I can agree, and I like the idea, but to the gods I swear that they better have higher potencies than back in the day... The first removal of them, I think(?) was because of how weak they were.. and easy to remove with little negative impact to the Monk, so they would need a high enough potency to be good oGCD attacks, I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by VentVanitas
I could see that being a thing... The Forbidden Chakra as a action with no Meditation action, but I would hate a change like that, as I like the Meditation action.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy_T93
RIP MNK 1.x - 5.x
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09-21-2021, 05:42 PMAnahlise_Auhn_Giinslai
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09-21-2021, 07:42 PMMikey_RDo you not play Monk? How Andy_T93 described the relationshiop is how it already works ingame. At 0-4 Chakra, the button is meditation, once you hit the 5th Chakra, Meditation changes to The Forbidden Chakra.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai
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09-21-2021, 07:45 PMVentVanitasI believe they were removed because the development team initially thought that GL4 would be """too fast""" for us to deal with. Just... ignore how this was right after the busiest iteration of MNK and they went back on their word eventually anyway by turning TK into Steel Peak.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai
However they could easily take the place of current Elixir Field and TK, potency, cooldown and all. Might as well, seeing as how the only damaging oGCD present in the demonstration was Forbidden Chakra. -
09-21-2021, 08:30 PMRamura_Sono"GL4 will be too fast" is how you knew not a single person on the Dev Team played Monk. We were no faster. We just invested more stats into crit rather than sks and maintained the same GCD speed we've always geared to.Quote:
Originally Posted by VentVanitas
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09-21-2021, 09:13 PMSqwallDamn, your right it was open! Then meditation is still there it seems, but I'm curious to why 2 chackra were gained with using new "tornado AOE", maybe something to do with "Riddle of Wind"? I'm so curious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy_T93
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09-21-2021, 09:59 PMAndy_T93Watching it back I don't think he did I actually think the first chakra was gained from activating PB then the second one was gained from the new AOE kick, Which could mean that activating PB grants a chakraQuote:
Originally Posted by Sqwall
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09-21-2021, 09:59 PMKahnomYes, you sum it up pretty nicely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramura_Sono
Not a single main MNK complain that “its too fast”.
Fast GCD is what we signed up for and that’s why we called ourselves main MNK. -
09-22-2021, 02:01 AMMezzoforteI am the opposite. As someone who has hated SMN more and more since beta. I am glad we finally have an actual summoner instead of a quasi-dot class. They should just turn old summoner dot playstyle into some other caster class like Necromancer, Oracle, or Spellsword. Something. I am finally happy that after so many years I can actually play a genuine close to FF style summoner.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyvid
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09-22-2021, 05:52 AMAnahlise_Auhn_GiinslaiI think that you mis-read what I meant... I was to think.. imagine if Meditation does not exist, and The Forbidden Chakra is a action that just sits on your hotbar and you can not use it, until you get five Chakra, and then The Forbidden Chakra action goes from grey to lit up and ready for use. My point is that would annoy me, because I like the Meditation action, and I like how it transforms into The Forbidden Chakra, when The Forbidden Chakra is ready.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey_R
Quote:
Originally Posted by VentVanitas
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Originally Posted by Ramura_Sono
That may have also been the case... I think that their delete was because of "button bloat", but that may be the case... And I agree that it is nonsense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahnom
I love Monk because I love speed... I love a thing that does not exist in FFXIV, the Speed archtype play-style, and Monk is the most close to that... To me, too fast does not exist, only too slow exists.
