Thank you Yoshi for your stance on DPS meters

So the statement "we died because we didn't get healed" is ok but saying "we enraged because you didn't do enough dps" is frowned upon? Why do people think dps deserve special privileges. We know right away when a tank is losing aggro or not using cooldowns. We know right away when a healer is doing a poor job and not keeping the group alive. We know instantly when these two roles are lacking in their job but we DON'T and CAN'T know when a dps is lacking in theirs? All because people want to be carried through content they have no business
being in in the first place without being told to pull their weight .Ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by SweetestLily

So the statement "we died because we didn't get healed" is ok but saying "we enraged because you didn't do enough dps" is frowned upon? Why do people think dps deserve special privileges. We know right away when a tank is losing aggro or not using cooldowns. We know right away when a healer is doing a poor job and not keeping the group alive. We know instantly when these two roles are lacking in their job but we DON'T and CAN'T know when a dps is lacking in theirs? All because people want to be carried through content they have no business
being in in the first place without being told to pull their weight .Ridiculous.

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No. People have said in parties before "we failed the DPS check" it's never been a problem.

Specifically berating a player with a third party tool IS however frowned upon, and punishable.

Telling a player that he/she may want to brush up on his/her rotation and that Stone Sea Sky/Lawns may be a good starting point, and telling them you only want to help them improve is not harassment. It never has been.

The key things are harassment and third party tools.

If you want players to do their best, simply DO YOUR best to relay that information in a non harassing way.

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Originally Posted by SweetestLily

So the statement "we died because we didn't get healed" is ok but saying "we enraged because you didn't do enough dps" is frowned upon? Why do people think dps deserve special privileges. We know right away when a tank is losing aggro or not using cooldowns. We know right away when a healer is doing a poor job and not keeping the group alive. We know instantly when these two roles are lacking in their job but we DON'T and CAN'T know when a dps is lacking in theirs? All because people want to be carried through content they have no business
being in in the first place without being told to pull their weight .Ridiculous.

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Once you know a fight, you will know as the fight progresses if the DPS are putting out enough damage. You'll be able to tell if the boss is at a low enough percentage of health as phases progress. At that point, yes, it's fair to point out that the damage output isn't high enough. I've been in groups where that has happened... and I've been the one to say that's the problem (this as a DPS without having any parsing tool)

It's also fair to say that things are going wrong when people are dying not to healers doing their job. We saw that feedback happen a lot in fight against TG Cid. It's also fair to say when tanks are demanding too much of healers when they don't use cool downs. Every person not doing their job well effects other players. It's fair to give that feedback if done tactfully and in such a way offers people the opportunity to get better.

The problem is when people go down the path of "hey idiot, learn your job!"

I've seen that too. I've also seen people of all roles rage quit instances no matter how polite the person giving feedback is trying to be. You just gotta do your best, and give feedback if needed in a way that you would want to receive it.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

Once you know a fight, you will know as the fight progresses if the DPS are putting out enough damage. You'll be able to tell if the boss is at a low enough percentage of health as phases progress. At that point, yes, it's fair to point out that the damage output isn't high enough. I've been in groups where that has happened... and I've been the one to say that's the problem (this as a DPS without having any parsing tool)

It's also fair to say that things are going wrong when people are dying not to healers doing their job. We saw that feedback happen a lot in fight against TG Cid. It's also fair to say when tanks are demanding too much of healers when they don't use cool downs. Every person not doing their job well effects other players. It's fair to give that feedback if done tactfully and in such a way offers people the opportunity to get better.

The problem is when people go down the path of "hey idiot, learn your job!"

I've seen that too. I've also seen people of all roles rage quit instances no matter how polite the person giving feedback is trying to be. You just gotta do your best, and give feedback if needed in a way that you would want to receive it.

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I'm not talking about insulting people. I'm talking about asking people to do the job they chose when they joined the party. People badly need to understand that these two things are not the same. If someone ask you to do the job you're not doing, I believe they have that right. And if something isn't dying fast enough yeah it's easy to tell that there's a dps problem. But unless you're watching them do their rotation or see that they aren't properly geared you can't possibly know who is the one causing this problem.
I said it before and I'll always say this. People need to get out of the habit of blaming inanimate tools for crappy human behavior. If someone wants to be an a**hole they don't need a parser to do it.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Telling a player that he/she may want to brush up on his/her rotation and that Stone Sea Sky/Lawns may be a good starting point, and telling them you only want to help them improve is not harassment. It never has been.

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How do you know which player needs to brush up on their rotation without the 3rd party tools? Short of someone obviously using the same attack over and over, of course. Buff/debuffs in the target and party frames only tell part of the story and you still may not know there's a problem with any of those unless it's something that should have 100% uptime outside of transitions.

