They Should Add An Official Damage Meter With One Condition

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Originally Posted by hagare

The good argument against it is that people are dicks.
And I say this as someone who wants it so I can check my rotation performance

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Yes, and they will be regardless of features put into the game.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

At this point, I'm inclined to believe that Yoshi's true reason for saying that is simply because they don't want to waste time & resource dealing with the reports regarding the matter so they just took a measure to completely shut off the subject.

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That's pretty much it honestly.
Legit i'd like a personal damage etc to see aside looking at the battle logs. I also know how you can have an idea of how much damage through phases\moves and enrage. Even for casual content it's not hard to see but i just like seeing numbers and see overall performance, nothing special.

But of all that is just opening a big can of worms that is not worth the headache to everyone

What's wrong with the current official battle logs that's been in the game since launch? They tell you everything you wish to know.

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Originally Posted by Capstone

The trickle down effect of Yoshida's stance is that casual players are often very aggressive when offered basic advice on how to improve and, by extension, make the group's experience better. You can't ask anyone to do better in this game without releasing the "you don't pay my sub" kraken.

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That's because they are not playing the game to optimize. They are playing the game to have fun, relax or enjoy the story. Just because you play for a different reason than they do doesn't mean that you should push that onto them. The only content where they need to be concerned about optimizing is fights with an enrage and advice in those fights is reasonable.

There could be any number of other reasons why somebody is not playing the way you think they should. It might be intentional because they disagree with you, they might be having a bad day and have just made a mistake or they are just relaxing leveling an alt job they don't normally play.

I've never seen anyone say "you don't pay my sub" seriously.

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Originally Posted by Capstone

Is it harassment I wonder when someone's application to a static is rejected because the 3rd party data collected about their character reveals quite plainly that they are dead weight? How about when the PF group disbands because even though nobody died enrage still didn't get cleared?

So much of this discussion is quite clearly not "people will use dps numbers to harass others" but actually "people will use dps numbers to harass me"

For all of the turbocasuals gleefully going "sucks to be you because Yoshida agrees with meeeeeeee" it really makes me think:

If anyone thinks that casuals can't be toxic about the fact that their damage is hidden, all I can say is think again. Being dead weight and proud of it or refusing to improve when constructive feedback is provided is toxic behavior. Making everyone else's life miserable absolutely counts. And we have also seen weilding the ToS as a weapon as certain sites have gone on mass reporting brigades of streamers.

Anyway, I've given up on doing roulettes without at a minimum the tank and healer being raid buddies, if not the whole stack being premade ideally. If I didn't need tomes for the tier I would skip them entirely, given that option. The trickle down effect of Yoshida's stance is that casual players are often very aggressive when offered basic advice on how to improve and, by extension, make the group's experience better. You can't ask anyone to do better in this game without releasing the "you don't pay my sub" kraken. That's what dps meters are about. It was never about harassment.

But worry not. If anyone is worried that high-end players will harass you about bad damage, you can rest easy. They don't want to play with you any more than you want to play with them, and to a very large degree they have the agency to ensure that outcome.

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Well that kind of attitude is pretty much why Yoshi does not want to add official parsers in game. If people respond like this without one added, imagine if it was added...

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Originally Posted by hagare

The good argument against it is that people are dicks.

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This is relevant only if parsers would cause people to be dicks when they otherwise wouldn't, or that blinding people to their performance would somehow stop them from questioning others' performance when shit hits the fan (e.g., a DPS check is failed). Yet there is no evidence to suggest either is the case.

(In reality, it merely tends to shift the question merely from "What can we do to improve it" (locked behind these layers of blindfolds first from no sanctioned data and second from even eyeballed knowledge being threatenable with reports) to, first, what can be improved. It simply adds a prior, and arguably far more humiliating, step to the original one, or replaces solutions with disbandment.)

(Can't get called out for having potentially parsed if your solution to the problem is just to replace everyone and roll the dice again, after all. At least it's not "discriminatory" or likely to be reportable if you waste 8 players' time instead of helping the one in need. Modern grey-area solutions for modern blindfolded-under-threat-of-ban problems.)

A possible restriction could be to only have it active on extreme and up difficulty levels, maybe target dummies aswell. I've always found it laughable that fflogs lists expert dungeons and alliance raids.

Otherwise I would say the current solution works fine. Toxic idiots (hardcore and casual players alike) cant use it to be jerk and everyone else can use it responsibily. Console players just need one person in the group to occasionally upload and they have access to all the same info.

