New summoner is unacceptable

There is also the chance that since the job has fundamentally changed that your performance was affected by the newness of it. Goodness knows mine was. It is inevitable that you won't be the master of something straight away. In any case the chaos has been fun for me so far in the...instances I've been in on my main.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

There is also the chance that since the job has fundamentally changed that your performance was affected by the newness of it. Goodness knows mine was. It is inevitable that you won't be the master of something straight away. In any case the chaos has been fun for me so far in the...instances I've been in on my main.

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Don't project your experience onto others lol, you can master new SMN in like 5 minutes.

The only thing that might not come naturally is:

To only use Ifrit when you can stand still in melee range for ~5 seconds.
Summon Ifrit and Titan in the middle of a pack if you are in an AoE situation.
If not progressing, use Swiftcast for Ifrit (Ruby Rite or something).

For the second point, I drew a diagram:

https://i.ibb.co/1mSkkF7/nogood.png
https://i.ibb.co/3ChjxyK/good.png

You want Titan/Ifrit to move towards the target of the Summon attack in a way that, when they touch the enemy's max melee radius, they're in range of as many other mobs as possible.

You don't have to worry about Slipstream as much because the AoE's center is on the mob's center instead of the Egi.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

Snip

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People who played Summoner before and gave at least 2 sh*ts about the class should realize that when we summon, we use the same (but without dots and puddles) spells as when we hit Enkindle before. So Unless you just rolled the class for the sake of it, you should know this by default.

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Originally Posted by Escalon

People who played Summoner before and gave at least 2 sh*ts about the class should realize that when we summon, we use the same (but without dots and puddles) spells as when we hit Enkindle before. So Unless you just rolled the class for the sake of it, you should know this by default.

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What the hell are you even arguing against lol?

I don't hate the new Summoner, but I do find it eerily simple, almost unsettlingly so, like when I first unlocked Dancer. It feels like: "No, that can't be all there is. I must be missing some key component, misinterpreting a tooltip, or something. It can't be this easy..."

Granted, I'm only 67 on my SMN, so I have no idea what comes later. But right now, I think all I do is... just hit the buttons when they're available? Possibly with the exception of Ifrit-egi's Gemshine ability, because it has a cast time and that feels bad.

I do miss the DoTs though. The DoTs were fun, and satisfying to spread to a big group and let 'em tick away. Admittedly, the devs are probably saving me from my own bad habits as well because I would just instinctively take time to place DoTs even on any random single monster that wouldn't live to see them do much damage.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

You want Titan/Ifrit to move towards the target of the Summon attack in a way that, when they touch the enemy's max melee radius, they're in range of as many other mobs as possible.

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Great diagram. That's why I'm having problems with titan's aoe missing so many mobs. I guess that's how it always worked. We just never used Titan in anything that mattered.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

What the hell are you even arguing against lol?

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Oh no no no, Im not arguing against lol, I just threw some extra information to some people!

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Originally Posted by Escalon

Oh no no no, Im not arguing against lol, I just threw some extra information to some people!

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Nowhere did anyone say that the problem with current SMN is that Demi-summon actions are on the same button as Ruin. The problem is that by removing way too many skills and not adding enough skills the Ruin spam is much more pronounced than ever to the point of being truly ridiculous. You don't even need to weave in like 70% of your opener. So this is not the clever comeback you think it is.

It just feels unfinished. I like the removal of DoTs and I like the proper summons, but it just feels barebones and incredibly simple.

I agree with people that it's a good foundation for building a job, the problem is that it shouldn't just be a foundation, it should be a finished job. Shiny summon animations don't really make up for the extremely simple gameplay of it.

I also think arguments about the damage are beside the point. It's not suddenly going to be a great fun job if it does top damage. The damage isn't the main problem, potencies are a lot easier to adjust than finishing an unfinished job.

Played at the dummy longer, still like the shift to far more primal related items but that is a discussion of theme- very purty (which I've always been open on how that is done, many ways, just that it 'is' done). On gameplay though I certainly could see adding something to break the routine, could feel good. Though at least on the dummy I wasn't bored.