No third party tools mean I have no way to analyze my performance and find ways to improve since SE won't give me those tools in the first place.

The third party tools are not the problem in most cases. The problem is the players who misuse them to harass others. Taking away tools does not stop the harassment. Those who like to harass will continue to do so.

In the meantime you have removed the tool that a player could have been using to analyze and improve their performance, thus reducing their risk of becoming a target for harassment in the first place.

Wouldn't it be better to remove the harasser and leave the useful tool in place?

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Originally Posted by Gula

It's almost as though the hostility brought to Yoshi-P and staff from these very forums are proof enough that the NA community does not deserve in game meters. Let alone encouragement to use them for group play.

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I have to agree. Personally I don't use a parser nor do I hate them. If someone wants to use it, go for it. The issue forms when parsers are used to harass other players with threats to kick them or the like.

We need to just come to terms that SE, at this time, will not put parsers into the game. Simple as that.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

How do you know which player needs to brush up on their rotation without the 3rd party tools? Short of someone obviously using the same attack over and over, of course. Buff/debuffs in the target and party frames only tell part of the story and you still may not know there's a problem with any of those unless it's something that should have 100% uptime outside of transitions.

No third party tools mean I have no way to analyze my performance and find ways to improve since SE won't give me those tools in the first place.

The third party tools are not the problem in most cases. The problem is the players who misuse them to harass others. Taking away tools does not stop the harassment. Those who like to harass will continue to do so.

In the meantime you have removed the tool that a player could have been using to analyze and improve their performance, thus reducing their risk of becoming a target for harassment in the first place.

Wouldn't it be better to remove the harasser and leave the useful tool in place?

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Thanks for making arguments against points I never made in addressing what the issue was.

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Originally Posted by SweetestLily

I'm not talking about insulting people. I'm talking about asking people to do the job they chose when they joined the party.

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That's NOT the point you made, or made clearly.

See below what people are actually taking you to task about.

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Originally Posted by SweetestLily

So the statement "we died because we didn't get healed" is ok but saying "we enraged because you didn't do enough dps" is frowned upon?

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And even worse ...

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Why do people think dps deserve special privileges.

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I fail to see where this was ACTUALLY made an argument, and DPS specifically - since the use of the tool also looks at Healer and Tank DPS as well (especially the third party tool - it's reading the battle log). This has long been a contention with groups.

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We know right away when a tank is losing aggro or not using cooldowns. We know right away when a healer is doing a poor job and not keeping the group alive. We know instantly when these two roles are lacking in their job but we DON'T and CAN'T know when a dps is lacking in theirs? All because people want to be carried through content they have no business
being in in the first place without being told to pull their weight .Ridiculous.

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If you're going to strawman then tell people they misinterpreted it. That's not fair. There are still indicators but this actually does require RAID awareness. The tool only makes it EASIER to see when someone is LOWER damage (not per say ENOUGH)

It was refuted that YOU can say something, just not harass people about it, with or without a parser present. The only thing that you CANNOT do is disclose the use of said (third party) tool when YOU do it.

Having one in game during an instance, can be useful, but where does the meter stop since people don't consider other factors, like Job output, Gear, and the Damage a Tank and Healer does in that instance. Do we JUST measure the DPS when the battle log records ALL damage?

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

I fail to see where this was ACTUALLY made an argument, and DPS specifically - since the use of the tool also looks at Healer and Tank DPS as well. This has long been a contention with groups.

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I think the initial point they were making is that if one player is holding you back because they have super low dps, you can only tell through parsing, and you're not allowed to call them out for it, no matter how polite you are about it. Instead you kind of have to leave instance, kick the player and replace them which isn't any better imo but the status quo SE would rather have.

Asking a tank to focus on a swap after they screw up is ok. Calling a healer out for dpsing and not healing is ok. Calling a dps out for low dps isn't.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

I think the initial point they were making is that if one player is holding you back because they have super low dps, you can only tell through parsing, and you're not allowed to call them out for it, no matter how polite you are about it. Instead you kind of have to leave instance, kick the player and replace them which isn't any better imo but the status quo SE would rather have.

Asking a tank to focus on a swap after they screw up is ok. Calling a healer out for dpsing and not healing is ok. Calling a dps out for low dps isn't.

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Because 90% of the time the above is a problem is because people call them out using a parser. There have been many ways people have stated a singular player isn't doing their job optimally without harassing and being constructive.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Because 90% of the time the above is a problem is because people call them out using a parser. There have been many ways people have stated a singular player isn't doing their job optimally without harassing and being constructive.

