Dear SquareEnix/Natsuko Ishikawa - About Zenos in Endwalker *MAJOR MSQ SPOILERS*!

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Originally Posted by MilkieTea

This. Emet-Selch was a wonderful villain and our adventures on Elpis really put a lot into perspective. He had redeeming qualities.

Zenos has none - which is FINE. What he said to Jullus is essentially how I feel about him - why would him being "redeemable" make any difference? He's laid to ruin entire civilizations, he's committed mass genocide, he's personally killed possibly dozens of people. He wanted to fight, he wanted to die fighting. He got what he wanted. Let the man rest in peace, and if you personally want a redemption arc for him then view his bargain as that redemption: He was willing to save a universe to get a chance to die at the WoL's hand. There.

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In fairness Emet was essentially a genocidal maniac too.

In the end of the day I think that wanting some deep reason behind it is mostly a selfish thing because people want to feel better about it knowing that it '' wasn't for no reason ''.
Most violence in video games is really for no reason, when you really think about it like 90+% of all violence in games is totally unjustified and just the player wanting a thrill.
People do enjoy it and in the past we've enjoyed it in real life too for entertainment.

I kinda liked how honest of a villain he was, it would've been worse if there were no villains like Emet around with more complex reasons.
And people enjoy villains like that all the time, not every villain in FFXIV needs to have a soap opera reasoning behind what they're doing.

Edit: Not to mention how wanting to die fighting and just being good at it is glorified a lot in other media too and has been historically.
We glorify needless violence constantly and always have.

The ending with Zenos made no sense, all this build up with him only to be pushed aside by a emo girl. I knew he was going to help us somehow and it was disappointing.

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Originally Posted by Elysidelphi

Zenos is someone with a tragic childhood, who was used by his own father, who ended up becoming a monster, someone who seems to have all the signs of classic depression (plus maybe other disorders), someone who didn't even have a single friend in his whole life. He never knew happiness, love, friendship, warmth.

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Where is this information coming from? I can't recall anything in game indicating he had some sort of tragic childhood. Everything seemed to indicate exactly what his father said - he was a spoiled princeling who took advantage of his status to please himself.

Whether or not he was supposed to have depression or other disorders, it doesn't excuse the things he did. If he didn't have a friend, it's because he chose not to have them. He is the one who denied himself happiness, love, friendship, warmth.

Sounds like you went a bit overboard with some personal fanfic to give you an excuse to turn him into your fantasy love husbando.

No, let's not bring Zenos back. He isn't deserving of anything other than what he got in the end -

an anticlimactic battle leaving him abandoned and dying in the Rift. As bland as it was compared to what we had experienced just prior to it, it was a fitting end to the character.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Where is this information coming from? I can't recall anything in game indicating he had some sort of tragic childhood. Everything seemed to indicate exactly what his father said - he was a spoiled princeling who took advantage of his status to please himself.

Whether or not he was supposed to have depression or other disorders, it doesn't excuse the things he did. If he didn't have a friend, it's because he chose not to have them. He is the one who denied himself happiness, love, friendship, warmth.

Sounds like you went a bit overboard with some personal fanfic to give you an excuse to turn him into your fantasy love husbando.

No, let's not bring Zenos back. He isn't deserving of anything other than what he got in the end -

an anticlimactic battle leaving him abandoned and dying in the Rift. As bland as it was compared to what we had experienced just prior to it, it was a fitting end to the character.

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A good chunk of this thread can be summed up with: Draco in Leather Pants.

https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/p...ephiroth_1.png

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Originally Posted by Tsukino

Leave it to someone who likes a piece of cardboard like Zenos to have trouble with making paragraphs.

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I liked him too tbh. I understood why he was the way that he was.
My read on him was that he is a sort of mirror to us as the WOL.
We are ecceptionally powerful and skilled in all things.
Zenos was the same minus him being Garlean preventing his use of magic, which finds a workaround to.

Now, where we as the WOL are an adventurer travelling places and generally being a helpful sort. We are quite happy to put our power to use in service of others.

Zenos on the other hand, was raised on the opposite belief that everyone else existed to serve his power.
His apathy towards life in general stemmed from being overwhelmingly good at whatever he chose to do.
When there is nothing and no one left to challenge you, it's easy to fall back on apathy.

Fast forward to Stormblood. Yes he beats us on the first fight, but we pushed him harder than anyone else ever did, thus sparking an interest that maybe.. just maybe we could bring a spark of joy to an otherwise boring existence.
And we rise to that challenge. Not because we wanted more power but because we were determined to free the region from his grip.

The way it's all written with him always going on about the hunt after he came back to life seemed like he was wanting to hunt us.
But it's actually the opposite. We defeated him already, we CANT be his prey.
Which leads to all his efforts to make us hate him enough to hunt him down and give him the fight he so desperately craved.
His "Hunt" was to be the hunted, not the hunter. We know he knew exactly where we were at any given moment. He could have challenged us whenever he wanted to by attacking the Scion etc.
But it wasn't a simple exchange of blows he was after.
Basically, he wanted to feel like the hunted, to feel that there was a wall before him that he had to put his all into overcoming.

This is what led to that final encounter and the lines he gives during it.
That he's dead and gone now, after finally getting the fight of his life is a fitting end to what is essentially a character with a twisted personality born of his upbringing.
It was a good way to end his legacy. And I enjoyed the fight and cutscene immensely.

The only thing that bothers me is that Zenos got destroyed by an Astrologist.

Imagine wanting to have the battle of your life and all I did was DoT him and then spamming Malefic over and over while running away from him and spam healing myself.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Where is this information coming from? I can't recall anything in game indicating he had some sort of tragic childhood. Everything seemed to indicate exactly what his father said - he was a spoiled princeling who took advantage of his status to please himself.

Whether or not he was supposed to have depression or other disorders, it doesn't excuse the things he did. If he didn't have a friend, it's because he chose not to have them. He is the one who denied himself happiness, love, friendship, warmth.

Sounds like you went a bit overboard with some personal fanfic to give you an excuse to turn him into your fantasy love husbando.

No, let's not bring Zenos back. He isn't deserving of anything other than what he got in the end -

an anticlimactic battle leaving him abandoned and dying in the Rift. As bland as it was compared to what we had experienced just prior to it, it was a fitting end to the character.

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The information is coming from the short stories on Lodestone and the different FFXIV books. Plus all the subtle and not so subtle clues given in the game about Zenos. Those indicate that he had a tragic childhood. And as a psychologist in training myself, I know that the first 5 years of a child's life will determine their personality as an adult, either in great ways or in terrible ways; and if that person wants to change, it always takes a great deal of hard work and effort and time, it can never be done overnight.

As for what his father said, that he was a spoiled princeling:
1. His father was a terrible parent, neglecting him as a child
2. His father continued being a terrible parent using Zenos as a weapon to further the agenda of the empire, to conquer territories, strike fear and submission in the hearts of people, etc.
So I wouldn't take anything Varis says about Zenos as truth/fact. If Zenos became a monster, his father had a huge part to play in that transformation, he contributed to that a great deal, and he even enjoyed and encouraged it as it helped with his plans for his empire.