Yoshi has and will always be against parsers given he seen what it can cause given he was an avid WoW player. He has never once changed his stance on it and I honestly do not know why people keep trying to change his mind.

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Originally Posted by Zachia

If people didn't abuse dps meter add-ons in other MMORPG's

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Please exemplify? I've seen far more toxicity over throughput in this game than across 13 years of WoW, in GW2, in NWN, B&S, etc., all games with performance metrics.

At best, the toxicity in XIV simply sometimes gets hidden by parties just disbanding when they get someone clearly underperforming/underprepared, rather than daring to offer advice on anything even tangentially to do with throughput for fear of being called out for parsing -- essentially wasting 7 extra people's time in requeuing, of all things, instead of even helping someone out. As someone who likes helping out in learning parties, etc., that state of things really sucks.


Heck, the last time I've had someone pulling well under their own weight in M+ (over in WoW), we stayed for a couple extra keys on our alts, postponing play on our mains, until he'd gotten a feel for how to manage throughput as melee even when the tank needs to kite (due to the Necrotic Affix). He didn't have a parser downloaded at the moment and just asked us to post numbers, for boss and overall, after each checkpoint, so we did, and gave class-specific pointers where we could while between fights (and on any wipes) and between runs.

Being informed =/= Being toxic. There's no part of being an ass, even, that's facilitated or encouraged by having a better grasp of the situation.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

That's because they are not playing the game to optimize. They are playing the game to have fun, relax or enjoy the story. Just because you play for a different reason than they do doesn't mean that you should push that onto them. The only content where they need to be concerned about optimizing is fights with an enrage and advice in those fights is reasonable.

There could be any number of other reasons why somebody is not playing the way you think they should. It might be intentional because they disagree with you, they might be having a bad day and have just made a mistake or they are just relaxing leveling an alt job they don't normally play.

I've never seen anyone say "you don't pay my sub" seriously.

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No one seriously asks for high end optimization either. When I see someone only use cure 1 and medica in lvl 70 content I can clearly see that they dont give a fck about anyone else. They're just selfish. No one seriously cares if your buffs are always drifting a little bit but if you never use them, that just shows you dont care. What people like the person you quoted want is for everyone to try their best because this is a teamgame. And a lot of people are not and that ranges from someone having a bad day and messing up mechanics left and right all the way down to functionally being afk. To be fair however you dont need a parser to see that most of the time.

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Originally Posted by CosmicCoqui

Well that kind of attitude is pretty much why Yoshi does not want to add official parsers in game. If people respond like this without one added, imagine if it was added...

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Except that there is nothing wrong with declining someone's application for your static if their logs clearly show that they don't meet the static's expecations. Nobody is entitled to a spot in a static just because they applied and it's well within the static leader's right to decline people based on whatever criteria they deem fit. Even if it's some as arbitrary as wanting a Hroth only static.
Nor is there anything wrong with disbanding a party or kicking the person that is holding a party back with their performance when they can't reach enrage despite nobody dying because believe it or not, nobody is entitled to other sticking with them in a party if they can't perform properly for the content they're doing.

And there are enough people out there who use the ToS as a shield while being passive-aggressive. It absolutely happens and it is the most common form of toxicity in FFXIV.
I don't think that anyone should perform at their best in DF content of all things and I rarely see the extreme cases of someone being auto attack afk, not healing nor dpsing, not using aoe at all etc. but preferring to run with friends instead of trying their luck with DF is also -again- completely within their rights.
Because isn't that exactly what people that like to contribute more always get told when this comes up? "Then just run in your uber premade"?

So why is it something negative if people get declined a static spot or kicked from a party because they are not performing at a level the content requires?
Why is it something negative that someone prefers to use DF only in (partly) premades because they don't want to deal with too much randomness in terms of gameplay?
Yes, it could've been worded differently. Point still stands: it's within their rights. Their party/ static/ premade, their rules.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Being informed =/= Being toxic. There's no part of being an ass, even, that's facilitated or encouraged by having a better grasp of the situation.

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And people like to ignore that lack of informations causes finger-pointing in the entirely wrong direction while the person getting accused is completely defenseless against that. Having to leave isn't a defense by the way.
Just from last week of PF'ing (had my clears, just wanted to kill stuff for fun and help parties get their clears as well) I have two examples of this happening and in both cases it ended up with the party disbanding because it was impossible to shut the people up that blamed the wrong person and nobody wanted to stay in a party when they got wrongly accused of something either.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

There is an unbelievably easy fix to this, though. Make it against the rules to ask for DPS numbers or discriminate based on them, ban people who do, boom problem solved. You know, what they already do, and why no one asks for dps numbers from the ALREADY AVAILABLE tools...

