1 above FFXIV in count of potency effecting spells).


The point I do like particularly is that FFXI has subjobs, which could technically suggest a lot. Jobs are not just 'jobs' in FFXI. Personally I wouldn't use too much of FFXI's combat as an example, because to me having interesting tooltips/combos/interactions is more fun than the find a spell in a menu type system from FFXI.

Like you can have a lot of 'options' in FFXI but I'd prefer to have a lot more 'smart' spells than just 'lots of options'. (Which isn't a full defense of FFXIV, as I've put in other posts I think we could enhance jobs with smarter spells or sometimes more options like I did suggest more buff / debuff spells with a bias based on which job you were and even removing some healing spells for two reasons.. 1) it will reduce the amount of healing output potential meaning healing might be a bit more valuable and 2) regain slots to do something a bit more fun like buff / debuff or just another offensive spell of value).

So I'd append to my first response to you that I still don't think FFXI would make a shining example, becaues I wouldn't want to replicate the spell bloat, and I do think FFXIV and FFXI are not terribly far away from each other on white mage when speaking potency specific spells (its like 4-5 vs 4), but I would still agree there is more fun that could be added (and I don't think it has to be against the theme of healer, which I believe is one reason why SE is not hot on damage spells- add more support skills over straight healing then as the repeated example).

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Originally Posted by Selvokaz

Hearing Impairment

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I swear the people that write these arguments really need to get over themselves. We get it, you aren't skilled enough to manage 2 DoTs or even something as simple as a WAR's rotation on a Healer. The rest of us, however, have long since mastered those skills and got shafted by the constant removal of skills from healers over the years.

It has nothing to do with wanting 7-8 DPS skills and everything to do with wanting something to do beyond spamming 1 all day.

SCH has X amount of skills or WHM has Y number is irrelevant because that's literally no more than what they had in HW, where they actually had some semblance of a DPS rotation and still healed just fine.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

I swear the people that write these arguments really need to get over themselves. We get it, you aren't skilled enough to manage 2 DoTs or even something as simple as a WAR's rotation on a Healer. The rest of us, however, have long since mastered those skills and got shafted by the constant removal of skills from healers over the years.

It has nothing to do with wanting 7-8 DPS skills and everything to do with wanting something to do beyond spamming 1 all day.

SCH has X amount of skills or WHM has Y number is irrelevant because that's literally no more than what they had in HW, where they actually had some semblance of a DPS rotation and still healed just fine.

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They are stuck in the "my class should be better" mindset, if you look at their arguments.

You healer ? You've no right to enjoy a dps rotation (or buff / debuff rotation, for all I care). I'm a dps, so this rotation is mine.

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Originally Posted by Selvokaz

Yes, because the game's lore is the core of it and its job classes, it's a MAGIC CLASS like other magic classes that use one button to do the heavy part of their damage with similar if not superior potency is why they only need 1 button. They aren't monks, they don't run combos. If anything is a symbol of their strength that they only need 1 button and have comparable power to other MAGIC JOBS. Suggestions like "give healers more combat options." get shot down because there is no grounds for it. White Mages are NOT offensive powerhouses, be thankful they are as powerful offensively as they are period. In any Main series Final Fantasy a after maybe the 3rd game white mages had some secondary mechanic to give them more flavor. in 4 Rosa had Archery skills meaning she was an Archer White Mage, in 7 Aerith had limit breaks, in 8 Rinoa had Angelo, in 9 Garnet had summons, and in 10 Yuna had summons.

You want more but you're not using what you already have but want to say its the game not giving you enough to do with the role you chose to play. That's not a game problem that's a YOU problem, you need to go do content where you have to expend your supposed faster reflexes and analytical mind. Maybe doing Extreme, Savage and Ultimates your only reason for playing if that's what you need to feel that healing is now something you have to do more, do it in pugs I guarantee you you'll be doing nothing but healing there 98% of the time.

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If you want to RP, by all means do so, but kindly do so in Limsa, of in your house, or set up a PF to run a dungeon without a job stone if it makes you happy - however please don't request to have any job designed around this one button garbage. No caster hit one button 75% of the time for the majority of their damage.

