Extreme over correction in ToS? New ToS is going to kill pugging

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Originally Posted by Handsareus

Its not even "its [player name]'s fault" (which is kinda a problem) its the fact that "you make alot of mistakes" is bannable. wtf were they thinking, this is the nicest way to correcting someone if they are specifically wiping a group and arent understanding the mech or just generally making alot of mistakes. "why are we wiping?" "someone keeps clipping me in light rampant" "who?" "so and so" "this is the 5th time so and so" "You make alot of mistakes" *banned* wtf?? literally in a static where we have dps fucking up on light rampant and we have been on that mech for 4 days. they know they are fucking up and we keep telling them "pay attention" "stop clipping ppl with proteans" until now they finally corrected themselves, so now we are moving on cuz we keep telling them "they are making alot of mistakes". some ppl are just slow learners or hard headed and need to have it drilled into their head. the fact you cant say it in a nice way in PF is beyond me

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Linking directly from the page,

"even if you do not use direct words, blaming and attacking others, such as "It's [player name]'s fault that we wiped" or "You really make a lot of mistakes," or rephrasing insulting words into any other form is also prohibited."

It's prohibited. You might not get banned depending on how often the GMs get reports on you and how many penalties you've accrued over time. Also, why would you tell someone "you really make a lot of mistakes" or "it's your fault we wiped"? You aren't Professor Raid, you aren't going to teach anyone how to play right. Just leave the group and find new randoms to play with if you don't like how someone is handling mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Darkobra

You use Cactpot. GG.

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What does Cactpot have to do with anything? What do you have against MGP?

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Originally Posted by KOPF

Anecdotally I gave some of the acceptable phrases to couple of my friends who share my nationality and they thought them as condescending and passive aggressive. Also I can say that in EU there are very different interpretations on what is perceived as the polite way to give and receive advice. And of course if someone insults or acts deliberately belligerent, it should be worthy of a report.

I haven't had a warning or ban to my knowledge in 8 years, so most likely nothing will change, but these clarifications do seem to be directed to Japanese and their culture. This coupled with some very disheartening allegations of how Square Enix EU customer support seems to enforce these rules (Sorriow case) makes it ripe for exploitation from all sides. Hopefully it does not happen, but I'd rather not had the option for that occurring in the first place.

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Not to mention, sometimes that context... it's so important.

I had to look over every example a few times, but I believe I finally understand what gave me my recent suspension for "griefing" despite my lack of content being done for a pretty long time. You cannot threaten someone with a kick, which I had an incident of relation in Novice Network. We had a player, a mentor no less, forcing an unwanted topic in the newbie chat about whether calling people the R word is a perfectly acceptable and normal thing to do (they were arguing for it too...) and everyone was telling them to stop. I told them if they continued that behavior, because this is not the chat to argue this, and everyone is telling them to stop, they would be kicked. To which they removed me instantly since, well, they were a mentor.

But I still threatened to kick them for their behavior. To quote an example of "Don't do this" ... "I can have you kicked from this group at any time." Arguably, I fit that catagory, as I showed a threat that I could remove them from the chat at any point over what they were doing.

... Except if look at the context, I was warning them that their behavior was completely not okay. At all. And I took the punishment for it. How does that tell me to do anything different from just removing them instead of trying to communicate. You know... The POINT of these?

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Originally Posted by Floortank

Linking directly from the page,

"even if you do not use direct words, blaming and attacking others, such as "It's [player name]'s fault that we wiped" or "You really make a lot of mistakes," or rephrasing insulting words into any other form is also prohibited."

It's prohibited. You might not get banned depending on how often the GMs get reports on you and how many penalties you've accrued over time. Also, why would you tell someone "you really make a lot of mistakes" or "it's your fault we wiped"? You aren't Professor Raid, you aren't going to teach anyone how to play right. Just leave the group and find new randoms to play with if you don't like how someone is handling mechanics.

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Now I kinda want to make a character named Professor Raid LOL Sorry, not to take away from the meaning of your post, which I agree with...I just chuckled about that, is all! LOL

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

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https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d5/a6...486861753e.gif

Take my advice people: don't chat! Not like I haven't been saying this for years. Also, SE, bandaid fixes like DC bans aren't going to fix this, let's just remove the system (mentorship) altogether - including the NN.

