Emet-Selch *Major Spoilers*

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Originally Posted by Edax

My point being I wouldn't equate G'raha's actions with Emet's on the morality scale.

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It helps that G'raha is trying to save as many as possible, he's playing the train cart game of which lever to pull based on total lives, and Emet is more like "your race sucks, mine is best" lol and playing the train cart game based on quality of lives (to his own opinion of course). That gives it quite a different vibe. I was mostly just arguing they've both pulled/are attempting to pull levers of value and both pulls come at a cost.

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Originally Posted by Edax

If I'm alive in both timelines, I've not really been "destroyed" because I don't consider the world having been destroyed just because it's been altered. G'raha is not only trying to save dead people, he could be trying to save the living people in this timeline as well. For all we know, the Eighth Calamity was an extinction level event, one that would last centuries.

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If you're alive in both yeah, but would everyone be alive in both? I don't think it's fair to say the exact same people will be alive in both- ideally, and to G'rah's point, more will be alive in his desired timeline but, if time changes significantly like that there will be different people due to different circumstances. Say due to the hardship of the calamity I go to a certain town and meet a certain woman who I then leads to the birth of boco coco the choco. Boco roco the choco may very well not exist if I've no calamity to worry about. Boco's existence is in jeopardy, maybe they'll come around some other way- in some sort of fate of life thing.. or maybe they'll never be because of said changes in time (lost).

The person who lived in comfort vs the one who left and lived hardship would be entirely different, leading to different lives and people who'd not recognize themselves (potentially). That side reason why I generally dislike time manipulation like this, since it's a theft of achievements and potential (looking onto yourselves and your potential outcomes you may be filled with pride that you came out strong and had the opportunity to face challenges, and then someone is like "yeah no redo, and I'm taking all those moments away- all that effort is yoink"). I get why some might view events that look like end of the world and be like "the cost is worth it, sorry boco roco" but if in one you had boco and one you didn't because of that change then boco is a lost entity and even if somehow you argue their essence came around again they're clearly going to be very different (and using essence is around so "still alive" concept would be very dangerous since you could do that with Emet's desires too then, as he just wants to make everything whole again).

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Originally Posted by Shougun

That side reason why I generally dislike time manipulation like this, since it's a theft of achievements and potential (looking onto yourselves and your potential outcomes you may be filled with pride that you came out strong and had the opportunity to face challenges, and then someone is like "yeah no redo, and I'm taking all those moments away- all that effort is yoink").

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Again, I don't see theft of achievement and potential on the same moral level as Emet's genocides and desire for racial purity. Given that AAR through Stormblood has been dealing with an endless war with the Empire, it is not so different to kill Imperials to save the world as it is to travel back in time. You are still robbing people of their future achievements and potential when you kill them in war. "It's a hell of a thing killing a man. You take away all hes got, and all hes ever gonna have." - Unforgiven

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Originally Posted by wereotter

These two arguments (that I agree with) are exactly why I can't have any sympathy for Emet.

I can't hear what he's saying after interacting with the NPCs of this world and the other player characters and not help but think of him as being not entirely unlike humans of the 19th century who viewed people of color as not actually being human, and using that mindset to justify the terrible acts they committed. And that's not an attitude I can condone or be sympathetic to. He's been a much bigger and more culturally relevant villian than any other we've seen so far, but not deserving of our sympathy. It's a good thing he and his kind are being wiped out.

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It really is the same basic thing as ultimately racism and genocide. The Ascians operate entirely differently from how the heroes do. While the people they support may do wonky things (Limsa Lominsa and how it interacted with the Beast Tribes comes to mind) the heroes continually try to make the world a better place, while the Ascians at best operate on such a massive scale of death that the price is too high, even if really it isn't trying to make things better. They've been behind every major Calamity. Every shard they've killed. The Void and the First have the issues they do because of them. And no doubt other shards have issues as well that we aren't aware of, to say nothing of what they've done to the Source. They can say "oh, but they aren't human", yet there isn't any real evidence for that.

Edit: As far as whether or not what G'raha is doing is the same, time travel doesn't seem to work in such a way as killing off the former timeline, evidenced by his continued presence, so that doesn't fly. And again, it was a doomed timeline that countless people wanted to try to avert. No one would volunteer to "kill yourself and merge with the Shard". The WoD only did so because the Ascians doomed their shard to begin with, coercion hardly implies voluntary.

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Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia

It really is the same basic thing as ultimately racism and genocide. The Ascians operate entirely differently from how the heroes do. While the people they support may do wonky things (Limsa Lominsa and how it interacted with the Beast Tribes comes to mind) the heroes continually try to make the world a better place, while the Ascians at best operate on such a massive scale of death that the price is too high, even if really it isn't trying to make things better. They've been behind every major Calamity. Every shard they've killed. The Void and the First have the issues they do because of them. And no doubt other shards have issues as well that we aren't aware of, to say nothing of what they've done to the Source. They can say "oh, but they aren't human", yet there isn't any real evidence for that.

