Need help / advice for this tank roulette situation

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Low level content is way more difficult than 80 dungeons because of crappy kits, and it's more likely to have new players in it, so it's probably the biggest deal when it comes to this discussion. 80 dungeons, oddly enough, are where this topic is kind of irrelevant.

And again, the assessment of people in this game is a point you brought up. If you judge them all to be adequate then good for you, but I don't agree. I get that you don't like the conclusion I've drawn, but you're the one who brought this up.

Also, I'm just saying that responding to rudeness with rudeness is fair. I honestly find it hilarious that you people all go out picking fights with tanks, and then act like the tank is the jerk for fighting back. Be considerate to people and they'll be considerate in turn. Be dismissive and rude and that's how people will respond. These are the absolute basics of interacting with people.

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Goji, it's all about being a better person.
I get that there're things you can't comprehend, but it's just this simple. I look at people as they are people. Worthy of being respected. They might not be "adequate" as you think, but you never know what brought them to that point. Or maybe your judgement is wrong. We are all different. We live different lives and have different experiences. Some people are simply misunderstood. One had a bad day, another is having not the best time in their life. You can't look down on anyone no matter what. Because you might be on their side one day and in the end of the day, you would still want to be treated nicely, even if you're acting like a jerk because you feel the whole world is against you.
That's why this whole "rude" competition of who can hurt each other more with this dumb attitude of "you pull it, you tank it" is kinda bad in my opinion and brings nothing good to anyone.

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Originally Posted by Imora

If you want someone that isn't the tank to pull then don't expect the tank to lead.

Every game I've played bar Everquest, the tank pulled and everyone else was polite enough to let them. Everquest was different because your puller was usually a monk skilled at picking out single mobs from the group and feigning death if they failed or for the tank to grab it.

No DPS here have that kit. Pulling for the tank just because YOU don't like how fast it's going is just as rude as "you pull it, you tank it".

Usually if a healer can handle larger pulls, just saying so will speed the tank up. It's not hard to talk to people.

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I never said that I defend "not a tank" pullers just in case. Sometimes it's fine to pull if you're not a tank, the other time is not. Dungeons - I don't think it's a big deal. Raids, I'd rather see a tank do it, preferably with a timer. Context matters.
And in the end - if the group doesn't like someone, they can almost always kick the disruptor.

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Originally Posted by Miracle_Diva

Goji, it's all about being a better person.
I get that there're things you can't comprehend, but it's just this simple. I look at people as they are people. Worthy of being respected. They might not be "adequate" as you think, but you never know what brought them to that point. Or maybe your judgement is wrong. We are all different. We live different lives and have different experiences. Some people are simply misunderstood. One had a bad day, another is having not the best time in their life. You can't look down on anyone no matter what. Because you might be on their side one day and in the end of the day, you would still want to be treated nicely, even if you're acting like a jerk because you feel the whole world is against you.
That's why this whole "rude" competition of who can hurt each other more with this dumb attitude of "you pull it, you tank it" is kinda bad in my opinion and brings nothing good to anyone.

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Right and wrong aren't really the point; I'm just informing you of what to expect if you continue being inconsiderate and dismissive of tanks just because they're not pulling fast enough for you. The fact that you can't even be bothered to talk to them before jumping to your most inconsiderate option says a lot about your mindset. Saying the tank needs to be the bigger person and just tolerate how you behave is silly.

Also, always giving peoples poor behavior the benefit of the doubt doesn't help anyone. Having a difficult life isn't a free pass to be rude to people; if someone's behavior paints them as a less than adequate person then that's how they'll be received.

If aggro was an issue I could see where people are coming from. Thing is aggro is not an issue, and if it is your tank is trolling and should be removed from the group. That being said even in lower level content single pulls are useless, sure wall-to-wall may be too much but in my view a single pull is never appropriate. A tank is not needed for single pulls, and any tank or healer that request single pulls is just looking to do the bare minimum required to clear the dungeon.

Also let us be fair everyone involved in this discussion is less than adequate person since we are having a debate over size of pulls in a video. Generally speaking I am willing to bet most people would think each and everyone one of us are kinda pathetic. Which I accept as canon.

The claim is that it's okay for a tank to be a toxic prima donna because they are the one that ensures the group survives a fight. Hmm, how to prove that idea is a bad assumption. I know, I'll show the 3 variations of this behavior that I've witnessed over the years. I've seen these in so damn many MMOs it's not funny. Any time the unholy trinity of Tank/DPS/Healer crops up, these make their appearance.