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It doesn't matter how polite and constructive you are. The second you isolate a single person out for their dps you're walking a fine line and risk being reported. Your stance would come from parsing anyways because there aren't really any other ways of knowing if a single person's DPS is low, the in game threat meter is too small to tell most of the time.
The flip side to this is you don't parse and you wipe consistently to enrage or dps checks and don't know why. This clearly shows the game is lacking some form of mechanic/tool.

Without parsing you would also be hard pressed to put a group together of similarly skilled players. Which is a must for static integrity. Again the game is lacking something here to stand by itself. It would all be fine and dandy if the content were all super easy, but since they push content that really entices optimization there's a real dichotomy between the high tier content they put out and their "no" parsing ToS (which is diff from their "don't mention it" stance).

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Originally Posted by hasana

I had a poor sprout rogue in wow who got vote kicked in RFC for low dps because poor guy couldn't do anything with the 4 of us full heirloom melting mobs..

WoW is from NA/FFXIV from JP your laws =/= their laws.

And players who care about parsers will most likely use it so they won't stick with the eula and if they do it will be mostly because it's kinda annoying to setup.
If we put the SE stance on Third Party Tools away for a moment it's like saying it's unfair for people who don't use Recount/Skada/Details.

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If they weren't doing anything, neither heirlooms nor a lack of parsers would have saved them. Heirlooms are strictly inferior to at-level gear. And a rogue who isn't allowed to initiate isn't going to get in an attack on anything if running with, say, 3 Marksmen, regardless of how poorly their geared, just due to how that spec bursts. (Same for any other bursty ranged in an easy dungeon; with so little enemy HP, it'll quickly feel useless to take a melee into focused fire; you'd need to pull large and for the melee to have good AoE for them to feel like they have a place.) That's not a parser problem, nor a community problem -- it's a consequence of tuning.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Because 90% of the time the above is a problem is because people call them out using a parser. There have been many ways people have stated a singular player isn't doing their job optimally without harassing and being constructive.

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No, it's a problem when you put a gag order on criticism, arming each player who'd rather threaten others than improve with... a ban gun. Most of the time that gun will merely fire blanks, but if you're just going about your day, how often will that threat have zero effect on your ability to kick one petulant underperformer for the benefit of everyone else? Suddenly every group decision has to be weighed against who's going to take the flak for a good call, all atop no longer being perfectly certain that you are in fact making the right call.

That is a toxic environment.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

It doesn't matter how polite and constructive you are. The second you isolate a single person out for their dps you're walking a fine line and risk being reported. Your stance would come from parsing anyways because there aren't really any other ways of knowing if a single person's DPS is low, the in game threat meter is too small to tell most of the time.
The flip side to this is you don't parse and you wipe consistently to enrage or dps checks and don't know why. This clearly shows the game is lacking some form of mechanic/tool.

Without parsing you would also be hard pressed to put a group together of similarly skilled players. Which is a must for static integrity. Again the game is lacking something here to stand by itself. It would all be fine and dandy if the content were all super easy, but since they push content that really entices optimization there's a real dichotomy between the high tier content they put out and their "no" parsing ToS (which is diff from their "don't mention it" stance).

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First off, what is parsing? What is ACT?

They are tools. Right? The tool does what? Read your battle log. It tallies up the numbers for you. The settings also allow for things like an "end encounter rate" whether or not you want Pets in the damage equation/healing equation etc...

So the argument is that "there's no way of telling" Oh there always was. It's just cumbersome. So I understand why said tool exists and not arguing about using said tool.


What I am talking about is the harassment issue involving said tool. We also have the fact it's against the terms of service to use said tool. So that's why even though we know people use them for ease of access on the PC platform particularly - the general idea holds present.

A person who raids should know what the entire group should be putting out. That also includes tanks and healers.

My statement asked about this part of the in game parser. Where do you stop on the parsing - like ONLY DPS? If you have a low DPS, is that person really the problem? If we're talking about a person that does half their DPS, you can mention the person has issues with their rotation and move on. The other part may be culture as Japan doesn't bother (unless you are exceptionally bad and they want to send 2ch after you) bickering in parties, they disband and move one AND THAT'S WITH ALL JOBS INVOLVED.

But going on. It may not be the lowest performing DPS is a tank in a particular instance isn't doing much damage at all and doing 1/3 of the damage output that's normally in range for that tank. If we have a parser FOR ONLY DPS in game, and it's a TANK that's part of the issue...considering they generally have the most uptime. People only getting part of that equation are going to start harassing the DPS.

