I think I want subjobs more than I want job balance.

Damn shame that the FF XI remake got cancelled. Could have been an opportunity to bring a different kind of FF up to modern UI and graphics standard.

A xiv sub job system could work in theory but they would say it's unfeasible due to the gargantuan resource drain to implement and balance all permutations. Or if they left it wildly unbalanced they would want to restrict its usage down like limited jobs.

Dragoon + Paladin = Holy Dragoon tanking with spear and spells.
Blm + Whm = Sorcerer like ShB Y'stola.
Monk + Ninja = Black Belt greased huton.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jojoya

You don't need to be meta to clear content. All the meta does is offer a slight advantage when you and/or others in your party not competent at performing your jobs

---

You are absolutely correct, video game content is never tuned to require meta to be beaten, if you got a team of decent people and arent metaslaves you will progress fine, if anything you ll progress faster than the average metaslaving group since you can think for yourself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jojoya

It's not customization that creates metaslaves. It's incompetence.

---

I wouldnt blame the devs for its mere existence, dev incompetence can make things worse if they refuse to make frequent adjustments and let things be so they are not "disruptive" to FotM metaslaves. And since the only way to hurt the meta is to make frequent changes, things only become worse in those cases.
If you are talking about players then it would be on a really subconscious level cuz I ve seen a few people who unironically think and act like they are the gods gift to humanity while all they do is simply play the most busted spec/builds at that moment, it is scary that a person can become this delusional FROM A VIDEO GAME!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jojoya

Save yourself hassle. Make some like minded friends and form a static instead of relying on PF, which is filled with incompetent players who need to lean on meta

---

I wish that was an easy thing to achieve, easily the fastest and most fun way of getting through content, arguably one of the harder things to find though, I came from WoW where i already had to jump around 3-4 guilds trying to find that "like minded" group and when things started looking like they were working, guild died for unrelated reasons and it can be pretty mentally tiring having to start all over again trying to find yet another guild with the hopes that people there will be good and also hope it isnt gonna die for whatever reason.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ralph2449

RIDICULOUSLY INFLATED ELITIST REQUIREMENTS

---

Feel free to make your own group without those "elitists" then.

I'd take anything if it meant we get more variety. Tanks and healers are the worst in that regard.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Payadopa

I'd take anything if it meant we get more variety. Tanks and healers are the worst in that regard.

---

It's been interesting watch MMOs fold back on themselves with support roles. People who played the granddaddy mmos remember when "healer" and "tank" didn't really just mean sit and heal or get punched/not die. You were a dps that skewed into a more group support role, as these early mmos were heavily inspired by D&D gameplay.

Then we went through a period of dedicated healing and tanking roles in mmos. That doesn't mean tanks and healers ever stopped doing damage, but the kit you had was clipped severely. You stop healing or let your mitigation fall off and your party is done! It's been slow, but lots of mmo games have been returning H/T to support rather than pure roles. FF14 just seems slow by hacking away at our toys, and giving us more oGCD heals than we can carry when everything but the upper crust of content in this game really requires you to hardcast a heal.

As a healer? I would enjoy a more support style gameplay for those days that I'm not having to hardcast a heal, one that feeds back into healing or mitigation would be a good synergy of playstyle.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LisSquid

It's been interesting watch MMOs fold back on themselves with support roles. People who played the granddaddy mmos remember when "healer" and "tank" didn't really just mean sit and heal or get punched/not die. You were a dps that skewed into a more group support role, as these early mmos were heavily inspired by D&D gameplay

---

You are forgetting that MMO's design the skillkit of classes also in a way, which works for both PvE and PvP at the same time. Not only does doing so allow for alot of variety, it is even necessary to do so, or else, one class might not only become too close in terms of gameplay to another, but it aldo creates a concept which is completely alien in FFXIV: a learning curve.

FFXIV shot itself into the foot with its numerous quality of life improvements in the combat system, and instead of treating the wound, it was left to rot and now the only way to fix this, is to cut off both legs.

What i mean is, FFXIV's Job design doesn't even have any focus on what their Jobs are suppoest to be. Just by comparing the Jobs inside their designated role, you can clearly see how many things those have in common, and how little they don't. They may have eliminated the weakness which Healers and Tanks used to have back then, but it was those weaknesses that defined those two roles in the first place and managing to keep multiple healing/tank classes within a game as unique as possible from one another, is what i would call a fun experience, and balance shouldnt have a place in this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LisSquid

It's been interesting watch MMOs fold back on themselves with support roles. People who played the granddaddy mmos remember when "healer" and "tank" didn't really just mean sit and heal or get punched/not die. You were a dps that skewed into a more group support role, as these early mmos were heavily inspired by D&D gameplay.

---

Again though you are forgetting that the gaming community has changed tremendously since those old days.

That attitude existed back then which allowed people to see games just as video games to have fun, not some source of self worth via obsessive parsing, classic wow was the perfect example because it showed that what made vanilla different was that the gaming community wasnt the disaster that it is today, with the current gaming community classic was instantly filled with elitist metaslaves that demand people minmax literally the smallest things in a game that doesnt require even half of that performance.

