Yeah, it definitely should be posted there. The screen with Zepla, along with the official forum post.Quote:
Originally Posted by SturmChurro
6.2 Hrothgar Update
Printable View
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06-23-2022, 07:02 AMVahlnir
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06-23-2022, 07:16 AMKelevAnd I'm telling you if I cite my source, and you don't, and that's the official translation that was posted here, then like in the two other threads where you've posted this exact response, I'm going to tell you the same thing I did there:Quote:
Originally Posted by SturmChurro
He said it. As evidence I'll offer my screen shot, the link, the fact that you've said this before, to me, and the fact that there are now (bad) hairstyles which he has acknowledged are not what the community wants.
So, even if you were right - and you're not - and posted evidence - and you didn't - a difference that makes no difference is no difference - they're out there and they suck. You can tell me all you want that hats weren't promised - they weren't, and we can talk about our feelings on the matter until we're blue in the face. But regarding hair:
He said it. Maybe he forgot. Maybe he hoped we'd forget. Maybe he remembered, and eventually realized "Oh, damn, I did actually promise those guys something, but after three years of neglect, this is harder than I thought."
So even if you show me 92 articles where he said he never said it, or stick to your previous tactic, and say a bunch more opinions you don't bother to back up because what you feel inside is more important, or even if you reference a "translation error" where you don't happen to speak Japanese either, or say "that's what people were saying," I'm going to go with what the recorded words that have blessed by the staff at SquareEnix because say what you will about their treatment of any group? I think we can all agree their localization team is slammin'.
Would you like to try a third time here, or is two enough? Or do the times you said it in previous threads count here too, in reply to me, where you still didn't back it up, and you've already had your three times?
-Kelly -
06-23-2022, 07:20 AMAelsiolnProof? If this quote you keep bringing up exists then you should be able to find it and share it with everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by SturmChurro
If it was a "mistranslation" they would have addressed that and clarified. -
06-23-2022, 07:32 AMSturmChurro
Seriously? I don't think people are understanding my intent right now - other than Vahlnir. I was being sarcastic and joking around. It's why I used emojis. I fully acknowledge that past quote, but what I am saying is Yoshida has seemingly forgotten or outright said the complete opposite this year. If you really want me to search through the big hrothgar thread to pull up newer quotes of him where he said he said they weren't going to receive any hair previously, or the discussions around that original quote being a supposed "mistranslation" I will.
The only thing I was saying was that they were clearly not intended to be updated upon their creation, regardless of what was said back then. They were in their 'complete' state, and that's why they could design them the way they did. Yoshida might have said they would receive hair, but their design, and original intent clearly doesn't line up with that statement, in my opinion. I have remained firm for years, that hrothgar are "finished" - to SE. Them being in "beta" implies that they considered them unfinished. -
06-23-2022, 07:45 AMXiRonThe problem with that line of thinking is they clearly didn't. Or some programmers didn't because they had to break into SE hq in the middle of the night to allow hrothgar and viera ANY headgear whatsoever rather than just accept Yoships original intent of purposefully screwing those races out of an entire gear slot.Quote:
Originally Posted by SturmChurro
It also makes no sense. How could any developer just sit there and be like "Oh hey fans, we made a new race for our game! Also the new race can never do anything besides what you do at Character Creation, isn't that neat!" and expect fans to just be fine with that? If a hrothgar pops a modern aesthete it still says "New hair options available", not "Hey numbnuts, go buy a fantasia and play a race we actually deign to care about".
So developer intent doesn't matter, not when you and me and he and she and they and GOD KNOW nobody would ever want to play a race that they can't do anything with to set it apart from ingame premade npcs. Thats mind-bogglingly stupid and if that were in fact the intent they should've made Hrothgar a beast race a la Vanu Vanu or Lupin wherein none of them look at all different from one another instead of a player race. But its a player race, and players like options, and they know that. They just decided hrothgar and their players are not WORTH creating options for. -
06-23-2022, 07:55 AMKelevI'll have a word with my sarcasm detector manufacturer...That's fine. My apologies on misunderstanding your sarcasm. Sometimes my sarcasm detector doesn't work, and people saying "you guys aren't supposed to get haircuts" raises my hackles (pun intended).Quote:
Originally Posted by SturmChurro
You don't need to find the thing. I've read Zhexos' reply many times. Mostly when I'm wondering if he got sucked out an airlock somewhere.
Hrothgar aren't finished to SE. Or, at least they shouldn't be. When a developer says "unorthodox methods," what that *historically* means is "we hacked something together we were intending to standardize later." That's what I mean by "beta" - they're full of kludges, and design decisions that make these things difficult to modify later. In addition, they're unfinished from the standpoint that the end implementation is not what the specification says. Maybe they're saying it now, but if you look at what makes a beta a beta, and what makes early access early access:
1) Not all features are implemented.