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that's not a fix because they'll take recruitment outside the game where they can bully people all day long about their dps parse.

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Originally Posted by forsakee

Sure thing I've never seen anyone post any dps meters from any content ingame let alone a normal 4man. Plus anyone comparing dps in sastasha is a idiot and has no understanding about the game thus you can just laugh and ignore their ignorant comment "assuming it actually happened"

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I reread the thread and wanted to reply to this.

In WOW the very first dungeon is a place called Ragefire Chasm. Lost count of the number of times I have seen dps meters spammed..and thats their equivalent of Sastasha.

That you have never seen it happen doesnt mean it doesnt happen. It does. Frequently.

In brief, my earlier comments stand. The potential for abuse, misuse and the resulting offensive, and at times obscene, language and behaviour is exhibit one as to why Yoshi's stance on this matter is unequivocal and correct in every aspect.

There is a official Damage Meter called Combatlog, i dont know what all the fuss is about.

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Originally Posted by Kirundo

Yes, and they will be regardless of features put into the game.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

This is relevant only if parsers would cause people to be dicks when they otherwise wouldn't, or that blinding people to their performance would somehow stop them from questioning others' performance when shit hits the fan (e.g., a DPS check is failed). Yet there is no evidence to suggest either is the case.

(In reality, it merely tends to shift the question merely from "What can we do to improve it" (locked behind these layers of blindfolds first from no sanctioned data and second from even eyeballed knowledge being threatenable with reports) to, first, what can be improved. It simply adds a prior, and arguably far more humiliating, step to the original one, or replaces solutions with disbandment.)

(Can't get called out for having potentially parsed if your solution to the problem is just to replace everyone and roll the dice again, after all. At least it's not "discriminatory" or likely to be reportable if you waste 8 players' time instead of helping the one in need. Modern grey-area solutions for modern blindfolded-under-threat-of-ban problems.)

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And giving them parsers is giving them more things to be dicks about.
Let's not weaponize dicks even more yeah.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

I seriously don't get why people think this when high-end statics already filter with FFLogs lol?? A lot of players also kick you from weeklies if your logs look shit. This has been a thing since early Stormblood, if not late Heavensward (when they introduced cross-world PF).

It's not like you're preventing anything when it's already in FF14.

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They can prevent wide-spread bullying by blocking any demands for parse logs being added in game. it's literally that simple.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

I'm personally against a damage meter not because of toxicity (shit argument), but because all it does is push players into approaching encounters in a highly one-dimensional way, which is exactly why Savage fights are such a snoozefest these days because it's designed EXACTLY to the parameters of the parsebrains. Official damage meters will cause even the casuals to tunnel on DPS and whine and cry whenever they lose more than one GCD of uptime.

Savage is literally so boring now even during progression because melee uptime is given to you for free. And I'm 100% sure it's designed this way because both NA and JP players care too much about DPS.

This isn't a toxicity thing, it's a "let's dumb down our game so that only one metric matters" thing.

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If you actually think it's not a toxicity thing, then you're even more Naïve than i thought. You need only look at games like WoW and ESO where parse logs are prevalent to see the amount of toxicity and bullying that it invites.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

I'm playing tank this tier and I genuinely feel like my mitigation is completely useless EVEN in Ultimate (DSR), outside of tankbusters. Bosses barely auto, my mit on party members don't mean jackshit because healing can be solved completely with healer oGCDs, etc. My mind is focused on optimizing damage even in Ultimate, on what in literally every other game would be considered a support with utility (tanking, aggro etc.)

(This is also why I'm having way more fun in Lost Ark compared to literally everything in FF14 below Ultimate because there are a LOT of things that all simultaneously matter: dodging, teamwork, DPS, using battle items, etc.)

IF they were to implement a damage meter, I want metrics other than DPS to be shown as well, like Lost Ark's MVP screen. Damage mitigated should be a thing on such a meter, along with eHP healed (i.e. HPS adjusted for mitigation and overhealing), mechanics successfully executed (track across a lockout), etc.