You believe that if a game becomes popular and has the system you are thinking, that it wont instantly devolve into "X meta build for Y" and most people wont just copy those premade builds?

It doesnt matter how many options the devs create, the metaslave mindset has afflicted so many people in the gaming community in general that their initial response to any game is to google "what is the best build for what they are doing" because they have completely forgotten what it is to play games casually, choose the playstyle you enjoy and learn them yourself instead of copy pasting whatever xXxL33TGuidexXx says, they dont think for themselves, they dont care about exploring, they just obsess over minmaxing because either they are the elitist types that confuse video games as some triumphant achievement and love to gatekeep themselves or because they want to do group content but wont be able to do that content due to the gatekeeping so their resigned themselves to blindly following the "best build" as well.

The amount of people who are knowingly going to choose a sub optimal build are very few and far between.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ralph2449

Again though you are forgetting that the gaming community has changed tremendously since those old days.

That attitude existed back then which allowed people to see games just as video games to have fun, not some source of self worth via obsessive parsing, classic wow was the perfect example because it showed that what made vanilla different was that the gaming community wasnt the disaster that it is today, with the current gaming community classic was instantly filled with elitist metaslaves that demand people minmax literally the smallest things in a game that doesnt require even half of that performance.

You believe that if a game becomes popular and has the system you are thinking, that it wont instantly devolve into "X meta build for Y" and most people wont just copy those premade builds?

It doesnt matter how many options the devs create, the metaslave mindset has afflicted so many people in the gaming community in general that their initial response to any game is to google "what is the best build for what they are doing" because they have completely forgotten what it is to play games casually, choose the playstyle you enjoy and learn them yourself instead of copy pasting whatever xXxL33TGuidexXx says, they dont think for themselves, they dont care about exploring, they just obsess over minmaxing because either they are the elitist types that confuse video games as some triumphant achievement and love to gatekeep themselves or because they want to do group content but wont be able to do that content due to the gatekeeping so their resigned themselves to blindly following the "best build" as well.

The amount of people who are knowingly going to choose a sub optimal build are very few and far between.

---

Have we met? I am not sure you understood the conversation I was engaging with as you seem to assume I'm taking about character builds vs dev assigned class kits.

Healer and tank design in 14 right now is terrible. Spamming one button isn't fun, but it's a consolation prize left over from "keep healing or die" playstyle that has fallen out of fashion inside 14 and the rest of mmos in general. There hasn't been an increase of other activities for healers to do while damage has actually gone down.

Why do you think GNB is so popular as a tank? It's not because of meta chasing. Ask any GNB main and they'll say it's because it's fun. It has such a small, nice little rotation, but that is more than they have given any of the support jobs. In fact they removed the already paltry amount of non-healing buttons from SCH and, well, you can see the still unfolding fallout on the healer forums.

And do not bring that "pure healer mindset" to me and call me a meta chaser for wanting more engaging healer play. Really, heal anything besides alliance raid or dungeon wall-to-walls and observe your key clicks as a healer. A whole lot of one button with a dot refresh.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ralph2449

And the irony is most of those people aren’t that great, I say that because I am the opposite of a metaslave, I am one of the few people that choose fun underperforming builds and chose the sub optimal covenant and I more often than not performed better than them in the real encounter which always results in ‘omg I didn’t know this thing was good, I always thought it was trash cuz my l33t meta guide told me’.
What matters to them isn’t real performance, it is what a raidbots sim or Warcraftlog 99 parse says

---

Settle down, Mr. Enlightenment.

These guides contain information that took significant effort from their respective authors to compile and that amount of effort deserves some respect.

Feel free to ignore them, but don't let your Dunning-Kruger cognitive bias convince you that you know any better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LariaKirin

Settle down, Mr. Enlightenment.

These guides contain information that took significant effort from their respective authors to compile and that amount of effort deserves some respect.

Feel free to ignore them, but don't let your Dunning-Kruger cognitive bias convince you that you know any better.

---

It's funny, to read his posts he's one of the most toxic elitists I've ever seen, what with him constantly putting down others who enjoy a specific content style and the way they go about learning to enter that content.

Methinks he doth protest too much personally.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jojoya

It's not customization that creates metaslaves. It's incompetence. You don't need to be meta to clear content. All the meta does is offer a slight advantage when you and/or others in your party not competent at performing your jobs.

---

Do you mean incompetence on the part of the players or the devs?
(realistically it would probably be a little of both, but which were you trying to get at when you wrote this?)

Getting off the Bravely Default II high from last month, as much as I would also like the idea of subjobs it would risk the playerbase trying to pidgeonhole you to a subjob for your main. Same with merit points, which I was totally all for but most pushed back on that idea.

I would LOVE to rock SAM/NIN and do some jutsus and have trick attack for even more damage output, but that would be crazy broken.

I like to use the silence and stun on Dark Knight and pretend it actually does something other than silence/stun.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LariaKirin

Settle down, Mr. Enlightenment.

These guides contain information that took significant effort from their respective authors to compile and that amount of effort deserves some respect.

Feel free to ignore them, but don't let your Dunning-Kruger cognitive bias convince you that you know any better.