As for that, I could go with that... I think that would work out, so let us go with that idea... In that case, hmn...Howling Fist would be a short-range frontal straight-line AoE with potency 250 and a 30sec CD, while Steel Peak would be the melee-range single target attack with potency 400 and the 45sec CD...Quote:
Originally Posted by VentVanitas
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09-23-2021, 05:27 AMIruruCeceWhat makes this worse is that it's clear nobody on the dev team has been seriously playing Monk on live servers since 2.0, if we're being generous. The way GL was handled up until its eventual removal feels like someone was following a design document, and not even bothering to experiment for themselves what their changes were doing to the job. What monk mains were actually demanding the removal of steel peak and howling fist? Which ones wanted a skill that SLOWED US DOWN, on top of our old capstone skill doing the same and reverting us to a weakened state??????Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramura_Sono
The addition of Blitzes is probably one of the most visible instances of someone actually taking player feedback about the job seriously, if not the first. And it's impossible for me to be excited about it because the devs have mishandled the job for so long, I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop.
I think what makes the "button bloat" removal on the devs part frustrating is that they didn't actually address button bloat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai
If they wanted to address button bloat more decisively AND effectively, elemental fists should have been removed from the game by 3.0 at the latest. They have been a thorn in the side of the job since inception, have rarely demanded players to dance between them, and the biggest change to that dynamic, AFAIK, was in ShB, where a popular opener involved STARTING in Fire, then switching to Wind when we hit GL3 so we could push into GL4... so we could sit in Wind for the rest of the fight, barring the need to reopen.
And then they removed GL anyway, so now we just sit in Fire. Again.
I would trade all the elemental fists for the OGCDs we've lost over the years, since its pretty clear that "button bloat" isn't actually something SE has ever cared about in regards to monks for a VERY long time now. Hell, ShB Monk had plenty of button bloat to deal with just having the elemental fists and a host of buttons all designed to help maintain GL... which is no longer in the game, and were made worthless even before that because SE decided it was more important that we lose GL while we watch the same damn mid-fight cutscenes again, and again, and again.
Maybe if TP still existed in the game, the enforced breaks might be somewhat welcome. Maybe. -
09-23-2021, 06:31 AMAnahlise_Auhn_Giinslai
ah, the fists of actions. verily, those are bad design... and they make little sense, to begin with, in my opinion.. since they seem to be more akin to magic, than aught else, and I have no memory of monk's identity ever to include "Elemental Brawler" in it....I have no idea what plans the Dev Team has for the Fists of actions, but I have been to write up and work on my own ideas for them...
I had concept ideas to re-design the fists of actions from toggle passives, to GCD WeaponSkills with a CD, that require forms like our other WeaponSkills, one for each form, with the aesthetic idea of to convert them from magic enhancements into Chakra-power Martial arts, and in order to add a bit more into the Monk rotation... I am still to work on the details of those concepts, though...
Not quite done with to complete it, yet.. as I need to in full theory-craft the CD parts of the re-design concept.
as for oGCDs... I think we will need to wait, see if Elixir Field and Tornado Kick were in fact made into blitzes, or if it was just similar animation, and those two are still around. That said, I am all for more oGCDs on Monk. If Monk has enough oGCDs, with different CDs, Monk could even single-weave as a constant, and gain a illusion of speed that makes it feel even more fast. -
09-23-2021, 07:57 AMwereotterI always interpreted that more as the developers being worried they would have a harder time balancing such a fast job to the other DPS than us having trouble playing it. But they always reword things so play down troubles they might have as troubles we would have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahnom
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09-23-2021, 08:08 PMBhearil
I am the only one worried with the multistrike Ying&Yang finisher? Having flashbacks of Dragoons stuck in jumping animation and prone to be murked by mechanics due to being unable to move in time:/
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09-23-2021, 09:59 PMKahnomOk, that's not funny if its true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bhearil
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09-23-2021, 10:58 PMNyarlhaThere is no reason for this to be true. I can't think of any other multi-hit animation locking anyone into place like DRG's Jumps which were always a special case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahnom
It's not like Tornado Kick is locking us into place right now or anything. -
09-23-2021, 11:50 PMSpeckledBurdThere's at least one case of a pure attack locking you in place in Assassinate, but I'd be surprised if they put it onto any of the Blitzes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyarlha
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09-24-2021, 12:27 AMGarnixYeah assassinate has quite a long CD so it's not too bad. But the Blitzes will be used a lot, so it would be quite dangerous to have a massive animation lock on them...Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd
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09-24-2021, 01:19 AMKabooaNot really. Just something you work around.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bhearil
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09-24-2021, 02:19 AMBhearilHaving something "you work around" when we are gonna use that move quite often on a really fast class is not something anyone would enjoy, moreso if you are trying to maximize your damage and the animation locks forces you to delay and lose dps or eat the atack (this is NOT the same as "stop dpsing and get away from the boss" moments). The animation lock its still quite annoying as a Dragoon and they are a far slower job and it was originally FAR WORSE (dead Dragoon memes spawned from those dark days) until they later reduced the lockQuote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
Really hope it doesnt lock us in place, dont screw up Monk again
Elixir Field finisher doesnt seem to have any lock but an atack teleporting you to deal several blows before slamming the floor and moving to the original position again reeks to animation lock as hell, hope im being proved wrong -
09-24-2021, 04:46 AMaeoncsHow is it even possible to come to those conclusions if you've played Monk for years? ShB Monk is pretty much the easiest the job has been since ARR and EW finally seems to bring back some complexity at first glance. Masterful Blitz and its interaction with PB & formless shifts looks way more involved than two positionals and OGCDs, especially considering that we'll be generating more chakra which would have made overcapping even more of a pain than it currently is - it'll likely still be a problem in EW but to a much smaller degree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morzy
People seriously need to look at the bigger picture:
- we'll be using PB more than twice as often (that alone already makes up for losing 1 OGCD) and in a complete new and seemingly engaging way, which really can't be said for the DK and LF spam
- more RoF burst windows that will most likely need more planning and careful execution to get the most out of each individual Blitz
- RoW, while not especially exciting, fits thematically and is an added OGCD
- more chakra due to PB and BH changes = more OGCD usage
I mean, being disappointed with some of the changes is fine but it's kinda mind-boggling how many "veteran Monk players" are seriously suggesting that the upcoming changes will make the job easier when everything points to the contrary.
And all of the above isn't even mentioning that we haven't seen a single skill or trait above level 82 thus far; I'd honestly be very surprised if the media tour coverage doesn't give us a new skill and/or trait to shake things up even more.
EDIT:
It was definitely the new skill adding two chakra. It's basically a guaranteed crit just like Bootshine/Leaden Fist and since Brotherhood is always going to give us chakra upon executing a weapon skill during its duration, they basically gained one chakra from using the skill and another one due to the auto-crit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy_T93
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09-25-2021, 02:49 AMssunny2008- We´re going to lose 2 positionals and on top we get 3 new GCD´s without positionals too, which means that we play overall way less positionals.Quote:
Originally Posted by aeoncs
- Burstskills will be more in line with the whole raidparty (60/120) anyway, so there is no really a need to plan their execution more carefully. You only take care for 1 thing: Never let PB sit on 2 stacks! That you want your finishers withing those buff windows seems obvious and shouldn´t be that hard, when you´re actually able to use PB 3-4 times every 120 seconds. Curious that all those timers match together?!
- Spamming chakra when it´s full has never been exciting or challenging.
MNK will be easier to play. Pretty much everything seems to become easier to play since raidbuffs get alined, classes more homogenized and all those movement-cripples out there become some dashes or a raidwide sprint, have to play less positionals, whatever. Even RNG-jesus proccs seems to get nerfed or better said, "are going to be cleaner".
So... just hold everything on cooldown on any class. I´m sure that´s enough to beat savage content in the future. I mean, how can you actually fail with the new MNK? Trying to open 2 dark chakras? Either the internal testers of SE try to play the classes blind with one hand or they do really think, that their community has an average IQ from 50. But hey, given to the hype about more dumbdowns äh QoL-changes and some boaaahhh! - animations, i would think the same. -
09-25-2021, 04:51 AMShurrikhanTbf, we could then make the same case for every intermediate actions, such as every combo skill short of the final, or at least every combo skill without an additional effect worth generating for its own sake.Quote:
Originally Posted by IruruCece
Bloat isn't a matter of whether something is more than an immediate necessity; it's marked by its providing no unique value, design-wise, in its present context. That always leaves three solutions, however—only one of which is the action's removal. The other two are to adjust the context such that the skill gains that unique opportunity or to adjust the skill such that it actually provides a unique opportunity within its contexts.