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The only reason most of the people asking for parses want logs specifically for DPS. you know darn well that if they added parses without DPS checks, these same people would piss and moan about it because they only want parses so they can gatekeep endgame content and block less skilled players from completing content.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

I reread the thread and wanted to reply to this.

In WOW the very first dungeon is a place called Ragefire Chasm. Lost count of the number of times I have seen dps meters spammed..and thats their equivalent of Sastasha.

That you have never seen it happen doesnt mean it doesnt happen. It does. Frequently.

In brief, my earlier comments stand. The potential for abuse, misuse and the resulting offensive, and at times obscene, language and behaviour is exhibit one as to why Yoshi's stance on this matter is unequivocal and correct in every aspect.

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I lost count how often PF groups would disband over one person failing mechanics or hitting enrage. By your own logic let's remove enrage or any mechanics so you won't be harassed

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Originally Posted by Kirundo

So you are telling me that if you can be harassed over something in the game, this should not be a part of the game? How about we actually just deal with the people harassing you instead of getting rid of every potential feature that you can get harassed over.
I remind you that you can technically be harassed over your performance even without ACT, and how are we dealing with it? Removing features or reporting the player?

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or how about the devs not enable bullying by continuing to block any request for parse logs to be added. it doesn't matter how good your intentions are, people WILL abuse parse logs to bully and gatekeep content from those less skilled. So the answer is now and will forever remain NO

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Originally Posted by hagare

And giving them parsers is giving them more things to be dicks about.
Let's not weaponize dicks even more yeah.

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You can argue against literally every feature in the game with this logic
Let's remove iLvL, ability to lock PF groups based on completion, ability to check someones gear and melds because it "weaponizes dicks"!

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Originally Posted by Neoyoshi

What's wrong with the current official battle logs that's been in the game since launch? They tell you everything you wish to know.

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it's a chore using that for damage calculation but it is definitely the best thing to check actions and what's going on as well as crits but in no way i will use it to check my damage every session, especially when i have to scroll up all the time.
i am more baffled pvp board not only has your total damage against players but also damage taken and damage to other things.

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Originally Posted by Kirundo

I lost count how often PF groups would disband over one person failing mechanics or hitting enrage. By your own logic let's remove enrage or any mechanics so you won't be harassed

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Cases arent parallel.

As has been stated repeatedly,. the content has been tested and retested, with the confirmation that it can be, and has been completed, WITHOUT the need for a parser.

Still kind of blows my mind how terrified people are of numbers. Parsers aren't the issue, numbers are not the issue. The issue is that some use them as a way to harass others.

Solution: Report said people and move along with your day.

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Originally Posted by Jettinson

That's pretty much it honestly.
Legit i'd like a personal damage etc to see aside looking at the battle logs. I also know how you can have an idea of how much damage through phases\moves and enrage. Even for casual content it's not hard to see but i just like seeing numbers and see overall performance, nothing special.

But of all that is just opening a big can of worms that is not worth the headache to everyone

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Exactly.

At any rate, overall I still prefer the current status quo of keeping the "don't ask, don't tell" policy. There's no point in combating either sides. Best to just kick silently if we find players we deem unworthy of the trouble and let them wonder why they're kicked from first place. That seems to be a fair deal. After all, "difference in playstyle" is a legit reason.

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Originally Posted by Jettinson

i am more baffled pvp board not only has your total damage against players but also damage taken and damage to other things.

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It's an afterthought content. Everybody's are 3rd rate citizen in that mode. Apparently saying "Good Match!" is more toxic than knowing numbers. They even know that.

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Originally Posted by Kirundo

You can argue against literally every feature in the game with this logic
Let's remove iLvL, ability to lock PF groups based on completion, ability to check someones gear and melds because it "weaponizes dicks"!

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I'll pitch in: remove enmity order list. I hate seeing that DNC outperforms me, the sucky RPR!!!

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Originally Posted by Jason_Ashford

or how about the devs not enable bullying by continuing to block any request for parse logs to be added. it doesn't matter how good your intentions are, people WILL abuse parse logs to bully and gatekeep content from those less skilled. So the answer is now and will forever remain NO

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I argue that adding damage meter will NOT add any more bullying or harassment. Will some people use damage meter to harass? Yes. Would they have used literally anything else to harass right now? Also yes. Some people just triggered by ANYTHING. I have a teammate in overwatch that would get triggered by any comment on his gameplay from other teammates or opponents. And I mean ANY. He would harass and curse the person who dared to question his performance. And that same person would do the same in any other game with any tools given.