---

You mean the guide writers that go around saying "Customization only gives you the choice to be bad" because they have completely forgotten there's such a thing such as fun or preferred playstyles?
Let's not even talk about the idea that some unironically tell themselves they are "experts" in a VIDEO GAME of all things lmao

These people make guides so they can tell you what to do, what to play, what to think about in a video game, let's ignore the fact that this doesnt sound like a fun video game and more like a job these people arent somekind of authority to matter, many of these people in WoW are just metaslave elitists who dont really care about those dirty underperforming builds so they optimize the sims what seems to be the meta, sims are never optimized for every single possible build combination because that is too much effort from your """"experts"""".
And i ve seen how dangerous that mentality is because it creates zombies that follow such people, let's say a wow spriest legendary that the """"experts"""" kept saying is trash lead to that legendary never to be used by most people so there were no high parsing logs to show that it is the real more optimal choice, it took the """"experts""" to find the error in their sims months after the game's launch in order to find out what they kept calling trash was actually the optimal choice and of course the typical metaslaves instantly followed the holy word of their """experts"""


For example wowhead is a site that used to be about giving updates and factual information about the game, in the latest expansion though it has been turned into opinion pieces and spam of the type "X streamer tells you the top 5 meta class" "X expert tells you why you should not play those 5 non meta specs" "Why you should play meta for this content" "Random useless """expert""" we hired has to make articles to justify their pay so we made him literally repeat the changes that were found in the patch notes which you can literally learn by reading the patchnotes yourself"
And that type of content only makes the community worse, as if WoW community needed help becoming even more elitist and metaslaving xD

So no, dont try to turn FF14 into WoW, customization is not something that the current generation of gamers can handle and we have TONS OF PROOF that shows what happens when any form of customization exists

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Payadopa

I'd take anything if it meant we get more variety.

---

Unless variety gives multiple valid options, it's unnecessary complications.

Also, variety for the sake of variety results in annoyances like differences between how tank "invulnerability ability" works with each tank.

I'd rather take the same skill (preferably paladin's, though warrior's is fine too) with different visual effects than what we have now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ralph2449

So no, dont try to turn FF14 into WoW, customization is not something that the current generation of gamers can handle and we have TONS OF PROOF that shows what happens when any form of customization exists

---

I disagree with the premise of this thread because I think balance is important. Customization is not the cause of exclusion. It makes balance harder, but ultimately, the cause of exclusion is imbalance. Square Enix puts alot of effort into balancing jobs in this game because they want all jobs to be played. It will never turn into WoW in this respect.

I'm more interested in the other nonsense which has nothing to do with the thread.

I don't know where you get this idea that the players who make guides have some sort of ulterior motive to control how you play. The only way it can be interpreted as prescriptive is if and only if you are looking to get the most DPS out of your job, in which case you should appreciate the effort they're putting into figuring out the mathematically optimal way to achieve that goal and making that information public.

The amount of misplaced rage and hate you have towards these players makes Deathwing look like a chill dude. Relax and take some time to understand that exclusion is the fault of imbalance and imbalance is the fault of Blizzard's incompetence. Not that of players simply putting out information.

The weight of the WoW baggage you're carrying wouldn't fit in a Boeing 747. You should probably sort that out before you talk about what is or isn't healthy.

I'm completely and utterly against this idea. Balance and job integrity is way better than sub jobs. Sub jobs really offers nothing. How does a subjob offer more customization than just... choosing a different job? Especially if it comes at the cost of balance, because then you can choose to play a subpar job, but your choice would be wrong.

We had "sub jobs" with the cross job skills that they eventually removed. Let's not repeat past mistakes.

FFXIV really needs more gameplay related customization but it doesn't necessarily need to comes as subjobs.

Quote:

---

We had "sub jobs" with the cross job skills that they eventually removed. Let's not repeat past mistakes.

---

The issue with old cross job skills in 1.0 is that you could get ealmost every skill on your character, resulting in people being able to get everything. There is a middle ground between too little and too much.

As for balance, every boss start to be reskinned variation of the same one gameplay wise (dodge aoe, go there to soak, go stand over here, with tank and raid busters). So yes, if everything is the same the game is indeed balanced. Is it interesting though ? I m not so sure about that.

One more thing to consider, XIV may have a simplistic job and combat system but the game has complicated fights. Once you get into ex, Savage, and ultimate, you appreciate the simpler jobs to focus more on the mechanics.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stanelis

The issue with old cross job skills in 1.0 is that you could get ealmost every skill on your character, resulting in people being able to get everything. There is a middle ground between too little and too much.

---

They are talking about 2.0 where you had to level other jobs to get certain actions, like having to level Gladiator for Provoke at level 22?, Swiftcast for mages from Thaumaturge at 26, Blood for Blood, Internal Release, Raging Strikes etc. Some people didn't want to level a different job either due to wanting their character to just be the one job, they had no interest in another job and didnt want to be forced to level it etc.