Tank Role: Only I can pull! If you dare pull, even if it's an accident, then I wont tank to punish you!

DPS Role: Only my damage contribution matters, stop attacking! Anyone else doing DPS is wasting my time, so I'll stop attacking to punish you!

Healer Role: I am the most important person on this team, only I can keep you from dying! Wait, you dare to use self healing? You're wasting my time, so I'll stop healing to punish you!

Mind you, I have the policy as a healer of "I can't heal stupid and refuse to try." If you run off on your own, are constantly running out of my Line of Sight or out of my range, and consistently keep pulling new adds when we're struggling as it is... Then I will leave you to your fate because I'm too busy trying to keep the rest of the team alive. But hey, that applies to all roles equally. If you're consistently pulling in more aggro then I can handle as a tank, then I'll ask you to slow down. If you don't, I'll stop worrying about keeping aggro off you, cause I'm too busy trying to protect the rest of the team. And if the tank keeps pulling more mobs then he/she can handle, then I'll prioritize taking out enemies going after the healer, and leave the tank to their fate.

Just had a disagreement with a tank who stopped at the first set of enemies in Pagl while the rest of us kept running and, confused, looked back to see the tank. Tried to rescue but then she just refused to budge and the two dps ran back while I grabbed the second group and just healed myself up. It made me think of this thread, as I now sit with a 30min penalty for expecting the bare minimum from a tank at level 80.

ofc the dps sided with the tank because suggesting that somebody at level 80 be able to spam their AoE at two groups instead of one is "mean"

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...2/Untitled.png

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Originally Posted by FrogDog

Just had a disagreement with a tank who stopped at the first set of enemies in Pagl while the rest of us kept running and, confused, looked back to see the tank. Tried to rescue but then she just refused to budge and the two dps ran back while I grabbed the second group and just healed myself up. It made me think of this thread, as I now sit with a 30min penalty for expecting the bare minimum from a tank at level 80.

ofc the dps sided with the tank because suggesting that somebody at level 80 be able to spam their AoE at two groups instead of one is "mean"

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...2/Untitled.png

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There are other factors. The tank could have felt under geared if they don't main tank or have been away for awhile and are trying to catch up gear wise. It's far worse when tanks are under geared for a duty and try to do big pulls just to melt 3 seconds after the the healer's MP flatlines because they had to mash all their heals and cooldowns during the pull. To me that chat log just looks like someone leaving a duty as a tantrum because they didn't get their way. Which basically means you chose to have a 30 minute penalty because you didn't want to take a few extra minutes clearing a duty. So if the complaint is about having a 30 minute penalty for abandoning the duty that would be on you alone and no one else.

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Originally Posted by FrogDog

Just had a disagreement with a tank who stopped at the first set of enemies in Pagl while the rest of us kept running and, confused, looked back to see the tank. Tried to rescue but then she just refused to budge and the two dps ran back while I grabbed the second group and just healed myself up. It made me think of this thread, as I now sit with a 30min penalty for expecting the bare minimum from a tank at level 80.

ofc the dps sided with the tank because suggesting that somebody at level 80 be able to spam their AoE at two groups instead of one is "mean"

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...2/Untitled.png

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This is actually a pretty good sample study for this.

I'm genuinely curious to see who this little forum community believes was being toxic in this situation.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

There are other factors. The tank could have felt under geared if they don't main tank or have been away for awhile and are trying to catch up gear wise. It's far worse when tanks are under geared for a duty and try to do big pulls just to melt 3 seconds after the the healer's MP flatlines because they had to mash all their heals and cooldowns during the pull. To me that chat log just looks like someone leaving a duty as a tantrum because they didn't get their way. Which basically means you chose to have a 30 minute penalty because you didn't want to take a few extra minutes clearing a duty. So if the complaint is about having a 30 minute penalty for abandoning the duty that would be on you alone and no one else.

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It's expert roulette, it's easy even at minimum ilvl. And yeah, I know I come off as brusque but I don't feel like I should have to baby somebody's comfort level over the difference of AoEing 4 enemies or 8, it's just ridiculous. Also, the tank didn't even *try* to pull more or to come take the enemies off of me, instead letting me heal myself up just so she could try to prove a point.

I took the penalty rather than support something I don't agree with, which is letting people get by without even the bare minimum of effort while they try to shame anyone who speaks up. This kind of tank is a rarity by level cap at least, but unfortunately the game doesn't allow me to just cleanly separate myself from a person like this, which is my bigger issue and point. The game puts the onus on me to either shut up to avoid getting kicked or slaps a 30min penalty on me (where I can't even do chocobo races or unsync a dungeon solo) for choosing to leave over a difference of play styles.