Furthermore, being a prince, or a rich person, does not automatically mean that you are spoiled and happy and have everything you could ever want. Often it is the case that rich people do not have strong, real emotional bonds, or even friends. A good real example of this is Price Harry of the British Royal Family. Anyone could say he was a spoiled princeling, but if you actually listen to his interviews about his childhood, the way he was raised, his life in the Royal Family, then you will see that he lacked attention, love, warmth, human connection. He was neglected by most, excepting his mother, even though even she neglected him at times. His father, Prince Charles, had a similar upbringing, being raised by nannies, barely seeing his parents and whenever he saw his parents he would interact with them formally, coldly, there would be no warmth, no hugs, nothing of the sort. And the way they were raised impacted them for the rest of their lives. Prince Harry now struggles with depression and anxiety, Prince Charles doesn't have a good relationship with his own son Prince Harry and he himself is a cold, reserved man. Sure, they were raised in the lap of luxury, having money and power and influence, but that did nothing for their emotional health, they weren't happy and fulfilled. In fact, Prince Harry ended up feeling so overwhelmed by the life in the Royal Family that he chose to move to America to distance himself from them, even at the risk of losing relationships with his family. There are a number of interviews (plus books) about these events that clearly show that being rich/royal doesn't equate with happiness and fulfillment and healthy relationships and a healthy mind.

No amount of money, luxury, castles and palaces, fame, power, and influence can ever replace genuine human connection, especially the connection between parents and children. Humans are social animals, who need strong social bonds in order to develop in a healthy way, both physically and mentally. Young children can be destroyed by emotional neglect from their parents; even if they have nannies and private tutors, none of those people can ever replace the warmth, love and attention a father and mother would give their child.

In the case of Zenos, he lost his mother shortly after he was born, and his father neglected him and encouraged his cruelty once it was born instead of helping him overcome it. So yeah, Zenos is the result of his father's failures as a parent.

And yeah, Zenos did have depression, plus very likely other things as well. Childhood neglect and emotional childhood truama always leave deep scars that manifest themselves in a multitude of ways. The fact that he was always so bored and apathetic, the way he talks about other people, the choices of his words, all of these are subtle clues that indicate a much larger problem within him.
No, having mental issues doesn't excuse what he did, but neither can he take all of the blame for it, while his father and society at large get away with no blame whatsoever. Many mentally-ill people, especially those with problems stemming from their childhoods (as is Zenos's case) do not even genuinely realise that they have a problem. They genuinely think they should be/feel/think/act the way they do. They do not know, or even imagine that there might be other ways. There was a famous case in real life of a little girl (I think) raised by wild animals, maybe by wolves? Something like that. She spent the first years of her life with animals, no humans. Once she was found and taken by humans, it took many years to undo everything she learnt to do in her early childhood and even now she's not functioning like most of us. My point is that those early years of a child's life are more essential to their development than most people realise and if those years are crappy, it takes forever to improve and change that, and even then the change might not be complete. There are entire books and research about this that explains it much better than I am right now.

And maybe Zenos didn't even know he was supposed to have friends. Or maybe, being a prince, he realised that people around him would be friendly either because they were paid to work for him or because they were hoping to get rewards in exchange for being close with the heir and price. Zenos is shown as being intelligent, enjoying to read books and preferring to read books alone than being in the company of others. So he probably realised that people around him would only want to be his friends due to his status as a prince, and rather than have that, he chose loneliness, can you blame him for this? I certainly can't. I'd rather be alone than have fake friends.

No, he didn't deny himself happiness, friendship, warmth and love. It's entirely possible he believed they didn't even exist in the first place.
Just like that little girl being raised by animals, she didn't know or even imagine that human society existed, that cities and towns existed, that electricity, the Internet, books, education existed, she couldn't even speak in a human language, she only made animalic sounds. When you are raised in a certain environment, it's extremely hard to imagine or even think about the possibility that something else different exists. It doesn't even cross your mind.

I don't think I went overboard with anything in regards to Zenos. I simply analysed his character and put the pieces together. I do this with many characters. As someone specialising in forensic psychology, I choose to believe that everybody can be redeemed. Everybody. How you do it is an entirely different story. And obviously in fictional stories, it's not always good story-telling to redeem every single villain, nor am I asking or wanting that. But I am asking for the redemption of certain villains, yes, and I will die on that hill. The reason I am now focusing on Zenos, apart from everything else I've explained when I opened this thread, is because of his childhood. That was what started it all. Now, if he had a perfectly happy childhood, with a good and close relationship with both his parents, if he felt loved and wanted and given warmth and attention and companionship from both his parents, if he had never been used as a weapon to further the empire's agenda, if he had that kind of happy, safe and healthy childhood, if he was taught kindness and compassion, and then he went on and in his 20s he chose to ignore all of that and become a monster, for no good reason other than power and fun, if that was Zenos's actual story, then yes, I would have little to no sympathy and empathy for him; because he was given the chance to know and enjoy another lifestyle, a good, healthy lifestyle, where he had no trauma, no emotional neglect, where he had it all, and he still chose violence and cruelty simply because he could, then yes, zero sympathy from me. But that is NOT his story. That is not what happened. And I will not ignore the parts about his childhood and early adult life and focus exclusively on how he is right now. I will not do that because that is not how this works. Everything is connected and I will not ignore that just to jump on the hate/kill him/let him stay dead bandwagon.

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Originally Posted by Elysidelphi

That part was never made clear, no. If the writers simply say "He cannot feel empathy or affection" that isn't a proper explanation, that is just a statement. The explanation would be why he can't feel that, backstory, details, reasons, etc. We are told/shown some things about Zenos, that he is this or that, or can do this or that, but we aren't given the reasons as to why. Some people are more than fine with just this much, they don't care to know more. Other people, like me, would like proper explanations and details.

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But you have a proper explanation and details. They are short and to the point, but they explain perfectly why Zenos is the way he is. He doesn't need yet another resurrection to flesh out any of that. And he delivered his message of 'counterpoint to the WoL' perfectly in this expansion

EDIT: to clarify
Zenos is a sociopath without empathy or understanding of other people because his mother died when he was a baby, he was raised by servants in the loveless desert of the Imperial Palace, and not valued for his intelligence or his prowess by anyone he might have expected to do so.

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Originally Posted by Miracle_Diva

What's the actual problem with others wanting Zenos back? People want more of him, a lot of answers left unanswered.
Some are fine with Scions STILL being alive after everything. They just get get-out-of-jail-free card every single time there's danger to their lives. Isn't this bad writing too + simple fanservice? Zenos has his own fans too.
The difference is that They are the bad guys and did bad things so they don't deserve anything, but it's fine when it's WoL and Scions.

As long as death would mean something in this game, I would probably look at this differently. But it means nothing, people come from the dead all the time. Yet only one character gets all the hate.
We are not the ones deciding who lives and who goes in this game of course, so I wonder what lies ahead.