On the topic as a whole, how would it even work? You give a RDM access to flare and...so? How would that then fit into their rotation? You could give flare the ability to generate black mana, but it also leaves you with no MP, so you would need a way to get it back. Even if you give them, say, Fire/Blizzard 1, those 2 are weaker than Jolt 2, so what is the point?

Going onto Melee, what would, say, Monk gain out of actions from other jobs? With its more fluid combo system, you chose 1 of 2 actions (for single target) when you hit each stance. Leaden fist is way too strong for something to delay that, twin is a straight damage buff, demolish is a DoT, so you are left with True Strike and Snap Punch. You would, again, only replace them with stronger skills, this is assuming the skills from other jobs even advanced the form in the first place and if it doesn't, well, it then wouldn't be worth it, again, due to Leaden Fist. If you want to take oGCDs, ok, Lance Charge and Life Surge from DRG, Can't complain about more damage and having another guaranteed crit on say, True Strike/Snap Punch, well, that is just more damage. Though, taking Samurai instead, hmm, assuming you get a way to generate Kenki, Hissatsu: Kaiten on a Leaden Fist Bootshine would be stupid amounts of damage. However, assume you can generate Keni, which would be better damage wise? Lance Charge or Kaiten? etc.

Notice how alot of things here are, if we ASSUME it works the same, ASSUME I can generate Kenki etc. Alot of actions are so ingrained into the job and all push it further into it's rotation that it really doesn't benefit another job taking it. If DRG takes more GCDs, they start dropping Disembowel and Chaos Thrust and delaying the refresh of LotD. If Samurai's delay their GCD, that delays their Iaijutsu, which also delays Shoha etc.

Adding in sub jobs would mean a complete rework of how the jobs function. There will always be a best 2-3 combinations that work the best (lets be honest, with the current system, how would a WHM benefit MNK at all?), and anyone doing anything else than these main combinations are just hindering the group. This also doesn't take into account how different skills scale on different stats, that Full Thrust from DRG might be strong, but stick it on a caster and it will hit like a wet noodle.

As already stated, I m not saying it should come as subjobs. There are a lot of MMOPG (as a matter of fact, every single one of them except FFXIV) which allow some sort of customization. Be it through specializations, talents, etc.

Also, I didn't have any issue with 2.0 functionality as all my jobs were 50 before it was launched.

Quote:

---

On the topic as a whole, how would it even work?

---

The hell if I know, I m not one of SE's game designer. I only know FFXIV is sorely lacking in terms of gameplay related customization options (and I also include gearing in this statement).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stanelis

As already stated, I m not saying it should come as subjobs. There are a lot of MMOPG (as a matter of fact, every single one of them except FFXIV) which allow some sort of customization. Be it through specializations, talents, etc.

Also, I didn't have any issue with 2.0 functionality as all my jobs were 50 before it was launched.



The hell if I know, I m not one of SE's game designer. I only know FFXIV is sorely lacking in terms of gameplay related customization options (and I also include gearing in this statement).

---

They would all likely boil down to SAM/Sub anyway. Why take a drg, when Sam gets access to its raid utility and does more damage. Why take nin? Why take mnk?

They have to neuter them so much it becomes "well what's the point".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

They would all likely boil down to SAM/Sub anyway. Why take a drg, when Sam gets access to its raid utility and does more damage. Why take nin? Why take mnk?

They have to neuter them so much it becomes "well what's the point".

---

What you re pointing out is only an issue because all bosses are virtually identical in their design in FFXIV (and is already seen at endgame in shadowbringer). If there were several types of encounters, then the BIS wouldn't be the same on each encounter.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stanelis

If there were several types of encounters, then the BIS wouldn't be the same on each encounter.

---

Which comes with its own set of issues. Why invite a SAM to a DRG fight? Why invite a BRD to a RDM fight?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stanelis

What you re pointing out is only an issue because all bosses are virtually identical in their design in FFXIV (and is already seen at endgame in shadowbringer). If there were several types of encounters, then the BIS wouldn't be the same on each encounter.

---

When that happens we just get fights were certain jobs aren't welcome, we've been here before, many many times. SE's philosophy is to make sure every job can do every fight, probably because 75 FFXI was such an utter mess in this regard. It brings us back to the original post, it's pitched as balance vs sub jobs. Having played a game with sub jobs for over a decade I'd chose balance, because choice is but an illusion anyway with sub jobs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ralph2449

Let's not even talk about the idea that some unironically tell themselves they are "experts" in a VIDEO GAME of all things lmao

---

Whats wrong with that? You can be an expert at video games. Hell there's literally a billion dollar industry in e-sports which is full of expert gamers. and it doesn't look like it's going away anytime soon.
Although I probably wouldnt last 5 minutes today I have trophies from national counterstrike tournaments that I did in my younger days (2002-2003) So it wouldn't be innacurate to say I iwas considered an expert player.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ralph2449

And as usual you create the false demeaning conclusion that those "dirty casuals" clearly have nothing better to do other than demand carries left and right and it is the only explanation when they dont reach your l33t performance a streamer/guide/sim told you is """""""required"""""" which is a blatant lie because it isnt required or needed, elitists simply love to gatekeep and put ridiculous requirements even for easy content and WoW classic was a PERFECT example of how the elitist gamers are the problem in games they touch.

