The toxicity starting to happen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jameseoakes

The healer/DPS could just not pull the extra adds? If people are so worried about pull sizes they could just play tanks themselves rather than pushing this kind of drivel

---

Why can't the tank just grab the extra adds the DPS/Healer pulled and then request they not do that? Why do they get to be petty and grief?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

All this implies I'd need saving, though.

Realistically with a pull not being tanked enemies are going to be hitting at the very least the healer and the a dps, likely both.

A tank is a luxury, just like a healer is. If people are playing with their brains turned on you dont need both to really participate, even on larger pulls.

But hey, go on being petty I guess. I hope I get you in a roulette one day so I can tank a pull as WHM while healing myself and the dps just to help get that ego in check.

---

Maybe if you have a lvl 80 gear in a lvl 15 dungeon you can tank a bunch without dying. But when your ilvl and the dungeon are about the same - good luck healing yourself through a big pull. Depending on the levels and gear of the party even the tank could die from a big pull which actually happens a lot when a low level tank is forced to pull more.

Did you even read what I said? Expecting your party members to have a decency to ask for bigger pulls isn't being petty. Honestly tired of people thinking they know better and rushing ahead instead of communicating with each other.

Oh yes, I have a big ego because I want people to stop acting like they know everything and can dictate others how much to pull and how to run a dungeon.

As a WHM main I feel ashamed when I see other healers pulling things before the tank.
Oh but it's so hard to just be nice to others and use your fingers to ask the tank for a bigger pull instead of using them to do something that isn't a part of your job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nestama

Why can't the tank just grab the extra adds the DPS/Healer pulled and then request they not do that? Why do they get to be petty and grief?

---

If only they listened to that. Some will probably just leave. Everyone's always in a rush and always know better. It's painfully common nowadays and hard to make people listen and understand that you aren't comfortable with a bigger pull. Sometimes letting them tank is the only way to make them stop.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lumivyory

Maybe if you have a lvl 80 gear in a lvl 15 dungeon you can tank a bunch without dying. But when your ilvl and the dungeon are about the same - good luck healing yourself through a big pull. Depending on the levels and gear of the party even the tank could die from a big pull which actually happens a lot when a low level tank is forced to pull more.

Did you even read what I said? Expecting your party members to have a decency to ask for bigger pulls isn't being petty. Honestly tired of people thinking they know better and rushing ahead instead of communicating with each other.

Oh yes, I have a big ego because I want people to stop acting like they know everything and can dictate others how much to pull and how to run a dungeon.

As a WHM main I feel ashamed when I see other healers pulling things before the tank.
Oh but it's so hard to just be nice to others and use your fingers to ask the tank for a bigger pull instead of using them to do something that isn't a part of your job.



If only they listened to that. Some will probably just leave. Everyone's always in a rush and always know better. It's painfully common nowadays and hard to make people listen and understand that you aren't comfortable with a bigger pull. Sometimes letting them tank is the only way to make them stop.

---

Just because you may be incapable of doing something doesn't mean other people are. I've had aggro on the majority of mobs in the final Bardam's pull as a SCH in leveling gear, it's all doable.

What I dont get is the motivation for trying to kill a healer. If you don't want to pull like a normal person for fear of wiping why would you kill your healer which will likely result in a wipe? It's bad cyclic logic. If you're not afraid of wiping due to your need to stroke your tank ego why are you afraid of wiping to pulling normally?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nestama

Why can't the tank just grab the extra adds the DPS/Healer pulled and then request they not do that? Why do they get to be petty and grief?

---

Why did the DPS have to be petty and grief? Two wrongs don't make a right but the blame doesn't lay solely on the tank

Edit: Like I said if the pace of a dungeon is so important to people maybe they should play tanks if they don't want to do that try communicating and maybe compromise a bit.

All these petty "you-pull-you-tank" single pullers in this thread compels me to continue playing tank to the best of my ability, to inspire other newer tank players or wanna-be tanks just as others inspired me before.

As a tank I don't mind if dps or healer pulls more adds. Sure it may help to say that, but in the heat of the moment it might be quicker to just grab the mobs instead of stopping what they are doing and type, or they may be on a controller. Ever try to type on that? No thanks. Them going and grabbing the extra pack IS their way of telling me, "hey, we are doing good I think we can handle more." Then from then on out I will make sure to pull more. As a tank my job is to grab hate, which is stupid easy these days so I can rip hate off any dps/healer easily if they pull. As well as use my cool downs to help mitigate damage, nothing in about the job says I have to be the one pulling, like I said threast is a non issue in the game now, so does it really matter who touches the mobs first anymore?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lumivyory

Yeah that's the downside of it sadly. If the healer decides to heal the DPS and mobs go for them I'll of course save the healer. But sometimes I see likeminded healers that are tired of DPS pulling things too and they just don't heal them :')

---

If the dps pulls on their own (purposefully, accidents are a different thing) and the mobs will go back and the tank doesn't peel, there's no benefit to trying to keep them alive versus letting them die and rezzing. Then only one party member goes down and we can continue on, hopefully with a more careful dps this time.