Also this "you want more but you're not using what you already have"-- . no, that's a YOU problem, because clearly you've ignored the comments from people who already play healers at all levels of comment, and do so in statics as well as pugs.

whats funny s everyone sits here and defends healer design when we still have undraw and fey gauge LMAO

I'm getting 2nd hand embarrassment just from reading certain individual outing themselves encouraging bad practices. I know this is not an exactly healer focused thread based on the OP (I think...), but boi. How ludicrously shallow they are.. just like the role's design itself.

This has to be one of my favorite threads I've started lmao y'all are getting their asses. I don't even have to say anything. But I will!

Every single argument in favor of current healers is inextricably based in "I enjoy it because I play it badly," if any of them were to no longer play it badly they, too, would realize where we're coming from. But they're of the party of players who don't want to get good and therefore find the suggestion that they have room to improve to be offensive. They don't want to improve, they don't want to try, they just want to turn their brains off and press one button for dps between spamming medica 2 or succor because can't let the regens or shields drop!!! They don't say it, but it's quite obvious that they don't want healers to have more complex dps because they wouldn't or couldn't do it with their current lack of drive (not skill, I'm a firm believer that anyone can become good at this game with a bit of determination), and their failings would then be more obvious compared to those who do pull off their rotations.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

I'm getting 2nd hand embarrassment just from reading certain individual outing themselves encouraging bad practices. I know this is not an exactly healer focused thread based on the OP (I think...), but boi. How ludicrously shallow they are.. just like the role's design itself.

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I didn't intend it to be entirely healers, but they're the greatest victims of dumbing down jobs so there's a lot more to say for them. Also if I were to say I miss tank stances I'd get jumped so lol.

https://files.catbox.moe/zqu2t8.png

One of these days, Scholar's job guide on the Lodestone will look like this and I will cry, Yoshida please. Literally one little funny purple button

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

I'm getting 2nd hand embarrassment just from reading certain individual outing themselves encouraging bad practices. I know this is not an exactly healer focused thread based on the OP (I think...), but boi. How ludicrously shallow they are.. just like the role's design itself.

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I know that we've seen a lot of weird takes on this forum but dear lord lol.. this deserves an award of some sort.

I will say the lack of direct feedback about healer concerns is valid. I would like to hear more from the devs on the topic. I'm not in the camp for more dps, but I would like more things for us to do. My desires trend more toward buff/debuff/crowd control and remaining firmly in a more support position.

Something I have noticed from being a WHM main since ARR is that mechanics did not require nearly as much movement in the past, but we also had to stay still more since we did not have as many options for instants. As our ability to move more increased, the complexity of the mechanics in the fights increased. If they intend to continue this trend, I can see where they may have concerns about individual job complexity.

I also know a lot of my experience in PUGs depends on who I get. With a well-oiled machine, I'm rather bored since much healing isn't needed. With a pear-shaped group I'm constantly busy. That we have this variability could be another reason the developers are cautious about what they do and don't add. But it would be nice to have their thoughts on the matter.

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Originally Posted by anhaato

I didn't intend it to be entirely healers, but they're the greatest victims of dumbing down jobs so there's a lot more to say for them. Also if I were to say I miss tank stances I'd get jumped so lol.

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I'm def glad tank stance dancing and cleric dancing are gone, though I wasn't of the opinion it had to be removed entirely- I just really disliked having to do it on at least one job lol. My suggestion long ago was to change Paladin to a new Oath system, such that you might spend your points to take an oath and it would have an effect for sometime with activation effects on the oaths themselves as well. So you might have a moment where you burn all your gauge to have both Shield and Sword active at the same time (or there might be some super holy power at later levels that gives you fancy aura effects and activates a 'super oath' lol). Effects wouldn't be exactly the same, obviously since it's less passive now, and I was imagining it would also come back around to other mechanics almost like a spell blade / rune blade / Death Knight like concept (making Oaths would allow you to release havoc later, making the concept itself a sort of core component that leans on being a 'Paladin').