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Originally Posted by KOPF

Anecdotally I gave some of the acceptable phrases to couple of my friends who share my nationality and they thought them as condescending and passive aggressive. Also I can say that in EU there are very different interpretations on what is perceived as the polite way to give and receive advice. And of course if someone insults or acts deliberately belligerent, it should be worthy of a report.

I haven't had a warning or ban to my knowledge in 8 years, so most likely nothing will change, but these clarifications do seem to be directed to Japanese and their culture. This coupled with some very disheartening allegations of how Square Enix EU customer support seems to enforce these rules (Sorriow case) makes it ripe for exploitation from all sides. Hopefully it does not happen, but I'd rather not had the option for that occurring in the first place.

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Couple of points



1- Regarding the EU - that's an interesting point, there could be a concern in some cases for localization, personally I don't see that here, but I don't play on the EU servers so theer could be a very good reason to adjust the examples for them.

2-The tone of those phrases may seem a bit stilted however I also believe that many people tend to be very quick to use or interpret words like "passive aggressive" or "toxic" way too easily, which in term terrifies people to the point that they won't go beyond a simple "hi" or "/".

I believe that SE was forced to provide these example because a certain element simply does not know or care how to communicate to other people, nor would they care to correct the behaviour otherwise. Which is a pretty sad commentary on that element, however it is what it is. For many players, they are not affected .

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Originally Posted by KOPF

Anecdotally I gave some of the acceptable phrases to couple of my friends who share my nationality and they thought them as condescending and passive aggressive. Also I can say that in EU there are very different interpretations on what is perceived as the polite way to give and receive advice. And of course if someone insults or acts deliberately belligerent, it should be worthy of a report.

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I agree. For me as non-native English speaker direct and to the point advice sounds normal, while overly polite language sounds passive-aggressive and insincere.

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Originally Posted by KOPF

Anecdotally I gave some of the acceptable phrases to couple of my friends who share my nationality and they thought them as condescending and passive aggressive. Also I can say that in EU there are very different interpretations on what is perceived as the polite way to give and receive advice. And of course if someone insults or acts deliberately belligerent, it should be worthy of a report.

I haven't had a warning or ban to my knowledge in 8 years, so most likely nothing will change, but these clarifications do seem to be directed to Japanese and their culture. This coupled with some very disheartening allegations of how Square Enix EU customer support seems to enforce these rules (Sorriow case) makes it ripe for exploitation from all sides. Hopefully it does not happen, but I'd rather not had the option for that occurring in the first place.

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Not EU, but it's similar over here. Most of their "ok" examples are written in a way that states "I am in the process of starting a beef with someone." Basically the equivalent of talking behind someone's back, but not even that, talking behind someone's back while they're still in the room implying you think they're too stupid to catch on. I literally could never talk like this if I'm trying to communicate with people in good faith. It feels gross to condescend to people like that. :(

I really hope they do another pass at the examples to either use more localized (not translated, localized) examples (Though, with how diverse the non-japanese servers are, that would be quite* the task), or they just drop the the examples that follow strict japanese courtesy norms (talking to people directly vs about people indirectly / stating claims with certainty vs keeping things ambiguous while implying your claims) and just leave the examples at "Don't hold your party-members hostage in a duty because you're being obstinate about a strat/group comp/etc, and don't start a bully campaign, etc" Everything else should be covered by "Don't harass/swear at/name-call/aggressively berate other players" and their new stalking rules.

..and maybe have someone read over the rules pretending they're a troll that will use the language to avoid punishment and deflect it onto others.. 'cause yeah, even if a gm is smart enough to identify that a troll is doing that and won't ban someone the troll reports, that doesn't stop the reportee from having a crummy experience with an emboldened troll.

*american quite, not english quite.

As other have said, the safest bet now is to just not talk at all other than with people with know. With the current twitterlike tendencies of people readily wanting to be offended by something or interpret something negatively, it's just the safest bet.