It really is about communication. If our party is doing good at small pulls and I think we'd be good with bigger, I just tell them something like "Hey, I've got your back if you want to go crazier on the pulls. But I'm good here, too". Most tanks have given it a try unless they knew for sure due to being under-geared or inexperienced that they weren't ready for it. The important part is 1) letting the tank know they have your full support and 2) keeping the choice in their hands.

If they say no, then I just dps more since they're usually pretty okay with just a Regen or such on the smaller pulls. I'm a healer. Doesn't everyone always bitch that we're supposed to adjust? Or is that only when dps want to stand in everything and we're doing it wrong if we adjust to fully support our party the best way we can?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nestama

Why can't the tank just grab the extra adds the DPS/Healer pulled and then request they not do that? Why do they get to be petty and grief?

---

As the person who made the original comment... allow me to be clear here.

I normally would do the "standard" pulls at least in the end game dungeons. When I'm not, it's because I'm in a call with the healer and the healer is telling me in voice chat that they aren't comfortable with any more than what I've got. Or there are also times where I can tell the healer is struggling with smaller packs, so I adjust accordingly. And lastly, I always check the healer's gear before doing a leveling dungeon, so if I see them in gear that's lower than it probably should be for the dungeon we're in, I'll pull smaller. So when the DPS pull those extra mobs, they've made a decision that they think they know better than the person actually expected to pull up the extra slack.

So the situation is more complex than just mere pettiness, though sure, it is. Either way, the DPS shouldn't be the ones determining the size of a pull since they're the two people in the party least impacted by large verses smaller pulls.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

Just because you may be incapable of doing something doesn't mean other people are. I've had aggro on the majority of mobs in the final Bardam's pull as a SCH in leveling gear, it's all doable.

What I dont get is the motivation for trying to kill a healer. If you don't want to pull like a normal person for fear of wiping why would you kill your healer which will likely result in a wipe? It's bad cyclic logic. If you're not afraid of wiping due to your need to stroke your tank ego why are you afraid of wiping to pulling normally?

---

Yeah.. if you are wearing leveling gear you can still tank fine, more than fine, in leveling dungeons.. You can tank all of the dungeons 71-80 (and do big pulls) in augmented scaevan, as an example. They will always blame the tank if they wipe, but I know it's actually the dps, healer, or a combination of the two a lot of the time. Taking two centuries to kill a big pull and having to use up major cds is on them. Unfortunately. DPS often refuse to do aoe, on top of the healer never doing damage. Holy can help quite a bit in pulls..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jameseoakes

The healer/DPS could just not pull the extra adds? If people are so worried about pull sizes they could just play tanks themselves rather than pushing this kind of drivel

---

That isn't the argument though. You're moving the goalpost.

You don't have to like a DPS/healer pulling additional mobs but you refusing to take aggro to "teach them a lesson" immediately puts you at fault because their intentions aren't to cause a wipe. Yours are, even if indirectly. Nevertheless, we're now back to arguing the tank sets the pace and all other parties just have to accept it. Which, in my opinion, is nonsense. If anyone should determine the pace (and I don't believe they should), it'd be the healer since they control your HP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jameseoakes

Why did the DPS have to be petty and grief? Two wrongs don't make a right but the blame doesn't lay solely on the tank

Edit: Like I said if the pace of a dungeon is so important to people maybe they should play tanks if they don't want to do that try communicating and maybe compromise a bit.

---

One more time. It is not griefing.

Griefing means you're deliberately trying to sabotage someone. The equivalent here would be a healer using Rescue only to inadvertently get the DPS killed when said player was perfectly safe but may be trying to sneak in one last hit before moving. Is that griefing? No. You didn't intent to kill the DPS, just as the DPS pulling extra mobs didn't intend to cause a wipe. It just happened.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

Just because you may be incapable of doing something doesn't mean other people are. I've had aggro on the majority of mobs in the final Bardam's pull as a SCH in leveling gear, it's all doable.

What I dont get is the motivation for trying to kill a healer. If you don't want to pull like a normal person for fear of wiping why would you kill your healer which will likely result in a wipe? It's bad cyclic logic. If you're not afraid of wiping due to your need to stroke your tank ego why are you afraid of wiping to pulling normally?

---

Just because you didn't die on that pull it doesn't mean you couldn't potentially die on a different pull. I've tanked as a healer before, sometimes you die, sometimes you live. I didn't say it wasn't doable but a healer isn't suited for taking so much damage.

