Summoner Needs to be buffed

The impression I get from these complaints feels like everyone's problem would be solved if:

-Dreadwyrm Trance requires 2 stacks before Astral Flow becomes Deathflare, similar to how you had to DT twice before summoning Bahamut at level 70 before the rework.
-Upon learning Phoenix, DT just immediately makes Astral Flow become Deathflare with the second cast being Rekindle.

So now it's objectively not a dps loss to hit level 80 at the cost of level 60 being flatter.

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Originally Posted by Atmaweapon510

-Dreadwyrm Trance requires 2 stacks before Astral Flow becomes Deathflare, similar to how you had to DT twice before summoning Bahamut at level 70 before the rework.
-Upon learning Phoenix, DT just immediately makes Astral Flow become Deathflare with the second cast being Rekindle.

So now it's objectively not a dps loss to hit level 80 at the cost of level 60 being flatter.

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Or just give Phoenix its Deathflare equivalent instead of needlessly nerfing level 60 (unless, of course, SMN really is overtuned from lv60 to lv69)?

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Originally Posted by RocciaSolida

Every job gets one at 50/60/70/80/90 but SMN is the only one that has this weird dps drop when acquiring a supposedly good trait

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Gonna keep mentioning it til the devs do something about it. SMN also has a DPS loss during the level 45 to 50 range when Emerald Carbuncle shifts into Garuda. A 400 potency single target attack shifting into a 100 potency AoE. It's only 5 levels but the point still stands.

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Originally Posted by Cithaerias_pyropina

Gonna keep mentioning it til the devs do something about it. SMN also has a DPS loss during the level 45 to 50 range when Emerald Carbuncle shifts into Garuda. A 400 potency single target attack shifting into a 100 potency AoE. It's only 5 levels but the point still stands.

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I think this one is more an issue of having no choice. There should be an added future benefit for cycling Garuda in over Ifrit, eventually strong enough to overcome that loss even in pure single-target fights (e.g., most serious content), but it should still be wholly a choice, much like Monk's Blitzes (the setup for a Lunar Blitz is stronger than a Solar Blitz, its alternative, but you need to cycle in both to get your pay-off later).

In that case, the addition of Garuda would at first do for SMN what [AoE] Bioblaster (over [ST] Drill) does for Machinist, and later give something you still need to cycle in, but should time to the best possible opportunity (per macrorotational cycle) to milk that AoE.

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Originally Posted by Cithaerias_pyropina

Gonna keep mentioning it til the devs do something about it. SMN also has a DPS loss during the level 45 to 50 range when Emerald Carbuncle shifts into Garuda. A 400 potency single target attack shifting into a 100 potency AoE. It's only 5 levels but the point still stands.

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Yes summoner get 2 nerfs during leveling .45-50
and lvl 80 with Phoenix .

Honestly it would make more sense to turn the Phoenix heal into a slightly less potency Death Flare with a debuff that adds a small heal to anyone that attacks the target.

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Originally Posted by Maxilor

Honestly it would make more sense to turn the Phoenix heal into a slightly less potency Death Flare with a debuff that adds a small heal to anyone that attacks the target.

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The easiest way for them would be to replace physick with the phoenix healing spell''stack spell'', and use and reduce the revelation animation to make it equivalent to the deathflare.
or completely delete the phénix excog, but that will be great to give utility to use physick, this spell is completely useless and its finally give it a real interest.

maybe jut me but should ifrit gemshine (ifrit attunement spell) need to have bigger potency? the titan and garuda attunement spell is fine because its instant and garuda has fast gcd thus less potency, but ifrit attunement being at 2.4-3 seconds is a bit... weak? the damage should be equivalent of BLM fire 4 with 3 astral fire at least for me.

From what I've seen I'd say phoenix needs major buffs to at least be on par with bahamut phase(or bahamut needs a nerf I guess), because it feels super bad to have to use phoenix. Also I generally don't think summoner DPS should get much of a buff. It's mobility and utility should leave it down with the ranged physical.

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Originally Posted by Drekor

(or bahamut needs a nerf I guess)

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If you want to take SMN from the second lowest DPS to the absolute worst DPS, this would do it.