MMORPGs are inherently social environments. Suggesting to just not talk or communicate is a big ask. The market board is run by (mostly) real human beings. You need cooperation from real humans to complete most content. Unless you have a gigantic free company where everyone intimately knows everyone else, the truth of the matter is that you will eventually need to communicate with someone or some people. It's always safe to flock with your own people, but that expectation is unrealistic to maintain.

I see nothing wrong with these rules, I thought for too long there was a bit of a elitist bent going on with Savage Raids specifically that was causing a lot of problems and Gate-outs.

Maybe this will stop some of that nonsense.

Be nice to people or don't say anything. I've been furious plenty of times in FFXIV and very glad I kept my thoughts to myself. Show a little self control if you want the right to talk. Stop treating interaction like it's something you're owed.


edited aside:

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Originally Posted by ZodiacHeart42

Now I kinda want to make a character named Professor Raid LOL Sorry, not to take away from the meaning of your post, which I agree with...I just chuckled about that, is all! LOL

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Do it :D

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Originally Posted by MPK

..this is going to kill pugging...

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Nope, no change at all.

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1. Expressions that compel a playing style

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Every single point in the clarification was a point that could have already gotten you banned, they just made it more clear as to why. If you complain about how a player plays the game it has always been a violation of the TOS, I have reported plenty of people for it over the years, as it's usually bullying, if you don't like the way someone is playing leave, harping in chat is toxic.

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2. Expressions that attempt to unilaterally exclude someone from the game or content/community, ...

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This has always been their policy, they banned a Twitch Stream over this already. No it does not mean they care about your discord group, but if you are streaming and call someone out in your stream you will find yourself banned.

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3. Expressions that provoke or belittle another person, such as excessive criticism, negation/ridicule

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No passive aggressive bullying, something that could already get you banned, and something I have reported a lot over the years, no change in policy, they just made it more clear.

I don't understand all of the paranoia.

This does not prevent anyone from talking in chat. I do sincerely hope that it make people reflect first, which isn't a bad thing, because it can very difficult to communicate just by chat.

We're already seen that putting into chat "Stance!" (as an example) could be seen as abrupt or a demand if it's done when the group just standing around. However if the healer or the DPS is taking a beating by 3 groups or running with the tank, then that's probably all the typing they can get out.

Basic rule- this is a social game, work with the mindset that you aren't playing with NPCs, there is always a human being behind the screen whether you know them or not, they deserve basic politeness for the time that you're together.

Worst case if you cannot simply deal with someone, or a group, not even to endure a 15 minute dungeon, leave and take the penalty without making a fuss.

Glad this doesn't affect me, because unlike most people, I don't have a rotten attitude towards others over a game.

This Thread
https://pandagif.com/gifs/63kcDBuvm6.gif
Way more entertaining then the Viera Thread.

But in all seriousness. Constructive Criticism, People make mistakes, be HELPFUL to the situation.
Singling people out and being toxic towards them doesn't help anything, and the Persons having issues don't learn from it. They wont improve if you dont Help Them understand.

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Originally Posted by OM3GA-Z3RO

Glad this doesn't affect me, because unlike most people, I don't have a rotten attitude towards others over a game.

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Yet here you are being condescending to others, which was one of the examples given in the ToS modification of untolerable behaviour.

Why do people keep ignoring probably the most blatant example, "don't join this party if you can't do y" when in basically no context should this be bannable, and instead would rather call concerned players assholes and doomposters?

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Originally Posted by Kaliesto

I see nothing wrong with these rules, I thought for too long there was a bit of a elitist bent going on with Savage Raids specifically that was causing a lot of problems and Gate-outs.

Maybe this will stop some of that nonsense.

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quit trolling lmao

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

Why do people keep ignoring probably the most blatant example, "don't join this party if you can't do y" when in basically no context should this be bannable, and instead would rather call concerned players assholes and doomposters?

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Why should anyone call that out? You can keep someone from joining your own private parties in your own private content quite easily. You don't have any right to bar them from public access content.

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Originally Posted by Floortank

Why should anyone call that out? You can keep someone from joining your own private parties in your own private content quite easily. You don't have any right to bar them from public access content.

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Pf isn't public access, duty finder is.
If pf was open to all you would not have things as ilvl restriction / jobs restriction.

https://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...5a085e167f6f70

Clarification for all you Doomsayers out there. Hopefully you guys will calm down.