Where did I ever say anything about killing someone to begin with? You were the one to assume that :')
Do I let people tank when they pull extra mobs? Yes. Do I let them die? No, not usually. I'd only let them die if they were told to stop and didn't listen.

What I don't get is why it's so hard to use a chat instead of silently pulling mobs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lumivyory

Just because you didn't die on that pull it doesn't mean you couldn't potentially die on a different pull. I've tanked as a healer before, sometimes you die, sometimes you live. I didn't say it wasn't doable but a healer isn't suited for taking so much damage.

Where did I ever say anything about killing someone to begin with? You were the one to assume that :')
Do I let people tank when they pull extra mobs? Yes. Do I let them die? No, not usually. I'd only let them die if they were told to stop and didn't listen.

What I don't get is why it's so hard to use a chat instead of silently pulling mobs.

---

That is bannable by the way. If you refuse to heal, rather if you "tell them to stop and they didn't listen", and that is why you didn't heal. Doesn't matter if you did it only once. If you haven't gotten banned be glad they didn't report you, well if you put your little reasoning in the chat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SturmChurro

That is bannable by the way. If you refuse to heal, rather if you "tell them to stop and they didn't listen", and that is why you didn't heal. Doesn't matter if you did it only once. If you haven't gotten banned be glad they didn't report you, well if you put your little reasoning in the chat.

---

Depends on it, if the tank tries to tank everything and dies cause the group is undergeared and he is told to tank smaller pulls and does it again and you let him then die and afterwards kick him that is totally fine and not bannable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

That isn't the argument though. You're moving the goalpost.

You don't have to like a DPS/healer pulling additional mobs but you refusing to take aggro to "teach them a lesson" immediately puts you at fault because their intentions aren't to cause a wipe. Yours are, even if indirectly. Nevertheless, we're now back to arguing the tank sets the pace and all other parties just have to accept it. Which, in my opinion, is nonsense. If anyone should determine the pace (and I don't believe they should), it'd be the healer since they control your HP.



One more time. It is not griefing.

Griefing means you're deliberately trying to sabotage someone. The equivalent here would be a healer using Rescue only to inadvertently get the DPS killed when said player was perfectly safe but may be trying to sneak in one last hit before moving. Is that griefing? No. You didn't intent to kill the DPS, just as the DPS pulling extra mobs didn't intend to cause a wipe. It just happened.

---

The tank should be the one doing the pulling, any consequences are the fault of the person that pulled, it would be best if the tank picks them up but if people are deliberately pulling more than the tank wants with talking about it first they have responsibility for them. You don't pull for the tank with maybe the expectation of a stray mob or patrolling adds that are going to aggro the group anyway. The fault lays with the person that pulled not the tank he was doing his job with the pull he did, if you not happy with that you should talk to them and maybe compromise with them rather than be petty about it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Nevertheless, we're now back to arguing the tank sets the pace and all other parties just have to accept it. Which, in my opinion, is nonsense.

---

The tank doesn't set the pace. The weakest link (mostly between tank and healer, though DPS can factor in) sets the pace. If the tank wants to pull big, but the healer doesn't, then the tank should pull small, and likewise if the tank wants to pull small.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SturmChurro

That is bannable by the way. If you refuse to heal, rather if you "tell them to stop and they didn't listen", and that is why you didn't heal. Doesn't matter if you did it only once. If you haven't gotten banned be glad they didn't report you, well if you put your little reasoning in the chat.

---

We're talking about tanking here though. If they were asked to not pull monsters before the tank does and they just ignored the request then it's their problem. When you're in a party you can't just do whatever pleases you, it's teamwork. A person that doesn't even respond might as well be a bot.

Also since when is it bannable to refuse to heal someone who's stubbornly refusing to work with the party? I'd rather use mana on more important things like keeping the tank alive.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ranaku

Depends on it, if the tank tries to tank everything and dies cause the group is undergeared and he is told to tank smaller pulls and does it again and you let him then die and afterwards kick him that is totally fine and not bannable.

---

I never said kicking was bannable. Refusing to heal however is. Rather, putting in chat that you won't heal because of x or y. They have banned for that before. That's why you see a largely silent community in general, by the way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lumivyory

We're talking about tanking here though. If they were asked to not pull monsters before the tank does and they just ignored the request then it's their problem. When you're in a party you can't just do whatever pleases you, it's teamwork. A person that doesn't even respond might as well be a bot.

Also since when is it bannable to refuse to heal someone who's stubbornly refusing to work with the party? I'd rather use mana on more important things like keeping the tank alive.

---

No, you can just do whatever pleases you actually. You can be a DPS who refuses to do any kind of aoe "difference in playstyle", you tell that player to do aoe YOU get banned. That is how moderation works in this game. THAT is why this game is silent. Your best option is to kick rather than not heal, or just heal them, it would be faster anyway. For that matter, letting a dps die will make the fight take longer too, EVEN IF he was only doing single target damage. Unless you are raising constantly (if you aren't healing, for example) you should have no trouble managing your MP either. Refusing to heal is just nonsensical in general, in my opinion.