I think I was in a no win situation here since I spoke up about it, was called mean twice and an "ass" for doing so, I was probably going to be kicked within 5mins or at the end of the dungeon as a troll. Either way I would have lost time and gained nothing for it.

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Originally Posted by FrogDog

Just had a disagreement with a tank who stopped at the first set of enemies in Pagl while the rest of us kept running and, confused, looked back to see the tank. Tried to rescue but then she just refused to budge and the two dps ran back while I grabbed the second group and just healed myself up. It made me think of this thread, as I now sit with a 30min penalty for expecting the bare minimum from a tank at level 80.

ofc the dps sided with the tank because suggesting that somebody at level 80 be able to spam their AoE at two groups instead of one is "mean"

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...2/Untitled.png

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I don't want to act like this is some kind of "gotcha" moment, because you generously offered this of your own free will, but it's pretty much exactly how I assume these scenarios with "toxic" tanks and Healers on this forum go down.

Basically... "Forum healer runs ahead and pulls... Forum Healer tries to Rescue pull tank to force it... When that doesn't work Forum Healer just sits there healing himself while the rest of the group goes back to where the tank is... Tank acknowledges he's not comfortable with big pulls and asks politely that Forum Healer doesn't do that... Rest of the group agrees to let the tank keep a pace he's comfortable with... Forum healer whines and insults the group like a simp before bailing... Forum healer runs to the forums for affirmations from other Forum Healers who behave the same way as him in groups."

Thank you for this.

The funny thing is, most of the times I've personally encountered "you pull it, you tank it" in game, the person getting 'punished' pulled the mobs on accident simply because they didn't realize that the tank had already stopped. Most people that are supportive of this mentality literally go out of their way to try to read malicious intentions into peoples actions just so that they can go on a righteous power-trip.

Most normal, well adjusted people wouldn't even spend energy fantasizing about how they would 'punish' someone that pulled extra mobs. I've noticed a lot of the people that try to engage in this behavior spend a bunch of time actively fantasizing about it before it even happens, see: this thread.

As a tank main, it's just hilarious and sad to watch. Grow up, press your two aoe buttons and pop some CDs. Stop intentionally griefing parties because you are shopping for reasons to get butthurt and engage in a power-fantasy.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I don't want to act like this is some kind of "gotcha" moment, because you generously offered this of your own free will, but it's pretty much exactly how I assume these scenarios with "toxic" tanks and Healers on this forum go down.

Basically... "Forum healer runs ahead and pulls... Forum Healer tries to Rescue pull tank to force it... When that doesn't work Forum Healer just sits there healing himself while the rest of the group goes back to where the tank is... Tank acknowledges he's not comfortable with big pulls and asks politely that Forum Healer doesn't do that... Rest of the group agrees to let the tank keep a pace he's comfortable with... Forum healer whines and insults the group like a simp before bailing... Forum healer runs to the forums for affirmations from other Forum Healers who behave the same way as him in groups."

Thank you for this.

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I genuinely want to know if you’re trolling at this point or not. There is no excuse for a tank to not mass pull in an endgame dungeon. No excuse unless that person has a major disability. Them “not feeling comfortable” i can guarantee is due to people like you enabling this kind of behavior. It’s ridiculous that you and others continue to enable people to do their roles half-assed, wasting other people’s time and then go and try to say the person asking for them to play their role to the best of their ability is being “toxic.” God this community i swear.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

There are other factors. The tank could have felt under geared if they don't main tank or have been away for awhile and are trying to catch up gear wise. It's far worse when tanks are under geared for a duty and try to do big pulls just to melt 3 seconds after the the healer's MP flatlines because they had to mash all their heals and cooldowns during the pull. To me that chat log just looks like someone leaving a duty as a tantrum because they didn't get their way. Which basically means you chose to have a 30 minute penalty because you didn't want to take a few extra minutes clearing a duty. So if the complaint is about having a 30 minute penalty for abandoning the duty that would be on you alone and no one else.

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This horrible excuse is getting real old. There is no "being undergeared" in an endgame dungeon.These dungeons are deliberately made in such a way that they can be mass pulled being at simply the required IL. Healer mp flatlining? If the healer has made it to level 8- endgame dungeons, they should know their kit. Even with an undergeared tank in a lvl 80 dungeon, especially on whm, the healer shouldnt even need to use a gcd heal.