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Originally Posted by Somnolence

I agree. For me as non-native English speaker direct and to the point advice sounds normal, while overly polite language sounds passive-aggressive and insincere.

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Especially if it's about mistakes. "Some people seem to have trouble staying on the platform" is very passive aggressive. If instead someone told me "you seem to have trouble staying on the platform, Reinha", I would see it as an opportunity to ask how everyone else is doing it.

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Originally Posted by OM3GA-Z3RO

https://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...5a085e167f6f70

Clarification for all you Doomsayers out there. Hopefully you guys will calm down.

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So, it's clarification that it was just clarification of rules that were already in place. Wow!

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

Why do people keep ignoring probably the most blatant example, "don't join this party if you can't do y" when in basically no context should this be bannable, and instead would rather call concerned players assholes and doomposters?

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Because that's a completely false statement. This game isn't rocket science. Everyone, with practice and diligence, can do pretty much anything they want to join a group for. It's bannable because it's always condescending and insulting to suggest to someone that they are incapable of playing the video game that they're currently playing. Also, SE has made it pretty clear that it's not what you say, but how you say it:

Source: https://support.na.square-enix.com/f...la=1&kid=68216

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Example 1
Example of a violation:
"We can only beat [duty/content] by using [something]. You can't do it any other way, so stop doing that!"
Example of a non-violation:
"I think [duty/content] will go more smoothly if we do [something], so I want to try doing it this way, is that okay with everyone?"

Example 2
Example of a violation:
(In response to an opinion) "Your idea is ridiculous, what are you talking about!?."
Example of a non-violation:
(In response to an opinion) "I understand your opinion, but I think I can do better with [something], what do you think?"

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

quit trolling lmao

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Not a troll, I think the revised rules is going to chill out that scene for once.

Don't call me a troll if you don't get why I said "X thing". I never liked the hostile players of that scene, and glad something has been changed to address it.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Especially if it's about mistakes. "Some people seem to have trouble staying on the platform" is very passive aggressive. If instead someone told me "you seem to have trouble staying on the platform, Reinha", I would see it as an opportunity to ask how everyone else is doing it.

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But that will be a ban according to the examples, since that is singling out someone's mistake. But I guess the examples do not matter, since some of them will be okay with context according to Foxclon. From the "Follow Up Regarding Updates to Prohibited Activities in FINAL FANTASY XIV":

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Originally Posted by Foxclon

Rest assured, we do not issue penalties solely based on the fact that a report was filed and will thoroughly investigate the logs for context as necessary before making a decision.

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Except they do since they were examples given as a way for people to realize why they got banned?

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Originally Posted by Foxclon

Based on our experience, there have been many cases where penalized players didn’t understand what they did wrong or what the issue was, so we added many examples to the prohibited activities in hopes of lowering the number of such cases.

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Now English isn't my first language, so I might be misunderstanding it. That's how I read it though. Overall I am way more confused about the examples now than I was before.

Like I have said before in this thread, cultures can have very different perceptions what is considered polite and impolite. Some of the tamest examples they showed weren't even that impolite in my opinion and my country(wo)men, who I talked to agreed with me.

To me for example, if someone said straight up that: "Hey Dolo, you screwed up with lions. Do I need to repeat the mechanic for you?" would be a-ok. Not overly polite, but certainly not impolite either. But from what I gathered some of the examples, that kind of tone would be very much against the rules. Compared with the accepted terms, some of them feel very condescending and passive aggressive to me.

I know though that I am very much culturally on one side of the scale on straightforwardness, so I can and will be more courteous when I speak or write in English and people usually can talk misunderstandings through, but to me some of these rules (now given concrete examples to show what it is) feel too strict to the point that it will be unfair especially in a multicultural and lingual setting.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Especially if it's about mistakes. "Some people seem to have trouble staying on the platform" is very passive aggressive. If instead someone told me "you seem to have trouble staying on the platform, Reinha", I would see it as an opportunity to ask how everyone else is doing it.

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That phrasing is definitely passive-aggressive but something like "be careful not to move when the boss is casting Slippery Ice" is more of a friendly reminder while still not calling anyone out.