It's bannable when you put it in chat. You can grief all day and night, just don't put it in chat. In case people misunderstand, it is, but it isn't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SturmChurro

No, you can just do whatever pleases you actually. You can be a DPS who refuses to do any kind of aoe "difference in playstyle", you tell that player to do aoe YOU get banned. That is how moderation works in this game. THAT is why this game is silent. Your best option is to kick rather than not heal, or just heal them, it would be faster anyway. For that matter, letting a dps die will make the fight take longer too, EVEN IF he was only doing single target damage. Unless you are raising constantly (if you aren't healing, for example) you should have no trouble managing your MP either. Refusing to heal is just nonsensical in general, in my opinion.

It's bannable when you put it in chat. You can grief all day and night, just don't put it in chat.

---

There isn't really a point to put that in chat if the person didn't respond. They obviously aren't reading or are ignoring.
I don't think refusing to heal a griefer is griefing. Pulling more than a tank can take can cause a wipe, and if the DPS who caused it is not even responding then why would we heal or tank for them? That's kind of ridiculous if mods think that we should be healing bots and trolls that don't want to cooperate. We aren't ruining the experience for them, it's quite the other way around.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lumivyory

There isn't really a point to put that in chat if the person didn't respond. They obviously aren't reading or are ignoring.
I don't think refusing to heal a griefer is griefing. Pulling more than a tank can take can cause a wipe, and if the DPS who caused it is not even responding then why would we heal or tank for them? That's kind of ridiculous if mods think that we should be healing bots and trolls that don't want to cooperate. We aren't ruining the experience for them, it's quite the other way around.

---

People have literally been banned for not healing someone in almost this exact same situation. The problem was they put in chat that they wouldn't heal if they continued to do it. The GM banned them because of that. They admitted intent in chat. I disagree with not healing them in general, personally. Kick them instead, if it's that bad. Not tanking or healing will just cause more problems, all because the tank/healer/dps wants to play games like this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lumivyory

We're talking about tanking here though. If they were asked to not pull monsters before the tank does and they just ignored the request then it's their problem. When you're in a party you can't just do whatever pleases you, it's teamwork. A person that doesn't even respond might as well be a bot.

Also since when is it bannable to refuse to heal someone who's stubbornly refusing to work with the party? I'd rather use mana on more important things like keeping the tank alive.

---

No one's role expectation is "read the chat box" nice as that might be. You typing to not pull more can very well be falling on deaf ears, at that point you're literally letting people die just to prove a point. Hence, petty and egotistical.

I really wish people just knew more about this game. If any of you knew what you were talking about you'd not be making these tired arguments because you'd understand you can just tank it its fine but instead because you died one time to a Netflix healer in tam-tara now you've gotta single pull Mt. Gulg.

It is virtually always possible to at minimum double pull. You can have a healbot and single target dps and not only will double pulls work but it you're doing your job as a tank and pushing out your own AoE damage itll still be faster than singles. Instead we need to waste everyone's time for no good reason.

Like I said I hope you try that sort of thing with me some day. I'll heal through it and get a kick going nice and quick after.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

No one's role expectation is "read the chat box" nice as that might be. You typing to not pull more can very well be falling on deaf ears, at that point you're literally letting people die just to prove a point. Hence, petty and egotistical.

I really wish people just knew more about this game. If any of you knew what you were talking about you'd not be making these tired arguments because you'd understand you can just tank it its fine but instead because you died one time to a Netflix healer in tam-tara now you've gotta single pull Mt. Gulg.

It is virtually always possible to at minimum double pull. You can have a healbot and single target dps and not only will double pulls work but it you're doing your job as a tank and pushing out your own AoE damage itll still be faster than singles. Instead we need to waste everyone's time for no good reason.

Like I said I hope you try that sort of thing with me some day. I'll heal through it and get a kick going nice and quick after.

---

This is an MMO game. Not a single player. You have to communicate with other people sooner or later. And if someone is refusing to look at their chat letting them take some damage is a good way to make them read it.

I don't care if I can tank it or not. What I care about is some simple decency. It's not hard to ask "can you do bigger pulls?". Are your fingers gonna fall off if you ask the tank instead of just going ahead and pulling things or what?

I see you didn't read again what I said. Letting people facetank things for a few seconds =/= killing. I never once said anything about letting anyone die. So I fail to see where this is a waste of time.
You'd be kicking me after not healing me even tho I'm doing my job lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linayar

The tank doesn't set the pace. The weakest link (mostly between tank and healer, though DPS can factor in) sets the pace. If the tank wants to pull big, but the healer doesn't, then the tank should pull small, and likewise if the tank wants to pull small.