Any case one can make for the stance's removals can be mirrored by a case for their being made an actual mechanic. The real problem is merely that neither has happened—outside of perhaps 4.3's iteration, and even it was far from stellar. -
09-25-2021, 08:15 PMaeoncs- true, so? We're already playing an iteration where positionals are way less important than they were in the past. I'm not happy about losing two positionals but I don't think it's that big of a deal considering the current gameplay, unless they're planning to take it even further in the futureQuote:
Originally Posted by ssunny2008
- there absolutely is some individual planning involved. You will have to hold singular stacks of PB as to use them and the following formless shift during an optimal time in your burst window/s and that alone is already more involved than our current burst window
- it's still an OGCD you'll be using more often
No, it most likely won't and that's not even taking level 84-90 traits/skills into account. PB, Masterful Blitz and the following formless shift can be used in numerous ways while our current PB has exactly one right/optimal use and everything else should be avoided. How can you argue that what we've seen in the LL will be less involved / easier than following your basic rotation while weaving a few OGCDs and spamming DK and LF every 90~ seconds?
The new gap closer will see infinitely more skill-based usage than Shoulder Tackle and will literally add to the skill ceiling; absolutely baffling that you can't see this.
Also, are you honestly trying to say that RNG is in any shape or form skill-based?
You have almost always held everything on cooldown on any job since release in 99.9% of all content, the only exception being holding your burst a few seconds for speed kills or progging where you need/want damage peaks. And let's be real, even then the vast majority of raid groups are incapable of doing that in a beneficial way.
How can you actually fail with the current Monk? Even before the soft rework, ShB made losing GL close to impossible and the only mistake you could really make is missing positionals and uptime. The first is way less punishing than screwing up your light/dark chakras, especially in your full burst window where you'll constantly have to weave in FC due to the BH changes, and the second is still always going to be a problem for most players.
I'd advise you to watch some videos or read up on theorycrafting from Monk players who really know what they're talking about - Student Loans or the most known theorycrafters from the balance discord come to mind. If they can't change your mind, maybe at least wait for the Media Tour / until you have seen the entirety of the kit instead of ranting prematurely. -
09-25-2021, 09:53 PMssunny2008You answered it yourself in some way in my eyes. Calling it "optimal".Quote:
Originally Posted by aeoncs
- With the lined up burst skills on any classes, you probably won´t even think much about "delay or not". Same with divers RNG proccs on several classes, when they´re going to be made 100% proccs. You don´t save something for 2 seconds or so, when it´s going to be ready in the burst phases for sure. Decision-making won´t be a thing.
- To hold 1 PB back for maybe that 90s skill or to use it in the 60s RoF window doesn´t mix things up tbh.
- Shoulder tackle seems to be nothing to talk about, the change is a good one. But in the end, you don´t have to make the decision "Do i use it in my burst phase or should i prepare for incoming uptime-issues?"
- Having FS in the end if PB gives us the advantage to optimize our gameplay yes. But in this way, it´s getting easier to react to whatever is happening / to optimize the gameplay.
- Don´t know for sure how blitz is gonna work in the end, atleast which skill will give us which symbol. But there we´re able to adjust to given circumstances too.
I´m not saying the current MNK is hard, if anything, it´s braindead next to get used to positionals at different mechanics. But with the loss of 2 positionals, the more lined up buffs and some QoL changes, MNK is getting easier for sure. You might see that it caters optimal gameplay and skill ceiling, i see less positional effected gameplay, less uptime issues and decision-making. The rest is just a new rotation i´ll get used to and in the worst case, it´ll feel a bit clunky without the 2 positionals and the finisher animations.