2) There are problems we know about.
3) We're still working through design issues.
4) People outside the company are using/testing the code.
Saying "When I initially designed Hrothgar I said no hairs" doesn't undo Live Letter 53. It doesn't mean he forgot. So even Zhexos' post doesn't say that. In fact, I can find no reference to him ever saying at announcement "There will be no additional hairs for Hrothgar ever." So sarcasm and my middle age bluster aside, he's going to have to cite his source too.
The haircuts, ears, no ears - are buggy. And clipping has been the excuse for not implementing more things, but they've always clipped. Look at Radomil's collar sometime. Half the gunbreaker trainer's mullet is clipping through his class armor. The Ronso horn punches through the new hairstyles. They don't stick to the skull.
And what, personally, I have asked for, is the allowance to use all of the hairstyles released with Hrothgar, and all the ear types - the features that were included with every other race and indicate that the modeling is, in fact, done. That modularity is, I would argue, what differentiates "early access" from "done." The Viera came with these features. The Hrothgar did not.
Because they've not been implemented. Hrothgar are unfinished by my estimation, and if the trouble they're having now is any indication, I think they'd agree.
That's beta/early access.
Finish the race.
-Kelly -
06-23-2022, 08:01 AMZanarkand-RonsoSo are you going to, after being asked to...or are you just gonna keep saying that you will do it, and never do it?Quote:
Originally Posted by SturmChurro
Like, I dont think thats real at all, so I would love to see proof of that.
Because, that makes no sense at all to release Hrothgar in the state that its in, and deam them "Finished" with only 1 Gender Option, and the lack of options; the inability to wear most headgerar, the lack of hair options, and then say Dont worry the Hrothgar will see updates.
The Outrage for these things shouldn't be a surprise to anybody, Devs, playerbase, onlookers etc.
It makes more sense to say they had to cut corners with the Creation of Hrothgar, because they said They just barley got both The Viera and the Hrothgar done at the same time. But I dont believe for a second they would just call it good and think everybody would be happy and have Zero plans of making fixes and making needed additions tot he Hrothgar.
If it was mistranslated that there were plans for these New Hairs (which there IS proof of new hairs in the making), and there is proof that No New Hairs were coming, Id love to see it. -
06-23-2022, 08:03 AMSturmChurroYeah, some devs might have thought the original design was not enough (no headgear whatsoever), but that doesn't change the intent from higher up: the decision maker(s). Like you say, they were originally intended to not have anything - not even headgear. In my opinion, the intent was clearly that hrothgar are a novelty race. To make the race look more unique, the choice was made to make their development so convoluted - which has now led to the current issues, making them difficult to update. Like I have stated, having them so difficult to update doesn't matter if they never intended on updating them in the first place. Anyway, the thing about hairstyles is, they are just a bonus to a race. A hairstyle isn't really "finishing" a race in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by XiRon
I do not believe that - well, nowadays probably, yes, but originally Yoshida said this was probably the "last chance" they would have to make player races. I have said before on these forums, that I think FFXIV's future was more suspect at that time. I don't think they had their ten year plan greenlit, or anything else. Originally, they might have actually had good intentions. As the "last chance" to add races, Yoshida wanted to add a beast race for players who like that kind of thing, and Viera a fan favorite, and heavily requested race. Compromises were made to allow their creation without adversely affecting their patch schedule (as he has stated).Quote:
Originally Posted by XiRon
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06-23-2022, 08:10 AMKelevHere's a Timeline...
This is what I have as a timeline for all the official communications for Hrothgar hair updates:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...56/unknown.png
This is not my work, but rather the illustrious and praiseworthy Sorren. Who, incidentally, couldn't find the "We said no hair" thing either.