---

Could not disagree more. Nobody is ever going to improve if they go through life with everybody catering to their inadequacies. The weakest link needs to be pushed to their limit more than anyone else so they can learn how to play properly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lumivyory

I don't care if I can tank it or not. What I care about is some simple decency.

---

Then do your job instead of acting like a bratty child by refusing to pick up mobs when literally all you have to do is press your AoE buttons, which you should be doing anyway. if the DPS brings the mobs right to you then there is NO excuse whatsoever for not picking them up. None.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jameseoakes

Why did the DPS have to be petty and grief? Two wrongs don't make a right but the blame doesn't lay solely on the tank

Edit: Like I said if the pace of a dungeon is so important to people maybe they should play tanks if they don't want to do that try communicating and maybe compromise a bit.

---

Did they grief though? Unless their actions actually cause a wipe and slow the dungeon down, then I don't see it as griefing. Letting a player KO just because they did something you don't agree with is being petty, griefing and slowing the dungeon down (especially if the healer threw a heal on them. So now they're on the aggro table).

I've had DPS run ahead of me as a tank and you know what goes through my head? "so long as you don't run off to Narnia, I don't care if you pull stuff. One AoE and they're back on me."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lumivyory

This is an MMO game. Not a single player. You have to communicate with other people sooner or later. And if someone is refusing to look at their chat letting them take some damage is a good way to make them read it.

I don't care if I can tank it or not. What I care about is some simple decency. It's not hard to ask "can you do bigger pulls?". Are your fingers gonna fall off if you ask the tank instead of just going ahead and pulling things or what?

I see you didn't read again what I said. Letting people facetank things for a few seconds =/= killing. I never once said anything about letting anyone die. So I fail to see where this is a waste of time.
You'd be kicking me after not healing me even tho I'm doing my job lol

---

You very much advocated for letting people die earlier, I just don't care enough to pick through your post history.

If all you're doing is letting them take a few autos that's fine, it's not going to impede the run and honestly if they're a smart physical dps they'll pop arms length and slow those enemies for you too. Yay bonus mitigation.

I shouldn't need to stop dpsing to ask 1/4 of the dungeon to do their job. The whole point is to get through it quickly. If the tank isn't pulling correctly I'll fix it for him, simple as that. If it's a leveling dungeon I'm happy to let them know in chat, especially if they've already proven to be paying attention to chat at all, but I'm not going to be asking permission or anything. That implies 1/4 of the dungeon team gets to decide that sort if thing and that's not true.

If it's a 70+ dungeon, especially 80, nope. Not gonna waste my time in chat. By that point everyone should know what they're doing. Let's get through the thing as quick as we can.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

You very much advocated for letting people die earlier, I just don't care enough to pick through your post history.

I shouldn't need to stop dpsing to ask 1/4 of the dungeon to do their job. The whole point is to get through it quickly. If the tank isn't pulling correctly I'll fix it for him, simple as that. If it's a leveling dungeon I'm happy to let them know in chat, especially if they've already proven to be paying attention to chat at all, but I'm not going to be asking permission or anything. That implies 1/4 of the dungeon team gets to decide that sort if thing and that's not true.

If it's a 70+ dungeon, especially 80, nope. Not gonna waste my time in chat. By that point everyone should know what they're doing. Let's get through the thing as quick as we can.

---

No, all I said was "you spank it - you tank it".

"The whole point" is different for everyone. I hate rushing through the dungeons and the whole point for me is to take it slow and enjoy my time. Just because you are in a rush doesn't mean everyone in a group is.
As long as the tank is pulling and tanking - they are pulling correctly. The amount of monsters that you want to be pulled is just your whim and not a universal standard.

Deciding where to go and what to pull is literally the tank's role in the party. This and taking the damage. You're not gonna ditch the tank and go explore some separate dungeon path, you're suppose to follow the tank. Why should people of other roles do the tank's job? Maybe I should stop tanking and start healing then cuz the healer is now a tank, pulling monsters and all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

Then do your job instead of acting like a bratty child by refusing to pick up mobs when literally all you have to do is press your AoE buttons, which you should be doing anyway. if the DPS brings the mobs right to you then there is NO excuse whatsoever for not picking them up. None.

---

I'll start doing my job when DPS will stop doing it for me. I don't stop tanking and start healing the team so why should a DPS stop DPSing and start pulling the mobs. It's not hard to respect each other's role in the group and have a bit of communication.



----
Honestly, I will never understand people that can just pull things.
How can you have such disrespect for other human beings in your party?

I once accidentally pulled Ozma as a DPS in a roulette before everyone got to their positions. I felt so guilty I apologized in alliance chat and it haunted me for days.
If I ever to pull something on purpose I'd probably feel like an a-hole and show myself out of the dungeon.