Doesn't even need more buttons necessarily even, given that the job is already a job of mutations (just mutate another unused ability lol), but like thinking of bard / dancer mechanics with procs (mage ballad / feather mechanic)- where you step out of the strict formula here and there to make better decisions. Something to add some extra variation (without hopefully going back to old issues of too many clashing systems). Maybe bringing the astral flow concepts in sooner, and that cherry on top variation. With the given foundation I think they can achieve that though.

Honestly one thing that caught my eye was we still have that cure lol, maybe they can replace it with a carbuncle theme support cure with cooldown or something (not important, just caught my eye XD).

Given how the Summon attacks interact below 90 SMN will perform best IMO as a melee caster ironically.

...

I'm a little devastated, to be honest. I've been maining SMN since Stormblood, especially as healing began to grow very simplistic and one-dimensional with each expansion pack release. When DRK underwent a similar streamlining, and after having found the other DPS classes boring or just simply not satisfying to play, I always took refuge in SMN. Classes like DNC and RDM bore me to tears, though I didn't begrudge them because I know some people do enjoy and take comfort in more basic rotations; it just made me appreciate the challenge and rewards that SMN offered for playing well all the more. I liked juggling different aspects of the class and planning ahead to optimise movement with damage. I liked its complexity, I liked how satisfying the trances felt when I played properly, and learning how to align cooldowns and DoTs with each new fight. I liked the need for adaptation and experimentation. It wasn't perfect, but it filled a need for a job with more layers than mindless button mashing and kept me playing when everything else was picked apart and dumbed down.

It took me about ten minutes to learn the new 6.0 rotation, and I could have cried. The new gemshine mechanic is enjoyable for approximately two minutes until you realise it's just an affected Ruin button, and the game handholds you into each trance and takes away any sense of satisfaction from playing them. I had to opt out of a low level dungeon because now that even DoTs are taken away, it's literally a case of one button spam for a large chunk of the lower tier content and I couldn't bear it for twenty minutes. I am beyond tired of Ifrit, Garuda and Titan, and after their NM fights, their HM fights, the EX fights, the Eden fights, and over 6 years of these Egis, I never want to see them again. We now have Bahamut and Phoenix, is there a lore reason they've never been updated? No Ramuh or Shiva? Different elements? No other primals out of any of ones we've fought? Not only is it now painfully simplified, it feels as if thematically we've been thrown back in time as well.

As I said, I don't mind simpler jobs at all, but what I don't understand is why there cannot remain some classes for those who enjoy more of a challenge and more depth. I am all for opening up the game to accomodate casual players, but to strip each and every class down to suit the most basic of needs is incredibly frustrating and alienating to those who look to gameplay as more than just a vehicle for showing off glamours or an accompaniment to a Netflix marathon. For the first time since I started playing, I'm at a loss, because now nothing appeals to me to play at all and it feels mindless and tedious playing for any length of time. I don't know how Sage or Reaper plays, but at this point, after watching my third job be stripped down and sold for parts, I'm not filled with enthusiasm to go and find out.

There seems to be no small amount of people who enjoy these changes, and though I find it a little baffling, that's a good thing, I suppose. One player will hardly be missed, but given the the time and energy I've spent on this game in the past, I'm saddended at how much the FFXIV I knew and loved has changed in this and so many other respects. Ah, well. I hope those who are happy enjoy Endwalker in my stead.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

New summoner is unacceptable...

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It's funny how people complain about the smallest things.

For me, ShB's PLD was disappointing to play and is still boring to play in Endwalker, I just moved on to another job that was more fun to play.

Ask yourself the right questions. Often it's the screaming minority that you hear the most, the majority might be happy with the change, and won't say so.

Should the gameplay be changed for the sake of a whining minority? That would be opening the door to any player request, not always legitimate.

There are many other things more important than the fact that you don't like your job anymore.

Apparently, it has become a way of life for many to complain... I don't like this thing change, I demand it... This is a scandal...


Really ?

Some people will always be mad no Matter what you do.

I think it is beneficial to have a more simple rotation. This game has a caster shortage. There are way more physical Ranged DPS compared to caster dps.

If you want to play a caster in raids you had 3 options
- play selfish turret dps (BLM) -> hard for beginners
- play 2min opener SMN -> hard for beginners
Or
- play rezzmage -> easy for beginners but who wants to rezz all the time?