-Kelly
PS: When I say I've done my homework on this issue, my husband has threatened me with a divorce if I mention Hrothgar hair in the house. He is, however, a Roegadyn, so I just tell him that he's a shaved Hrothgar with really, really good posture. I always, always, at my most passionate, angry, or disappointed moments, still try to stick to the truth. I don't ever want anyone saying "Kel's reading Convenient Theories For You Monthly Magazine again..." -
06-23-2022, 08:20 AMSturmChurroThe thing is I completely agree that they are in a bad state, and the comment about him saying he said they wouldn't receive any hair, when he clearly said they were during ShB is really.. odd. Especially when there are official quotes all over the place, saying they would get hairs. You can find quotes of me from when that was said, confused, trying to figure out when and where he supposedly said they weren't getting hairstyles. I played viera, on their launch, and have switched back and forth to viera for the past few years hoping for our supposed hair update. We all trusted that quote by Yoshida. Obviously, hrothgar have it worse, but it's not like I am not also bitter about it. When they do update these races, the quality is pretty much objectively bad across the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelev
Are you talking about the quote I'm talking about of him saying he said they weren't going to get hairstyles previously? I promise you there is a real quote. That hrothgar hair thread is HUGE(!), I suppose I didn't come prepared to "cite my sources" when I was making fun little replies, but I am telling you there is a quote of him saying that. The mistranslation thing I am not 100% sure if he said that, but I know people were talking about it quite a bit as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso
They literally said on release that it was the "last chance" for player races, and that they were to be 'gender locked'. Just because some people's definition of finished is both sexes, doesn't mean that is theirs. -
06-23-2022, 08:27 AMZanarkand-RonsoThat is a line I like reading <3Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelev
A small playerbase/fanbase, is still a base worth listening to.
The Hrothgar players deserve love to, their popularity shouldn't be an excuse or obstacle. -
06-23-2022, 08:28 AMMidareyukkiI THINK I remember you posting that somewhere in the 80+ page thread, but I'm not gonna go through it a second time to find stuff to add to a thread xDQuote:
Originally Posted by SturmChurro
I did that on the Feedback one, I'm not doing it again. I had to go through every page, and reading it all again just made me angrier and angrier at the situation when my intent was to be courteous. /playdead
Also, Churro, even when people write /s in the threads, it's hard to really gauge it's sarcasm. Speaking from second-hand experience. I know it's dumb, but it's best to state it's sarcasm, just to be safe.
On that note~
He's right. I think I told you this before, Churro, but even if Yoshida did say that, fan outcry has changed so much in the game. We did ask for some features and they've since acquiesced. We were led to believe that the races would be updated eventually if they had support. Which they have. A lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by XiRon
And even if they did. Past tense. They've since turned their back on that stance. But just because they did, it doesn't mean it's okay to drop low-effort and poor-quality content. As in, "okay sure, we know you didn't want to do this... but you CHOSE to do it now. So why are WE being punished? Why is this poorly done? If you decided to do this, then do it to the end, don't half-ass it."
TBH I think Churro knows this. Nor am I questioning the validity of their claim; it is still an interesting thing to wonder "what if SE really did say, in the past, that they wouldn't?". It's just that I also see a lot of people claim "You knew what you were getting into" without taking into account how the game has progressed thus far. It's easy to say "Oh they said X in a vaccum", but we don't play nor live in a vaccum.
EDIT: Oh .__. this has evolved while I was writing. MAN I'm slow -
06-23-2022, 08:31 AMMidareyukkiOh I have just the images for you, Ronso.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...82/unknown.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...06/unknown.png
"We spared no expense."
...yeah, they need to respect their own words. Especially when it comes to Hrothgar. -
06-23-2022, 08:31 AMVahlnirWell, they definitely continue to nail #3, just not in a good way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Midareyukki
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06-23-2022, 08:35 AMKelevI was amazed all right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vahlnir
I expected nothing, and was still, somehow, disappointed.
-Kelly -
06-23-2022, 08:47 AMSturmChurroA lot of my posts are literally just hyperbole or sarcasm. Maybe I just assume that people can pick it out easier. Especially when I have been an ardent complainer of hrothgar/viera since their launch.. Then again, I have fantasiad so much that my avatar is only recognizable when I am playing my Au Ra. Luckily, I have already gotten past the angry stage. I still hope they fix the races, but I have serious doubts they ever will. I still post in support of them fixing them regardless - Yes, I prefer the word "fix" or "update" in regards to the hrothgar/viera situation, rather than "finish" (explained many times).Quote:
Originally Posted by Midareyukki
The thing is hrothgar didn't really make their voices heard until, briefly, they were noticed during the hairstyle fiasco. Now they are back to seemingly being ignored. Male viera supporters were MUCH more vocal, and relentless, for their inclusion. Now, granted, male viera aren't really niche like hrothgar are. On top of that male viera, I'm pretty sure, are quite popular in Japan. Hrothgar are neither very popular in the west or east, as far as I am aware. Quite a bit less popular in Japan, if I recall. On top of that, while there may be, now, a quite vocal backlash from hrothgar players, obviously not much has come of it. For that matter, a lot of people I remember saying they unsubbed or were unsubbing are still subbed. Thing is though, even if many hrothgar players did unsub, I think Yoshida probably sees it as negligible considering the population and play habits.