A lot of the people arguing back about not having the parser, say it in the worst, least engaging way as possible for the other side to see how one can be constructive and positive about it. That's the problem. I'm actually offering ideas for players to engage with others in a positive way that's far less likely to cause problems, but people still want to act overly negative about it. So that's why I do feel we've dug our own graves in EVER having a meaningful conversation of having an in game parser. It also didn't help to have the Koike incident - https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...arser/ddxxeua/ to cement this issue.

So sadly now I can see why the other camp wants to dig its foot in and say "the community is toxic and shouldn't have parsers" if the person can't even TRY their best on talking with players but then demand others TRY their best

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

No. People have said in parties before "we failed the DPS check" it's never been a problem.

Specifically berating a player with a third party tool IS however frowned upon, and punishable.

Telling a player that he/she may want to brush up on his/her rotation and that Stone Sea Sky/Lawns may be a good starting point, and telling them you only want to help them improve is not harassment. It never has been.

The key things are harassment and third party tools.

If you want players to do their best, simply DO YOUR best to relay that information in a non harassing way.

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Except what you described is treated like harassment. You have to walk on eggshells to tell a Black Mage their damage is low because the primary concern the devs seem to have is making sure that Black Mage's feelings aren't hurt. I fail to see why saying, "<insert name> your damage is really low. What's going on?" is a problem. Will some people lose their mind? Absolutely. Warn, suspend or ban them. This isn't a difficult concept. The reason they aren't doing it is to keep up the illusion everything is sunshine and rainbows.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

How do you know which player needs to brush up on their rotation without the 3rd party tools? Short of someone obviously using the same attack over and over, of course. Buff/debuffs in the target and party frames only tell part of the story and you still may not know there's a problem with any of those unless it's something that should have 100% uptime outside of transitions.

No third party tools mean I have no way to analyze my performance and find ways to improve since SE won't give me those tools in the first place.

The third party tools are not the problem in most cases. The problem is the players who misuse them to harass others. Taking away tools does not stop the harassment. Those who like to harass will continue to do so.

In the meantime you have removed the tool that a player could have been using to analyze and improve their performance, thus reducing their risk of becoming a target for harassment in the first place.

Wouldn't it be better to remove the harasser and leave the useful tool in place?

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You talk as if third parties tools are needed to clear content, and improve your gameplay. Neither if which is true. The PS4 allows me to record my encounter, and I do often. Each time I have viewed one of my videos, I always see ways I can improve, and also the mistakes I made. I have used that visual data to greatly improve my performance the next time I go into the instance. I've also used them for unsynced savage runs to see which and why mechanics are being failed and forcing a reset.

The truth I find is that third party tools help with optimization, which is needed for efficiency; not a clear. And while I can understand that as content becomes more repetitive, efficiency becomes more important; however, players using parsers for such purposes will have a distinct advantage over console players or those who choose not to use these tools. I'm not implying that the tools themselves boost DPS, or that all third party tool users are cheaters. What I am saying though is that it is entirely erroneous to think that players need these tools to improve.

You are right that the problem is not the tool, but the harasser. However, the tool isn't a sentient, paying subscriber; who may, or may not be at fault depending on the validity of those who report them. So let's not be all in favor for optimization and efficiency, and then chastise SE when they do the exact same thing in an attempt to resolve the issue.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Except what you described is treated like harassment. You have to walk on eggshells to tell a Black Mage their damage is low because the primary concern the devs seem to have is making sure that Black Mage's feelings aren't hurt. I fail to see why saying, "<insert name> your damage is really low. What's going on?" is a problem. Will some people lose their mind? Absolutely. Warn, suspend or ban them. This isn't a difficult concept. The reason they aren't doing it is to keep up the illusion everything is sunshine and rainbows.

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By the way, they do the same if you call out a healer or tank for the very circumstances the former poster mentioned too. So none of those cases were never okay and DPS got a free pass especially said the wrong way. But does someone have a GM warning from saying it in a polite way, or are we just all assuming that what you're saying IS exactly that case?

Having pugged Savage often I've seen so many groups just disband because of 1 or 2 people having such atrocious DPS that you even wonder how they got this far into the tier. Declaring they will never add parsers felt disheartening to hear because it goes to show that the developers are forever happy to keep parsers in a grey zone instead of add official ones where they can give proper rules regarding. Just don't harass or risk being suspended and banned, it's not difficult to enforce that rule and gives players a clear guideline :S.

No one cares about DPS or having the best optimized players in casual content. Unless it's just god awful that's causing stress to the majority of players in the instance (which is rare). But savage and ultimate content they are necessary not just for self improvement but to see where things went wrong. If tanks don't use a CD and get wrecked guess what, they get called up on it and asked to use a cooldown. Or a healer gets asked to heal more. But for some reason, saying: "*username* can you dps some more please, we aren't hitting the dps check" can risk you getting banned. It's ridiculous.