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A large number of players are unhappy about anyone - particularly the Scions - having plot armour. Hyomin talked about the fake deaths in the final zone of EW in this very thread; there are number of other threads on the subject of 'who needs to die' elsewhere. I disagree that it's only the bad guys that players don't want back. You only need to read threads about Elpis to know how pleased most were to get to spend more time with Emet-Selch.

Personally I very much hope the latter shows up again - he is just such an entertaining character even when he's being a sarcastic dick - but I can't think of anything useful or interesting to be derived from another Zenos resurrection. He's served his purpose thematically, we've moved on now, let him rest

I didn't read OP or 90% of this thread, but here's the bottom line: Zenos needs to just be done as he hasn't been relevant since Stormblood. The final fight with him was pretty good, though.

Zenos was the weakest part of this expansion by far; even his tenuous relevance wasn't utilized much at all. That being said, it's over now, and we can move on.

Forge ahead!

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Originally Posted by Elladie

A large number of players are unhappy about anyone - particularly the Scions - having plot armour. Hyomin talked about the fake deaths in the final zone of EW in this very thread; there are number of other threads on the subject of 'who needs to die' elsewhere. I disagree that it's only the bad guys that players don't want back. You only need to read threads about Elpis to know how pleased most were to get to spend more time with Emet-Selch.

Personally I very much hope the latter shows up again - he is just such an entertaining character even when he's being a sarcastic dick - but I can't think of anything useful or interesting to be derived from another Zenos resurrection. He's served his purpose thematically, we've moved on now, let him rest

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I am unhappy about the Scions having plot armour as well. As much as I love them, I don't think they deserve plot armour, especially in a scenario such as the one presented by Endwalker: The Final Days.
I am not someone who says that no character should ever die, but I am someone who believes that important characters, if they have to die, should have meaningful deaths and be properly developed before dying.

I absolutely adore Emet-Selch and I too would adore to see him again and spend more time with him in future patches and expansions. But I feel the same about Zenos, if even more so, for the reasons I've already listed previously. When Emet-Selch was first introduced in the patches between Stormblood and Shadowbringers, he came across as yet another crazy, deranged, dangerous Ascian. But in Shadowbringers his character was given a backstory and proper development, which continued in future patches and even now in Endwalker. My hope is that the same happens for Zenos, that he will come back and be properly developed, especially now that the main arc story of Hydaelyn and Zodiark is done. My hope is that now there will be more time and resources to focus on previously neglected characters such as Zenos and develop them beautifully. Ishikawa has shown time and time again that she can turn a character/plot around and make it interesting and meaningful. For example, take Emet-Selch. He himself was more or less a sociopath/psychopath in Shadowbringers since he actively participated in 7 Rejoinings which killed numerous people on both the Source and each of the Shards that had been absorbed. He built empires and let them collapse for the sole purpose of chaos. He killed and made countless people suffer over thousands and thousands of years. If anything, Emet-Selch's kill count is way, way higher than Zenos's kill count. Yet, Emet-Selch is now a beloved character because Ishikawa managed to write him thus, she gave him proper development. I believe that if she wanted and if she were allowed, given the time and resources to do it, she could also turn Zenos around.

"Where there's a will, there's a way. After all, miracles happen every day."

Felt like he was some stalker Ex-Boyfriend who would just keep showing up randomly. . . I'm like . . ok why are you standing here? We broke up! It's over Zenos go away no one wants to fight you! *giggle*

Please leave Zenos where he is, dead and gone, and write a much better villain than him.

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Originally Posted by Elysidelphi

Ishikawa has shown time and time again that she can turn a character/plot around and make it interesting and meaningful.

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Ishikawa had two full expansion to work with and still couldn't salvage his character. Zenos is relegated so far into the background in Endwalker you could literally delete every scene he was in and change virtually nothing. He does nothing; accomplishing nothing and is written off after pulling a Deus ex Machina because nobody knew what to do with him. Reducing Emet-Selch to simply being a sociopath in Shadowbringers only highlights your bias. His entire development happened throughout that expansion and only continued in Endwalker. Furthermore, most people who praise Emet-Selch still denounce his horrible actions for precisely what they were. They like him as a villain and acknowledge he is a deeply flawed character. They aren't making excuses for his attempt at mass genocide due to a poor childhood.

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Originally Posted by Elysidelphi

For example, take Emet-Selch. He himself was more or less a sociopath/psychopath in Shadowbringers since he actively participated in 7 Rejoinings which killed numerous people on both the Source and each of the Shards that had been absorbed. He built empires and let them collapse for the sole purpose of chaos. He killed and made countless people suffer over thousands and thousands of years. If anything, Emet-Selch's kill count is way, way higher than Zenos's kill count. Yet, Emet-Selch is now a beloved character because Ishikawa managed to write him thus, she gave him proper development. I believe that if she wanted and if she were allowed, given the time and resources to do it, she could also turn Zenos around.

"Where there's a will, there's a way. After all, miracles happen every day."

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You’re ignoring Emet’s motives here. Why did he create all this destruction? To save his people. To save the people he loved. And there lies the key word here: love. Something a sociopath is not capable of feeling or even understanding.

It wasn’t directed towards us—we got the brunt of his negative, murderous emotions. But the fact remains that he felt very strong emotions towards what became of his people and his world. He shows more than enough emotion just in a handful of interactions in Shadowbringers (him speaking with you outside The Ladder in Kholusia, and his monologue prior to unlocking Amarout are two that come to mind). If he were a sociopath, then he wouldn’t be able to display as much emotion as he did in just those two scenes.

That said, he is still a villain and deserves to be vilified for everything he did to us and to our worlds. The difference between him and Zenos is that he actually has redeeming qualities. And we see them in Elpis. He also went quietly when it was his time—his resurrections have primarily been backstories and not to shove him down the player character’s throat in a forced attempt at making a foil/mirror to us. Emet is actually dead; versus Zenos who cheats death in order to do…absolutely nothing 95% of the time he’s on screen.

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Originally Posted by Miracle_Diva

What's the actual problem with others wanting Zenos back? People want more of him, a lot of answers left unanswered.
Some are fine with Scions STILL being alive after everything. They just get get-out-of-jail-free card every single time there's danger to their lives. Isn't this bad writing too + simple fanservice? Zenos has his own fans too.
The difference is that They are the bad guys and did bad things so they don't deserve anything, but it's fine when it's WoL and Scions.

As long as death would mean something in this game, I would probably look at this differently. But it means nothing, people come from the dead all the time. Yet only one character gets all the hate.
We are not the ones deciding who lives and who goes in this game of course, so I wonder what lies ahead.

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I’ve complained in this very thread about the Scions constantly cheating death. Their “sacrifices” in Ultima Thule were completely undermined by the fact that they weren’t actually dead. Thancred should have died after his fight with Ran’jit in 5.0—it was the perfect moment and closure for his character. And I was so disappointed that they just slapped a few bandaids on him and called it a day. Y’shtola is “killed” every expansion and made all better again a few quests later. It’s to the point that, should she actually die sometime in the future, I can no longer feel any emotional impact from it. That’s said, they did kill off two Scions: Papalymo—he’s honestly barely mentioned except in an offhand comment by Lyse; and Minfilia. And honestly, the ending they gave Minfilia was perfect. And it redeemed her character a lot for me.