Edit: As far as whether or not what G'raha is doing is the same, time travel doesn't seem to work in such a way as killing off the former timeline, evidenced by his continued presence, so that doesn't fly. And again, it was a doomed timeline that countless people wanted to try to avert. No one would volunteer to "kill yourself and merge with the Shard". The WoD only did so because the Ascians doomed their shard to begin with, coercion hardly implies voluntary.

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G'raha expected to die, he actually says so. So he was very well aware that what he was doing would destroy countless people who DIDN'T support him. Tales from the Shadows makes it clear that the majority didn't support Cid's plan, the quotes I used to counter arguments that everyone was for it actually say the majority weren't for it. So even though G'raha's non-death may mean a fork in the timeline, and the bad future continuing, he didn't expect that to happen. Even worse, instead of trying to mend the bad future and fight to drag it back from the brink, he essentially abandoned all those people to a world in which EMET SELCH ISN'T DEAD. Not terribly helpful of him really, is it?

No one would volunteer to kill themselves and merge with the Shard, huh? Did you forget that 50% of the Amaurotines did exactly that so that Zodiark could be summoned as the Will of the Planet and put things to rights by ending the Terminus event. Then 50%of the ones left sacrificed themselves so that Zodiark could bring back life to the saved planet. They weren't dragged kicking and screaming and thrown into a volcano, they chose it willingly.

To reiterate, you do keep using the 'oh but' argument when it comes to defending the people on your 'side'. Limsa attacking the spawning grounds of the Sahagin isn't attempted genocide, it's a 'wonky thing' (your words) but the Ascians are genocidal maniacs? If you're intention is to wipe out a race, that's genocide, it's not a wonky thing. I could equally argue that the Ascians don't want to kill everyone, they don't mind if people survive the rejoining. In fact they actually prefer the rejoining to cause as little damage as possible so that they can move to the next as soon as possible. They don't want to kill people, they just have a wonky thing that they're doing to restore the planet.

My personal theory is that the big tragedy, the big mistake - the fatal flaw if you like - happened when the Fourteenth refused to help to summon Zodiark. Perhaps the Fourteenth represented some life-affirming aspect in contrast to Emet Selch's role as a psychopomp. The Fourteenth ushered souls back into new life while Hades ushered them back into the life stream. Even more poignant is that these two were special friends (also in Tales of the Shadows although I do admit to conflating the Fourteenth and the special friend at this point). If the Fourteenth had taken part in the summoning, Zodiark and Hydaelyn wouldn't have been split (remember Ramuh saying that before men, Light and Dark were the same). Our role going forward will be to rectify that mistake made in the ancient past (made possibly by us if we are indeed the Fourteenth)

So yeah, some big ass battle twixt Zodiark and Hydaelyn, possibly involving Zenos, that ends up with the two primals being merged into an entity of balance.

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Originally Posted by Avidria

Yeah I'm still kind of hoping it'll get explained at some point. I've kind of been operating on the assumption that G'raha effectively did create an alternate reality, meaning that world that saw the 8th umbral calamity still exists and will probably keep on doing so until it's eventually destroyed anyway. Otherwise we've got all sorts of head-hurting questions to deal with. Compounded by time apparently behaving differently on different shards. It's enough to give a headache trying to puzzle it out.

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I think they did mention this could an alternative reality during the quest turn-in for Shadowbringer MSQ. Y'shtola asked the Exarch why he's still here and didn't disappear after they've changed history, the Exarch replied that he might step into a different timeline (not the exact words, but kind of what he meant).

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Originally Posted by Edax

Again, I don't see theft of achievement and potential on the same moral level as Emet's genocides and desire for racial purity. Given that AAR through Stormblood has been dealing with an endless war with the Empire, it is not so different to kill Imperials to save the world as it is to travel back in time. You are still robbing people of their future achievements and potential when you kill them in war. "It's a hell of a thing killing a man. You take away all hes got, and all hes ever gonna have." - Unforgiven

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I think that is fair to say, like arguing about the train problem in general (do you pull it? and of course if you choose to or not someone is going to argue that you're bad lol). Plus Emet's train problem comes with racial issues.

Also I know I just sort of jumped in so it might seem like I was asserting they're exactly the same as well, and I am fine with people trying to do that (and having to explain themselves), but rather I was just saying that Mr. T's hands are not lily white. In comparison, especially due to Emet's age, Emet is the ocean and Mr. T is the puddle. But that puddle action is like talking about a certain country in a big war and a bomb that was dropped to end it (at least what we're told in history class, I know people have differing views), that what G'raha did should be taken with grave silence and seriousness and that it wasn't an innocent free action. Not something to do again on a whim. Touch time with the utmost solemn sincerity and regret (and on a personal story telling level, preferably never touch time lol- because time is really messy and draws many issues/questions/moral conundrums that are often left unanswered and not in the interesting unanswered way just.. left there dangling).

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Originally Posted by Gojin

I find it weird how people glorifying a villain who wants to genocide people.