So maybe with the New SMN we have a caster in between and people will likely play it more compared to the old SMN. Because it is more accessible now and a good Alternative for RDM

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Unacceptable? You know what was actually unacceptable? The disaster of a job we got in 5.0.

Today is the most fun I've ever had with Summoner, and doubtless the overwhelming majority of people feel the same. If I had not gone on to the forums to ask a question about something else entirely I would have missed this kind of complaining. Goodness. The happy people right now are by and large silent because we're all enjoying the game (provided we can log in). Why is it always the forums trying to ruin everyone's mood?

Regardless, the internal metrics will speak for themselves. For every person that went on here to complain there are 100+ people that went out to try out/boost/start the EW MSQ as Summoner because of these changes.

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FACTS. The forum is an echo chamber of try hards most of the time. Because obviously to the whiners here, anything someone else doesn't like, must mean it is too difficult for them, therefore I am pro gamer because i like it.

The amount of whine about Monk and Summoner has been outlandish. Especially because as you said, most people are actually enjoying it and aint got time to forum post. This is just the truth.

In the End(walker), Summoner is just the same as the Shb version: a stance-user.


I want a summoner who has to manage both of himself and the summon, know when to call your pet to attack and when to call it back and put it on standby to protect it from harm's way. In exchange, the summon cares for the summoner's well-being. A mutual relationship.


Let's me give an example how a summoner's master and pet relationship done well: Blade and Soul. While I hate this game with a passion, it managed to make the class feel like a master-pet class. Your pet has HP, can be killed and you must manage it so it won't stand in the puddle and the AoE path. If your pet die, you lose half of your utilities that will greatly hinder your ability to survive the mechanic. If you keep it alive, there is an array of things you have it do for you: it is your CCer that can do the CC independently even if you can't yourself; it is your makeshift tanker when you need to avoid being targeted; it shields you when you is near-death so you can recover till the bitter end; your can send it to aid other near-death people; if someone is dead-cold, you can send it to rez while you continue to DPS and handle mechanic; it can run to you to rez you when you tank the floor; as a last-ditch effort, it sacrifice itself to rez the whole party.


FF14 now? You summon a HP-less carbuncle, that will change to different bigger summons, that are also Hp-less. Everything is just a big visual. I don't care about how simple it becomes. Sure, it may be designed to be close to the traditional FF summons that go out, throw a big animation, the go off, but the only thing I know is that summoner is still not a pet class I want.


Even other classes with "pet" are also stance users, like Scholar, Machinist and Dark Knight. Zero relationship between you and the pet



The only thing that is closer to a pet now is your Chocobo, which is dumb, weak and gimmicky. You raise it not for it to become stronger to help you, but for the chocobo glam. Or cuz you're bored and have no better things to do.



I hope that if FF14 ever does a Beastmaster, it will be a proper pet user class. Not another stance-user where every "beast attack" is just animation. I don't mind it is being a limited job if it has to be one to function differently.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

Sounds great. Can't wait to try it this evening.

We all knew it was going to be a LOT more simplistic due to complaints and memes about 2 minute openers etc. right?

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I'm all for simpler jobs, as long as they lower the gcd for said job to compensate.

Simpler isn't bad. But there's a balance to be struck. It really feels like it has a high skill floor and a low skill ceiling. The end result is just boring. I wouldn't dream to make arguments that the 5.0 was perfect. It was rewarding though. It had variety in mechanics that allowed a skilled player to rock.

Instead they copied and pasted the phoenix mechanics across the whole class with minor tweaks here and there. I wish they would have taken a scalpel to this job instead of using a saw.

Long-time lurker here, been browsing the forums and I must say it's kinda impressive how adverse people are to job complexity whether it be Monk or Summoner. He'll even bard.

EDIT

To further clarify simple isn't necessarily bad, but But I feel that having some thought going into maximizing your output is engaging and will keep you from going absolutely braindead.

I want something straightforward. Not simple. By straightforward I mean it should be easy to see how all the pieces of the job fit together. And I'll admit. 5.0 summoner wasn't very straightforward (though not as bad as some people in this thread make it out to be). This new summoner is simple. Simple to the point its kinda boring. I can't even say it really has an opener.