Allow parsers, ban the people who are toxic. Give tools to enable the community to strive for something more than mediocrity (seriously, why has all casual content turned into hand holding? Amdapor keep, pharos sirius coil, hard modes and extremes used to actually give people a reason to step up their game. Everything outside of savage and ultimate is faceroll). It only hurts the endgame playerbase and causes frustration in those that don't want to spend an hour wiping to content for hours in a farm party because someone isn't pulling their weight. But I digress, some people are just happier to live blissfully ignorant that they have wiped the party to enrage and point the finger at someone else than be told "can you do more dps" incase it hurts their feelings...

Just a question for those who say the tool leads to toxic behavior

Are you being seriouse really are you?
Because if you are.....
Do you also blame games for violence?
You can't blame the tool or entertainment for human behavior. The tools don't make a person behave diffrently than they normally would. The cold truth of it those people who are being called "toxic" would always behave that way rather they use a tool or not just like anyone who is violent is violent because thats who they are not because a "tool" or entertainment made them do it. People do what they want to do stop blaming innocent tools,objects,drinks etc for human natural behavior

I think there should be a DPS meter, but only in content where it matters
Extreme, savage, ultimate, etc, no dungeons/normal raids or the such, since they are un-necessary with no enrage mechanics
let people know that they need to improve to clear that content

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

snip

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I'm not arguing for an ingame parser, nor do I think talking about someone's DPS should be done in any manner other than politely and constructively. I'm just saying SE's ToS, stance, and enforcement (or in the case of parsers, lack of) is a bit of a mess and in some cases creates double standards.

At the end of the day, the raiding community will still parse, SE won't do anything about it unless it's used to harass people (as they should) and we'll keep seeing threads either complaining about parsing or asking for official parsers. The great cycle of mmo life.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

By the way, they do the same if you call out a healer or tank for the very circumstances the former poster mentioned too. So none of those cases were never okay and DPS got a free pass especially said the wrong way. But does someone have a GM warning from saying it in a polite way, or are we just all assuming that what you're saying IS exactly that case?

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It's the fact it's obvious you can tell they were dpsing low thanks to third party that gets people banned. No matter how polite they are and that's part of the issue. You're being polite and that's fine, but how tdo you know their dps was low? Oh you're parsing > banned because they didn't like being called out and reported you.

14 design team: We want to make encounters with enrage timers and complex mechanics.

14 design team: We want to make sure people dont have the tools to figure out the mechanics of things without using 3rd party tools.

14 design team: Please dont use 3rd party tools.


Yoshi even KNOWS people that didnt have parsers would manually grep or parse logs after every fight to see what mechanics were doing, what incoming and outgoing dps was, and how long effects lasted. He fully admitted it in his next breath. He knows for a fact its been done since the late 90's in MMO's. Their stance on it is, has been, and will be asinine, and is contradicted by their stance of what encounters they want to add to the game.

Why not just get better at the game and not hold back your party because you rather lala erp?

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

By the way, they do the same if you call out a healer or tank for the very circumstances the former poster mentioned too. So none of those cases were never okay and DPS got a free pass especially said the wrong way. But does someone have a GM warning from saying it in a polite way, or are we just all assuming that what you're saying IS exactly that case?

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You can clearly see when a tank or healer makes a mistake on their primary role because it directly results in either their death or someone else's. This isn't true about DPS since the only measure for their success is how much damage they do, which we aren't allowed to see publicly. As for GMs, we cannot post numbers, thus we have no way of providing evidence someone is underperforming. I can tell a Samurai "Your damage is really low, dude." And he can reply, "Are you parsing?! I'mma report you." I now have to dance around and say something like "Nope. I've just been watching your rotation" to hopefully get around potentially being dropped in GM gaol.

Ironically, that scenario above is pretty toxic, and far more common than raiders harassing casual players. But the devs opt to ignore that based on the unproven notion public damage meters would instantly make the whole game toxic. Their end goal is to make sure no one feels bad for being a weak link. It's quite sad we a competitive ranking system for PvP, Crafting and Fishing but nothing combat related despite that being the main attraction of this game.

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Originally Posted by Barraind

14 design team: We want to make encounters with enrage timers and complex mechanics.

14 design team: We want to make sure people dont have the tools to figure out the mechanics of things without using 3rd party tools.

14 design team: Please dont use 3rd party tools.


Yoshi even KNOWS people that didnt have parsers would manually grep or parse logs after every fight to see what mechanics were doing, what incoming and outgoing dps was, and how long effects lasted. He fully admitted it in his next breath. He knows for a fact its been done since the late 90's in MMO's. Their stance on it is, has been, and will be asinine, and is contradicted by their stance of what encounters they want to add to the game.