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Originally Posted by Handsareus

"You make alot of mistakes" *banned* wtf?? literally in a static where we have dps fucking up on light rampant and we have been on that mech for 4 days. they know they are fucking up and we keep telling them "pay attention" "stop clipping ppl with proteans" until now they finally corrected themselves, so now we are moving on cuz we keep telling them "they are making alot of mistakes". some ppl are just slow learners or hard headed and need to have it drilled into their head. the fact you cant say it in a nice way in PF is beyond me

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I realize I'm joining the thread extremely late, but I just wanted to add in regards to this, you're missing part of the context here. This does not effect your static. There's not going to be a GM watching you and your friend group's every chat log in the shadows while you have your raid nights. You can still freely tell your static friends they're indirectly a piece of garbage at the game, but here's the catch: you can't do that to someone you don't know. Simple as that. You know this person? Go head, banter with them, backseat them, whatever the situation demands. You've never met this player in your life, and you're probably never going to see them again after this random PF? Don't. The TOS has always been the same, they simply added practical examples so people would stop flipping the argument around when in front of a GM.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

So, it's clarification that it was just clarification of rules that were already in place. Wow!

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https://media.giphy.com/media/26xBJH...6r8A/giphy.gif

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

it's prohibited to leave right after entering a duty or intentionally disconnect

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Leaving isn't prohibited; it's penalized already. If you leave, you can't queue for 30 minutes.
Disconnecting though, and hoping people kick you, so you don't have to eat the penalty, is prohibited -- but it's also hard to prove.

However, if someone has a track record of doing this repeatedly, the excuse "bad internet" becomes shaky, and weaker each time.

This entire thread is literally the definition of "Oh no! Anyway."

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Originally Posted by Iscah

That phrasing is definitely passive-aggressive but something like "be careful not to move when the boss is casting Slippery Ice" is more of a friendly reminder while still not calling anyone out.

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To me the passive aggressiveness comes specifically from the passive tense. If I and only I made a mistake, and you said something like that, I would feel that as condescending. I know I screwed up, you know I screwed up. So why the tiptoeing? Just say it to me straight what I should do. But again, this feels clearly as a cultural difference in communication to me.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

So, it's clarification that it was just clarification of rules that were already in place. Wow!

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Yes, but with the clarifications we now know the problems that we have and have had. With the examples now out there, there could be more reports, which would be in line with their CoC. While it is a good thing for SE, it also helps the community to know exactly what the norms in the CoC are. I am just giving my feedback on the entirety of the CoC now that I know exactly what those norms are and thinking that they might be too strict in some places especially with different cultures in play.

This is why I stick to Discord voice chat. I can cuss at my leisure and critique someone as harshly as I fancy without consequence game-wise. Well, being black-listed maybe.

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Originally Posted by KOPF

To me the passive aggressiveness comes specifically from the passive tense.

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They don't seem like the same tense to me. "Some people can't do it right" is talking about you but not to you. "Do this thing" is giving a direct instruction to [the reader], which is you.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

That phrasing is definitely passive-aggressive but something like "be careful not to move when the boss is casting Slippery Ice" is more of a friendly reminder while still not calling anyone out.

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Do people actually feel like they are being accused of something when someone directly addresses them person to person? To me that sentence was about as neutral as "you seem to have gotten wet in the rain, Reinha" or "wait, you dropped this".

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Originally Posted by Iscah

They don't seem like the same tense to me. "Some people can't do it right" is talking about you but not to you. "Do this thing" is giving a direct instruction to [the reader], which is you.

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Yeah, that phrase is very dismissive and belittling to me. But I would say that your first example from the post before is as well unless there are clearly multiple people who did the same mistake as I did. The multiple people context would also make the quoted phrase on the edge of being acceptable as well, but I can see that it probably is felt very dismissive for others. But yeah, these are just different interpretations in the end. My main problem still is, if I am reading the CoC right, something like "Hey X, you need to do Y to do the mechanic Z" would also be warranted enough for a report and I really don't think it should.

Especially with terms like "If you can't do the mechanic well, maybe you shouldn't bother joining the party." is also a clear example of a phrase you should not say. Which to me is not rude at all, it gives a very logical reason without any direct insults. Is it a negative phrase? Yes, but so is just saying no. I would rather have someone said that to me and then kick me than not saying anything and kicking me straight off.