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Originally Posted by JuicyHeals

To further clarify simple isn't necessarily bad, but But I feel that having some thought going into maximizing your output is engaging and will keep you from going absolutely braindead.

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This is my problem rn. With no job mechanic to define the rotation's identity, my eyes are glazing over while the game plays me, instead of the other way around.

All these elements on my job gauge and still the only thing I'm looking at is a cooldown on my bars. :T
This isn't summoning, this is waiting and cleaning.

They took a circular saw to the job and replaced it with something that is far less enjoyable IMO. All the old bugs are still there. The idiotic AI behavior is if anything now even worse. Previously you would have to account for Bahamut's travel time and ability delay every time you moved. Now you have account for the fact that the stupid primal summons will have to run into melee range before pooping-out their AoE as soon as they hit min distance. Because their abilities are targeted on themselves instead of the mob they will miss every other member of the group unless you specifically target the one that is farthest away. You never had to do that with Ifrit or Garuda egi or on the big nukes on Bahamut or Phoenix because they were targeted on the mob. So they eviscerated the job just to make it even more annoying and micro-manage-y to play properly.

EDIT - I feel I have to say this, I don't like to complain, I don't like to hyperbole, I just go along, but this has literally killed any desire I have to play EW. 5.0 SMN was my favorite DPS job, I haven't even touched the first MSQ quest and just queuing for old raids or sitting around the FC house with no motivation to move forward. I don't even feel like logging in today, maybe that was the intent, to reduce queue times.

I love the new summoner. First of all, I am indeed a Summoner. I summon things. all the time. and i have all these cool looking spells. Who cares about "how complex it is". Something can be simple and still be amazing!

I love these changes!!

And I do not.
For a good reason that I don't feel like my summon is even doing anything and the epicness of fighting alongside a Summon is now long gone.
"B-but we actually summon things now!" Wow, I feel like such a massive impact from them! Oh wait, no. I don't even feel like they're there except for a button becoming glowy and changes it's colours a bit. Wow, that's so amazing! I totally feel like I've summoned something! Oh wait, I don't.


I can't wait for a lot of people here to realise that it's not as great once the new shiny coating wears off and we see what it actually is, a hollow shell of a job that's simply incomplete. The problems that were there are still there and they frankly did a worse job on the whole summoning thing than initially. There's no style to it, no flair. No actual calling forth a summon except for the Carbuncle.

Choosing branching combos definitely feels a lot better than sticking with 1 egi stance per fight. Of course I'd love to see new trances/gem summons for Shiva/Leviathan/Ramuh etc but right now the gameplay loop feels great to start off with. If I have to choose between this and the "complexity" of old summoner I'm choosing this every time.

I'm not wild about the changes.

Mind you, I'm not a raider. I'm not super great at the game. I don't care about the dots. I do care about how it feels to use it though.

Right now it feels like what I do is summon bahamut and then use bahamut flavored ruin and outburst a lot. Then I get to pick from cherry, lemon, or lime flavored ruin and outburst. Then I get pheonix flavored ruin and outburst. Yeah, we get deathflare, Akh Morn, and Revelation, but they all do pretty much the same thing. The latter two even have the same numbers. Sprinkle in energy drain and fester/painflare.

Is there more to it than that? Yeah, a bit. And I'm not 90 yet, so there is a little bit I dun have, but I know what is coming and know its not a massive gamechanger. I'm not saying that older summoner was the best, but it at least felt like I had a little more variety in what I was doing. The solution to ruin spam isn't reskinned ruin spam with adjusted numbers.

Not that there aren't things I like. Getting out lots of attacks really fast can be fun, but less so when they all feel samey.

There is some valid feedback about the egi's and their issues regarding targeting and needing to run up to smack things causing delays.

I disagree. I’m happy to main SMN again. Stormblood and shadowbringers killed it fo me. ARR/HW was awesome dot mage, then it went into pure tedium. Now it’s fun again and while I love my dot mage this feels more like an actual summoner.