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The real irony is Yoshida know were they ever to break ACT somehow, the raid scene dies. That program and FFlogs basically keeps the raid scene alive because it actively give people a goal to strive for even if you're simply aiming for self improvement. There's a reason every other major MMO has a built in parser. FFXIV just likes to pretend otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

You talk as if third parties tools are needed to clear content, and improve your gameplay. Neither if which is true. The PS4 allows me to record my encounter, and I do often. Each time I have viewed one of my videos, I always see ways I can improve, and also the mistakes I made. I have used that visual data to greatly improve my performance the next time I go into the instance. I've also used them for unsynced savage runs to see which and why mechanics are being failed and forcing a reset.

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I don't disagree with the core message; you don't need third party tools to get better. You don't need gym equipment to work out either. They are very helpful, though, and can expedite the process. I'd just like to take this moment to point out that the PS4 is a third party to SE. Their record feature is literally a third party tool. It falls under the same "third party tools" that Yoshi P pointed out when mentioning Discord, how it doesn't interfere with the game and thus is okay, but it remains a third party tool. StreamLabs OBS, likewise, was way more useful to my prog than a parser was. Humorously enough, like a parser, it can be used to harass others as seen in the case of Arthars v. That One Black Mage, 2019.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

First off, what is parsing? What is ACT?

They are tools. Right? The tool does what? Read your battle log. It tallies up the numbers for you. The settings also allow for things like an "end encounter rate" whether or not you want Pets in the damage equation/healing equation etc...

So the argument is that "there's no way of telling" Oh there always was. It's just cumbersome. So I understand why said tool exists and not arguing about using said tool.

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While I'll agree that there are ways to tell when someone is underperforming, you're purposely leaving out two important factors:

1. It doesn't matter if you find out who's wasting everyone's time without a parser if they can just accuse you of using a parser. As there is no way to prove use of a parser short of screenshots, any stance the developers take against parsers in practice will require that the accuser's words are taken as fact. They could be considered partial, such that X number of reports must be filed against a given player for them to be banned, but you nonetheless empower people to harass others with zero proof, be it of actual harassment or of use of third-party tools.
   
   
2. Constraints of available time, effort, and attention do matter. That you could do a particular task given infinite time is not the same as being able to complete it within the time given or the task being practically applicable. No one has ever claimed that parsers provide unique information, only that they are uniquely convenient. That convenience does in some way make them uniquely informative. Please do not conflate a computer program and an abacus for sake of twisted argument.

Yes, I can identify an Ice Mage as an underperformer by the simple fact that he is refusing to use Fire spells. I can tell when a DRG is cutting their combos short, or when a Bard is delaying between song refreshes, or even when a SMN isn't juggling their Tri-disasters well. The obvious will remain obvious, to whatever degree the party is familiar with the jobs in question. Bad luck if you're a popularly played job (or if the possible errors therein are considered common knowledge, however flawed that knowledge may actually be); good luck if you're a more rarely played job.

The problem is the closer calls and the toxicity a lack of timely information enforces. You now have to wonder whether a person actually made more mistakes, or if their mistakes were just more visible. And in any kick, you have to wonder who's going to take the blame and the potential ban for having removed a player who had no business expecting everyone else to carry them through the content. That is, again, toxic.

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Originally Posted by Annihilism

Why not just get better at the game and not hold back your party because you rather lala erp?

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Because lala erp is the game's core attraction and shouldn't be oppressed by people who want to do content?

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

I don't disagree with the core message; you don't need third party tools to get better. You don't need gym equipment to work out either. They are very helpful, though, and can expedite the process. I'd just like to take this moment to point out that the PS4 is a third party to SE. Their record feature is literally a third party tool. It falls under the same "third party tools" that Yoshi P pointed out when mentioning Discord, how it doesn't interfere with the game and thus is okay, but it remains a third party tool. StreamLabs OBS, likewise, was way more useful to my prog than a parser was. Humorously enough, like a parser, it can be used to harass others as seen in the case of Arthars v. That One Black Mage, 2019.

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Fair enough. I don't have an argument towards that. However I will also point out that I don't need to see everyone else's progress at the gym in order to expedite this process. And if we want to continue with the analogy, if there is a piece of equipment at the gym that I am prohibited to use despite the fact that I know it will improve my workout; I'm not going to use it, because it's against the rules and I would like to continue to workout at this gym.