Logically to me, if you don't know the fight well enough to consistently kill the boss, then you shouldn't join farm parties. This isn't to say, that mistakes are unacceptable, but that if you really do not understand the mechanic, you will most likely fail it. Think something like Fury's 14 on E5S. If one person fails, it is almost certainly a wipe. And this was really a problem in PF farm parties, since on average I would get a clear per 15 to 20 tries in farm parties while most of the team would do the mechanic correctly. Granted, I played at the tail end of the tier, so most of the players, who are really invested in Savage content in PF had already finished and gotten their best in slots and therefore were not playing in PF.

The phrasing is really off on all the examples as well (probably from the transliteration from Japanese), which makes them really weird phrases. No one I know talks that way, so it makes it very hard to think what the actual core message are to take away from those examples.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Do people actually feel like they are being accused of something when someone directly addresses them person to person? To me that sentence was about as neutral as "you seem to have gotten wet in the rain, Reinha" or "wait, you dropped this".

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That is exactly my point as well. You are Finnish like me, so it definitely could also be a cultural difference.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

"you seem to have gotten wet in the rain, Reinha"

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It’s funny because internally I’d think: well duh, Captain Obvious! It’s one of the ways we tease each other in my house actually, and you can expect a very sarcastic response in return :D With strangers I keep that in check, but to me it’s pointless info that I am quite aware of myself. Just hand me a towel, much appreciated.

In that same vein saying: “you are making a lot of mistakes” seems equally pointless to me. Usually people will know themselves. They don’t particularly enjoy it either. It puts a spotlight on them while they may feel flustered and/or confused already, and it may just heighten those sensations. What does pointing out the obvious achieve? I’m genuinely curious, because I’ve never understood the function of it unless it’s a consequence of sincere surprise (“Oh no, you got completely soaked!”).

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Originally Posted by Nishira

What does pointing out the obvious achieve? I’m genuinely curious, because I’ve never understood the function of it unless it’s a consequence of sincere surprise (“Oh no, you got completely soaked!”).

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It opens up a conversation, or it can be funny as you said, or it can show that you have noticed a problem and are willing to offer a solution without feeding it to them before they ask.

"Your melds are incorrect."

"Really? What should I meld?"

"Crit and direct hit are best for your job."

"Thanks, give me a minute and I'll fix it."

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Originally Posted by KOPF

That is exactly my point as well. You are Finnish like me, so it definitely could also be a cultural difference.

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Wow, I thought I was going crazy but it all makes a lot of sense now. "If you can't do the mechanic well, you shouldn't join a farm party" is word for word something I could imagine myself saying. It's reasonable, it explains what I'm thinking and it's not offensive. I would have no hard feelings if someone said it to me. Gentle indirect speech like "let's all check if our gear is in order" when one person is making the mistake is something I'd only expect to hear from a kindergarten teacher. It's condescending. It also doesn't tell me if I am the one who has to improve.

It's good to be aware of these kinds of cultural differences, I think. I don't want to insult anyone on purpose. It does make me a little bit sad that the game is specifically banning the style of communication I've been used to my whole life.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Wow, I thought I was going crazy but it all makes a lot of sense now. "If you can't do the mechanic well, you shouldn't join a farm party" is word for word something I could imagine myself saying. It's reasonable, it explains what I'm thinking and it's not offensive. I would have no hard feelings if someone said it to me. Gentle indirect speech like "let's all check if our gear is in order" when one person is making the mistake is something I'd only expect to hear from a kindergarten teacher. It's condescending. It also doesn't tell me if I am the one who has to improve.

It's good to be aware of these kinds of cultural differences, I think. I don't want to insult anyone on purpose. It does make me a little bit sad that the game is specifically banning the style of communication I've been used to my whole life.

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I aint finnish, but I'm far more likely to be offended by one person saying that everybody should check equipment, then one person with badly setup equipment getting a lesson in properly setting up materia, even if that person who was an idiot and had it wrong was ME.

(hint, it HAS been me, and if somebody hadden't been dirrect, I wouldn't have ever figured it out).