And death should mean something in this game. So why further undermine it by bringing Zenos back for a THIRD time? That’s only exacerbating the issue. Especially since it seems unlikely that the writers will actually do anything with him. He’s been around for 2 expansions, and has barely done anything other than sit on his butt in every other scene sleeping or being bored.

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Originally Posted by Elysidelphi

I agree with you so much! So happy to see that there are people who have similar thoughts and feelings to me in regards to Zenos. Thank you for not giving up entirely on Zenos, seriously, thank you!

I definitely want Zenos back and with in-depth development. There are quite a few questions related to him that are left unanswered and I am super interested in finding out those answers.
Some of the questions I have about Zenos are:
(...)
Oh, and personally I became invested in Zenos since Stormblood. His obsessive hunt of the WoL stood out to me since the very start, but what got me really invested in him was his suicide scene back in Stormblood. I could talk forever about that scene. But that one scene got me hooked, I remember being happy when I found out that he's actually alive and the mystery around him only got me more and more invested. Plus, of course, the extra stories about him/his childhood and all the subtle implications about his life and personality.

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I got kinda invested in Stormblood as well. When I told him I was his friend, I took that to my heart. In my headcanon, my WOL always considered him as a friend, like they bonded over the whole thing.
But then when he came back to life I thought it was kinda weird and kind of lacking reason. Like, it wasn't fun just seeing him being the godlike unkillable strong NPC that just kills everyone with a bored face. That being said, when he comes back in Endwalker and starts to question what is it that he's looking for in the WOL, that's when I got hooked. That was the depth I had always been waiting for Zenos to have. That's all he needed: depth and development.
Seeing his scene at the end of EW turned my dimly lit candle of interest for Zenos into a bonfire. He was so excited, and he was like "WHY IS SHE STILL STANDING? SURE IT IS NO MATCH FOR SOMEONE LIKE YOU", I was finally 200% hooked. That was such a cool scene. He's one of my favorite characters now and I really want him to be developed further.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Ishikawa had two full expansion to work with and still couldn't salvage his character. Zenos is relegated so far into the background in Endwalker you could literally delete every scene he was in and change virtually nothing. He does nothing; accomplishing nothing and is written off after pulling a Deus ex Machina because nobody knew what to do with him. Reducing Emet-Selch to simply being a sociopath in Shadowbringers only highlights your bias. His entire development happened throughout that expansion and only continued in Endwalker. Furthermore, most people who praise Emet-Selch still denounce his horrible actions for precisely what they were. They like him as a villain and acknowledge he is a deeply flawed character. They aren't making excuses for his attempt at mass genocide due to a poor childhood.

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It really felt to me like Zenos was basically the pet character of someone on the development or writing team and Ishikawa was essentially forced to keep writing him into things. She's done a lot with every other character, even bit characters, and was able to make them all feel important and entertaining. It's not like she couldn't have done anything better with Zenos if she wanted to, but it just feels like she didn't want to.

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Originally Posted by Mezzoforte

You can tell the kind of lives people lead that they would call Zenos 1-dimensional or cardboard.
Being raised by yourself, mother dies and father completely neglects you, while at the same time you are trained to be a tool of an imperial war machine. Every moment completely empty because you have never learned to or have understood what being happy was. Then finally finding that one single thing that makes you feel alive and human again.
Zenos is a story of someone who had a completely hollow and empty existence. Discovering meaning in life. Having to understand others eventually in their own quest to have meaning. It isnt really a story of redemption or combatsexual but a story of a hollow person trying to fill that void. He even goes so far as to come rescue you just to get you to acknowledge him. Deem him worthy of your attention. Which is all he wants. What he never had his entire life. The attention or someone equal or greater than him.
Most the people talking poorly about him and his story are likely people staring down from their ivory towers.

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Great reply. Really.
I would only add that I feel like he has the kind of personality of someone who, in a matter, "has everything". He's way too powerful, unstoppable. That causes someone to become apathetic (also mistaken for 'boredom' by other people). Kinda like people who become millionaires and then find out they have no meaning in life, because they spent their whole lives thinking that was it. And then I connect it to what you said: he finds someone who not only is stronger than him, but doesn't even acknowledge him, doesn't care about him at all.

I think Zenos is a character who's all about potential. There's so much to him to be developed, he has so many roles he could fulfill. But people aren't patient enough and they want him gone because they can't wait. They forget that it took a long ass time to develop Ascians to the point where they could be interesting.
I remember back in stormblood, I was like "Oh no, not Ascians again. Don't they get tired of this same trope everytime?"
And now I really want to know more about the Ascians, Ancients, Amaurot, everything. The same for Allagans: I feel like I'm tired of everything bad that happens being caused by some Allagan thing, but I feel like I may yet be surprised if they decide to do an expansion where we learn more about Allagans. Maybe when we visit Meracydia we'll have some more insight.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Zenos was willing to usher in mass genocide, death, and the end of our world

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Truth be told, Meteion also wanted to destroy everything and I also finished EW wanting more of her.

In fact, thinking back, Emet-Selch too.

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Originally Posted by NyannCat

Truth be told, Meteion also wanted to destroy everything and I also finished EW wanting more of her.

In fact, thinking back, Emet-Selch too.

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You should not take statements out of context. I was clearly discussing why something like a redemption arc would not work for Zenos and how unsympathetic of a character he is with that statement—but you chose to omit all of that. That said, both have qualities that Zenos does not: character development and depth. In addition to having enough redeeming qualities that a redemption arc wouldn’t feel like some poorly written fan fiction.

It’s just staggering how blindly defensive some people get of this character. I can’t really understand it, because he’s had 2 expansions and done less in them than some characters have done in a handful of cutscenes. There’s too much blind defense for him that kind of adds to the entire meme. He truly is the Draco in Leather Pants trope the more I read this thread. Stop painting him as a victim when he is very clearly not a victim. He’s been completely complacent in his blatant disregard for anyone and everyone but himself.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Ishikawa had two full expansion to work with and still couldn't salvage his character. Zenos is relegated so far into the background in Endwalker you could literally delete every scene he was in and change virtually nothing. He does nothing; accomplishing nothing and is written off after pulling a Deus ex Machina because nobody knew what to do with him. Reducing Emet-Selch to simply being a sociopath in Shadowbringers only highlights your bias. His entire development happened throughout that expansion and only continued in Endwalker. Furthermore, most people who praise Emet-Selch still denounce his horrible actions for precisely what they were. They like him as a villain and acknowledge he is a deeply flawed character. They aren't making excuses for his attempt at mass genocide due to a poor childhood.