I'm having a lot of fun with it. Way better than what it was before. Now just give me amazing battle armour like what DRG, PLD and DRK or even MNK get and i will be happy.

I'm eager to see how the player numbers look after a bit into the raid tier, once that new car smell wears off. I'd bet there's a plummet.

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Originally Posted by Rae88

It's not that the game is turning easy but rather Square Enix are pushing the complexity to optional content and increasing the accessibility of the mandatory content like your rotation and things. IMO anyway :)

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The problem is that many people enjoy execution complexity and mastering a job. Once you learn a fight's mechanics (or if you're going through easier content like roulettes) the only thing left is trying to squeeze more output from your rotation.

Why should entire jobs be designed around "complex" gameplay that many felt were just bad controls and weird mechanics? That is exactly how you turn people off and lose them to other jobs. If you want complexity the optional content is there, and you can do that on any job you want.

Some jobs should be complex because they can be designed that way and yes people do enjoy it. Don't like complexity? Play another job. That's the great thing about having multiple jobs available.

1. This job feels very straightforward now, like there is no execution error or little optimization to be had.
2. There are a lot of oddly dead buttons that stay on your hotbar. Why for example do the summon Direct/AoE nukes need their own transforming buttons on top of ruin and tri-disaster? While this is a very slim cast bar, it also vexes me in how you can't put the "important buttons" in the "important places. In MMOs with stances, you typically swap out hotbars, which would be perfect.
3. The animations and effects feel so epic, and every class should be designed to have this visual impact!
4. I wouldn't want to main 6.0 SMN, as I feel like it would be very boring to farm raids with.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Why should entire jobs be designed around "complex" gameplay that many felt were just bad controls and weird mechanics? That is exactly how you turn people off and lose them to other jobs. If you want complexity the optional content is there, and you can do that on any job you want.

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Because savage encounter design complexity and job rotation complexity are two different things.

Savages aren't as interesting on my healer compared to my DPS jobs, despite being the same "complex" content. To make it analogous: you don't like the overly complex job designs, but giving you very simple dungeons wouldn't cancel that out.

And the game already had "complex" and "simple" DPS rotation jobs, but taking an existing job and changing the type will upset people.

Feels great to me..

But hitng multiple buttons in an mmo brings me no further enjoyment.

But hey sorry for your loss tons of other jobs

You're right that they are two different things. One is thrust upon you and another is optional and you can seek it out at your pleasure. What a concept.

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Originally Posted by Samhain1983

I love the new summoner. First of all, I am indeed a Summoner. I summon things. all the time. and i have all these cool looking spells. Who cares about "how complex it is". Something can be simple and still be amazing!

I love these changes!!

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I personally hate the changes but yes smn now does fit more in lines with what a smn is. Though personally I no longer have a class that fits what I like. I did like the dot management and personally wish dots played more of a part in their playstyle.

As it stands for those that like that style of play we currently have nothing outside Bard but that will be short lived since dots are going away for them too most likely. Dots can be fun and engaging they should not run it.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Why should entire jobs be designed around "complex" gameplay that many felt were just bad controls and weird mechanics? That is exactly how you turn people off and lose them to other jobs. If you want complexity the optional content is there, and you can do that on any job you want.

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Because as others have stated they didn't fix anything and added new problems. It's just new bad (worse IMO) mechanics and the same old bad controls. The pet AI is just as dumb as before only now they just poof into being, poop-out their ability and disappear. On top of that they have a travel time AND their abilities are centered on them instead of your target making landing any sort of AoE on a group an exercise in frustration. You still have latency issues, you still have clipping issues. So what exactly did they fix? They just gutted the job and replaced it with something mechanically unfun and left all the previous bugs still in place.

Or I dunno just play another game. The entire player base isn't chasing 100s.

Log in perform average collect your loot come back when you have more to do. Seems pretty straightforward and something even Yoshi said was perfectly fine.

There's a ton of straightforward jobs. The entire prang is basically ez pz. Rdm and Blm are pretty chill now. Reaper is pretty chill. Pretty much all the tanks are chillaxation.

Summoner was basically an outliers with it being overly complex. New summoner is about on par with all the other others now. You might argue a few complex jobs are still out but those appear to be getting tuned down over time.