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That's because of the sob story. All story writers recycle old ideas, because it's easier than coming up with anything new. EVERYONE does it but it's like it's like a national requirement to write any story in Japan. Like you have a sob story = you are beyond reproach, you can't be held accountable and you should not be punished because then the "hero" becomes what they hate and all that BS. People talk about them being "relatable" but come on, that makes no sense and is compleately insane. It's pretty hilarious actually.

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Originally Posted by Tsaranoga

That's because of the sob story. All story writers recycle old ideas, because it's easier than coming up with anything new. EVERYONE does it but it's like it's like a national requirement to write any story in Japan.

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The sad truth is, its hard to write anything NEW that is Good. Even stretching your mind to come up with a different idea or approach a concept from a refreshing angle doesn't exactly mean it will be a Good idea, or resonate with a number of people into a successful idea. This is why very often people play it safe and just use familiar tropes, because something familiar will have a higher success rate then a new edgy idea that may not be that interesting to a larger group.
The best you can do is use a popular formula but change a few things around.

Plus; even though its seen as a lazy excuse (despite how true it is) there is no such thing as an original idea anymore, no matter what, every "new" idea has some level of influence from another idea. That or simply somebody around the world already thought of the idea.

Because Emet wasn't real? He is hades..

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Originally Posted by SinisterJoints

Because Emet wasn't real? He is hades..

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Well I feel like this needs to be elaborated upon.

Emet-Selch is a title, the one bearing the title had put up a persona that AFAIK was based on their fallen friend. A literal mask over the real self of Hades. However I think that there is a lot of overlap between the two sides

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Originally Posted by Tsaranoga

That's because of the sob story. All story writers recycle old ideas, because it's easier than coming up with anything new. EVERYONE does it but it's like it's like a national requirement to write any story in Japan. Like you have a sob story = you are beyond reproach, you can't be held accountable and you should not be punished because then the "hero" becomes what they hate and all that BS. People talk about them being "relatable" but come on, that makes no sense and is compleately insane. It's pretty hilarious actually.

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I'm not sure anybody ever stated that Emit shouldn't be held accountable; it was clear that his actions were unjust and you (the player) would have to put him down. He is relatable in the since that he leaves a choice of whether or not the player would do the same thing, had the roles been reversed. He is no less "recycled" that previous versions of Final Fantasy's roster, but just like some of the more famous villains, he certainly left a lasting impression.

Hell, I'm not sure he even hated the WoL at all; simply a powerful adversary that could ruin all that he had worked for. Think of Emit as a sort of foil character; someone who primarily shines the qualities of the protagonist (good or bad).

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

The sad truth is, its hard to write anything NEW that is Good. Even stretching your mind to come up with a different idea or approach a concept from a refreshing angle doesn't exactly mean it will be a Good idea, or resonate with a number of people into a successful idea. This is why very often people play it safe and just use familiar tropes, because something familiar will have a higher success rate then a new edgy idea that may not be that interesting to a larger group.
The best you can do is use a popular formula but change a few things around.

Plus; even though its seen as a lazy excuse (despite how true it is) there is no such thing as an original idea anymore, no matter what, every "new" idea has some level of influence from another idea. That or simply somebody around the world already thought of the idea.

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This can really be boiled down to the reader and what they consider good or bad; for what is deemed "unoriginal" to us, is completely new to someone else. Stories recycle for a reason and some of the more famous archetypes will simply never disappear. You always want to consider the audience you are writing for. Remember that Fifty Shades was a thing...

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Originally Posted by Elladie

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1. Countless people that are, ultimately, still a much lesser number than would have been lost by going with the plan. Every person who died from the chemical weapon, which if I recall right devastated at least half the population, means that it is still a net gain in life overall. As it also saved all the people of the First, and any other shards the Ascians would have claimed. Emet, again, does not have that going for him.

2. They... clearly did try and save the world. They tried every method possible. It isn't like they hit a bump in the road and thought "let's try and do the impossible". They tried every reasonable and likely many unreasonable steps to try to fix things before settling on their current plan.

3. Did 50% of them do that? We have Emet, and only him, as evidence for that. The guy who is not exactly an unbiased source. I'm not going to take him at his word when the guy has shown himself to be awful at being a sound judge on numerous other levels, that the guy could be lying or mistaken in how willing others were wouldn't surprise me, especially as he's Tempered.

4. The Limsans are not synonymous with the good guys, the Limsans did not try to wipe out all Sahagin, and the Ascians have literally wiped out many, many races by virtue of erasing shards. Every time they did that they committed genocide for many races. And on top of that even if they managed their goal of reuniting the shards they still intend on sacrificing whatever life is left to bring back the other Ascians. So yes, genocide.

5. Even if each rejoining was as smooth as possible every shard is incalculable life lost, and when all is said and done they'll sacrifice everyone remaining who isn't an Ascian.

6. Again, their end goal requires killing everyone. I can't even say that if there was a better plan they'd go for it because Emet and Elidibus think the other races should die for existing.

7. If the 14th was the hero then they likely are going to have a third plan if anything, not "well the Ascians were right all along". And even then, the original summoning of Zodiark isn't an issue. The issue is what they wanted to do with life on the planet.