As I mentioned, when playing a healer I have the policy of "I can't heal stupid, and refuse to try so stick with the group." It's my job to keep the party on their feet while beating the enemy into the ground as quickly as possible, but healing takes a higher priority then dps.

When I play DPS, it's my job to stick with the group and beat enemies into the ground as quickly as possible.

When I play a tank, it's my job to stick with the group and keep as much aggro focused on me as possible so the others can do their jobs. Part of that involves dealing damage. But it's my job to use all of my kit. If I don't feel confident in my ability to hold aggro against more then 3 or 4 enemies, I will mention this at the start of the run. If someone on the team ignores my warning, and decides to pull more then I can manage to tank, I will still at least try to tank it. I wont be worried about protecting whoever pulled the adds (unless they are the healer), but I will try to keep the team alive.

This whole idea of "if you pull, I refuse to tank" is toxic and really should stop.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I don't want to act like this is some kind of "gotcha" moment, because you generously offered this of your own free will, but it's pretty much exactly how I assume these scenarios with "toxic" tanks and Healers on this forum go down.

Basically... "Forum healer runs ahead and pulls... Forum Healer tries to Rescue pull tank to force it... When that doesn't work Forum Healer just sits there healing himself while the rest of the group goes back to where the tank is... Tank acknowledges he's not comfortable with big pulls and asks politely that Forum Healer doesn't do that... Rest of the group agrees to let the tank keep a pace he's comfortable with... Forum healer whines and insults the group like a simp before bailing... Forum healer runs to the forums for affirmations from other Forum Healers who behave the same way as him in groups."

Thank you for this.

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The only thing I would say the tank was in the wrong for would be not even attempting to help. I managed to heal myself through one group pretty easily which highlights that a tank isn't needed for single pulls. A tank single pulling is on par with just running with a Trust at that point, wouldn't you think?

Would it be ok for a healer or dps to show the same kind of intransigence on issues of meta gameplay? Would you be fine with a DPS refusing to AoE because it makes them "uncomfortable"? What if a healer only wants to use Cure II and then asks the group to wait for MP to regenerate because they don't use ogcds? I feel like these are other forms of less efficient play that people try to address but for some reason small pulls at level 80 are off the table?

I do have to say that there is a really strong undercurrent in this game's community that is just aggressively inconsiderate of group dynamics or standards. It's kind of alien to me despite having played this game for years, I grew up playing games where people expected you to have consumables for leveling groups, or manage crowd control, enmity, and other responsibilities on top of just DPSing or healing. Running forward and hitting an AoE ability is just too much to handle though.

I think on some level this lack of expectation that gameplay change as you level up is probably a contributing factor as to why we don't get things like hard mode dungeons or alliance raids in this game.

To be honest, at first I didn't even know what my aoes were. I had to stop and look over the tooltips after a dungeon when someone yelled at me to aoe. Mind you, when that person was yelling at my monk to aoe, I didn't have any yet. You get your first one at level 20, I think. And I had been running a level 15 dungeon at level 15.

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Originally Posted by FrogDog

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What undermines your entire position here is the fact that in that scenario you were outvoted. If the majority of the group WANTS to allow the tank to pace himself and you become obstinate then YOU'RE the problem. There is no standard you can force on everyone, no matter how badly you want to. Not saying you have to stay, but the most you're entitled to say is "sorry, don't have the patience for a slow run right now so I'm out. Best of luck!"

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

The tank didnt even attempt to mass pull number one. How would they know if theyre comfortable or not, or if they can handle it without even trying. Thats pure laziness. You can go ahead and name call all you want. All you've shown here is that you're choosing to enable this laziness and lack of basic understanding of ones job. If people cant take 5-10 minutes out of their day to learn their job and kit in content that affects other players' time, then they dont deserve to be catered to.Considering how many peopl ehave agred with my points i'd say you and the minority advocating for this behavior are in the wrong, and you proved this by resorting to name calling.

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Not really name-calling; it's more characterization based on visible information.

Regardless, there's plenty of reasons a tank might not be comfortable. Lack of familiarity with the dungeon or with level 80 tanking in general are big ones. Oddly enough, wall to wall pulling in leveling dungeons is suicide in many cases, especially if you're low ilvl. By the time you reach 80 you feel pretty weak. Pulling small takes the pressure off and lets the tank feel how powerful he out of nowhere becomes at 80, which will make him more confident he can actually handle massive pulls.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

What undermines your entire position here is the fact that in that scenario you were outvoted. If the majority of the group WANTS to allow the tank to pace himself and you become obstinate then YOU'RE the problem. There is no standard you can force on everyone, no matter how badly you want to. Not saying you have to stay, but the most you're entitled to say is "sorry, don't have the patience for a slow run right now so I'm out. Best of luck!"