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Yes, I do wonder why Ishikawa didn't do much with Zenos, but I choose to hope and I still want her to bring him back and do a lot more with him. He is not even the only character that wasn't developed much. I can name a few of them, such as Lahabrea, Elidibus, Varis even, Emperor Xande, the remaining Ascians, Unukalhai, Cylva, etc. I have many questions about all these characters and about other characters as well and I'd like to see them developed as well.

I did not reduce Emet-Selch to a sociopath, I said he could have come across like that but thankfully Ishikawa developed him and gave him depth, gave him a backstory and reasons.

I am not making excuses for Zenos because of his childhood, but I am saying that his childhood and life in general did contribute to his personality. Again, monsters are made, not born. No, it doesn't excuse him, but it should make him more understandable.

Emet-Selch is one of my favourite characters if not my number one favourite character in FFXIV and I loved what Ishikawa did with him. I just wish she did something similar with Zenos, as in: give him depth, give him a proper backstory. No, it doesn't need to be a grand reason or scheme like Emet-Selch's desire to restore his world and people, but it should be a proper story, with in-depth development. That's what I want.

I'm not sure if his story is over. I think saying it is or it isn't inevitably has personal bias towards the character influencing your opinion. But: he is for all intents and purposes immortal/an Ascian. He has the Echo, survived suicide, can see colors of souls, swap bodies, etc. He consumed the Mothercrystal. A lot of opportunities here to have him come back if that's their plan. I think his character has a LOT of potential and they are setting up something great.

Yes, I like his character a lot, and don't understand why people hate him so much. Seems like people just jump on the bandwagon. I like ""good"" villains like Emet-Selch too but, I love Zenos, especially after his character development in EW that I can see possibly get expanded.

If he doesn't, and he's gone forever, so be it. It's up to the writers, not us. But I have a feeling they want to give him some kind of redemption or further development.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

You’re ignoring Emet’s motives here. Why did he create all this destruction? To save his people. To save the people he loved. And there lies the key word here: love. Something a sociopath is not capable of feeling or even understanding.

It wasn’t directed towards us—we got the brunt of his negative, murderous emotions. But the fact remains that he felt very strong emotions towards what became of his people and his world. He shows more than enough emotion just in a handful of interactions in Shadowbringers (him speaking with you outside The Ladder in Kholusia, and his monologue prior to unlocking Amarout are two that come to mind). If he were a sociopath, then he wouldn’t be able to display as much emotion as he did in just those two scenes.

That said, he is still a villain and deserves to be vilified for everything he did to us and to our worlds. The difference between him and Zenos is that he actually has redeeming qualities. And we see them in Elpis. He also went quietly when it was his time—his resurrections have primarily been backstories and not to shove him down the player character’s throat in a forced attempt at making a foil/mirror to us. Emet is actually dead; versus Zenos who cheats death in order to do…absolutely nothing 95% of the time he’s on screen.



I’ve complained in this very thread about the Scions constantly cheating death. Their “sacrifices” in Ultima Thule were completely undermined by the fact that they weren’t actually dead. Thancred should have died after his fight with Ran’jit in 5.0—it was the perfect moment and closure for his character. And I was so disappointed that they just slapped a few bandaids on him and called it a day. Y’shtola is “killed” every expansion and made all better again a few quests later. It’s to the point that, should she actually die sometime in the future, I can no longer feel any emotional impact from it. That’s said, they did kill off two Scions: Papalymo—he’s honestly barely mentioned except in an offhand comment by Lyse; and Minfilia. And honestly, the ending they gave Minfilia was perfect. And it redeemed her character a lot for me.

And death should mean something in this game. So why further undermine it by bringing Zenos back for a THIRD time? That’s only exacerbating the issue. Especially since it seems unlikely that the writers will actually do anything with him. He’s been around for 2 expansions, and has barely done anything other than sit on his butt in every other scene sleeping or being bored.

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You are wrong. Sociopaths can feel love. Even psychopaths can feel love. Sociopathy and psychopathy function on a scale/spectrum, and some psychopaths and some sociopaths do feel love. Do feel attachment. Do get attached. Do feel affection. There were actual interviews with people diagnosed with sociopathy or psychopathy and a number of them have confirmed that they did feel love, affection and attachment towards their partners or friends or family. And they do definitely understand it, even the ones who do not feel it, they can understand it as it is perceived/felt/described by others and they even feel regretful that they themselves cannot feel it. But again, sociopathy and psychopathy function on a spectrum. Not all psychopaths and not all sociopaths feel and act and think the same, some cannot feel love, but some can feel love. It is wrong to generalise. In the case of Zenos, we do not even know for certain whether he is a sociopath or a psychopath and even if he were, we do not know where on that scale he would fall. And we do not know these things because he is not properly developed.

And when I call for Zenos to be brought back, I don't want him to come back and again do nothing. I never wanted that for him, to do nothing, have no development. I always wanted him to have development, especially now when the main story is done and other characters could be developed more/properly.

I don't want Zenos to be brought back to undermine death. That is not the reason why I want him back. I want him back because I have many unanswered questions that I want answered with him alive and involved in the story and because I want him to be developed properly. If he had been developed properly back in Stormblood or Shadowbringers or even now in Endwalker, and then killed in a meaningful way, I would have been okay with that and I wouldn't have wanted him back. I just hate seeing wasted potential, having way too many unanswered questions, and so on. If my concerns had been addressed from the start, years ago, I would not be writing any of this now and I would have been perfectly happy and excited to move on to new villains.

I feel the same. I desperately want to know more about his past and his feelings. I do think he has some. He probably just numbs himself and hides them. And I think the "I..." at the end was just a cliffhanger...I want to know what he was going to say. ;-;
I think he's just extremely depressed. I've been there. Maybe that's why I kind of relate to him.

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Originally Posted by NyannCat

Great reply. Really.
I would only add that I feel like he has the kind of personality of someone who, in a matter, "has everything". He's way too powerful, unstoppable. That causes someone to become apathetic (also mistaken for 'boredom' by other people). Kinda like people who become millionaires and then find out they have no meaning in life, because they spent their whole lives thinking that was it. And then I connect it to what you said: he finds someone who not only is stronger than him, but doesn't even acknowledge him, doesn't care about him at all.

I think Zenos is a character who's all about potential. There's so much to him to be developed, he has so many roles he could fulfill. But people aren't patient enough and they want him gone because they can't wait. They forget that it took a long ass time to develop Ascians to the point where they could be interesting.
I remember back in stormblood, I was like "Oh no, not Ascians again. Don't they get tired of this same trope everytime?"
And now I really want to know more about the Ascians, Ancients, Amaurot, everything. The same for Allagans: I feel like I'm tired of everything bad that happens being caused by some Allagan thing, but I feel like I may yet be surprised if they decide to do an expansion where we learn more about Allagans. Maybe when we visit Meracydia we'll have some more insight.

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Yeah, well said. Zenos does have a lot of potential and deserves a proper story, like Emet-Selch had a proper story. Ideally, I do want Zenos redeemed because I do believed that everybody can be redeemed if the work needed for that is done of course. But even if he just stays a villain or an anti-hero, I would still be happy. As long as he is developed and given an in-depth story.
Zenos is such a divisive character. You're right that people aren't patient enough and just want him gone just because until now he wasn't properly developed.