---

There is ZERO gatekeeping in this game. from a player perspective at least. Every piece of content is accessible to every single player. at no point do you ever see anyone turn around and say nope! sorry you are not allowed to do this content.. The only gatekeeper in this game is yourself.

If a bunch of top players want to farm a piece of content and put a party finder together They can set whatever requirements they liike. If they're going to be grinding the same encounter for hours it's not toxic or elitist or anything else if they want the runs to go fast and smoothly. Especially if in extreme circumstances where you need 99 primal totems for a mount...

But the important thing here is that even if that persons party finder inflates and sets the item level to one much higher than the content requires and maybe even higher than your best geared job.. That's still not gatekeeping.. You can still go and do that content, just find a party you are eligable to join or even make your own... No one is stopping you from doing that content but yourself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ralph2449

Newsflash, this is a video game, but the elitist gamers TM who confuse a video game as their sense of self worth are ruining games for everyone else with their elitist fake requirements and attitude.

---

Yes this is a video game but there's typically to types of gamers. those that see video games as a supplement to life and enjoy challenges and engaging gameplay. and those who see video games as escapism.

the frist group of people don't need video games to get a sense of self worth. more often than not they already have that. they play video games to push themselves even further and accomplish new goals or the endless strive for personal growth and development and games are just one of many places where they find it.

the second group of people does however tend to use video games to feel some sense of self esteem.. often because they fail at life, cant hold a relationship or a job or anyone of a million reasons and the only sense of self worth they get is getting a shiny reward ina video game. which is why they cry when a shiny reward is too hard for them to get. if someone else hasa shiny they dont they feel inferior and then demand the same shinys becuase it's just a game and they pay the same sub..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dzian

those that see video games as a supplement to life and enjoy challenges and engaging gameplay.

...

the frist group of people don't need video games to get a sense of self worth. more often than not they already have that. they play video games to push themselves even further and accomplish new goals or the endless strive for personal growth and development and games are just one of many places where they find it.

---

Many people who want challenge also want more than simply being challenged. They want validation for overcoming that challenge, otherwise, they wouldn't care if other people are able to get the same reward via other things (like microtransaction or alternative easier content).

Overcoming challenge as its own reward applies to fewer number of people.

At the end of the day, if you want to tie video game with your sense of self-worth, then you'll do it regardless of whether you play for the challenge or for escapism or for something else. It's not exclusive to one group or another.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ralph2449

Newsflash, this is a video game, but the elitist gamers TM who confuse a video game as their sense of self worth are ruining games for everyone else with their elitist fake requirements and attitude.

---

And yet, you're hyper-fixated emotionally on the way that other players choose to define player value, to a degree that I think most people would readily call unhealthy. Talk about obsessed with self-worth; Your entire identity seems to revolve around this singular issue, including even your lodestone profile. It's genuinely no wonder that you have difficulty finding 'likeminded' people to play with in-game; Even people sympathetic to your point of view probably find your degree of obsession disturbing and unnerving.

Deriving self-worth from a video game is extremely important to you, that's why you spend nearly every single day coming here and spamming paragraphs about your grievances with the ways other players define value in this game. Simply put, if it honestly didn't matter, you wouldn't be melting down over it daily.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linayar

Many people who want challenge also want more than simply being challenged. They want validation for overcoming that challenge, otherwise, they wouldn't care if other people are able to get the same reward via other things (like microtransaction or alternative easier content).

Overcoming challenge as its own reward applies to fewer number of people.

At the end of the day, if you want to tie video game with your sense of self-worth, then you'll do it regardless of whether you play for the challenge or for escapism or for something else. It's not exclusive to one group or another.

---

That goes into the realm of motivation and intrinsic vs extrinsic... Whether you do the challenge for the challenge its self. (Intrinsic) or for the rewards at the end (extrinsic) or even a cmbination of both. it makes no real difference in the grand scheme of things. both forms of motivation are perfectly fine.

Many players don't care for what other people have. What they care about is what a reward or trophy represents or signifies. i.e the challenge that was overcome to earn it..

Many wouldn't care less if literally 100% of players had the same reward IF they beat the same challenge to get it..

It's like the Olympics. A gold medal should be earnt by winning... If they started handing them out to everyone just for turning up then a gold medal essentially becomes meaningless.
That's essentially what they do with in game rewards. Just dish em out to everyone and destroy everything they represent and signify.

It's not about how many people have x it's about what x represents to many people.. Just take a look back at the white ravens fiasco and the uproar that caused. Totally destroying what an item represents is bad.

And back then many people would have been happy if the items being dished out freely were simply called replicas.. as the original items would have maintained there meaning.. the difference is small but still important to a lot of people.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rongway

In the golden days of FFXI, while you could sub whatever you wanted, there were a specific short list of sub jobs that were considered "acceptable" or "effective" and if your search info listed you as a subjob that didn't fall into the "effective" subjob list for your main job, you were asked to change or not invited at all.

---

This right here. Probably the main reason they don't do it, is because they want content accessible by everyone, and nobody left out because they don't have X job/ability. Which I agree with. I like being able to get on any job and enjoy content, without being told I need to change something.