It's really baffling for me as to why people can't just be respectful and nice to each other, instead of being the king of the instance and trying to decide everything. And why people can't stop rushing for one minute and just enjoy their time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lumivyory

I once accidentally pulled Ozma as a DPS in a roulette before everyone got to their positions. I felt so guilty I apologized in alliance chat and it haunted me for days.

---

Okay, now I know you gotta be joking! You had me for awhile there though. Lol!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Okay, now I know you gotta be joking! You had me for awhile there though. Lol!

---

I actually am not. Nobody was angry that I pulled early but I still felt bad.

Which is why I really don't understand how people can pull ahead of the tank.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

Could not disagree more. Nobody is ever going to improve if they go through life with everybody catering to their inadequacies. The weakest link needs to be pushed to their limit more than anyone else so they can learn how to play properly.




Then do your job instead of acting like a bratty child by refusing to pick up mobs when literally all you have to do is press your AoE buttons, which you should be doing anyway. if the DPS brings the mobs right to you then there is NO excuse whatsoever for not picking them up. None.

---

You're pretty much contradicting yourself here. First you say the weak link needs to be pushed to learn to play properly then you're saying the tank needs to pick up the slack for the weak link that isn't doing their job properly.

DPS should not be pulling mobs unless the tank requests it. Their job is to deal damage to the creatures focused on the tank so the tank is acting as a shield to the rest of the party. The reason for not picking them up is so they learn not to do it. Once they die a few times, maybe they'll get the idea.

If the tank pulls stuff but then fail to generate enmity on those mobs to hold their attention, that becomes the tank's fault.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

The whole point is to get through it quickly.

---

No, the point is for the party to clear the dungeon. Considering we're given 90 minutes to complete most instances, getting through fast is not the point. If SE's point was for players to clear dungeons as quickly as possible, they'd cut the timer down to 30 minutes to add the time pressure element.

Toxicity is a part of everyone online game. This one has unfortunately been no different, and seems to fluctuate between better or worse. Either way: I'm sorry you had a bad experience. :(

I've always based my pulls on a combination between my gear and the healer's gear. Biggest majority of the time, that means grabbing literally everything unless a new expansion just came out. Sometimes it means holding back for someone new and/or leveling. If the healer says go big regardless? Well, then I go big, and see what happens, then adjust from there.

On the opposite end, I've always respected what another tank decides to pull, even if they're doing one pack at a time when I think they could possibly handle more. I don't know what kind of day that person has had. I don't know what their skill level is like; what difficulties they may have, if any. Maybe they haven't tanked this dungeon/raid/trial before. There's too many factors, and not a one that justifies being rude and impatient over.

Honestly, as long as people respect each other's time by trying their best, I really don't care about much of anything else. It's just a game at the end of the day.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lumivyory

Which is why I really don't understand how people can pull ahead of the tank.

---

The faster you pull the faster you clear the faster you can do other stuff then kill mindless trash and bosses, like explore the dungeon without fear of enemies, do other content, play another game or just start over again with killing mindless trash and bosses.
You want to reduce the mandatory, tediouse or/and boring stuff to get to the good stuff you actually want to do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jojoya

No, the point is for the party to clear the dungeon. Considering we're given 90 minutes to complete most instances, getting through fast is not the point. If SE's point was for players to clear dungeons as quickly as possible, they'd cut the timer down to 30 minutes to add the time pressure element.

---

SE doesn't decide these things, players do. Most people would bail so fast on a run that even looked like it might take 90 minutes that that sort of play would never be tolerated.

Heck, even the duty abandon penalty doesn't function any longer if dungeons are taking 90 minutes - it's only a 30 minute penalty. It would be infinitely more efficent to abandon such a group of players. Not only would you likely complete your next run of that instance/roulette faster even with the 30 minute penalty applied (because I cant think of a dungeon that even takes 30 minutes without huge mistakes) but you also have 30 minutes to craft or otherwise make use of your time.

So no, the 90 minute time limit means nothing at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lumivyory

It's really baffling for me as to why people can't just be respectful and nice to each other, instead of being the king of the instance and trying to decide everything. And why people can't stop rushing for one minute and just enjoy their time.

---

I really dont get how someone can advocate for politeness while also admitting to wanting to waste other people's time. Nothing more rude and entitled to thinking that your time is worth more than other people's.

The one thing we can all agree to respect is each other's time.

It's funny I never had anyone pulling ahead of me as a tank, because there's only a wall ahead, every single time. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Legion88

The faster you pull the faster you clear the faster you can do other stuff then kill mindless trash and bosses, like explore the dungeon without fear of enemies, do other content, play another game or just start over again with killing mindless trash and bosses.
You want to reduce the mandatory, tediouse or/and boring stuff to get to the good stuff you actually want to do.