I do constantly advocate, on these forums, for quality changes to the game. It's crazy to think that SE saw these hairs, and thought it was alright to just release it like this, but, frankly, quality seems to be going down across the board. -
06-23-2022, 10:07 AMreivaxeNot really. Every misstake and misstep with Hrothgar was built into the foundation when they were designing them. From YP telling the team to not worry about making hair fit them to the very concept.Quote:
Originally Posted by Midareyukki
What did people cry for other than Viera? Playable Lupin, aka Wolf Headed Highlanders. This is why we got a beast race, people wanted it and YP wanted it.
What did YP do? Look for the WORSE male rig in the game to make a "better" version of that body shape and give it a cat head, even though we "have" a cat race.
WoW devs give Orcs back relief because people hated being hunched, YP runs right into it ... making the texture stretching problems of the Roe-Bro rig very noticeable despite having a smaller frame.
Devote a ton of design budget on the fur and fur pattern memory ish when males normally go full covered, meaning they have to basically be shirtless to show off their patterns.
Were NEVER designed with the thought of changing hair in mind ... in a game where "Head stuff" is a major side of customization, as there's nothing you can do to change your body shape. Result? They made 4 heads that are soo different that it makes it's even harder to go back and make shared hair for them.
EVERY choice was a fumble, everything a misstep. They shoulda designed for the game they had, don't go full beast heads if you can't do it right. Bless Cat Race woulda been the best route head-wise.
It's not lazy, it's being boxed into a corner by your own poorly thought out choices. Nothing the devs do is lazy, they clearly care a lot, even if people aren't happy with everything they do.
They've already HAD to cut corners to support Viera and Hrothgar's effery. At this point in the expac, there should be a new in game reward hairstyle for all normal races. What did we get though? Nothing but updates for these 2 races AND LATER a mog female only hair attached to an NPC glam.Quote:
we'll see them cut corners on other races or other content.
Anyone whining about EW not having as many unique gear set designs so far? Remember that they have more character body types to support now, and they're also making a graphics update AND they're making Female Hrothgar. Man power doesn't just come outta no where.
A lot of the male's problems just naturally shouldn't be expected on the females. We have 2 full new races to look at, neither Viera nor Au Ra have both genders made from the same base race's body type. So Body wise, I expect them to be a taller version of literally ANY non-Femroe female. Hunch? Design wise that's a non-starter for females seeing as anything with boobs being hunched is a pain in the butt to animate/ design for/ model for and looks unappealing af so that's not happening. Heads? Outside lala, every female in this game has far less face diversity than their male counterparts.Quote:
That's the thing, isn't it? :T
I hope they've finally seen what the Hrothgar playerbase and the rest of the community thinks about their methods. Not just for the males, but so that female Hrothgar doesn't get thrown into the drain before release.
But given how Male Viera were released, my hopes are in the pipe with the rest of the race.
The biggest question would be hair ... seeing as they're NOW giving the males hair, it would stand to reason that they would take sharing hair into consideration for the females so that it doesn't look janked.
I think you all are confusing some basic things.Quote:
Originally Posted by SturmChurro
Hrothgar were never planned to have SHARED hair, hair that other races have. They were also not designed to be able to change their own hair outside of $10 potions. The plan was to add new heads with unique Hrothgar "Manes" and have people pay $10 to potion to them.
They actively had to change the shape of the heads for some of the faces to make this new shared hair system work.
So yeah, they were supposed to get "Hrothgar hair" that you pay $10s for, like the Stubble face for mids. They heard what people wanted and tried to make the shared hair system work instead. -
06-23-2022, 11:02 AMSturmChurroYeah, perhaps initially after launch they did think racial specific hairs would work, but, obviously, considering the recent official reply from Yoshida on how these hairs would take significantly longer, I feel like that's the actual reason why: it would be too much work. Shared hairs are easier to implement and they were supposed to appease people wanting them. Why Yoshida was "surprised" there was such backlash over the hrothgar hairs.Quote:
Originally Posted by reivaxe
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06-23-2022, 11:11 AMVahlnirI think he still would have gotten crap for them even if he left the ears on, but I do think that the removal of the ears was unnecessary fuel for the fire. Leaving them intact would have helped the situation, at least a little bit. Like I said before, they made MORE work for themselves by removing the ears for absolutely no reason. Especially since they had to stretch the "karen" hair which made it look like Voldemort was hiding on the other side of a Hrothgar's head. This isn't Harry Potter, dev team.Quote:
Originally Posted by SturmChurro
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06-23-2022, 11:30 AMDBriggs304
They need to work on content that is sustainable/replayable first before worrying about ears.