But on point- I didn't like having to stance dance and lose a GCD and stuff like that I always felt annoyed to do it but did it because I knew there was a substantial difference if you didn't. Beyond finding it very cumbersome / annoying I also felt it went against what I would prefer to consider the roleplay theme of the job was "I don't intentionally defeat my own purpose of being a TANK by tanking worse". Similar reasons for healer. Silly to shoot yourself in the foot for your own job's purpose, so I didn't like it as a concept. Back onto a gameplay level of annoyance I'd say it was akin to Warrior's needing esuna'd on berserk, felt very cumbersome and not fun (imo).

I don't think those strategies for gameplay enhancements are the best examples of making something more complex / interesting. Particularly because they also /ensure/ a huge difference between decent play and skilled play. Ideally there is an opportunity for fine tuning and feeling clever, but I don't think having many situations (or perhaps jobs in general) that it's like okay-good play "dirt on the ground" skilled play "the next solar system over".

So I maintain, at least for some jobs, it was a great move- and I prefer the play style without it. But I didn't really feel it had to be entirely purged lol. Though at the same time I would have liked to discuss /other/ ways to maintain some interesting choices while it being less inhibitive to your own purpose. As even if it was just saying "maybe some jobs should keep it" I'd be like "can we not do better?" "are there not BETTER ideas to do what that does? Let's discuss that, I am not here to purge and give you nothing.. but I don't think you have the best either". I don't think those two spells were particularly good spells for quality gameplay, imo (but I don't mean to say all jobs get it removed and nothing fills the void created, as it obviously did require some technical skill to use).

/pounce :p

I miss stance dancing but I understand why people disliked it.
Perhaps it would've felt better if it was more designed as a reward for good tanking. FFXIV mitigation is, unfortunately, extremely straightforward and disconnected from everything else: push button, take less damage for x seconds. There is no real thought behind it.

I would prefer it if it was more dynamic and interactive and the dps stance was a reward for good tanking as in reacting particularly well to damage patterns.
You block a hit, now you can activate a skill within the next X s which gives you a very short buff (something like 3s) and if you take damage while the buff is up, you get a stronger damage reduction that offsets the one you lose from switching to dps stance while also increasing your damage in dps stance for a short while. The extremely short duration means you need to watch out for long casts and try to time it with the next auto/ raidwide going off but if executed well you get rewarded by taking the same damage as if in tank stance while benefitting from the dps increase of the dps stance and then you switch back.
On average it should be a dps gain over just blindly staying in dps stance because, say, you can't use the "after block" skill in dps stance. You can block but not use the skill.

You used a mitigation that lasts for 15s. For every hit you take during this time, you get one stack. Afterwards you can consume all stacks within x seconds to get the same benefit is above: damage reduction to offset the dps stance, slight additional dps gain in dps stance. So now it becomes important when exactly you use your mitigation instead of just "some time around x seconds so it gets the tankbuster". Timing it well rewards you with less damage taken from the additional hits that got mitigated (not interesting enough for most tanks to even try it) but also additional dps without any downside - and this should be interesting enough to work on mitigation timing. You get rewarded by thinking about your tank duty first.

These were examples from the top of my head, I'm sure others can come up with more polished examples but I hope it gets across what I mean by dps stance being a reward for good tanking instead of something that feels like it's going against the own role. I think damage should tie into your primary duty in the form of a reward instead of mitigation and dps being completely disconnected from each other.
Casual content doesn't require any of that so it would be perfectly fine to just chill in tank stance and pay no heed to it, there's no pressure to nail mitigating for some deeps gain.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

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well the issue is the same thing we see happen even now where instead of fixing things or trying to build around it to feel better they just gut it instead

ok aggro management is more on DPS than the tanks? get rid of aggro entirely instead clearly. instead of getting rid of other roles being able to divert aggro. forcing them to properly stance dance and understand their stance timings if they want to optimize. like ok i know after AOeing a few times in tank stance i can get 18s in my DPS stance before aggro starts to fall off, or do like what shougun said and make their resources be able to be used to maintain both forms for x seconds etc... there was so many ways they could've tackled it besides turning it braindead

same with slashing piercing blunt damage they could've really fine tuned the system but the issue is they couldn't design fights that gave each damage type a time to shine or be used, or even allow each damage type to be superior in at least one of each savage fight and maybe give them each a time to shine in the 4th fight of the tier (i would actually prefer option 2 since it would promote actually switching jobs if you wanted to be optimal and make use of the play all jobs on one character aspect)

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

I will say the lack of direct feedback about healer concerns is valid. I would like to hear more from the devs on the topic. I'm not in the camp for more dps, but I would like more things for us to do. My desires trend more toward buff/debuff/crowd control and remaining firmly in a more support position.