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Originally Posted by Drekor

Also I generally don't think summoner DPS should get much of a buff. It's mobility and utility should leave it down with the ranged physical.

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Then summoner needs ALL cast times and melee restrictions removed. (And it'd still be low even for physical ranged DPS)

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Man, I wonder why so many people really seem to have it out for summoner and just want the job to be absolutely terrible...

I'll disregard any post mentioning "SMN's utility" by default.
1. the heals from Phoenix are a honey trap, you can't manipulate or use them when you need/want to
2. RDM has a better ressing potential in any case possible, deals more damage than SMN (yes, I know you can pad adds during the current extremes) and has a better heal that is also functional with its kit (free dualcast during downtime).

That said, I expect and wish for some changes tomorrow when the patch drops

i expect some potency increase, thats about it

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Originally Posted by gumas

i expect some potency increase, thats about it

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I'm really hoping for some. I hope they do.

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Originally Posted by Drekor

From what I've seen I'd say phoenix needs major buffs to at least be on par with bahamut phase(or bahamut needs a nerf I guess), because it feels super bad to have to use phoenix. Also I generally don't think summoner DPS should get much of a buff. It's mobility and utility should leave it down with the ranged physical.

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Well seeing as all 3 ranged DPS need to be buffed solidly (Dancer and MCH especially) as well that would mean Summoner needs to be buffed pretty well too.

The 'mobility advantage' that leads to the 'ranged tax' is a meme at this point. Black Mage and Red Mage are both mobile as hell now. Melee's have been given so many QoL upkeeps in the form of reduced positionals, ranged attacks not breaking combos, dash/disengages, and in some cases like Reaper and Ninja, GCD ranged attacks that are actually stronger then their normal GCD's. And so far there has been no indication that the dev team has changed battle design that will actually force Melee downtime that makes ranged DPS get an actual advantage out of their mobility. If anything the constant need for close party stacking for most mechanics on the boss is forcing ranged players closer to the boss and having to deal with the same mechanics the melees do just as often.

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Originally Posted by gumas

i expect some potency increase, thats about it

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༼ づ ಠ_ಠ ༽づ SUMMON POTENCY INCREASES ༼ づ ಠ_ಠ ༽づ

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Originally Posted by Maxilor

༼ づ ಠ_ಠ ༽づ SUMMON POTENCY INCREASES ༼ づ ಠ_ಠ ༽づ

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Yes pls!
༼ づ ಠ_ಠ ༽づ SUMMON POTENCY INCREASES ༼ づ ಠ_ಠ ༽づ

+1 to wanting summoner potency buffs. I feel it's needed.

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Originally Posted by Drekor

Also I generally don't think summoner DPS should get much of a buff. It's mobility and utility should leave it down with the ranged physical.

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Which means it'll be completely abandoned because unlike the physical range, Summoner has to compete with Black Mage and Red Mage which are both hilariously better in just about every capacity.

Hopefully Ifrit's phase gets some more potency increase, along with Garuda's hard cast.

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Originally Posted by DES_VII

Yes pls!
༼ づ ಠ_ಠ ༽づ SUMMON POTENCY INCREASES ༼ づ ಠ_ಠ ༽づ

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yeah, it so strange that how we summon THE ifrit, titan and garuda, only for them do deal more or less same damage as our puny ruin 4, i expect them to deal damage like bahamut just weaker

Phoenix only buff :/

I mean it almost gets it up to par with Bahamut, but that's it.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

Phoenix only buff :/

I mean it almost gets it up to par with Bahamut, but that's it.

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Pretty sizeable buff though.

Fountain of Fire -> 430 to 520.
Brand of Purgatory -> 180 to 240.

Phoenix phase hitting harder, means the overall DPS will increase a bit, which is all that's required to make SMN competitive on DPS.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

Phoenix only buff :/

I mean it almost gets it up to par with Bahamut, but that's it.

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That's not bad though, I mean I was expecting a few more potency buffs. But this isn't a bad thing.
This should help a bit. And atleast they did something rather, and well look at what DNC got.

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Originally Posted by Halfgeeek

Pretty sizeable buff though.

Fountain of Fire -> 430 to 520.
Brand of Purgatory -> 180 to 240.