I still remember the first time I installed FFXI. I sat down and read the book that came with it, as well as the infamous Brady Guide that was wrong on just about everything. You know, the one that told you WAR/WHM will get your ready for PLD.

Well as I sat there and watched thousands of files get checked, disconnected, then thousands of files get checked, then disconnected... well you get the point. As I sat there and watched that, I thought how cool it would be to start as RDM. Because it could imbue its sword with elemental damage. Then later I could switch to RNG/RDM and have elemental-imbued arrows! I'd be this spell-slinging elemental RNG!

Yeah... that didn't work. I found out rather quickly that RDM was "better with a staff," and should be used mainly as a backup healer (later support). I could MB off of the others in a group, but I was told to stand back and help cure. Or I could prepare for my life as a RNG, and go pull monsters back to the group with Dia! How... special I felt.

Also, RDM was deemed worthless as a subjob as RNG for several reasons. My dream of elemental arrows was quickly shattered when I tried using a bow on RDM. So I had to go back and find some other subjob, which inevitably ended up as NIN. Which I absolutely hated leveling. Mainly because it was considered a tank by then, and I didn't like tanking on FFXI. The community didn't allow you to level NIN as a shuriken-slinging, ninjutsu-casting DD either. Even if you had the Gil to support that lifestyle.

Then there was the time I decided to take RDM/NIN to an experience party. The complaining didn't stop during that one. Despite the fact I was keeping everyone Refreshed, dealing damage/debuffing, and even backup healing, it was still not acceptable. One person in the party simply couldn't handle it. How could a RDM be there in ACC gear tearing into things with their two swords? It was blasphemy! They kept whining for me to change to /WHM and staff. So I could stand in the back, cast fewer spells, and do less things for... better support?

I honestly think a lot of FFXI was "I had to do it that way, so you have to as well!" Nobody wanted to innovate. Nobody had the time/patience to try it another way. Once a guide came out for something, that was the way to do it. They were scared of jobs like PUP and BLU. Even BST at one point in time. I remember having a hard time leveling COR at points, because people were too scared of the randomness, and preferred the solid buffs BRD gave them.

These are just my own FFXI experiences, without the nostalgia glasses. Subjobs sound fun and unique in theory. However, the community (or game) dictates which ones are viable options, and you're limited to best-in-slot mandates regardless. It's a false sense of "creativity and self expression."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TarynH

I honestly think a lot of FFXI was "I had to do it that way, so you have to as well!" Nobody wanted to innovate. Nobody had the time/patience to try it another way. Once a guide came out for something, that was the way to do it.

---

With FF14 not taking potentially years to gear up a job like FF11, you don't think things would be different?
More experimenting on an individual level?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ItMe

With FF14 not taking potentially years to gear up a job like FF11, you don't think things would be different?
More experimenting on an individual level?

---

That would be frivolous imo. Gear is too linear on this game, and becomes glamour with the next patch cycle. But gearing up the job really has nothing to do with it. It's about trying to find a viable reason why you would need subjobs in the first place. They might add some small stat boosts. They wouldn't add any real sense of creativity or self-expression.

For instance, I see your main job is DRK. With the role system FFXIV has now, you'd be a tank regardless of what subjob you wanted to experiment with. Even if you wanted to sub WHM to be some weird light DRK, people wouldn't accept it. They'd want you to sub a job that gave you either more tank utility, or more dps utility. So now your self-expression/creativity has already been limited to staying in that DRK role. Then you'd have to look at the options.

DRK with /WAR, /PLD, /GNB would all be monotonous. You'd just be a double tank, and maybe gain at most 5 abilities and a little defense/strength boost. In FFXI, most of those abilities were cut down to level 37 (later 45) potency. So only certain things like provoke would be meaningful.

DRK with /RDM, /SMN, /BLM might give you a little magic damage boost. Their spells would be highly situational, and low potency. Egis would probably be half strength, if you're allowed to summon at all.

DRK with /BRD, /MCH, /DNC maybe you get to dance, sing a song or call out a robot? If this was FFXI, the only good subjob here is DNC. But it was a potent TP-based healer in that game.

DRK with /SAM, /DRG, /MNK will give you a strength boost, and will probably be the most viable option. I'd say most players would demand you have one of these. But even then, this game is not made the same as FFXI, where you had utilities to use with your subjob.

DRK with /WHM, /AST, /SCH great for soloing? Otherwise, get outta here with your Brady Guide WAR/WHM!

Either way you slice this, your best-in-slot subjob is always going to be determined by the player base. You could play all day on an experimental combo on FFXI, as long as you were solo. But as soon as you try to join content with DRG/PUP, people are gonna laugh at you.

Instead of a subjob system, I'd rather see a job mastery system. But as others have said, they have pulled away from that idea multiple times. In order for this to even have a chance at working, they'd have to change major systems of the game. Then they'd have to balance the hell out of it, making the jobs all homogenous in the end anyway. Because this team truly does want you to be able to join content no matter what job you are. FFXI failed in that regard.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TarynH

That would be frivolous imo. Gear is too linear on this game, and becomes glamour with the next patch cycle. But gearing up the job really has nothing to do with it. It's about trying to find a viable reason why you would need subjobs in the first place. They might add some small stat boosts. They wouldn't add any real sense of creativity or self-expression.