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Ah so I guess the issue is your standard of politeness? Given my limited interactions with you on this thread that seems kind of laughable.

Need to stop treating these tanks with kid gloves at some point. Like, I don't mind if a fresh 50 or 60 has a bit of trepidation towards pulling more than two groups of enemies. At level 70 I'll roll my eyes and grumble a bit, but I won't say anything. At 80 I just gotta ask, what the heck is going on? If they want to pull single packs and take their time, why not just run with trusts instead of wasting three other player's time?

SE literally introduced a new mode to allow players to run dungeons at their leisure without having to deal with other players and yet we still have to deal with single-pulling tanks in dungeons that are almost unfathomably toothless. Paglth'an is so hilariously undertuned that a Warrior can solo the entirety of it without a healer and two dps to back them up. Whether there's 3 mobs or 10, tank gameplay doesn't change. Just spam your aoe, use your cooldowns, and dodge enemy aoes.

No more excuses.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

What undermines your entire position here is the fact that in that scenario you were outvoted. If the majority of the group WANTS to allow the tank to pace himself and you become obstinate then YOU'RE the problem. There is no standard you can force on everyone, no matter how badly you want to. Not saying you have to stay, but the most you're entitled to say is "sorry, don't have the patience for a slow run right now so I'm out. Best of luck!"


Not really name-calling; it's more characterization based on visible information.

Regardless, there's plenty of reasons a tank might not be comfortable. Lack of familiarity with the dungeon or with level 80 tanking in general are big ones. Oddly enough, wall to wall pulling in leveling dungeons is suicide in many cases, especially if you're low ilvl. By the time you reach 80 you feel pretty weak. Pulling small takes the pressure off and lets the tank feel how powerful he out of nowhere becomes at 80, which will make him more confident he can actually handle massive pulls.

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Lack of familiarity with level 80 tanking?…. You need to do at the very least 6 dungeons to get to paglthan. Again this just sounds like horrible excuses to try to enable these people. I’m not a tank main. Tanking is by far my least favorite role. However, i leveled a tank(drk) purely because i kept getting issues with tanks in endgame content. Tanks not knowing their kit, not mass pulling in endgame content etc. Leveling dungeons 70 and below, understandable. By level 71+, you have so many tools in your kit as both a healer and a tank there’s really no reason not to mass pull. If the dps is low, then you’ll figure that out ONCE you mass pull. You shouldn’t just automatically say “i can’t handle this omg, i’m gonna small pull.” This situation is so baffling because it’s literally the last dungeon of the expansion and people are still being enabled this way. What’s going to happen come 6.0? People aren’t comfortable with level 90 tanking? Seriously?

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Good on you though for reading your tooltips. Most players dont even do that even when they hit endgame content.

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Bwah? But, I mean, it's important to know at the very least what sort of damage your attacks do or what they do. Otherwise you might try healing someone with Ruin or try damaging an enemy with Cure (doesn't work against most enemy types usually). Now, I had initially thought that this would be like most MMOs where you end up replacing low level abilities with their higher level equivalents. While "Pointy Stick Thrust" might be a rock solid attack at level 5, by level 20 you really should be either using "Pointy Stick Thrust III" or "Iron Pointy Stick Thrust", depending on which does more damage. Things were fine with that mentality at first. I replaced my True Strike with Twin Snakes, and was good to go. Only for the next level synch'd battle to break my attack chain because it lowered my level below the threshold for using Twin Snakes. Which is level 18, btw. This taught me that I need to keep my lower level attacks on the hotbar because they are still needed when synched down.

After one of the 'sprout role tutorial' missions mentioned positioning, I went over my abilities and figured out which ones do extra damage from what position relative to my target. And after someone yelled at me to "use your aoe" (before I had one because I hadn't done that Class Quest yet) I started checking for that. I now have an 'aoe' rotation and a 'single target' rotation.

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Originally Posted by FrogDog

Ah so I guess the issue is your standard of politeness? Given my limited interactions with you on this thread that seems kind of laughable.