Phoenix phase hitting harder, means the overall DPS will increase a bit, which is all that's required to make SMN competitive on DPS.

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540 potency every 2 minutes.

I'm not sure that's enough to get summoner in line with the rest. I'll take whatever buffs they want to give the job, this just feels really conservative.

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Originally Posted by Halfgeeek

Pretty sizeable buff though.

Fountain of Fire -> 430 to 520.
Brand of Purgatory -> 180 to 240.

Phoenix phase hitting harder, means the overall DPS will increase a bit, which is all that's required to make SMN competitive on DPS.

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"sizeable" I think the math puts it like ~40 potency over bahamut phase.
It's a start but I would hardly call it sizeable to essentially get something we should have never lost in the first place

It's a good buff. I think Ifrit needs something similar. I feel like Ifrit is discount Fire 4 atm.

The increased potency should help using Phoenix not seem so bad compared to Bahamut burst.

So I guess smn is staying down with phys ranged. Well, I guess it's better than nothing...

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Originally Posted by PotatoGirl

"sizeable" I think the math puts it like ~40 potency over bahamut phase.
It's a start but I would hardly call it sizeable to essentially get something we should have never lost in the first place

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How far behind do you think SMN is right now to where it should be?

Bigger buffs that pleases some of you would only create another OP situation. -_-

Don't see these buffs making SMN ever wanted over the other two casters. Probably remain just above Dancer at the bottom of the DPS charts.

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Originally Posted by Halfgeeek

How far behind do you think SMN is right now to where it should be?

Bigger buffs that pleases some of you would only create another OP situation. -_-

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We just want to be competitive with RDM which is far more desirable as it is currently.

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Originally Posted by Halfgeeek

How far behind do you think SMN is right now to where it should be?

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I think it's fair to say summoner should be above physical ranged that have zero cast times on anything and never have melee restrictions.

Looking at FFlogs, this buff should put SMN comfortably above the average scores for ranged rDPS and tiny bit below RDM. It's fine.

Summoner just needs something to make its rotation more interesting now.

like adding 1 dot to manage? lol

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

I think it's fair to say summoner should be above physical ranged that have zero cast times on anything and never have melee restrictions.

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Doesn’t summoner cast like 7 times over a two
Minute period? Genuine question because a samurai has more casts than a summoner right now

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

I think it's fair to say summoner should be above physical ranged that have zero cast times on anything and never have melee restrictions.

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A bit above, perhaps. But it already is ahead of every Ranged DPS until the 95th percentile and only faintly behind Bard thereafter. Actually, feel free to be noticeably above Machinist, if only for reasons of complexity. (This isn't Stormblood, after all.)

To me, the larger requisite change is to get SMN neck-and-neck with RDM and cut the gap between RDM and the Physical Ranged by about half. In that case, SMN should be looking at a 2 to 3% buff. This latest buff is probably very nearly that.

But, one small note: if time spent casting were of the key balancing factor here, then SMN should be below RDM.

SMN is more mobile than RDM, so they shouldn't get on par with RDM IMO, though with these changes I think they will get close.

BLM needs a buff out of the casters.

DNC desperately needs a buff.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

I think it's fair to say summoner should be above physical ranged that have zero cast times on anything and never have melee restrictions.

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Sure 3 casts per minutes is definitely going to be a handicap.
At that level, I can argue that APM is also part of difficulty.
And SMN APM is very low, on top of a complexity of putting square cube in square hole, triangle in triangle hole.

And that's without the utility of SMN.

It's not a complexity or mobility issue. As a caster, people will decide to take on based on dps and utility. RDM has more of both than summoner and BLM is way ahead on damage. SMN will be the last choice to take as a caster, even with these minor buffs.

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Originally Posted by Halfgeeek

SMN is more mobile than RDM, so they shouldn't get on par with RDM IMO, though with these changes I think they will get close.

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SMN is more mobile, but RDM has more utility, so i think they should get on the same power level.

RDM has Vercure with high potency and can instant Verraise multiple times, while SMN has that joke called Physick and need to use swiftcast in it's rotation so it can't instant Raise most of the time.

That SMN buff seemswhack, but still a buff though lol.
Should have really granted two stacks of the oGCD during bahamut and phoenix along with the potency buff to ifrit.