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

Still kind of blows my mind how terrified people are of numbers. Parsers aren't the issue, numbers are not the issue. The issue is that some use them as a way to harass others.

Solution: Report said people and move along with your day.

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still blows my mind that people don't seem to understand the concept that parses will be abused no matter how much you claim otherwise, and "reporting them" does not fix the problem when the parse itself enables players to bully others.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Cases arent parallel.

As has been stated repeatedly,. the content has been tested and retested, with the confirmation that it can be, and has been completed, WITHOUT the need for a parser.

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They are exactly parallel. The content was tested to be completed with a certain DPS number, not just being there in the fight, and that DPS number being quite tight most of the times

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Originally Posted by Kirundo

I argue that adding damage meter will NOT add any more bullying or harassment. Will some people use damage meter to harass? Yes. Would they have used literally anything else to harass right now? Also yes. Some people just triggered by ANYTHING. I have a teammate in overwatch that would get triggered by any comment on his gameplay from other teammates or opponents. And I mean ANY. He would harass and curse the person who dared to question his performance. And that same person would do the same in any other game with any tools given.

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spoken like someone who has never played WoW or ESO. Parsing absolutely enables widespread bullying and gatekeeping and pretending otherwise just makes you sound incredibly foolish. Parses legitimizes elitism and toxicity and no amount of reporting will ever fix the long term damage of allowing that kind of mentality to seep into the game.

Does it already exist to an extent? yes. there's no an MMO in the world that doesn't have elitists who bully and gatekeep content, but that doesn't mean we should make it easier for them.

DPS meter is totally irrelevant in dungeons and normal trials or raids, you can die, stand in fire, afk half of the fight and still get a clear.
But in savage/extreme fights where ONE underperforming dps will lead to all group being unable to clear content not having a way to identify that player is just unfair.

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Originally Posted by Jason_Ashford

spoken like someone who has never played WoW or ESO. Parsing absolutely enables widespread bullying and gatekeeping and pretending otherwise just makes you sound incredibly foolish. Parses legitimizes elitism and toxicity and no amount of reporting will ever fix the long term damage of allowing that kind of mentality to seep into the game.

Does it already exist to an extent? yes. there's no an MMO in the world that doesn't have elitists who bully and gatekeep content, but that doesn't mean we should make it easier for them.

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I dare you to find ANY group or raid in WoW party finder right now that would require you to have certain DPS amount.
And no, logs requirement for mythic raids is not DPS requirement but check that you didn't buy the clear.

Honestly people just gotta let the official dmg meter go.
Yoshi-P has probably been the most clear on this than anything else in regards to mods, and the answer is no.
Lost Ark had a similar situation when it was brought over to the West and people started asking for a damage meter and the game director gave basically the same answer as Yoshi-P.

We already have a parse software, lets just leave it at that.

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Originally Posted by Kirundo

DPS meter is totally irrelevant in dungeons and normal trials or raids, you can die, stand in fire, afk half of the fight and still get a clear.
But in savage/extreme fights where ONE underperforming dps will lead to all group being unable to clear content not having a way to identify that player is just unfair.

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"Unfair"? Lmfao, so if players start getting kicked for making one mistake and dying, what will your excuse be? Or when players are blocked from joining extreme/savage/ultimate tier content because their parse numbers don't meet your arbitrary standards? what then?

the whole purpose of prog parties is to LEARN the content. obsessing over numbers and kicking anyone who doesn't meet your arbitrary standards in dps is a toxic mentality, one that will NEVER be given endorsement in this game.

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Originally Posted by Jason_Ashford

"Unfair"? Lmfao, so if players start getting kicked for making one mistake and dying, what will your excuse be? Or when players are blocked from joining extreme/savage/ultimate tier content because their parse numbers don't meet your arbitrary standards? what then?

the whole purpose of prog parties is to LEARN the content. obsessing over numbers and kicking anyone who doesn't meet your arbitrary standards in dps is a toxic mentality, one that will NEVER be given endorsement in this game.

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Well, if you can't clear the content because one dude/duderino refuses to play properly then it's not exactly arbitrary.

That said a DPS meter wouldn't help when you're doing the content, it's better used outside to measure your performance.
Except for identifying who's the problem but tbh I think you can usually do that without a DPS meter if you're actually paying attention and I don't trust the average person to be responsible with that I think in most cases it'd turn into toxicity and harassment...
In the majority of cases too it's because someone is repeatedly dying over and over again, but not understanding your rotation and not having proper gear/ food buffs etc tends to go hand in hand with people who are a problem in that regard.
I've just never felt like I needed a DPS meter to see who the problem in the group is.