8. Ramuh's accuracy as a person, especially given he is from ARR (many things have likely shifted a bit story wise since then internally), is not exactly absolute either.

9. I really have zero desire to see Zenos as the final boss of this arc, but sadly already accepting it. It'll easily be the worst part of the story if it happens.

Yes "shine" as another ghost needs to rise from their grave to save your weak ass.

Recycling old stuff is enough for people? Pfff... i guess the sob stories are supposed to make you feel something for the villain but that has never worked for me. It's relatable in that you can choose if you would exterminate an entire world full of creatures to bring back your people (who all are slaves to Zodiarc)? you're kidding, right? How many of you have had almost your entire race go extinct? Oh, wait...

At this point they could stop pretending and just do the good 'ol story like Yotsuyu, just give the villain boobs and it will be an instant success and everyone pretends to feel bad for her sob story, wiping their tears from their eyes with one hand (with their other hand in their pants). Heh.

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Originally Posted by Elladie

No one would volunteer to kill themselves and merge with the Shard, huh? Did you forget that 50% of the Amaurotines did exactly that so that Zodiark could be summoned as the Will of the Planet and put things to rights by ending the Terminus event. Then 50%of the ones left sacrificed themselves so that Zodiark could bring back life to the saved planet. They weren't dragged kicking and screaming and thrown into a volcano, they chose it willingly.

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But we don't know that they were truly willing. We just have Emet-Selch's twisted tempered word for it. They very well might have been unwilling, random victims of the Convocation's summoning. Certainly we get several small hints from talking to NPCs while working on the Amaurot portion of the 5.0 MSQ, not to mention the Venat holograms from 5.2, that not everyone supported the Convocation's plan.

And anyone who sacrificed themselves after Zodiark's summoning in the attempts to restore the planet could definitely be considered unwilling since they were all tempered at that point.

Uncle Emet is so stoked after reading a lot of the comments in this thread...

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...77/773/f40.jpg

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But he was also complex and pretty darned interesting

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He was laser focused on destroying the entirety of the universe and everyone in, on, around and near it as a sacrifice to a dark god his civilization had already performed several other blood rituals to.

He wasnt Loki, he was Mola Ram with a lot more poncing about and a lot less lava. He served his purpose. He tried to annihilate the universe, using us as a weapon to convince it to accept its fate. We said no. One side isnt walking away from that.

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Originally Posted by Barraind

He was laser focused on destroying the entirety of the universe and everyone in, on, around and near it as a sacrifice to a dark god his civilization had already performed several other blood rituals to.

He wasnt Loki, he was Mola Ram with a lot more poncing about and a lot less lava. He served his purpose. He tried to annihilate the universe, using us as a weapon to convince it to accept its fate. We said no. One side isnt walking away from that.

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Heh! Nice summing up and simplifying all this defending crazy peoples insanity (maybe he isn't crazy, just a slave to Zodiarc. Oh wait...) and crushing any of the excuses left for defend him and his ilk. "Complex" indeed. (No i don't think people will stop, of course).

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Originally Posted by Yencat

I'll admit I have a bit of a soft spot for Minfilia :) I know she gets a lot of flack from people and she was always sorta in the background, but she was was very important. Though they could've done a better job showing just what she did rather than having her call us and come over to the Waking Sands every 5 minutes.

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Agreed. Minfilia gets a lot of flak, and I think much of that can be attributed to the fact that the ARR story wasn't all that great, barring a few good sequences here and there. By the time the writers committed to improving the Scions as characters, they'd already long since decided to jettison Minfilia.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

But we don't know that they were truly willing. We just have Emet-Selch's twisted tempered word for it. They very well might have been unwilling, random victims of the Convocation's summoning. Certainly we get several small hints from talking to NPCs while working on the Amaurot portion of the 5.0 MSQ, not to mention the Venat holograms from 5.2, that not everyone supported the Convocation's plan.

And anyone who sacrificed themselves after Zodiark's summoning in the attempts to restore the planet could definitely be considered unwilling since they were all tempered at that point.

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Not that it's more reliable, but I thought it was Hythlodaeus' shade that told us half the Amaurotine population sacrificed itself? And it's pretty much confirmed not everyone supported the plan because otherwise they wouldn't have broken off to summon Hydaelyn to prevent more sacrifice. There's a lot more than small hints of that dissent. Though yeah I can see more hints of the dissent starting earlier than that turning point.

And yeah that second round of sacrifice I could see the willingness being arguable, though it's likely some at least would have been willing because sacrifice one stopped the apocalypse and sacrifice two was to restore life to the planet.

I'm also not quite following the thread on the point being quoted that no one would volunteer to rejoin... The example from earlier was the WoD, who actually did exactly that because as I understood it they were manipulated into believing they could save their people's aether by rejoining with the source or something to that effect (somebody please let me know if that's wrong, I don't even know what cutscene to look for lol). So effectively they, as they saw it, were facing a similar situation to the Amaurotines anyway - absolute annihilation, or sacrifice in an attempt to prevent that. I mean that's a choice, but it's sure a pretty darn rough one.