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06-23-2022, 11:56 AMreivaxeSame thing happened with Viera, they were supposed to only get race hair.Quote:
Originally Posted by SturmChurro
There's also the fact that they made that choice (ONLY Race hair for Viera, no changeable Hrothgar hair but new manes and "faces" for them to potion to) waaaay BEFORE they decided to add in the missing genders. IMO it was THAT choice that made that path too hard. It may not be too much to add in, after years, 4 new Viera race hairstyles and 4 Hrothgar manes that are custom fitted & locked to their face/ not useable by other faces. Base Hrothgar manes are ... basic, they don't even have highlights. But adding in Male Viera and Female Hrothgar literally 2xs the amount of new, custom hair they would have to make.
It becomes far more logical to just make the shared hairs work on these races at that point and scrap the idea of unique, racial hair when you gotta do it for both genders of both races. There's also the years of people begging for shared hair and changeable Hrothgar hair to take into account. Plans can change, this is a living game ... it's never done. These races were never meant to have the counterparts when they were being made, any plans they had for them before deciding to add them can understandably be changed. -
06-23-2022, 11:59 AMMidareyukkiA race is sustainable content, though. You can't even access stuff without making a character.Quote:
Originally Posted by DBriggs304
See, you had me until the fantasia bit. That we wouldn't have shared hair is fine, a lot of people want race-exclusive hair since stuff wouldn't otherwise look good on a lion face.Quote:
Originally Posted by reivaxe
But if that's the model they're going with, despite the fact that no other race had to buy fantasias to do it, then wow Square Enix is ten times worse than I ever thought. And I had to endure All the Bravest!
Like, I know they're not that good. The CEO wants NFTs, and Tabata was fired unfairly. But let it be clear: if that was their intention, then that's just predatory. If no other race had to go through it, then yeah, it's discrimination.
Ehhh, I'm detecting a little bias there. You really think they won't be hunched over femroes? Do you really? :^)Quote:
Originally Posted by reivaxe
Ok but no really, considering how Hrothgar are made at the moment, I do think they will be femroes. Like, who knows, they'll break the mold. Don't let that be an indication of much.
Also, stuff being unappealing is to be expected.
I don't think people are understanding the situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by SturmChurro
A) We KNOW it would take time to make Race-exclusive hair. Not just to make the 3D model, but design it to begin with.
B) We KNOW that just converting stuff over is easier, albeit still a mess to go through.
The issue isn't there, though. The issue was them converting stuff in such a shoddy way and picking the absolute worst ones. That is why he had such a backlash.
The rest I can say is just... "I hope he understands people who play Hrothgar do take the game seriously and that we don't want to be discriminated. We understand it's hard, but after so much crap aimed at us, we've had enough. And that sentiment is valid and understandable. You can't just expect a portion of the playerbase that's felt miserable for the past 3 years because a) the devs ignore it and b) the community trashes it, to not feel absolutely gutted when the only content we asked for is presented to us like we're a laughing stock." -
06-23-2022, 12:05 PMXiRonno no theres plenty to do in the game. 5 minutes to press a button to keep preexisting ears on hrothgars heads to just clip thru new hairs will not delay any new content do you people seriously believe the people designing new character customization options are also in charge of battle mapping and dungeon design?Quote:
Originally Posted by DBriggs304
Why is it every time a hrothgar asks "you guys remember we exist yet" some non-hrothgar players lose their minds and think the game will get delayed on new content? They design new shit every patch for 6 races, 7 since we KNOW viera will get every new hair option, it will not kill them to make that same thing work on hrothgar.
Hrothgar got nothing, not a damn thing for the entire duration of shb and shb did not suffer a derth of content, do not act like the loss of ultimate was hrothgars fault when literally nothing good happened for hrothgar the whole expansion they were introduced in. -
06-23-2022, 12:13 PMXiRonGirl you know hrothgals aint gonna hunch that would require any female in this game to have a different body type in this game lmao.Quote:
Originally Posted by Midareyukki
We can assume two things about hrothgals.
1) They will be same size as hrothmen bc the Bozjan murals depict fh being only slightly shorter than the writer copout femroe, and mh are only slightly shorter than femroe
2) They will not hunch because "we heard your complaints so fh will actually look good while mh are stuck with a hunch for no reason please understand removing the hunch from a jerryrigged roe spine is so hard :,(". Also they want to appeal to straight boys, ie, female miqote players, and so fh will have to be uguu kawaii and just barely bestial in any capacity.
On the subject of hunching they need to remove the hunch. It has 0 reasom to exist, hrothgar dont have animal feet so why woukd they have issues standing properly? -
06-23-2022, 12:28 PMMidareyukki
I just want to direct people to the Hrothgar Feedback thread I keep mentioning.