Thank you for being different yourself and seeing the potential in Zenos.

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Originally Posted by Elysidelphi

You are wrong. Sociopaths can feel love. Even psychopaths can feel love. Sociopathy and psychopathy function on a scale/spectrum, and some psychopaths and some sociopaths do feel love. Do feel attachment. Do get attached. Do feel affection. There were actual interviews with people diagnosed with sociopathy or psychopathy and a number of them have confirmed that they did feel love, affection and attachment towards their partners or friends or family. And they do definitely understand it, even the ones who do not feel it, they can understand it as it is perceived/felt/described by others and they even feel regretful that they themselves cannot feel it. But again, sociopathy and psychopathy function on a spectrum. Not all psychopaths and not all sociopaths feel and act and think the same, some cannot feel love, but some can feel love. It is wrong to generalise. In the case of Zenos, we do not even know for certain whether he is a sociopath or a psychopath and even if he were, we do not know where on that scale he would fall. And we do not know these things because he is not properly developed.

And when I call for Zenos to be brought back, I don't want him to come back and again do nothing. I never wanted that for him, to do nothing, have no development. I always wanted him to have development, especially now when the main story is done and other characters could be developed more/properly.

I don't want Zenos to be brought back to undermine death. That is not the reason why I want him back. I want him back because I have many unanswered questions that I want answered with him alive and involved in the story and because I want him to be developed properly. If he had been developed properly back in Stormblood or Shadowbringers or even now in Endwalker, and then killed in a meaningful way, I would have been okay with that and I wouldn't have wanted him back. I just hate seeing wasted potential, having way too many unanswered questions, and so on. If my concerns had been addressed from the start, years ago, I would not be writing any of this now and I would have been perfectly happy and excited to move on to new villains.

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You are completely missing the point of what I am even saying: sociopaths and psychopaths (there is a difference between the two) are not capable of the emotional depth and spectrum that Emet-Selch displays. From feelings of love to feelings of remorse to developing bonds with individuals in their communities, they have a limited capacity for all of the above. Psychopaths hardly ever develop bonds with anyone. Sociopaths are incapable of empathy or remorse. Your label for Emet-Selch is incorrect, and it doesn’t take being a psychiatrist to see this. He is far more applicably described as a ruthless villain versus a sociopathic or a psychopathic one.

Is Zenos wasted potential? Absolutely. But that is not an excuse to bring him back a third time only to do nothing with his character—and at this point, there isn’t much that can be done short of giving him some kind of redemption arc that would, as I said above, come across as a poorly written fan fiction because the character himself is poorly written and has no redeeming qualities. If Natsuko thought she could have done something with it, I’m sure she would have at least tried. But he, once again, took a backseat until the very end. Where he wasn’t even needed, in all honestly. Just shoehorned in because they had to do something with him.

He had far more impact dying at the end of Stormblood than his antics in Shadowbringers and Endwalker combined. It’s time to move on to other villains now. Not to just keep rehashing the same ones over and over again. That gets repetitive and boring. At that point, you’re in sunk cost territory.

I'm not convinced Zenos is dead. We killed him once and he didn't stay dead. I think he's going to come back again. Although how he's going to get back from the far end of the Universe, I have no idea.

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Originally Posted by nighttimebunny

I'm not sure if his story is over. I think saying it is or it isn't inevitably has personal bias towards the character influencing your opinion. But: he is for all intents and purposes immortal/an Ascian. He has the Echo, survived suicide, can see colors of souls, swap bodies, etc. He consumed the Mothercrystal. A lot of opportunities here to have him come back if that's their plan. I think his character has a LOT of potential and they are setting up something great.

Yes, I like his character a lot, and don't understand why people hate him so much. Seems like people just jump on the bandwagon. I like ""good"" villains like Emet-Selch too but, I love Zenos, especially after his character development in EW that I can see possibly get expanded.

If he doesn't, and he's gone forever, so be it. It's up to the writers, not us. But I have a feeling they want to give him some kind of redemption or further development.

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Thank you for your reply and for keeping my hope alive! You made some very good points there. I hope to god that you are right and they are setting up something great for him, especially if it's some sort of redemption. If done well, that would send such a powerful message. I really don't want to see this opportunity wasted.

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Originally Posted by nighttimebunny

I feel the same. I desperately want to know more about his past and his feelings. I do think he has some. He probably just numbs himself and hides them. And I think the "I..." at the end was just a cliffhanger...I want to know what he was going to say. ;-;
I think he's just extremely depressed. I've been there. Maybe that's why I kind of relate to him.

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Exactly. Well said. He definitely has feelings. And yeah, it's very likely that he's extremely depressed. And numbing one's feelings and hiding them are defence mechanisms used very frequently by very many people so I could see him do that as well.

Thank you for caring about Zenos and wanting more of him! I feel less alone in this now.

I get the feeling we haven't seen the last of him, and while some people want him to just go away, it kind of feels like his story arc hasn't quite been wrapped up.

To me it seems more like he's on the verge of a change, and that battle at the edge of the universe was just a catalyst for any potential character development

I'm honestly not sure how they'll bring him back and not make it "meh" but if there's one thing that the past 2 expansions have taught me, it's that you can't rush a good story, and if they plan on bringing him back I'm sure they'll lay the framework beforehand so that it doesn't feel contrived

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

You are completely missing the point of what I am even saying: sociopaths and psychopaths (there is a difference between the two) are not capable of the emotional depth and spectrum that Emet-Selch displays. From feelings of love to feelings of remorse to developing bonds with individuals in their communities, they have a limited capacity for all of the above. Psychopaths hardly ever develop bonds with anyone. Sociopaths are incapable of empathy or remorse. Your label for Emet-Selch is incorrect, and it doesn’t take being a psychiatrist to see this. He is far more applicably described as a ruthless villain versus a sociopathic or a psychopathic one.

Is Zenos wasted potential? Absolutely. But that is not an excuse to bring him back a third time only to do nothing with his character—and at this point, there isn’t much that can be done short of giving him some kind of redemption arc that would, as I said above, come across as a poorly written fan fiction because the character himself is poorly written and has no redeeming qualities. If Natsuko thought she could have done something with it, I’m sure she would have at least tried. But he, once again, took a backseat until the very end. Where he wasn’t even needed, in all honestly. Just shoehorned in because they had to do something with him.

He had far more impact dying at the end of Stormblood than his antics in Shadowbringers and Endwalker combined. It’s time to move on to other villains now. Not to just keep rehashing the same ones over and over again. That gets repetitive and boring. At that point, you’re in sunk cost territory.

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Yes, I am well aware that there are differences between psychopaths and sociopaths. But I don't think I'm missing your point. I did not label Emet-Selch neither a sociopath nor a psychopath. I said that he could have come across like that, especially in the patches leading up to Shadowbringers. He could have come across like that to people who don't stop to analyse much or put pieces together. But in Shadowbringers, he was developed fully, given a full story, that was pretty in your face, you didn't have to put pieces together, the story was very clear, very in your face for even those people who don't like to analyse characters and details. And thus, Emet-Selch was "saved" from remaining/coming across as just yet another sociopath/psychopath.