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people ask for more DPS options, most often DoTs, because it is the bare minimum the development team would have to do to make the role more interesting. Buffs, debuffs, and crowd control would all be nice, but are either harder to balance, or don't fit into FFXIV as it is right now. Whereas, for example, giving SCH back its DoTs would instantly skyrocket veteran player job satisfaction without distorting the balance of the game. DoT #2 and #3 being executed properly could be a <15pps gain over Broil spamming and people would rejoice anyway, because they would finally have something to do.

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Originally Posted by tearagion

Whereas, for example, giving SCH back its DoTs would instantly skyrocket veteran player job satisfaction without distorting the balance of the game. DoT #2 and #3 being executed properly could be a <15pps gain over Broil spamming and people would rejoice anyway, because they would finally have something to do.

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The fact that they don't even do something as simple as that and instead insist that they know best and an additional DoT or two would "stress the baby healers" is one of the reasons I don't really have any faith in job design in this game anymore. It's mindboggling they've doubled down on this unfun ""gameplay style"" of Broil spam and that they've even made tanks have busted self healing kits to facilitate us smashing our 1 button MORE. Everyone gets to have more fun but us.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

I miss stance dancing but I understand why people disliked it.
Perhaps it would've felt better if it was more designed as a reward for good tanking.

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I don't know about you but I felt pretty darn rewarded when my HW era drk was doing more dps than the dps and getting big D healing numbers due to said dps increase with stance dancing, lol.

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

and that they've even made tanks have busted self healing kits to facilitate us smashing our 1 button MORE. Everyone gets to have more fun but us.

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Yeah I don't understand why they gave tanks busted upgrades. Heart of Corundum was awesome to use at first but they didn't increase the damage on tanks to compensate it's really dumb that I have a 15% + 15% + 900p heal almost on demand. In savage it's so overtuned even at minimum ilvl it's nuts

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Originally Posted by pikalovr

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...he-expert-idea

the issue is no one would still use it unless basically forced. and the people who already sandbag teams and do practically nothing would just do whats needed to pass and then go back to doing nothing is the issue what really needs to happen is encounter/fight design to change to actually punish and force people to wake up zodiark normal is a great example of this with the starfall and rotation mechanics for example

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So you're against your own idea? My suggestion was for helping with rotations on learning new classes, I'm not suggesting make something people have to "pass". Boss mechanics are an entirely separate thing from job rotations. The issue with learning new jobs in this game is the lack of in game knowledge, even external knowledge is typically out of date unless it's a YT video, and those are typically long and boring to watch. FFXIV has no good single resource like WoWHead.

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Originally Posted by Aurikai

even external knowledge is typically out of date unless it's a YT video, and those are typically long and boring to watch. FFXIV has no good single resource like WoWHead.

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https://www.thebalanceffxiv.com/
https://www.akhmorning.com/

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Originally Posted by Aurikai

So you're against your own idea? My suggestion was for helping with rotations on learning new classes, I'm not suggesting make something people have to "pass". Boss mechanics are an entirely separate thing from job rotations. The issue with learning new jobs in this game is the lack of in game knowledge, even external knowledge is typically out of date unless it's a YT video, and those are typically long and boring to watch. FFXIV has no good single resource like WoWHead.

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no i would love for my idea to be made as it would allow people who WANT to get better access to places to train and learn more nuanced things from their kit. the issue is outside of making it mandatory it'll get ignored by 90% of the population. meaning it might as well not exist since it's purpose is to help teach players at higher thresholds outside of hall of novice which is basically level 1 training. and the players who would benefit from going through this so we stop getting cure 1 bots or ice mages or tanks who still single pull at level 90 etc... for example will jsut ignore it and continue their bad habits cause nobody the devs players etc... is actually forcing them to better themselves and understand even the basics of their roles/jobs. hell it wouldn't surprise me if 90% of new players completely skip hall of the novice heaven forbid you ask them to do each roles hall of the novice

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

I don't know about you but I felt pretty darn rewarded when my HW era drk was doing more dps than the dps and getting big D healing numbers due to said dps increase with stance dancing, lol.