I know I'm being a nag with it, and idk the extent people agree with it. But I made it by consolidating what was said by many people. So I do want to make some things clear:
- Hrothgar players aren't blaming the development team inherently. We just want someone to own up to what happened. The situation isn't sustainable, it's currently harming the development of the game and the enjoyment people have with this race. Either someone in the team isn't being honest and just doesn't want to do something too complicated. Or the development team's leaders have given up or feel like the race has become too much. Or they don't have any funding, time or resources, in which case the fault lies on the people above. There are so many factors and so many people involved that the fault is fuzzy and you can't target specific people. Nor do we want to, given how dangerous JP's work culture is.
- It's not about the blame. It's about how this isn't working out and that someone needs to do something about it. We're not the ones making the game, they are. And if they aren't the ones to blame, then they need to organize themselves. "This isn't working for these players, we need to do something. If not content, then at least a proper answer."
- We know it takes time to make any piece of content. Or at least, I personally do from my own experience. I can at least hazard a guess. But just because it's hard and time-consuming, it doesn't mean it's impossible. This is a team known for allocating its time as well as they can. We just want time allocated for us.
- We know this race isn't well done. Call it unfinished or faulty, the point is that the way it's done is harming how future stuff will be made for it. We're just asking for them to address it.
- We are aware what their paradigm was. But that doesn't mean it has to be. What was decided before can change, and has changed.
- We aren't mad at them for not giving us racial-exclusive stuff. Some people will always be mad, some people will always be happy. What we aren't okay with is how shoddy and how many corners keep being cut to address us. Even if other races had cut corners, Hrothgar is having too many.
- The outrage comes from years of feeling mistreated, and then seeing the level of quality presented. It wasn't good. To some people it may have been the lack of racial exclusivity, but the common factor to every complaint was the quality.
- Yoshida's surprise is understandable... on that it shows disconnect.
We understand our race is the most complex of all. But we love it. Yet it's hard to continue doing so when it feels the development team doesn't want us to like what they do.
I know not many people are willing to be patient. I personally am, I just want quality assurance and respect. That is all.
Please read the 5th post of the Feedback Thread. -
06-23-2022, 12:42 PMMidareyukkiCarrying the whole weight of the Bozja content on their backs, obviously.Quote:
Originally Posted by XiRon
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06-23-2022, 10:39 PMDoc_SeraphAye kupo probably <3Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazhar
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06-23-2022, 11:46 PMRaim
Don't remove the hunch. Just do what I keep saying and make it a simple toggle option in the Aesthetician for those who wish to keep it. It can't be 'that' hard to implement. And don't give me this crap about how they would take forever to redo the model animations. We already have standing Hrothgar emotes. We have standing Hrothgar in cutscenes and walking in cutscenes at times. They definitely have the animations for if they wanted to make them fully upright. The only problem might be combat animations, but they can keep the beastlike posture for that if they insist. Secondly, they need to have staff sit down and actually explain the entire process of adding in things like new hairstyles and why it takes so much longer or is so much more difficult for them than 'other people' making them. Have Yoshida write up the process of it so we at least know why they are struggling to do something that at first seems like it would be easy for a programmer.
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06-23-2022, 11:55 PMKazharThey probably won't do this. The amount of character creation options seems to be limited to a fixed number. Probably to prevent the character packets from getting too large. And AFAIK they never increased the size, not even for the new races.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raim
So they will probably say that if we want a hunch toggle, they'd have to remove another option. Or add that option for everyone. -
06-24-2022, 01:48 AMAyuhraI really hope they fix this as part of future proofing the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazhar
Once the female Hrothgar are in I will happily accept no more races if it means fixing character creation and getting more customization options across the board. -
06-24-2022, 03:30 AMCatwhoAn even easier option would be to add a non-hunch stance via changepose, for idle. For years races had unique idle stances. Giving Hrothguys the option to just, you know, stand up straight while not in battle would take the absolute minimum amount of effort, compared to recoding every single emote. And it's something they could add in by patch 6.2 or 6.3, not the 7.X series.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazhar
Re, the missing ears: I'm usually pretty charitable toward the dev team but even I think that was insulting. Just tweak the frigging hair rigging for that one race if you can't get the ears to play right. -
06-24-2022, 06:37 AMSturmChurroYeah, and I was quite active in the male viera thread saying I don't think they should release male viera yet, prior to 'fixing' female viera and male hrothgar. I'm sorry female hrothgar wanters, but their inclusion will only be bad for the game, unless they somehow figure out how to completely overhaul how they fit gear, and everything else.. We will likely be looking at even less customization options than before, for something even more niche than male hrothgar! A race counterpart a couple people might play. I'm all for options, but at the expense of everyone else SUCKS.Quote:
Originally Posted by reivaxe
That's because it most likely would have been too much work for them to want to convert even the shared hair styles properly. If I remember right, that's even what he said. It's why they amputated hrothgar ears. Though, as people say, in doing so, they might have made more work for themselves in the process. As for the choices of hairs, there has got to be some sort of logic to their choices, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Midareyukki
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06-24-2022, 06:58 AMreivaxeI ... I don't know what you thought this was.Quote:
Originally Posted by Midareyukki
Hroth couldn't change hair without paying $10 ALL throughout ShB. It was ALWAYS the intention that Hrothgar's hair was a part of their CC, it allowed them to make very different heads without having to make their hair look good on each face. People have been b*^*^in at them about that for years, it's part of the reason they went outta their way to make shared hair work on them. Now people are throwing a fit again, so they asked for a final bit of feedback. The options are unique Hrothgar hair that's VERY rare (coming in between large spans of time) and VERY few in number (This is a game that gives normal races 6-8 hairs an expac MAX ... could easily mean 1 every expac) or go the shared hair route, and try to make that work.