---

Yeah, I get that.
But you were talking about people not having time/patience to really play with the system, that they'd just follow guides. You waste much more time in 11 if you try something new and it fails because of how long it can take to accrue the gear to even try your idea out.
The gear in 14 wouldn't make more combos viable, but I was wondering if it wouldn't discourage experimenting the way 11's gear system does.
Not that I think sub jobs would work for 14, but that if we got one some of 11's pitfalls might be circumvented by our linear gear progression.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TarynH

Either way you slice this, your best-in-slot subjob is always going to be determined by the player base. You could play all day on an experimental combo on FFXI, as long as you were solo. But as soon as you try to join content with DRG/PUP, people are gonna laugh at you.

---

Yeah... and it helps that the playerbase isn't a monolithic single mind completely in agreement with itself. Even if you picked "a meta combo" you'd still get harassed by people with different views of the meta.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

Which comes with its own set of issues. Why invite a SAM to a DRG fight? Why invite a BRD to a RDM fight?

---

In a well designed game the party size would allow you to bring both. And you could even imagine bosses designed so well all potential classes would have their use, and not only based on the DPS output. You could also imagine a game where it would be easy to switch jobs without having to grind everything from the beginning.

You could also imagine a game in which there would be several viable equivalents strategies to reach the same result, only with different classes and optimizations. It is how Genshin Impact is designed.

Quote:

---

When that happens we just get fights were certain jobs aren't welcome, we've been here before, many many times. SE's philosophy is to make sure every job can do every fight, probably because 75 FFXI was such an utter mess in this regard. It brings us back to the original post, it's pitched as balance vs sub jobs. Having played a game with sub jobs for over a decade I'd chose balance, because choice is but an illusion anyway with sub jobs.

---

We ve been there on poorly designed games. Also I ll add the issue still remains on FFXIV even with how blands jobs and classes are.

Also, no, there was genuine choice in FFXI pertaiing to subjobs, with often several options that all had their strengths and weaknesses. I m not saying subjobs should come to FFXIV but the "choice is an illusion" or "but it will be unbalanced" excuses are merely excuses told by game companies that can't be bothered to design deep games. It is indeed cheaper to make everything be the same but with different skins than to make a true game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ItMe

Yeah, I get that.
But you were talking about people not having time/patience to really play with the system, that they'd just follow guides. You waste much more time in 11 if you try something new and it fails because of how long it can take to accrue the gear to even try your idea out.

---

People have even less time and patience now, unfortunately. So I'd still wager the majority of people would find that BiS route to subjobs, and stick to it, in even less time. While you're off experimenting, there would already be 3-4 Youtube videos and a subreddit about what you should be doing. The second you stepped into content with your experiment, you'd be told to go find a guide, and promptly vote-kicked.

I have a feeling if they ever added some kind of subjob system to this game, it would be pre-determined subjobs. You wouldn't be able to stray far. Even when you were experimenting on FFXI, you learned not to get too far out of the box. BRD could Charm, but that didn't make BRD/BST a fantastic combo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linayar

Unless variety gives multiple valid options, it's unnecessary complications.

Also, variety for the sake of variety results in annoyances like differences between how tank "invulnerability ability" works with each tank.

I'd rather take the same skill (preferably paladin's, though warrior's is fine too) with different visual effects than what we have now.

---

I completely disagree. Fun trumps everything else and your 'valid options' are highly subjective in the first place. What is valid? Being able to clear? Then all jobs were since 2.0, yet with 5.0 healers and tanks especially were gutted. So it's not that.

And 'unnecessary complications'? What does that even mean? Everything but a click-here-to-win-button is a complication. It's called playing a game. I don't compute.

And your last point about the same skill but with different effects? I honestly don't even know where to begin with this one. Everything is subjective, but dear Lord... Might as well rename classes to Healer 1&2 and Tank 1&2.
If that were to happen I'd honestly just play the MSQ once every two years and unsubscribe for the rest as I find that laughably bad design.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dzian

That goes into the realm of motivation and intrinsic vs extrinsic... Whether you do the challenge for the challenge its self. (Intrinsic) or for the rewards at the end (extrinsic) or even a cmbination of both. it makes no real difference in the grand scheme of things. both forms of motivation are perfectly fine.

Many players don't care for what other people have. What they care about is what a reward or trophy represents or signifies. i.e the challenge that was overcome to earn it..

Many wouldn't care less if literally 100% of players had the same reward IF they beat the same challenge to get it..

It's like the Olympics. A gold medal should be earnt by winning... If they started handing them out to everyone just for turning up then a gold medal essentially becomes meaningless.
That's essentially what they do with in game rewards. Just dish em out to everyone and destroy everything they represent and signify.

It's not about how many people have x it's about what x represents to many people.. Just take a look back at the white ravens fiasco and the uproar that caused. Totally destroying what an item represents is bad.