Hard no. This will only lead to more toxicity.

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Originally Posted by Jason_Ashford

"Unfair"? Lmfao, so if players start getting kicked for making one mistake and dying, what will your excuse be? Or when players are blocked from joining extreme/savage/ultimate tier content because their parse numbers don't meet your arbitrary standards? what then?

the whole purpose of prog parties is to LEARN the content. obsessing over numbers and kicking anyone who doesn't meet your arbitrary standards in dps is a toxic mentality, one that will NEVER be given endorsement in this game.

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What is your excuse for people getting kicked/leave the underperforming PF group right now? You are under a misconception that today people are all friendly but if they are given a damage meter then SUDDENLY they all start acting toxic.

PS And the standard is not arbitrary, it's set by the developers who designed the enrage timers.

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Originally Posted by Kirundo

You can argue against literally every feature in the game with this logic
Let's remove iLvL, ability to lock PF groups based on completion, ability to check someones gear and melds because it "weaponizes dicks"!

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so your proposal is, let's add more to it.
Sigh....... this is a good guy with a gun argument all over again

PS: another good argument against, just read the whole thread you made.

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Originally Posted by Jason_Ashford

"Unfair"? Lmfao, so if players start getting kicked for making one mistake and dying, what will your excuse be? Or when players are blocked from joining extreme/savage/ultimate tier content because their parse numbers don't meet your arbitrary standards? what then?

the whole purpose of prog parties is to LEARN the content. obsessing over numbers and kicking anyone who doesn't meet your arbitrary standards in dps is a toxic mentality, one that will NEVER be given endorsement in this game.

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What do you mean "start"? Toxic people have been doing this since day 1, parsers have nothing to do with people projecting their own insecurities.

Parsers don't create toxicity, toxic people will always find a way to be toxic (as is VERY evidenced by this community). There's no reason to be afraid of a troubleshooting tool because some people might use it as a way to be obnoxious, just like there's no reason to remove the inspect function for the same reason.

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Originally Posted by hagare

so your proposal is, let's add more to it.
Sigh....... this is a good guy with a gun argument all over again

PS: another good argument against, just read the whole thread you made.

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I respectfully disagree with the whole argument that these systems create toxicity. Toxic people create toxicity and nothing will change this except for reporting.

And what about the thread? We are having a civil conversation. Or you think that this is toxic?

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Originally Posted by Jason_Ashford

"Unfair"? Lmfao, so if players start getting kicked for making one mistake and dying, what will your excuse be? Or when players are blocked from joining extreme/savage/ultimate tier content because their parse numbers don't meet your arbitrary standards? what then?

the whole purpose of prog parties is to LEARN the content. obsessing over numbers and kicking anyone who doesn't meet your arbitrary standards in dps is a toxic mentality, one that will NEVER be given endorsement in this game.

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Am I missing some context here or do you think every PF is a prog party?

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Originally Posted by Kirundo

What is your excuse for people getting kicked/leave the underperforming PF group right now? You are under a misconception that today people are all friendly but if they are given a damage meter then SUDDENLY they all start acting toxic.

PS And the standard is not arbitrary, it's set by the developers who designed the enrage timers.

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so we have players who bully others and gatekeep content from lower skilled players, and to fix that you want to add a tool that will allow even more widespread bullying and gatekeeping? you say i'm the one under a misconception, but you have this delusion that adding parses will magically fix all the problems with PF parties and that we won't have an influx of toxic behavior. you cannot seriously be this naïve .

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Originally Posted by Roda

What do you mean "start"? Toxic people have been doing this since day 1, parsers have nothing to do with people projecting their own insecurities.

Parsers don't create toxicity, toxic people will always find a way to be toxic (as is VERY evidenced by this community). There's no reason to be afraid of a troubleshooting tool because some people might use it as a way to be obnoxious, just like there's no reason to remove the inspect function for the same reason.

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so your proposal is to add a tool that allows even more toxicity to enter the game? The second that parsing tools are added we will have a explosion of players complaining about being bullied and harassed for their parse numbers. the devs are *never* going to add a tool that will encourage further toxic elitism. it's time you open your eyes and see that what you want is simply never going to happen.