Race made from poor logic and mistakes.
Yes, I really think that. They're not giving females with boobs a hunch. And no bais, the game has 2 whole races to look at. Neither race 1:1 copies the body types of the gender of the same race.Quote:
Ehhh, I'm detecting a little bias there. You really think they won't be hunched over femroes? Do you really? :^)
FV are shorter, fixed Elezen ... MV are taller, updated Male Miqote.
Male Au Ra are taller, fixed Elezen ... Female Au Ra are shorter, updated Female Miqote/ Middies.
Hrothgar are shorter, fixed Roebros ... fill in the blank. My guess is taller, updated Highlander or the Queen's body from Bozja (which is a mix of Female Viera and Female Au Ra proportion/ shape wise)
How niche they are is completely dependent on how they're designed. Make them look like the dudes-but-with-boobs that the woke people on twitter (who REALLY want to challenge gender norms to feel special) keep pushing, even though we know the arvg person wants no part of that? Yup, a bunch of time and effort to please like 3 people and make something less popular than Femroe.Quote:
Originally Posted by SturmChurro
Make them look like some amount more-furry, taller Mithra as seen in the queen's artbook art and murals? Easily more popular than the dudes, at least, and could make a decent fanbase.
Regardless of how many people whine about Au Ra, the females are hella popular and show that a few people online crying don't speak for the majority.
Anyway, it's not a matter of talking about it at this point. They're coming regardless of what effects they have on the reg dev time, so the time to warn against that is looong gone. -
06-24-2022, 07:02 AMXiRonThen they should let ears clip like every damn thing in the game already does. My feet clip thru unlevel surfaces, Runar hair clips thru 80% of chestpieces bc of stupid collars.Quote:
Originally Posted by SturmChurro
The CORRECT reason they chose 5 crappy hairstyles is because they already did it for viera. Why did they force hrothgar to be left out an extra four months when this was their decision? Hell if I know.
The sole good hairstyle hrothgar got, Snow, was a fluke because they had to consider whether a precious viera might ever fantasia and gosh it would sure suck for them to lose a hairstyle they paid mogstation bucks for.
A more cynical (but, based on their lame "its so hard" excuse, also correct) reading is they decided terrible options because they KNEW the community would hate them amd this would give them a perfect excuse to trod out the now-just-glue old horse of "hrothgar hard pls understamd" and thereby not have to work on them again until 3 minutes before 7.1 drops in 2ish years. Expect both viera genders to get the next 6.2 hair but hrothgar to get jack. -
06-24-2022, 07:24 AMZanarkand-RonsoIf they had started since Shadowbringers and gave us a couple in between long wait periods like every 2-3 patches, which means maybe up to 5 new hairs since release, with plans to do more into Endwalker and beyond.Quote:
Originally Posted by reivaxe
Id be 100% ok with this. Because then we Hrothgar Players (I have an Alt, as a reminder) would have these hopefully Cool Unique hairstyles, and they wouldn't have these dumb issues. They would be made specifically for the Hrothgar for their unique heads.
You can say Using old hair is less work and might come out faster...but at the cost of...yknow, the nonsense we are dealing with now.