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There's no issue; I actually really liked your story. You basically did everything I assumed you all do; the Rescue pull, not bringing the mobs back, being condescending when the tank addressed you politely, attacking the rest of the group when they defended the tank. You so concisely illustrated why people like you are the problem that all I can really do is thank you.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Lack of familiarity with level 80 tanking?…. You need to do at the very least 6 dungeons to get to paglthan. Again this just sounds like horrible excuses to try to enable these people. I’m not a tank main. Tanking is by far my least favorite role. However, i leveled a tank(drk) purely because i kept getting issues with tanks in endgame content. Tanks not knowing their kit, not mass pulling in endgame content etc. Leveling dungeons 70 and below, understandable. By level 71+, you have so many tools in your kit as both a healer and a tank there’s really no reason not to mass pull. If the dps is low, then you’ll figure that out ONCE you mass pull. You shouldn’t just automatically say “i can’t handle this omg, i’m gonna small pull.” This situation is so baffling because it’s literally the last dungeon of the expansion and people are still being enabled this way. What’s going to happen come 6.0? People aren’t comfortable with level 90 tanking? Seriously?

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Everything 71+ you can do with trusts, which will generally leave you feeling like wall to wall pulls are a bad idea. There will always be new players at 80, 90, whatever and they'll have different levels of comfort when they're first starting out. So, no use crying about it.

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Originally Posted by Titania40

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Yeah it’s genuinely surprising to me. I’ll get people in Paglthan(level 80 dungeon) who don’t know their aoe rotations, tanks who don’t know invuln exists, healers who don’t dps or are still spamming cure 1 etc. I really wish there was some hall of the veteran or something to teach these people to please read their tool tips.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Everything 71+ you can do with trusts, which will generally leave you feeling like wall to wall pulls are a bad idea. There will always be new players at 80, 90, whatever and they'll have different levels of comfort when they're first starting out. So, no use crying about it.

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Exactly, they can do it in trusts. So if they arent "comfortable" in doing it, why not just run with trusts instead of wasting 3 other players' time with it.New players at 80 and 90? The amount of time it takes to get there, people should more than know their job. You get more tools at your disposal not less.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

Need to stop treating these tanks with kid gloves at some point. Like, I don't mind if a fresh 50 or 60 has a bit of trepidation towards pulling more than two groups of enemies. At level 70 I'll roll my eyes and grumble a bit, but I won't say anything. At 80 I just gotta ask, what the heck is going on? If they want to pull single packs and take their time, why not just run with trusts instead of wasting three other player's time?

SE literally introduced a new mode to allow players to run dungeons at their leisure without having to deal with other players and yet we still have to deal with single-pulling tanks in dungeons that are almost unfathomably toothless. Paglth'an is so hilariously undertuned that a Warrior can solo the entirety of it without a healer and two dps to back them up. Whether there's 3 mobs or 10, tank gameplay doesn't change. Just spam your aoe, use your cooldowns, and dodge enemy aoes.

No more excuses.

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My thoughts exactly, thank you.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Exactly, they can do it in trusts. So if they arent "comfortable" in doing it, why not just run with trusts instead of wasting 3 other players' time with it.New players at 80 and 90? The amount of time it takes to get there, people should more than know their job. You get more tools at your disposal not less.

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Why would new players know when/if/how to wall to wall pull when it's basically suicide when you're leveling, and ineffective in trusts? 80 roulettes are the first time they're confronted with that expectation, and not everyone is comfortable with it right away.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Why would new players know when/if/how to wall to wall pull when it's basically suicide when you're leveling, and ineffective in trusts? 80 roulettes are the first time they're confronted with that expectation, and not everyone is comfortable with it right away.

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I'm sorry to tell you, but If you're 80, you're not new anymore.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

There is no excuse for a tank to not mass pull in an endgame dungeon.

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There's no excuse for the healer to be a jerk about it either. I can see from the chat log that they said literally nothing - not even "hi" - before going on to pull the second group. How about starting with "Could we do big pulls?" and when the tank tells they're not comfortable offer an "Could we try one anyway? I know I can heal it."

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Originally Posted by tdb

There's no excuse for the healer to be a jerk about it either. I can see from the chat log that they said literally nothing - not even "hi" - before going on to pull the second group. How about starting with "Could we do big pulls?" and when the tank tells they're not comfortable offer an "Could we try one anyway? I know I can heal it."

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So not saying hi is being a jerk? Yes he went on to pull the second group because it should be common knowledge and expected that a tank pulls more than one group. The point is in the literal last dungeon of the expansion, people shouldn’t have to ask to do big pulls, it should be the norm.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

So not saying hi is being a jerk? Yes he went on to pull the second group because it should be common knowledge and expected that a tank pulls more than one group. The point is in the literal last dungeon of the expansion, people shouldn’t have to ask to do big pulls, it should be the norm.