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I did it for this reason, the difference was substantial- it felt irresponsible not to stance dance... But I didn't enjoy the mechanic at all and I've personally* enjoyed playing tanks far more since it removed.

*Not all jobs have to appeal to all players- of course... and it's worth noting, though I'll stand by my point that I don't think stance dancing is pinnacle design example even if you were targeting a wider / different range of players. Something doesn't sit right with me on the idea of purposefully hobbling your main theme goal in order to accomplish a main theme meta goal of the game, obviously in the few pages we've seen some suggestions so it's not like you can't have technical gameplay aspects replace stance dancing.. It just conceptually doesn't sound like a good idea to me (and I enjoy reading people's suggestions to replace it, keeping something technical but not antithesis to theme of the job).

I would be be for concepts that approach antithesis but are not even, for example Dark Knight might cut their own hp temporarily but then gain X greater hp back at the end or Y Defense (eHP increases)- and this would fit the Dark Knight theme certainly.

But there are things that work well in team sRPGs like losing control of your character (dragoon jump, self confuse huge damage increase, etc), or subverting a concept but you've a team you can pre-balance around (lose control of your dragoon in FFT? No problem you still have the rest of the party to play with and plan around)... that I think can sometimes just look.. 'bad' when you've lost that element of self checking because you've moved into a multiplayer space (like Warrior berserk esuna would probably be fine in an sRPG, but it's just plain silly in an MMORPG unless you're always with skilled team members who like babysitting that.. which is a subset of a subset of players, I think too obscure to specifically implement in a job that is meant to exist across all content). Or why I maintain diamondback on blue is just awful, even though it's very very powerful.

Honestly, I'm pretty much done trying to argue with Sylphies and Ice Mages for more engagement on healers or more gameplay in general that rewards playing well. The game isn't for me anymore, the developers don't want me and I've accepted it.

I've been doing what Yoshida said and playing other games and instead of the break renewing my interest in FF14 over time, it's actually killing it. There are some great games out there with actual challenge and after being treated like I have a functioning brain and being rewarded for it, I just can't force myself to come back here to faceroll Expert for tomes I don't care about or spend 1 minute flying over to an elephant and moving a crate 20 yards for my daily. Nor can I be bothered carrying awful players through content by playing my best in return for being resented as a filthy elitist.

There's just no point. I literally only play FF14 for Savage raids and to run my FC now. That's it.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Honestly, I'm pretty much done trying to argue with Sylphies and Ice Mages for more engagement on healers or more gameplay in general that rewards playing well. The game isn't for me anymore, the developers don't want me and I've accepted it.

I've been doing what Yoshida said and playing other games and instead of the break renewing my interest in FF14 over time, it's actually killing it. There are some great games out there with actual challenge and after being treated like I have a functioning brain and being rewarded for it, I just can't force myself to come back here to faceroll Expert for tomes I don't care about or spend 1 minute flying over to an elephant and moving a crate 20 yards for my daily. Nor can I be bothered carrying awful players through content by playing my best in return for being resented as a filthy elitist.

There's just no point. I literally only play FF14 for Savage raids and to run my FC now. That's it.

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the worst part is that other games are adopting this thinking of make everything super easy or super accessible and homogenized most upcoming MMO releases are crossplatform with mobile which will greatly limit themselves for example, and more and more dev teams/companies don't even communicate with their playerbase or even understand how their game works. and it's sad cause we won't see any changes cause people won't do anything about it

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Originally Posted by pikalovr

the worst part is that other games are adopting this thinking of make everything super easy or super accessible and homogenized most upcoming MMO releases are crossplatform with mobile which will greatly limit themselves for example, and more and more dev teams/companies don't even communicate with their playerbase or even understand how their game works. and it's sad cause we won't see any changes cause people won't do anything about it

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Ashes of Creation is my only copium for the inevitable complete lobotomy this game is about to face if the devs continue to refuse to listen to us.

The devs have made it clear that we're an inconvenience, but I still think we have the power to make them have to answer our concerns as long as numbers keep dropping.