Fact of the matter is that players who want to improve will use whatever tools are available to them in order to do so, and any tool that can be used maliciously will have to be dealt with, or a guideline set that they are not allowed. We're still on square one, unfortunately. Now in my case, the game does have a duty recorder but it is limited. As such, I still use the PS4 capture feature. I'm willing to bet the same could be said for the parsers. If SE did bring in a tool where a player can only view their own performance, that tool would be deemed inferior and the same third party tools being used now will remain. Why spend the resources when you can just nip it at the bud?

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Originally Posted by Gemina

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But people do go to the gym in groups and spot for one another and have coaches tell them how to lift properly etc. It's the same principle whether you go to the gym for self improvement or as a group to help others as well as yourself, it's just that going to the gym has no enrage so there's no need to kick someone out for low dps (lifting low or w.e).

It would be like this, a dumbbell (parser) by itself is not inherently toxic to other people but if some idiot decides to attack someone with dumbbell (Parser) is it better to restrict the dumbbell for the whole gym? Or just ban the idiot that used it as a weapon? The point here is that SE doesn't want to even consider a parser, even if it presented just your own dps and damage taken it would be at least a start, it wouldn't matter if it was inferior to ACT, it would enable the whole playerbase to get an idea of what they are doing especially PS4 players.

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Originally Posted by LolitaBansheeMeru

You can't blame the tool or entertainment for human behavior. The tools don't make a person behave diffrently than they normally would. The cold truth of it those people who are being called "toxic" would always behave that way rather they use a tool or not just like anyone who is violent is violent because thats who they are not because a "tool" or entertainment made them do it. People do what they want to do stop blaming innocent tools,objects,drinks etc for human natural behavior

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It's less about blaming tools and more about regulating what people can/should do with certain tools. Whether or not tools can make people behave in a certain way, they can certainly facilitate those behaviors.

Ive wondered about a solution since i started last year. The devs must have an idea of what DPS each class can do, either at low level play, mid level play or high level play

EG: A NIN in 460 gear might do the following (Im pulling numbers outside my backside here)
Low level: 9k
Mid Level: 11k
High level: 13k

We have the training system where you can practice for days rotation and such, and they're somewhat linked to the trials if i recall correctly? Why not have it a requirement to do say Hades EX is you have to clear it in this practice mode thing first as a kind of proof you know your rotation?

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Originally Posted by linay

It's less about blaming tools and more about regulating what people can/should do with certain tools. Whether or not tools can make people behave in a certain way, they can certainly facilitate those behaviors.

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But they don't?

When things go wrong, people check their existing information for the cause or causes for either of two reasons: (1) they feel they've been somehow cheated (e.g. someone did not meet the practical prerequisites to the fight or is purposely neglecting their tasks) or (2) they simply want to complete the content they've signed up for. You can call the first a more negative or defensive reaction to the situation, sure, but it's far from unwarranted.

The level of information each player possesses does not curb the conflict that will arise when things go wrong, nor the behavior occurring once that conflict incurs. Being aware of a failure triggers that conflict, not merely being aware of the causes for that failure. At that point, information only resolves the conflict more quickly and with fewer tangential factors (such as (1) how noticeable one player's mistakes were compared to others', based on (2) how much party members think they know about the jobs that have potentially made a mistake, (3) the visibility of their responsibilities, (4) how much time and attention others had to watch those mistakes unfold).

Note that there are other issues that make these conflict resolutions worse but no slower, such as how mistaken those players are in evaluating visual tells or how skewed their observations were in the first place.

Hiding a problem doesn't make it go away. Nor does resolving a inevitable conflict more quickly (and in a fairer, more informed manner) suddenly make a conflict where none would previously have existed. It's just a more informed decision that allows steps to be taken against the existing problem rather than against everyone.

Any group with even minimal awareness of enrage requirements isn't going to quit out of a fight uniquely because their parsers tell them the raid's doing about half the necessary damage; the amount of time spent thus far and the boss's %HP being only half as far drained as it should be does that just fine.

I feel one of the problems is that their focus seems to be on a tool they think might create toxicity, rather than the individuals who are toxic. The game is quite toxic. We have Trusts so players can avoid PF because it can be so toxic to newcomers. We have our "tales of the Duty Finder" thread with thousands of cases of awful behaviour. New players are told to avoid Novice Network. In a lot of cases this goes unpunished.

There are many claims here that you don't need a parser to evaluate performance. In a similar way, you don't need one to behave badly either. It doesn't even aid or facilitate it, being rude or toxic requires no tools. Do we honestly think a troll in a dungeon thinks to himself "I really want to abuse this group, but I can't see figures on their damage, guess I'd better stay quiet and be nice". Or that normal people are like "hey I'm a super nice calm guy, but I can see this BLM has low damage, I'll turn into a raving monster instead of offering friendly help".