Id rather wait longer for something to be done RIGHT, then a short period and get crap. -
06-24-2022, 07:27 AMSturmChurroYeah, but do you play your alt much? I have an alt too, and I haven't done ANYTHING on it in the past 2 or maybe 3 years except log on to fantasia or do events. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso
I find it questionable if waiting longer will actually yield anything good. As hrothgar already waited three years, and got those hairs.. A lot of the viera hairs don't even look that good for the long wait, with those gigantic foreheads..
Even if they made them not look like hulking monstrosities, they'd still be pretty niche, let's be honest. I seriously doubt that race counterpart will be worth the consequences towards customization options, gear, etc. for everyone else. Male hrothgar will probably end up being the ones who suffer the most for female hrothgar inclusion, for that matter. Again, I don't think they should have released male viera either, yet. The only way it would be worthwhile is them miraculously making it easier to fit gear, add customization options, hair, etc.. by then.Quote:
Originally Posted by reivaxe
I don't think au ra are comparable to female hrothgar either. Unless you think they are going to literally just do miqo'te 2.0 where femhroth are more human than bestial. -
06-24-2022, 08:16 AMAzuriI got curious and checked how many hairstyles for normal races have we gotten since Shadowbringers. The answer is eleven. 11. Four of them are just NPC hairstyles, btw. I'm sorry but expecting five Hroth specific hairstyles in the same time period is kinda rich and your reaction only reinforces the point reivaxe is making. You'd really be looking at 1-2 unique hairstyles per expansion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso
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06-24-2022, 08:22 AMreivaxeWhat coulda been means nothing, and "Long patches" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there given we have no reason to think that they would do anything more than 1 an expac, if that. Fact of the matter is that the Graphics team came to YP with their proposal on what they can do/ how they could find the resources to make Male Viera and Female Hrothgar just 6mts after the release of ShB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso
So from that moment on, everything was up in the air and subject to change. To me, it's clear that "spend resources making Viera only hair and more Hrothgar $10 heads/ manes, FOREVER" was one of the things chopped off because of that and in no small part because of the constant request for shared hair and not having to pay $10 to change your hair change.
Every hairstyle that the Male Viera were released with was time and money and resources that coulda went towards making unique female Viera hair ... I find it acceptable, personally. Every race would want more unique new hair, ultimately, but quantity is more important and no one wants to be left out of new content rewards. No problem with people feeling the other way, but I do warn against pie-in-the-sky outlooks. "Would I be willing to wait an entire expac to get just ONE hairstyle?" is the way I think it should be addressed, seeing as they were willing to make Viera/ Hrothgar wait over an entire expac to get ANY new hair options.
As someone whose wanted to play female Hrothgar since the reveal of Hrothgar, and is 100% gonna play them provided SE gives them an appealing design, I'd 100% prefer shared hair and I can only hope that they were designed with shared hair in mind. -
06-24-2022, 08:32 AMZanarkand-RonsoYes, I actually do. I log in everyday and do a few roulettes with him to level him up. After I get the Beast Tribe done on my main Im gonna take him through and Blitz the MSQ.Quote:
Originally Posted by SturmChurro
Then exclusively play him for a while, redoing fun content I enjoyed and leveling a couple of Jobs again.
I would find it weird that Im so gung-ho for the Hrothgar if I didnt play the Hrothgar Alt. Thats just me I guess.
What Im saying is, if an option where there way back in ShB to make these Unique Hairstyles for the Hrothgar, but the trade off is a longer period wait. I would say Yes, 100% no question. Because they would take the proper time to make them, the ear issue wouldnt be a thing, and we'd have maybe at least 5 new hairs or 6 or 7 by now.
But they decided to drag their feet, and then just try and use old hair. Which are just...BAD. -
06-24-2022, 08:35 AMXiRonYeah I totally agree people asking for unique crap at the cost of ingame rewards everyone else can use is wildly stupid. I want the crap I earn in game, much less pay for on the shop, to work for my race. I do not want another whole expansion of seeing everyone get new stuff to enjoy and then they be like "Well for 7.0 hrothgar get 1 (UNO) new mane...with a braid on the LEFT this time" like no thats appalling. Also a constant complaint and part of the reason hrothgar and viera wanted hair updates is everyone looking the same and 1 hair per expansion is absolutely not combat that.Quote:
Originally Posted by reivaxe
I want the 6.2(x) hair to work for hrothgar. I want every new hair hereon out to work for hrothgar. If it can be earned it should be usable by every race and "hrothgar hard unique headshape ubuuuu" is not an acceptable excuse. And I really wish people would stop asking for unique stuff they had ALL of shb to live up to "unique hairstyles" promised to viera and hrothgar and failed colossally just let me us my Modern Aesthetes like every other race.
"No expense spared" Boy I sure hope so Yoshi.