---

Or you potentially wipe because the tank couldn't take this much damage and you make the run even longer.
And again, if people want to try to make the run faster - just ask the tank. No need to pull ahead of them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

I really dont get how someone can advocate for politeness while also admitting to wanting to waste other people's time. Nothing more rude and entitled to thinking that your time is worth more than other people's.

---

Oh yes because pulling a little less will make us waste a few minutes, the horror.
I consider my time to worth more? People that rush so much they are pulling ahead of the tank have their time worth so much that they want to risk a wipe and silently force the tank to pull more to save an extra minute of their precious time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

Could not disagree more. Nobody is ever going to improve if they go through life with everybody catering to their inadequacies. The weakest link needs to be pushed to their limit more than anyone else so they can learn how to play properly.

---

Certain "inadequacies" are irrelevant or not an inadequacy at all. Not wanting to mass pull a dungeon is one such case.

There seems to be some wierd arguments here.

For starters, if SE allows for something, it is not the same as it being ideal or what SE would like you to do. What I mean by this is SE allows you to spend 90 minutes in a dungeon before it fails you, but this doesnt mean SE's intentions is for you to meander through a dungeon and spend the full 90 minutes doing it. As an example to this point, you can participate in an event at Gold Saucer and immediately fail out and get a pittance of MGP for participation, but the goal isnt to fail out, its to complete it and maximize your reward in an efficient way. How that relates back to dungeon is they want you to progress through that dungeon in an efficient and expedient manner. This will vary from group to group.

Second, parties are not controlled by any one person. Theyre a group effort. The speed of which your party progresses is dependent on everyone involved. You have crappy DPS, youre not gonna be progging that fast. You have an ungeared tank, youre not progging fast. Bad healer, not progging fast. Its a give and take where you have to take into consideration your party as well as your own. This means that there is no 'concrete' method on dungeons. If you go into a dungeon and refuse to big pull as a tank when your healers and dps insist on it when broadly you have the level, abilities (like actual class abilities) and gear, you are in the wrong. You are refusing to play to meet with the party's request. And the excuse of "Well Im not used to tank," does not fly if you are in end game content or have reached max level. You are expected to have a basic understanding and mastery of your role, which means properly using mitigation in conjunction with healers and DPS. If you do not have the confidence in fulfilling the role, practice it or play a different role. Expecting others to cater to your inexperience and refusal to improve is not polite nor correct.

Conversely, people have to temper their expectations to be realistic. Telling a sprout to mass pull when theyre wearing vendor trash and it's their first class isnt reasonable either. Having the understanding that newer players may not be comfortable or geared for a role means you should expect that you might not move as fast as you would with someone whos broadly mastered the role. You need to understand where your party members stand at and work with them to complete content as efficiently as possible.

Lastly, you are not being polite by doing things on 'easy mode' intentionally with no consideration to others, nor is it polite to go super ham without a moment's thought. If you go into a dungeon and specifically single pull cause you want to be polite to your fellow party members, youre being patronizing by assuming that your fellow party members are not capable of more expedient methods. You want to know if you should big pull or not? Talk with your party, inspect their gear and what classes they have unlocked and leveled, do a test pull and adjust as necessary. Again, this is a party effort and you need to work with your party on this. Doing the 'small pull' thing because "Big pulls are rude/unnecessary and hurts my teammates" or the "What if theyre 'new/crappy/uncertain/etc" where you make an assumption about the inadequacy of your fellow party members isnt being polite. Talk with your party members and figure it out. If people want big pulls, pull big. If they want small, pull small. Figure it out.

Cut people slack if theyre new to a role or undergeared. And be stern with people who have 3 lvl 80 tanks with ilvl 490 gear who try to use the excuse "Im not comfortable with pulling big as a tank.". And this applies to all roles. takl wtih people, figure it out, and stop behaving like "This is the only way to do things." Your goal is to complete the dungeon in an expedient and timely manner. Sometimes that means small pulls. Sometimes that means wall to wall pulls. It depends on your party, so learn to adapt to your party's needs.

Quote:

---

I think a tank learning to pull large who failed shouldn't be told to slow down.
They should try again, so they can learn their cooldown rotations and how to better manage the mob pack all while avoiding AOEs and stuff.

Telling people to dial it back after one single wipe doesn't help teach anyone anything.

---

After enough tanks like this where they keep trying and keep dying, after a certain point I'd rather they just "learn" on their own time, or at least someone's time that isn't my own. I'm there to complete a dungeon, not to watch you repeatedly try to be a badass and fail -- and actually make the dungeon slower than it would have been if you had just swallowed your pride and pulled more within your means.

Also, the tank dying is not always solely the tank's fault. In fact, I'd say it's more often due to the healer getting too overzealous with attacking.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Melichoir

There seems to be some wierd arguments here.

snip.