It gives the message that abuse is fine as long as you don't go bonkers or mention third party. The message should be that abuse is not fine at all.

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Originally Posted by Early_Lily

We have the training system where you can practice for days rotation and such, and they're somewhat linked to the trials if i recall correctly? Why not have it a requirement to do say Hades EX is you have to clear it in this practice mode thing first as a kind of proof you know your rotation?

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The issue with these is people who think they're much better than they are will complain they're overtuned when they can't steamroll it in minimum ilv, no melds, poor stats, bad weapon, no consumables. Look at SSS for example, many claim that's overtuned, yet every class has beaten it with time left on the clock with a little effort gearing.

I'd be all for a SSS requirement you can set on your premade PF. Similar to ilv or Duty Complete requirements, you need SSS for that duty beaten on that class to join the group. Simple and fair enough.

Welp, first off - that game dont have toxic players. Its not toxic at all, just people start to take thing close to their hearts, so we even cant say where and why they bad.
Second - after all that, you even dont need to try give hints or etc in PF/DF - people just started cry. Yesterday i'm calmly say to SCH in my party why its bad to use Physick (E3S party), and why he need to replace it with other spells. He start being very tilted, wipe raid and leave party.
If we just throw away act, those type of players find another way to cry for defense they poor gamestyle and ignorance.
Problem not in people who use act, problem not in ppl who bad - problem only in ppl, who bad and wanna cry about "elitist etc" after all.

What exactly is so good about blocking off resources and not giving us an alternative?
It's just like blocking chat in Feast. The communication and planning with pugs is gone, and it's made the mode worse than the occasional asshole cursing in chat.

All blocking ACT would do is deny players who want the chance to improve. Sure, there may be a few assholes using parse numbers to be toxic, but the vast majority only care what their personal numbers are. And if you're failing a DPS check over and over again, wouldn't you want to correct the issue? I don't get how Yoshi can sit there and talk down on ACT and not give us anything else to guage our DPS (SSS is overtuned and horrible).

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

I feel one of the problems is that their focus seems to be on a tool they think might create toxicity, rather than the individuals who are toxic.

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It's a bit more than that. It's also a cultural thing like I mentioned before. While other countries like to talk to a player (and usually in a way that involves bickering) the JP playerbase just generally apologizes for their mistake and the group often comforts the player. They move on. If the performance is not going well regardless if it's a tank/healer/dps not performing. They still congratulate people for trying and disband.


In the case of exceptionally (though I'm not entirely sure what their standard is met when they decide that) bad players due to their culture, JP players have a board like 2ch (which is a third party they really have no authority over it) and will name those players. They go out of their way to shame the person including doxxing (revealing address and personal info) making sure that person is isolated from the game by targeting others that may talk with that player and doing the same, They hope that person basically NEVER logs in again or worse commits suicide because of cultural demands and pride.

There was a recent case of this happening to a player which I think SE handled horribly but I digress...

That's not something other the NA/EU player base would necessarily understand and grasp.

I did state earlier as well since people were hyperfocused on DPS, I asked should the meter then be ONLY for DPS, which there wasn't a really good answer, because it's entirely possible that the DPS could be doing the expected damage but it's the TANK (or healer - but they generally have more levity towards whether or not a healer should DPS to begin with). is not doing the optimal rotation and is causing a chunk of damage to be lost. People will blame the wrong thing if it's only for DPS.


Yes, Yoshi P isn't stupid and KNOWS that for the raiding scene ACT is useful, but if you are in a culture where that kind of pressure is baked in you're going to be more sensitive to how toxic it is versus a culture that engages in more bickering but at the end of the day considers harassment minor - and don't go out of their way for the most part to get someone to kill themselves over performance of a game. Like I said earlier the Koike incident that came up in game was a harsh reminder for Yoshi P on how scary that conflict can get for JP. https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...arser/ddxxeua/

So do you release a copy of a JP game without an official parse?

I think people misinterpret me for being against parsing and getting better at performance due to how incredibly snarky/negative the replies have received. I'm actually not, but it's the way those replies are being made is why I SEE why we're never gonna get a parser.

That's what you get when the first 50 levels (and beyond that, let's be real here) are a giant tutorial (that doesn't teach you anything apart from you don't need proper gear).

Other than that, I support Yoshi's position.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

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Ah, the infamous Koike incident. A stand out incident, but not the only victim.

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Originally Posted by Mahrze

Ah, the infamous Koike incident. A stand out incident, but not the only victim.

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Exactly. It's just the most well documented one. Easy to point to. Like I said earlier there was a recent incident of harassment that was terrible to witness, and I'm not happy with SE's treatment of it.