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So, you make up your own rules about what should happen, don't bother to mention your made up rules to the group, then act like a jerk to everyone who doesn't follow them?

It really is fortunate that most people in the actual game aren't as unreasonable as the people on the forums.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

So, you make up your own rules about what should happen, don't bother to mention your made up rules to the group, then act like a jerk to everyone who doesn't follow them?

It really is fortunate that most people in the actual game aren't as unreasonable as the people on the forums.

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Incredible, absolutely mind boggling. In all my years of playing this game, I have never met anyone even half as delusional as you are. Arguing against the usage of essences using hilariously faulty "math" and being over the top condescending towards anyone that corrected you, defending "you pull it you tank it" mentality when a single tank aoe is more than enough to get an enemy's attention, and supporting single pulling tanks in endgame dungeons when they could just use trusts instead of wasting other players time. All while morally grandstanding and making sweeping generalizations about an entire forum at that.

I can only thank my lucky stars that I'll never end up in a party with you, because you are the very epitome of everything I aspire not to be.

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Originally Posted by tdb

There's no excuse for the healer to be a jerk about it either. I can see from the chat log that they said literally nothing - not even "hi" - before going on to pull the second group. How about starting with "Could we do big pulls?" and when the tank tells they're not comfortable offer an "Could we try one anyway? I know I can heal it."

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I didn't think it was worth mentioning that I tabbed out while I waited for everyone to accept the queue pop and when I tabbed back in the tank was already moving forward so my immediate action was to sprint and catch up. That said, sometimes I greet, sometimes I don't. I typically don't say anything in a group unless I see something in somebody's search info that's interesting, I like their glam, etc. - things of that nature. I'm kind of jaded to the whole greeting random people I'll likely never see again thing. It's reflexive to most people and it means nothing to them so I don't put much stock in somebody going "o/" or "meowdy" making them a nicer person than me.

Again, while the other people ended up siding with the tank they were right there with me running towards the 2nd pull. If one of them had hit an enemy on purpose or on accident I would have healed them because that's my role and the enemies would be attacking me and the tank wouldn't be helping because she's trying to prove a point. She couldn't even see who hit the second group anyway come to think of it, since she was around that first corner.

This kind of thing usually doesn't happen anyway since in most 80 content tanks won't pretend they're in a leveling roulette.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

Incredible, absolutely mind boggling. In all my years of playing this game, I have never met anyone even half as delusional as you are. Arguing against the usage of essences using hilariously faulty "math" and being over the top condescending towards anyone that corrected you, defending "you pull it you tank it" mentality when a single tank aoe is more than enough to get an enemy's attention, and supporting single pulling tanks in endgame dungeons when they could just use trusts instead of wasting other players time. All while morally grandstanding and making sweeping generalizations about an entire forum at that.

I can only thank my lucky stars that I'll never end up in a party with you, because you are the very epitome of everything I aspire not to be.

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Hmm, let's see... Not responding to what I actually said... Bringing up and completely misrepresenting old and irrelevant discussions... Acting offended and outraged to the point where I can only imagine you're typing through an ocean of tears...

If a tank wants to single pull in an 80 dungeon and the rest of the group is fine with it then there's nothing you can do about it, no matter how big a tantrum you throw. So, keep to the forums where there's a handful of other people that will affirm your petty nonsense. I'd be more than fine with never having to deal with you in-game as well.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

Incredible, absolutely mind boggling. In all my years of playing this game, I have never met anyone even half as delusional as you are. Arguing against the usage of essences using hilariously faulty "math" and being over the top condescending towards anyone that corrected you, defending "you pull it you tank it" mentality when a single tank aoe is more than enough to get an enemy's attention, and supporting single pulling tanks in endgame dungeons when they could just use trusts instead of wasting other players time. All while morally grandstanding and making sweeping generalizations about an entire forum at that.

I can only thank my lucky stars that I'll never end up in a party with you, because you are the very epitome of everything I aspire not to be.

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Personally I really enjoy his presence on the forums; He's like a bellwether that instantly indicates whatever the wrong side of any argument is, because you can be damn sure he'll be there arguing it.

He'll roll up in your thread and say things like:

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Also, always giving peoples poor behavior the benefit of the doubt doesn't help anyone.