---

You made big amount of text for nothing. Look at people in that thread - they create 100 and 1 reason, why big pull is MUHBADMUHFEEELINGS. They even don't listen to words. Example up ahead -

Quote:

---

Oh yes because pulling a little less will make us waste a few minutes, the horror.

---

yes, horror, people want save as many minutes as possible. And nobody wanna spent time only because 1 lazy tank

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lumivyory

Or you potentially wipe because the tank couldn't take this much damage and you make the run even longer.
And again, if people want to try to make the run faster - just ask the tank. No need to pull ahead of them.

---

You see, the problem is that a tank and a healer as a duo are mostly unkillable by every trash you can pull between walls, there are some exceptions in the regions below 50 but you can at least pull multiple groups there, you just have to be slightly competent in your job and you are not allowed to be lazy, the horror.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lumivyory

Or you potentially wipe because the tank couldn't take this much damage and you make the run even longer.

---

To be honest, I had a run of Dun Scaith last night with a high number of first-timers that was sort of a perfect example of the "if you rush, you can make it take longer" scenario.

As you might imagine with a whole pile of newcomers, Deathgaze Hollow was a bit of an adventure, with many people dying to Doom, flying off the edges, etc. When the inevitable wipe came, some of the new folks asked what the mechanics were. A few of us started to try to explain, but a particularly impatient Red Mage pulled the boss and, well, off we went. We managed to limp through that fight (just barely).

That set the tone for the rest of the run. We'd reach a boss, the first timers would ask "Hey, is there anything we should know about this?" and as several of us started to explain the mechanics, someone else would dash in and start the fight, so we'd be off and running without a chance to explain. (And sometimes with a bonus snarky comment of "Figure it out for yourself, or get out of the way." or "If you didn't learn this years ago, why bother now? I just want to go through this as quickly as possible.")

So new folks trying to help ran around changing the color of the circles on the ground, people died to the tethered/untethered atomos adds, people got hit by debuffs for not stopping movement, people got whapped by Scathach's scarf-wing-things, etc.

And because the first-timers didn't get their questions answered, each fight turned into a field of death and mishandled mechanics. We didn't wipe again, though that was due to a handful of experienced folks dragging the party across the finish line as best we could. In the end, the combat log in FFXIV's logs directory says the entire run took about an hour (well, 50 minutes and change) and involved 115 deaths (though some of those were the wipe to Deathgaze Hollow) and 84 rezzes, which was way more time than I had expected to spend on an Alliance roulette.

I'm all in favor of big pulls—I die a little inside whenever the final section of Anamnesis Anyder isn't pulled in one giant angry mob—but I do think there are times when rushing rather than communication makes everything take longer rather than go faster.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fynlar

Also, the tank dying is not always solely the tank's fault. In fact, I'd say it's more often due to the healer getting too overzealous with attacking.

---

Eh, I dunno that it's really easy to say any one cause is the most common.

I've certainly seen healers get tunnel vision on being green DPS (MOAR GLARE! BLOOD LILY!), yes. I've also seen tanks fail to use mitigations and have their health just evaporate faster than a healer can account for. I've seen tanks and healers be on the ball, but DPS just be so slow that the mobs stay up too long, and the tank and healer run out of options to use. These are especially prevalent in early dungeons.

Heck, I've seen a tank or healer lag out and the whole thing fall apart as a result, which seems pertinent since there seems to have been a significant spike in random 90k and pokeball issues since 5.3 landed. (I've tanked an add during Engels in Copied Factory as a healer twice for this exact reason while helping FC members get Manufactured Coins, when Comcast decided to banish a tank into the Void of No Connectivity and they yeeted out of existence abruptly.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Melichoir

For starters, if SE allows for something, it is not the same as it being ideal or what SE would like you to do. What I mean by this is SE allows you to spend 90 minutes in a dungeon before it fails you, but this doesnt mean SE's intentions is for you to meander through a dungeon and spend the full 90 minutes doing it.

---

Who is this being directed to? Is there anyone asking to take the full 90 minutes to clear a dungeon? There is a middle ground between rushing and intentionally being slow. Even doing single pulls while intentionally finding and killing all enemies (including those in out-of-the-way places in some ARR dungeons) should not take 90 minutes.

I recently (in the past two or three months) joined an in-progress Aurum Vale run while they were still in the first room, and I think they had a wipe as they were resurrecting at the beginning and they really took their time, as in actually stop and do nothing for several minutes like every few steps. I wasn't in a hurry at the time, so I didn't say anything and just watched YouTube on my second monitor, but normally, I would speak out and ask if there's anything wrong, especially since I didn't see any new player bonus and all 3 had level 80 jobs.

And that run, slow as it was, still didn't take anywhere near 90 minutes. And again, that's not the type of run that anyone should be advocating for, and I would be concerned if there is a push for that kind of run. But I didn't think that's what people are discussing here, though I haven't been reading all the posts.