The second example of this again being Ardbert willingly choosing to merge with the WoL to stop Emet-Selch. But again... while I'd call it a more noble sacrifice, his options weren't exactly a hundred page catalog. It was help us or watch us fail and die. But at least he made that choice at least of his own free will. Even if it was a trail of manipulation and tragedy and two hundred years of lacking purpose that led him to that position in the first place. It seems it's implied Hydaelyn left him "alive" expressly to help us, but he still could've chosen to say hey peace buddy, it's looking like you're gonna fail so I'm just gonna hope the rejoining saves everyone after all! It would make a bit less sense imo, but there was probably a nonzero chance he'd fail to help us when we needed it by choice or otherwise.

Just chiming in to say Zenos is boring as hell.

Durr Hurr me like fight.
Pls give me fight!
Oh u no strong!
Weak!
Boring fight!
Where is strong fight!?
Oh u strong fight!
Good yes!
Now we fight!
That was fun!
Me need more fight!

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Originally Posted by Tsaranoga

At this point they could stop pretending and just do the good 'ol story like Yotsuyu, just give the villain boobs and it will be an instant success and everyone pretends to feel bad for her sob story, wiping their tears from their eyes with one hand (with their other hand in their pants). Heh.

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-rolls eyes at last part-
To be fair (from memory) she does have a Backstory that makes you at least a little sympathetic to her character.
But its instantly cast aside when she decides everyone has to suffer and die under subjugation (if thats the right word) even people who haven't wronged her. Heck even Bara Samurai Guy (to lazy to rememeber his name) defending her and caring for her doesn't sway her in the slightest when she gets her memories back.
"Maybe not all Domans are bad, maybe I should rethink things a little" Nope, just slaughter everyone cause I have an abusive past.

The other girl who lead The Skulls at least has a little Redemption and possibly something left to save, Yotsu has nothing.

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

Just chiming in to say Zenos is boring as hell.

Durr Hurr me like fight.
Pls give me fight!
Oh u no strong!
Weak!
Boring fight!
Where is strong fight!?
Oh u strong fight!
Good yes!
Now we fight!
That was fun!
Me need more fight!

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Just imagine him as Kenpachi Ziraki.
They are almost the same character, just ones evil, and the other comes off as evil.
Kenpachi was a pretty popular character despite the whole "I just want something to fight" personality

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Heck even Bara Samurai Guy (to lazy to rememeber his name) defending her and caring for her doesn't sway her in the slightest when she gets her memories back.

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The first thing Yotsuyu does once she's alone after having gotten her memory back is try to kill herself out of guilt. That's a pretty far cry from "doesn't sway her in the slightest". Hell, even after "snapping back" to her old ways, all she does aside from turning herself into a primal is kill three people, all of whom deserved it far more than any of her previous victims.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

The first thing Yotsuyu does once she's alone after having gotten her memory back is try to kill herself out of guilt. That's a pretty far cry from "doesn't sway her in the slightest". Hell, even after "snapping back" to her old ways, all she does aside from turning herself into a primal is kill three people, all of whom deserved it far more than any of her previous victims.

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I did say (from memory)
So its easy to assume I got at least something wrong and misremembered details

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

-rolls eyes at last part-
To be fair (from memory) she does have a Backstory that makes you at least a little sympathetic to her character.
But its instantly cast aside when she decides everyone has to suffer and die under subjugation (if thats the right word) even people who haven't wronged her. Heck even Bara Samurai Guy (to lazy to rememeber his name) defending her and caring for her doesn't sway her in the slightest when she gets her memories back.
"Maybe not all Domans are bad, maybe I should rethink things a little" Nope, just slaughter everyone cause I have an abusive past.

The other girl who lead The Skulls at least has a little Redemption and possibly something left to save, Yotsu has nothing.

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I don't really like Yotsuyu, or amnesia plots for that matter, but I'll play devil's advocate for a bit.

Fordola's story is one about a girl who has a chance to redeem herself for the horrible things she's done. Yotsuyu's story, while a bit hamfisted, is about a woman who is past the point of redemption. Even when Gosetsu shows her kindness, she can only see two ways forward: suicide or doing the same thing she was already doing.

Both characters are meant to be indications of how their society shaped them, but Yotsuyu decided that the best way to deal with injustice was to torment everyone else just because, and the story doesn't really praise her for that.

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Originally Posted by Berteaux_Braumegain

I don't really like Yotsuyu, or amnesia plots for that matter, but I'll play devil's advocate for a bit.

Fordola's story is one about a girl who has a chance to redeem herself for the horrible things she's done. Yotsuyu's story, while a bit hamfisted, is about a woman who is past the point of redemption. Even when Gosetsu shows her kindness, she can only see two ways forward: suicide or doing the same thing she was already doing.

Both characters are meant to be indications of how their society shaped them, but Yotsuyu decided that the best way to deal with injustice was to torment everyone else just because, and the story doesn't really praise her for that.