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While demanding in 10 other threads that he should be given the benefit of the doubt for his own extremely poor behavior.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

Personally I really enjoy his presence on the forums; He's like a bellwether that instantly indicates whatever the wrong side of any argument is, because you can be damn sure he'll be there arguing it.

He'll roll up in your thread and say things like:

While demanding in 10 other threads that he should be given the benefit of the doubt for his own extremely poor behavior.

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Eh, I've never asked for the benefit of the doubt on anything here. I don't really care how you feel about my stances.

Honestly, forum communities are usually where most of a games belligerent tryhards gather. It's always a little entertaining, but in this game it's on another level. To elaborate; tryhards in less casual games usually have some relevant threads to pull. They can come up with at least semi-coherent rationale behind how "casual" mindsets ruin the game, because content actually isn't getting cleared.

In FFXIV, however... It's the horrors of a single pulling tanks, a no DPS healer or a no AOE DPS making the run take an extra 5-7 minutes. You people are a joke, and I'll randomly hang out here until it stops being funny. ;)

that's sad

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

that's sad

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Does single pulling upset you? Tell me all about it.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

So not saying hi is being a jerk? Yes he went on to pull the second group because it should be common knowledge and expected that a tank pulls more than one group. The point is in the literal last dungeon of the expansion, people shouldn’t have to ask to do big pulls, it should be the norm.

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Originally Posted by FrogDog

I didn't think it was worth mentioning that I tabbed out while I waited for everyone to accept the queue pop and when I tabbed back in the tank was already moving forward so my immediate action was to sprint and catch up. That said, sometimes I greet, sometimes I don't. I typically don't say anything in a group unless I see something in somebody's search info that's interesting, I like their glam, etc. - things of that nature. I'm kind of jaded to the whole greeting random people I'll likely never see again thing. It's reflexive to most people and it means nothing to them so I don't put much stock in somebody going "o/" or "meowdy" making them a nicer person than me.

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The lack of a greeting is beside the point. I only mentioned it to highlight the apparent fact that you made no effort to communicate your wishes to the group before trying to force them to play your way. If pulling the second group occurred by accident in the chaos of starting the dungeon, then fair enough, it happens. But don't you think you could have tried to kindly coax the tank to try big pulls rather than berate them for being bad? Yes, I know big pulls are the norm and the dungeons are designed that way, but sometimes you encounter people who have managed to lead sheltered lives up until now. What do you stand to lose by at least trying to get along with others?

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Does single pulling upset you? Tell me all about it.

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no, why would it? I'll just adjust and finish the dungeon and take a bit longer
it's odd that you think people must be upset about something if they criticize it, though, like almost as if you don't understand that those things are separate from each other

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Originally Posted by tdb

The lack of a greeting is beside the point. I only mentioned it to highlight the apparent fact that you made no effort to communicate your wishes to the group before trying to force them to play your way. If pulling the second group occurred by accident in the chaos of starting the dungeon, then fair enough, it happens. But don't you think you could have tried to kindly coax the tank to try big pulls rather than berate them for being bad? Yes, I know big pulls are the norm and the dungeons are designed that way, but sometimes you encounter people who have managed to lead sheltered lives up until now. What do you stand to lose by at least trying to get along with others?

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it's level 80 content with 500 minimum ilvl, you have to actively try to get killed by mobs as a tank
why must those with "a sheltered life" be sheltered further by other people? why must everyone bow to their whims because otherwise you'll be seen as a toxic elitist by the virtue signallers?

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

no, why would it? I'll just adjust and finish the dungeon and take a bit longer
it's odd that you think people must be upset about something if they criticize it, though, like almost as if you don't understand that those things are separate from each other

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Hmm, that's not a hilariously tryhard take at all.

Where did BaconBits and that other guy go? They were bringing the fun.

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

it's level 80 content with 500 minimum ilvl, you have to actively try to get killed by mobs as a tank
why must those with "a sheltered life" be sheltered further by other people? why must everyone bow to their whims because otherwise you'll be seen as a toxic elitist by the virtue signallers?

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Did I say everyone should bow to their whims? Whatever the way they've managed to avoid doing big pulls so far, I don't think being rude about it is going to convince them otherwise. Is it really so unthinkable to actually discuss with people and at least trying to come to an agreement before forcing your own playstyle on others? And yes, I realize this goes both ways. A tank wishing to single pull could ask the others if they're okay with it. But if they don't and just stop at the first group, you can be the bigger person and politely inform them that that isn't the norm here and would they please at least try to do big pulls.

Ah yes the classics.

Down with the single pull tanks.

Level 80 isn't new.