And back then many people would have been happy if the items being dished out freely were simply called replicas.. as the original items would have maintained there meaning.. the difference is small but still important to a lot of people.

---

That's just it. The reason why game rewards/olympic gold medals become meaningless if they started handing them out to anyone is if those rewards have no intrinsic value of themselves. Thus, they require validation from others to have any meaning, which often is done by making them exclusive by some measure.

Thus, it is merely two sides of the same coin whether you complain about others getting what you don't get or about others getting what you do get. In both cases, it's about caring for extrinsic rewards rather than the intrinsic reward of the achievement/accomplishment itself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stanelis

In a well designed game the party size would allow you to bring both.

---

Realistically, people would just stack on the jobs that are useful for a fight rather than bringing other jobs that are less or not useful at all.

Quote:

---

And you could even imagine bosses designed so well all potential classes would have their use, and not only based on the DPS output. You could also imagine a game where it would be easy to switch jobs without having to grind everything from the beginning.

You could also imagine a game in which there would be several viable equivalents strategies to reach the same result, only with different classes and optimizations. It is how Genshin Impact is designed.

---

You could imagine all of that, but implementing is another. If the devs could do it, more power to them, but until I see any indication that it can be done well, I don't really feel like the idea of taking a risk that would mess with this game that I already like as is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Payadopa

I completely disagree. Fun trumps everything else and your 'valid options' are highly subjective in the first place. What is valid? Being able to clear? Then all jobs were since 2.0, yet with 5.0 healers and tanks especially were gutted. So it's not that.

And 'unnecessary complications'? What does that even mean? Everything but a click-here-to-win-button is a complication. It's called playing a game. I don't compute.

And your last point about the same skill but with different effects? I honestly don't even know where to begin with this one. Everything is subjective, but dear Lord... Might as well rename classes to Healer 1&2 and Tank 1&2.
If that were to happen I'd honestly just play the MSQ once every two years and unsubscribe for the rest as I find that laughably bad design.

---

Indeed, as a video game, fun does trump everything else. And this idea of subjob (or anything like it like talent system, specialization, etc.) does not seem fun to me.

You don't compute "unnecessary?" We have a working job system that works with the game. Thus, subjob is an unnecessary complication.

Not everything is subjective, but I agree that many are, and if you want to laugh at what you subjectively consider "bad design," then you are free to do so. I think it makes sense for a type of ability that mainly serves the same purpose across all jobs within a role to work the same, if not already the same ability.

Tank 1 and Tank 2 is less cool than Warrior and Paladin, in my opinion, but you still want two tanks for normal full composition either way.

I'd love it if they added subjobs and allowed blu to join the duty finder with jobs that have subjobs(and blu wouldn't be able to be or have a subjob).

They could just limit savage to no subjobs or blu. Does balance really matter in other content?

What would sub-jobs even accomplish? OP just says that they miss sub-jobs from XI and that they bring more customization. But to what end? If Yoshi-P added sub-jobs, how in any way does that make the game more fun? If you are suddenly able to use the abilities of say a monk half your level, how would that benefit you in any way, shape, or form? It's not even about balance or The Meta, you would just be adding unnecessary clunk for the sake of "customization". In order for sub-jobs to begin to make sense, you would first need to strip away the combo system the game has, and then readjust all content around that and then end result won't be FFXIV anymore.

Another thing is that more customization and creativity doesn't necessarily mean more fun. Guild Wars 2 tried to get rid of the "holy trinity" of tank, healer, DPS. While leveling up to cap was the most fun leveling experience I've had in an MMO, when I got to the dungeons it just felt like a free-for-all. There was no strategy. I quit shortly after that, especially since FFXIV came back after the wait in between 1.0 and 2.0, so I don't know if it got better, but the experience showed me that ideas don't necessarily end up end up as good as they sounded on paper.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

What would sub-jobs even accomplish? OP just says that they miss sub-jobs from XI and that they bring more customization. But to what end? If Yoshi-P added sub-jobs, how in any way does that make the game more fun? If you are suddenly able to use the abilities of say a monk half your level, how would that benefit you in any way, shape, or form? It's not even about balance or The Meta, you would just be adding unnecessary clunk for the sake of "customization". In order for sub-jobs to begin to make sense, you would first need to strip away the combo system the game has, and then readjust all content around that and then end result won't be FFXIV anymore.

Another thing is that more customization and creativity doesn't necessarily mean more fun. Guild Wars 2 tried to get rid of the "holy trinity" of tank, healer, DPS. While leveling up to cap was the most fun leveling experience I've had in an MMO, when I got to the dungeons it just felt like a free-for-all. There was no strategy. I quit shortly after that, especially since FFXIV came back after the wait in between 1.0 and 2.0, so I don't know if it got better, but the experience showed me that ideas don't necessarily end up end up as good as they sounded on paper.

---

Guild wars 2 is a shitty space type game with aline races lol

But incorrect customization and creativity defines fun in games

There a reason y d2 is still the best game and its cuz the customization lets you design how you play.. Requiring brains for alot of builds and thought

Poe is also extremely fun/godly bevause of it