Again, when I say I want Ishikawa to bring him back, I do not want him back just so he could do nothing, yet again.

As for a redemption arc, Zenos could be given redeeming qualities, he could develop more. Personality is not static. It changes. Thus, Zenos could learn and grow and change and earn his redemption. And if written by Ishikawa it wouldn't feel at all like fan fiction. Maybe she did want to do more with Zenos, but because she had to focus on wrapping up a huge story with many other characters, she didn't have the time or resources to also develop Zenos. Unless Ishikawa herself comes out and tells us that Zenos is dead and done and never coming back and she doesn't want to write him anymore, all we can do here is speculate. And in my case, hope.

Zenos's death in Stormblood was shocking, but didn't feel fulfilling, even back then I was left with way too many questions and even back then I wanted to know a lot more about Zenos. If back in Stormblood he had been given the "Emet-Selch treatment" and given a proper backstory and development followed by his suicide, then absolutely I would have been happy with that. Probably heartbroken, but happy.

As long as I have questions about a character, that character never gets old, repetitive or boring for me.

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

I get the feeling we haven't seen the last of him, and while some people want him to just go away, it kind of feels like his story arc hasn't quite been wrapped up.

To me it seems more like he's on the verge of a change, and that battle at the edge of the universe was just a catalyst for any potential character development

I'm honestly not sure how they'll bring him back and not make it "meh" but if there's one thing that the past 2 expansions have taught me, it's that you can't rush a good story, and if they plan on bringing him back I'm sure they'll lay the framework beforehand so that it doesn't feel contrived

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Well said! I hope you are right!

And yeah, I got the same feelings about Zenos in Endwalker. He kept appearing in different scenes, and it felt weird given that this was written by the writer of Shadowbringers. It gave me the impression that his scenes, while short and weird, may be little clues, little puzzle pieces, leading up to something bigger. It felt like Ishikawa was trying to go somewhere with him. Even his new name in Latin, "viator", means traveller, wayfarer, peregrinator, etc. I get that it was given in the context of Zenos being banished from Garlemald but, there are other words in Latin that only mean "banished" or "exiled". FFXIV doesn't use words lightly and words themselves can and often times are clues. So maybe Zenos is going on his own journey, that will give him in-depth development and redemption.

And yeah, good points you've made. You can't rush a good story, and you need to lay the framework beforehand. That reminds me of something else. Apparently Yoshi-P really loves mystery/detective novels/books where you are fed lots of details and clues that lead to something bigger down the road; and he said he tried to do the same in FFXIV, create mysteries by sprinkling details and clues along the way. So I hope this was done with Zenos as well.

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Originally Posted by Elysidelphi

Again, when I say I want Ishikawa to bring him back, I do not want him back just so he could do nothing, yet again. As for a redemption arc, Zenos could be given redeeming qualities, he could develop more. Personality is not static. It changes. Thus, Zenos could learn and grow and change and earn his redemption. And if written by Ishikawa it wouldn't feel at all like fan fiction. Maybe she did want to do more with Zenos, but because she had to focus on wrapping up a huge story with many other characters, she didn't have the time or resources to also develop Zenos. Unless Ishikawa herself comes out and tells us that Zenos is dead and done and never coming back and she doesn't want to write him anymore, all we can do here is speculate. And in my case, hope.

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If you are forced into giving a character redeeming qualities four years after they are introduced to a franchise, then you are completely redesigning that character on a fundamental level—which means that it was a poor character from the beginning, and haven’t you spent this entire thread arguing otherwise? If you are going to fundamentally change a character, then you should probably just create a new character that already has these qualities innate to them. You are asking for, essentially, a character retcon for Zenos. At which point, well, would you even be able to call this new character “Zenos” to begin with?

Everything you post in this thread is falling into the sunk cost fallacy. Just because he was wasted potential doesn’t mean that we need to keep bringing him back and shoving him down people’s throats for the sake of not making him a waste. If you want to explore his backstory, you can 100% do that without bringing him back to life for a third time. The implications for Endwalker—and the reason why they ended it in 6.0 versus 6.3—is because they were ready to close this chapter and move on to newer ones. New worlds; new villains. We really don’t need to keep rehashing the same ones.

In my opinion, bringing Zenos back for a third time would be akin to making Final Fantasy: Lightning Zenos Returns.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

If you are forced into giving a character redeeming qualities four years after they are introduced to a franchise, then you are completely redesigning that character on a fundamental level—which means that it was a poor character from the beginning, and haven’t you spent this entire thread arguing otherwise? If you are going to fundamentally change a character, then you should probably just create a new character that already has these qualities innate to them. You are asking for, essentially, a character retcon for Zenos. At which point, well, would you even be able to call this new character “Zenos” to begin with?

Everything you post in this thread is falling into the sunk cost fallacy. Just because he was wasted potential doesn’t mean that we need to keep bringing him back and shoving him down people’s throats for the sake of not making him a waste. If you want to explore his backstory, you can 100% do that without bringing him back to life for a third time. The implications for Endwalker—and the reason why they ended it in 6.0 versus 6.3—is because they were ready to close this chapter and move on to newer ones. New worlds; new villains. We really don’t need to keep rehashing the same ones.

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I have spent this entire thread saying over and over again that Zenos was never given proper development. If that makes him a poor character in others' eyes, so be it. In my eyes, he was always wasted potential.
I definitely don't want Zenos to be redesigned from the ground up, he already has personality traits that I'd want them to keep for him, as well as abilities, physical traits, etc.

I am not asking for a character retcon for Zenos. I am asking for him to be developed properly, either in a redemption arc (because personality is fluid, and people can learn and change) or be kept as a villain or made into an anti-hero, but again, with actual stuff to do, with an in-depth story.

For me personally it wouldn't be fulfilling to explore his backstory with him being dead, given everything done with him so far, which wasn't much. So no, I want to explore his backstory with him alive.
Endwalker closed the Hydaelyn and Zodiark arc. Everything else was left open to some degree or another.

Besides Zenos, there are many other characters without proper developments such as Unukalhai, Cylva, Lahabrea, Elidibus, the other Sundered Ascians, etc. Just because they are old characters they shouldn't be ignored or forgotten about.

You can move on to new world, have new villains and still explore older characters. It isn't mutually exclusive.

Anyway, I did not make this thread to argue about Zenos or to convince people of anything in particular. I am actually hoping that someone at Square Enix actually sees this thread, that hopefully Ishikawa is made aware of the fact that there are people who still want more of Zenos and who genuinely believe he has potential and deserves more. If my thread can help with that, I'd be very happy.