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I don't know if I agree with the 'just because' reasoning. It's made pretty clear that many many people have failed her her whole life. If not the parents or the brother then neighbours, teachers, family friends, her husband's friends/neighbours, the pleasure house owner/slaver, men 'visiting' her in the pleasure house. She's known nothing but abuse and comtempt her whole life and everyone always turned a blind eye, she says as much to Asahi when she's dying. She has legitimate beef with many Domans, if not the Doman culture of 'not my business' as a whole.

Now is she justified in her actions or deserving of redemption because of this? Absolutely not, I'm "happy" she died. Both for her and everyone else, but it's not hard to see how she might have actually gone insane at some point and isn't just being spiteful.

I actually would've preferred they didn't kill him, so he had to put the legwork in for his "redemption", but killing him has been treated like a redemption arc by a lot of players, unfortunately.

He was going to keep trying to kill untold billions of lives until he was stopped, so he had to die. He couldn't stop--he even tells us this, he's tempered, he will keep doing everything he can, as long as he can, to bring about the Joining. The only way to stop a fanatic on that level is...well, to kill him. There was basically no way to redeem him, and the writers obviously had no desire to.

People taking his final words of "remember us" to be his redemption are missing the point that he had absolutely no issue not remembering us, before he attempted t obliterate our very world.

Hell, he only cared about the WoD because of how powerful we'd be, and we could be a tool for him to use while he went off and genocided some other worlds. He'd also potentially get a companion out of it, so he wouldn't be so bored all the time.

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Originally Posted by Yencat

I don't know if I agree with the 'just because' reasoning. It's made pretty clear that many many people have failed her her whole life. If not the parents or the brother then neighbours, teachers, family friends, her husband's friends/neighbours, the pleasure house owner/slaver, men 'visiting' her in the pleasure house. She's known nothing but abuse and comtempt her whole life and everyone always turned a blind eye, she says as much to Asahi when she's dying. She has legitimate beef with many Domans, if not the Doman culture of 'not my business' as a whole.

Now is she justified in her actions or deserving of redemption because of this? Absolutely not, I'm "happy" she died. Both for her and everyone else, but it's not hard to see how she might have actually gone insane at some point and isn't just being spiteful.

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Hah! and how does any abuse excuse that she has people torture and humiliates EVERYONE and kill some of course, including children (too spineless to do it herself)? "They didn't do nothing" doesn't mean anything. I wonder if you could see more of her past where she visits villages, randomly picks a child, gives them a gun and tells them to kill their parents and if they don't, then everyone in the village will be exterminated. I guess she is just making sure the next generation will be as crazy as she is. Come full circle and all that. There really is no logic in trying to come up with reasons for some obviously unhinged cunt. So i ask, why? If she wanted a killing spree, she could have just started with herself. She wanted everyone to suffer for what happend to her, whether they had anything to do with it or not, just because they are from doma. Yeah, not spiteful at all...

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Originally Posted by Shofie

People taking his final words of "remember us" to be his redemption are missing the point that he had absolutely no issue not remembering us, before he attempted t obliterate our very world.

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I can't recall anyone saying "remember us" as being the words of redemption. Did anyone even say Emet was ever redeemed? I must have missed that.

I don't think Zenos is the best villain ever written. I do think that he is underrated and over hated though, and misunderstood.

He is meant to be a foil to the WoL. Where the WoL comes, seemingly from nothing, raising themselves up by their bootstraps to herohood and the path to being super powerful, Zenos comes from royalty and is bred and experimented into being super strong. Instead of using violence as a means to an end for altruistic endeavors and to save people, Zenos embraces violence for its own sake, for the sport of it, and to incite other people towards his philosophy.

When we are introduced to him in the story, he is very clearly depressed, as he hasn't found any sporting challenge befitting one of his strength. He's more than just bored. His world view and superiority complex make him this way. In a way, he is a reflection of the type of player who plays only to raid, only to beat the toughest stage, and looks down on everything else. This is probably the reason he falls flat for so many, and it's not like a lot of raiders even watch the story, heh.

It's not really his personality or worldview that are compelling, but the actions he takes within the storyscape. He funds and propels the Resonance project, imbuing him and others with the Echo. Then he proceeds to master it or show a stronger version of it than any other Echo user, taking control of Shinryu(a primal approximation of Midgardsormr in his prime, made from Nidhogg's eyes, Ilberd and his sacrificial lambs). When he still loses, he proceeds to take his own life. This hinges on his worldview, that he has found someone capable of greater violence and strength than he. This affirmation, this first defeat makes him truly happy, and he feels he will never attain this high again. Only, he did not know that he now needs to be killed with something akin to a Blade of Light in order to actually die.

Had he defeated us, he would have gone on to raze the land, searching for primals to fight or enslave. Likely winding up depressed again. Things did not go that way though, and his revival was as much a shock to him as it was to us. So, of course, he seeks us out, knowing we will not disappoint. That we will likely lead to satisfaction. That it is ultimately the pursuit of power that matters most.