I get that Zenos is a very divisive character and there are many who hate him and want him gone for good. I'm not trying to change their minds. They can keep both their hatred and their desires to have him gone for good. I'll keep my own hopes as well.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

You should not take statements out of context. I was clearly discussing why something like a redemption arc would not work for Zenos and how unsympathetic of a character he is with that statement—but you chose to omit all of that. That said, both have qualities that Zenos does not: character development and depth. In addition to having enough redeeming qualities that a redemption arc wouldn’t feel like some poorly written fan fiction.

It’s just staggering how blindly defensive some people get of this character. I can’t really understand it, because he’s had 2 expansions and done less in them than some characters have done in a handful of cutscenes. There’s too much blind defense for him that kind of adds to the entire meme. He truly is the Draco in Leather Pants trope the more I read this thread. Stop painting him as a victim when he is very clearly not a victim. He’s been completely complacent in his blatant disregard for anyone and everyone but himself.

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I'm sorry I took that out of context, but I've seen this argument quite enough: "Oh you can't redeem him because he wanted to destroy the world and kill people, and he's evil and bad".

He does not have qualities that could redeem him and make him into a Scion, for example, for that I agree, but as I have said before: he has all the personality and background to be an anti-hero. All of it.
I am not painting him as a victim, I am saying he was once a villain and he can become an anti-hero. I'm saying he has all the potential to be a great character, not a good guy, but still a great character.

If people are blindly defensive, you're being blindly dismissive of all that the character can still bring to the table. You're saying that the character should be trashed just because he didn't do anything big and meaninful in two expansions, while Ascians were the absolute same for ARR, HW and SB. Ascians were plain boring, just going "oh lord zodiark hohoho please come back lord zodiark, yes, let's summon primals to bring back lord zodiark". And then came shadowbringers and we were struck by "oh... maybe there's more to ascians than just making beast tribes summon primals".

You're saying that they have "qualities that zenos does not", but you're saying it NOW, after they had their redemption arcs, lol. I don't think you'd say Ascians had development and depth back in stormblood or even half of shadowbringers. We didn't know Emet-Selch had solid, loving reasons until we reached Amaurot, the last zone of shadowbringers.
I don't think you're being fair at your judgement when you say one character is more valid than the other just because they already had their development arcs. He's still in the middle, if not the start of his. Again, he will never be seen as an actual good guy like Ancients were, but that's not his role either.

I'm not being defensive, I just think you have the wrong perspective on the thing.

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Originally Posted by Equitable_Remedy

I didn't read OP or 90% of this thread, but here's the bottom line: Zenos needs to just be done as he hasn't been relevant since Stormblood. The final fight with him was pretty good, though.

Zenos was the weakest part of this expansion by far; even his tenuous relevance wasn't utilized much at all. That being said, it's over now, and we can move on.

Forge ahead!

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This. I want him to stay dead.

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Originally Posted by NyannCat

I'm sorry I took that out of context, but I've seen this argument quite enough: "Oh you can't redeem him because he wanted to destroy the world and kill people, and he's evil and bad".

He does not have qualities that could redeem him and make him into a Scion, for example, for that I agree, but as I have said before: he has all the personality and background to be an anti-hero. All of it.
I am not painting him as a victim, I am saying he was once a villain and he can become an anti-hero. I'm saying he has all the potential to be a great character, not a good guy, but still a great character.

If people are blindly defensive, you're being blindly dismissive of all that the character can still bring to the table. You're saying that the character should be trashed just because he didn't do anything big and meaninful in two expansions, while Ascians were the absolute same for ARR, HW and SB. Ascians were plain boring, just going "oh lord zodiark hohoho please come back lord zodiark, yes, let's summon primals to bring back lord zodiark". And then came shadowbringers and we were struck by "oh... maybe there's more to ascians than just making beast tribes summon primals".

You're saying that they have "qualities that zenos does not", but you're saying it NOW, after they had their redemption arcs, lol. I don't think you'd say Ascians had development and depth back in stormblood or even half of shadowbringers. We didn't know Emet-Selch had solid, loving reasons until we reached Amaurot, the last zone of shadowbringers.
I don't think you're being fair at your judgement when you say one character is more valid than the other just because they already had their development arcs. He's still in the middle, if not the start of his. Again, he will never be seen as an actual good guy like Ancients were, but that's not his role either.

I'm not being defensive, I just think you have the wrong perspective on the thing.

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Yeah, well put.

I remember back in ARR, HW and SB whenever I was coming across Ascians, I never once imagined that they would have the depth given to them in Shadowbringers. I was thinking that there must be more to them, but I never expected all the revelations from Shadowbringers, which is why I adored that expansion and what it did with the Ascian arc.

And you make an excellent point: the Ascians were built up in ARR, HW and SB, just to be explained and given depth in Shadowbringers. It took them years to give the Ascians the depth they have now. So I hope to god they do something similar with Zenos as well.

FFXIV is a huge game with a complex story and with many characters, so I hope that Ishikawa just had to focus on wrapping up the Hydaelyn and Zodiark arc which is why she couldn't touch the other characters and focus properly on them. And maybe the reason Zenos wasn't given a proper development back in Stormblood is because he was always meant to be a long-term character and appear in several expansions, slowly building up his story, with clues and hints along the way just like Yoshi-P likes it.

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Originally Posted by Elysidelphi

Exactly. Well said. He definitely has feelings. And yeah, it's very likely that he's extremely depressed. And numbing one's feelings and hiding them are defence mechanisms used very frequently by very many people so I could see him do that as well.

Thank you for caring about Zenos and wanting more of him! I feel less alone in this now.

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Zenos is a interesting character with the Blood Knight archetype. I feel there is just a loud vocal minority that hates him.

That said Emet Selch is much more popular across the board. One does not simply make the top 10 FF characters in JP polls.

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Originally Posted by Elysidelphi

And maybe the reason Zenos wasn't given a proper development back in Stormblood is because he was always meant to be a long-term character and appear in several expansions, slowly building up his story, with clues and hints along the way just like Yoshi-P likes it.

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I think Zenos didn't get any development in Stormblood because it was not the goal of Stormblood. Stormblood was NOT about Zenos, even though he was the final boss. Stormblood was about all the wars and the turning point of the Eorzean Alliance against Garlemald. It was about retaking Ala Mhigo and Doma, and striking back.

Zenos in stormblood was just like Thordan in Heavensward. Thordan was the final boss, but the expansion was much more about Hraesvelgr, Nidhogg and the dragons than it was about Thordan, even though Thordan had a role in it as antagonist, technically.

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Originally Posted by NyannCat

I think Zenos didn't get any development in Stormblood because it was not the goal of Stormblood. Stormblood was NOT about Zenos, even though he was the final boss. Stormblood was about all the wars and the turning point of the Eorzean Alliance against Garlemald. It was about retaking Ala Mhigo and Doma, and striking back.

Zenos in stormblood was just like Thordan in Heavensward. Thordan was the final boss, but the expansion was much more about Hraesvelgr, Nidhogg and the dragons than it was about Thordan, even though Thordan had a role in it as antagonist, technically.

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True. But then, why do you think that Zenos was not left dead at the end of Stormblood, the way Thordan was left dead once defeated?