Also, remember, the default dialogue option for the WoL when asked, "Why did you become an adventurer?" is, "To gain power." Zenos is a villain based around that. Not the best, but quite enjoyable in my opinion. And a good deal more enjoyable than Thordan, the religious leader who turns out bad in the end trope.

As for killing Emet-selch and why we had to kill him... to give his character gravity and for narrative consistency. We hit him with Auracite and a Blade of Light. That's the kind of stuff that hurts and kills immortals. Had he lived, we'd have to have a whole arc explaining why, and then finding a new way to kill him, so we could eventually kill him.

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Originally Posted by Tsaranoga

Hah! and how does any abuse excuse that she has people torture and humiliates EVERYONE and kill some of course, including children (too spineless to do it herself)? "They didn't do nothing" doesn't mean anything. I wonder if you could see more of her past where she visits villages, randomly picks a child, gives them a gun and tells them to kill their parents and if they don't, then everyone in the village will be exterminated. I guess she is just making sure the next generation will be as crazy as she is. Come full circle and all that. There really is no logic in trying to come up with reasons for some obviously unhinged cunt. So i ask, why? If she wanted a killing spree, she could have just started with herself. She wanted everyone to suffer for what happend to her, whether they had anything to do with it or not, just because they are from doma. Yeah, not spiteful at all...

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If you're gonna quote my post the least you could do is actually read it.

Nowhere does it say the fact she had a (very) rough life excuse anything she does, because of course it doesn't. The backstory of both her and Emet-Selch (and arguably Fordola) aren't meant to excuse their actions or to redeem them, they're there to show why they do what they do, and why they are the way they are. If all you see when you look at that is a sob story played for sympathy then that's more a failing on your part than the writing of the characters. You can feel sympathetic to both of them and still feel they deserved to die, you could even view it as a mercy killing as both were completely consumed and unwilling or unable to stop.

Which is probably also why Zenos fails to connect to a majority of people, not because he doesn't have a sob story but because his motivations are muddy at best and boring at worst.

[EDIT] You do bring up an interesting point that I agree with a few pages back about their beautiful/handsome appearance adding to people's positive reception of them. Vauthry never had a chance before he was even born and rarely seems to get any sympathy or attention, no doubt in part because he looks the way he does (in his human form at least).

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

I don't think Zenos is the best villain ever written. I do think that he is underrated and over hated though, and misunderstood.

He is meant to be a foil to the WoL. Where the WoL comes, seemingly from nothing, raising themselves up by their bootstraps to herohood and the path to being super powerful, Zenos comes from royalty and is bred and experimented into being super strong. Instead of using violence as a means to an end for altruistic endeavors and to save people, Zenos embraces violence for its own sake, for the sport of it, and to incite other people towards his philosophy.

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my personal problem with zenos isn't that he is what he is, its that he in fact remained completly static and has simply overstayed his welcome. Its not about being the guy that "hunts for sport" , its that after 1,5 expansions thats still ALL he really does.

If Zenos after his comeback had not just accepted his defeat, but actually tried to overcome us by adopting any kind of "new philosophy", be that actually training, some soul searching to sniff out his actual weak points, or even getting freaking allies i would have been fine with that, even some "i will throw myself into the wilderness naked" type of challenging himself i could have lived with, because while that would still mean "get stronger, kick more ass" at least it would show he is willing to actually challenge his own shortcomings, which given the position he's in simply is necessary to make any growth as a character possible. Yet in practice his very next plan was "merging with the magical dragon god failed, lets merge with/enslave the supreme god of all thats evil, than i will be the strongest guy ever."

its cool the guy has goals, but if his very literal goal is "being the strongest ever to kick the one guys ass that actually comes out to be a challenge" thats fun for a single patch, two if being generous, surely not for 2 expansions in a row with no clear end in sight.

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Originally Posted by Yencat

If you're gonna quote my post the least you could do is actually read it.

Nowhere does it say the fact she had a (very) rough life excuse anything she does, because of course it doesn't. The backstory of both her and Emet-Selch (and arguably Fordola) aren't meant to excuse their actions or to redeem them, they're there to show why they do what they do, and why they are the way they are. If all you see when you look at that is a sob story played for sympathy then that's more a failing on your part than the writing of the characters. You can feel sympathetic to both of them and still feel they deserved to die, you could even view it as a mercy killing as both were completely consumed and unwilling or unable to stop.

Which is probably also why Zenos fails to connect to a majority of people, not because he doesn't have a sob story but because his motivations are muddy at best and boring at worst.

[EDIT] You do bring up an interesting point that I agree with a few pages back about their beautiful/handsome appearance adding to people's positive reception of them. Vauthry never had a chance before he was even born and rarely seems to get any sympathy or attention, no doubt in part because he looks the way he does (in his human form at least).

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All i see is a sob story, because that is the only reason the villains are ever given for whatever it is they do. They would need to go deeper to give it any meaning. Like if they explained what happend between Yotsuyu and her parents or what happend to her parents before she was even born for them to treat her like that, then maybe... but no, they are just "evil" and that is why they deserve to die. The "evil" thing is only used when they need someone to die to progress the story and nothing more. It's after all easier when you make them pretty and give them a sob story.
And you are right, if Vauthry looked like what he looks like after he transforms throughout the story, everyone would be here coming up with excuses how "he just wanted a paradise" or something. Hah! Painfully predictable.
If we could actually choose even meaningles things, then you propably would have said something to try to make Yotsuyu feel better but i would have chosen to curb stomp her skull. That would have been nice, after all, she was dead anyway so it wouldn't have changed anything.

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Originally Posted by Tsaranoga

All i see is a sob story, because that is the only reason the villains are ever given for whatever it is they do. They would need to go deeper to give it any meaning. Like if they explained what happend between Yotsuyu and her parents or what happend to her parents before she was even born for them to treat her like that, then maybe... but no, they are just "evil" and that is why they deserve to die. The "evil" thing is only used when they need someone to die to progress the story and nothing more. It's after all easier when you make them pretty and give them a sob story.
And you are right, if Vauthry looked like what he looks like after he transforms throughout the story, everyone would be here coming up with excuses how "he just wanted a paradise" or something. Hah! Painfully predictable.
If we could actually choose even meaningles things, then you propably would have said something to try to make Yotsuyu feel better but i would have chosen to curb stomp her skull. That would have been nice, after all, she was dead anyway so it wouldn't have changed anything.

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I suppose they could have, but if they had explored the parents more it probably becomes a never ending chain of 'hurt people hurt'. Just to reiterate though I don't find her sympathetic and I wasn't team Precious Cinnamon Roll Tsuyu deserves redemption. She didn't deserve all the things that happened to her but when we met her she was already a lost cause.

Out of curiosity, are there any villains in FFXIV you 'liked'?

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Originally Posted by Tsaranoga

All i see is a sob story...

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I think I can see where your coming from. But I must put mu 2 gil in the matter.

The way I see it there are two types of villians

• The card-carrying type. Usually flat, usually revels in villainy and usually makes their mustache twirling evil apparent. A staple of stories with more clear cut morality. Executed poorly (bar that effect being intentional) they are less characters and more forces of evil
• And then there's the sympathetic type: Which can range to reluctant villain to anti villain to even antihero. They usually aren't evil for the sake of it like the above, and thus they tend to have Freudian excuse backstory (which despite the term may not actually excuse their actions). Sometimes they are the well-intentioned extremists who seeks to achieve good ends via bad means, other times they are desperate souls who think they have no choice but to do what they do to archive some end, and sometimes they are just villains who have some sort of standards that make them more noble incomaprison to the other villains.

For the former, we have only Zenos and some of the Ascians, for the latter we have Yotsuyu, The Ascians (including the member of whom this thread is named) and Gaius. But the thing is...

• None of them are redeemed per se IMO, Yotsusu died a tragic but deserving death but she became a monster of her own making so she had to go.
• Emet-selch has sympathetic motives but his ends were at odds with everyone else and I'd argue that he was bordering on "master race" ideology.
• Gaius is on our side but he still harbors the same kind of ideology that the Ascians had, and only dislikes being used by them. He is arguably still the same kind of fascist that would be anathema to anyone that id both good and isn't drowning in their flavor-aid (which is likely why are characters still disdain him). He's only in it to settle personal scores with the Ascians and try to save his orphans he unknowingly doomed. The Weapon storyline might change that but for now I put him in the same running as the Diamonds of Steven Universe among others, not quite redeemed yet (and this is at best).

Anyway my point is that this is a grey game and therefore it has a lot more gray villains, but I do kinda agree that we need a bit more evil-for-its-own-sake villains

As an addendum I must point out that Valthrey it also in the grey category and similar to Yotsusu in some aspects. His upbringing left him with a superiority complex and a severe lack of empathy, meaning he is as pitiable as Yotsusu and as irredeemable, both are borderline.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

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I completely agree with you. He as a character is boring, but his actions are interesting.

My issue with Zenos as a villian is he is way way too subdued for the type of villian he is, and because he is so subdued I don't find him entertaining to watch, the man is a walking mountain of strength yet the biggest ham and cheese sandwich he ever bit was just before Shinyru every other scene has him move slowly, have him sitting, trying to be manipulative, he is a force of nature character stop ham stringing him and let him act like a force of goddamn nature. Zenos is acting like Duke when he is really Zagi hate bone and all

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

And a good deal more enjoyable than Thordan, the religious leader who turns out bad in the end trope.

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Thordan would've been a lot better for me if he had more than four cutscenes he was in. And if he was just opposed to us due to differing beliefs rather than "Oh, by the way, I also want to take over Eorzea as God."

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Originally Posted by Yencat

Out of curiosity, are there any villains in FFXIV you 'liked'?

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This may not suprise anyone but Gaius van Baelsar. I just want some, if they try to be "sympathetic" they should have a logical reason to being "evil" but they should be "evil" only to you, not to themselves.