Please reconsider removing job restrictions on glamour armor

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Originally Posted by zeth07

Here is Yoshi-P's excuse for why it's not possible taken from a Kotaku article a few months ago:

https://kotaku.com/we-took-a-bold-st...ect-1835098319

5/29/19
Yoshi-P: to answer about removing the job restrictions, unfortunately, we don’t intend to remove them. The reason is simple.

For players who have played other Final Fantasy titles, they’ll easily recognize these gear designs as a way to identify a particular job...You wouldn’t want to see someone carrying an axe casting black magic. You’d wonder: What the hell kind of game is this?

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This cannot be an acceptable reason for the restriction with the current state of the game's armor selection.

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I find it kind of laughable that he uses that as an excuse when you can go into battle as any class wearing this...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EOXoYQUVUAAyzu3?format=jpg

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Originally Posted by JamieRose

I find it kind of laughable that he uses that as an excuse when you can go into battle as any class wearing this...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EOXoYQUVUAAyzu3?format=jpg

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Wasn't it mentioned that the reason why glamours were initially locked at Lv50 was because of something on the lines of "The designers worked so hard on the gear/outfits?" Yeah, that kind of reasoning doesn't surprise me.

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Originally Posted by LLSmoothJ

Wasn't it mentioned that the reason why glamours were initially locked at Lv50 was because of something on the lines of "The designers worked so hard on the gear/outfits?" Yeah, that kind of reasoning doesn't surprise me.

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My understanding is that culturally it would be embarrassing for Japanese people to say they can't fulfill a request, so instead they deflect it and try to convince you that there's a reason to not actually want it. Weak excuses are all they can use, even if they know it's weak.

Whether it's down to artistic choice or technical limitations is a separate question. (I've said before, I think - but have no proof - it may be artistic choice that specifically the relic gear remains job-locked, and the technical limitations involved in keeping that the case mean that everything else has to remain similarly restricted. I think it may be an all-or-nothing situation where they wouldn't be able to create exceptions to the rule.)

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Originally Posted by Iscah

My understanding is that culturally it would be embarrassing for Japanese people to say they can't fulfill a request, so instead they deflect it and try to convince you that there's a reason to not actually want it. Weak excuses are all they can use, even if they know it's weak.

Whether it's down to artistic choice or technical limitations is a separate question. (I've said before, I think - but have no proof - it may be artistic choice that specifically the relic gear remains job-locked, and the technical limitations involved in keeping that the case mean that everything else has to remain similarly restricted. I think it may be an all-or-nothing situation where they wouldn't be able to create exceptions to the rule.)

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There certainly doesn't seem to be any problems with mixing and matching in the glamour plate window.

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Originally Posted by JamieRose

There certainly doesn't seem to be any problems with mixing and matching in the glamour plate window.

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That's a different system, though? I think it just stores the image of each thing you tried on without trying to apply rules or restrictions, otherwise you wouldn't be able to do the "show all gear" option, or you'd have weird compatibility rules where some things displayed but others didn't.

If they tried to place restrictions on it, you might not be able to try on things you can't equip right now!

Also sometimes it gets confused if you used the 'save outfit' mode and saved a weapon, then try other items on after switching classes. Your previewed character might go into weapon stance for your current class while holding a different type of weapon (which makes for some interesting results!). This never happens in the "real" game, but often enough in previews that I've built up a collection of screenshots.

Right, so they just need to use the system they use in the 'try on' window for the actual game's glamour and we'll be set, right?

I don't get how this is still an argument. There is no reason I shouldn't be able to glamour something that is the same or lower leveled than my current items. The only argument I can see is "but if we let you wear anything you'll just wear gear that isn't for your job," but this is a moot point since you can just disallow us from wearing the items, but allow us to put them in glamour slates.

Basically, glamour slates should be blind to what class you are when applying and only take in level. I don't understand why this isn't already implemented.

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Originally Posted by Aurida

Right, so they just need to use the system they use in the 'try on' window for the actual game's glamour and we'll be set, right?

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No we can't because... well, let's start by assuming my hypothesis is correct: the devs consider that relic gear absolutely, non-negotiably must only be worn by the job it belongs to (regardless of the impact on availability of other things they would be happy to make cross-glamourable).

The current glamour system enforces this rule, so is working as intended. Behind the scenes they might not like it as a solution, but it does what they absolutely need it to do, and the locking of other glamours is considered an unfortunate but necessary side effect.

The dressing room system (essentially "no restrictions") does not enforce this rule: you can see your character wearing pieces from a relic set - or multiple sets at once - that does not belong to your current job. Therefore it is judged unsuitable.

It's only still an argument because this way SE can slowly leak past armor designs into newer expacs by way of giving the designs to new crafted tiers of equipment or the occasional reward from off-brand content, like Ishgard reconstruction, the Anemos/Pagos lockbox sets, or this bit they're doing on the korean and chinese servers where they sell the sets for $15 a pop.

In order to sell this, they've successfully convinced some folks that glamour restrictions are good actually because of a nebulous definition of 'job identity' which instantly ceases to matter for anything but artifact gear the moment SE decides, eh, they don't feel like making new designs for the crafted gear this tier, lessee what HW armors we haven't used yet.

It would be excellent if they'd unlock everything, but without a substantial push from the playerbase, they never will, and we won't get that as long as people continue to one-trick about their precious red mage AF3.

I see plenty of people fighting

"no for glamours, because lose of identity"

while the same people play in santa or chocobo or nier outfits as any Job given, and literary they look the Same!

hypocrites !

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Originally Posted by Aurida

It would be excellent if they'd unlock everything, but without a substantial push from the playerbase, they never will, and we won't get that as long as people continue to one-trick about their precious red mage AF3.

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My point is that it may not be "people" that are precious about keeping their relic gear job-locked; it may be (and from interview comments, probably is) the devs.

I'm not making this argument because I agree with it, I'm pointing out that it may not be that simple to just say "look at all this other gear that could be unlocked".

What I'm seeing is that they keep coming back to talking about how the relic gear shouldn't be shared, even when that isn't specifically the question. They don't like being asked, and might feel uncomfortable about saying no. That tells me to drop the question rather than repeat it again and again.

And while I won't argue in favour of restrictions, I'm of the mindset that we have them and it's unlikely to change - so we have to work with them. It's not like we have a shortage of options in the game's current state, however much we'd like additional ones.

Edit to add:

I guess my line of thought is that it feels like a matter of understanding what is and isn't worth asking for. If they're not willing or able to change the current restrictions, especially if there are technical reasons and it's not just a matter of convincing them to agree, you could ask them ten times and they'd say no every time. But if you accept the overall system is probably here to stay, and work within it - instead ask for specific things you'd like to be made available for all classes - then that is something they can potentially do without having to alter how it works overall.

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they’ll easily recognize these gear designs as a way to identify a particular job

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Assuming that's an accurate quotation, I think that people who point to santa suits and other neutral glamours are misunderstanding what was said.

The point isn't that there can't be neutral glamours, but the opposite, that there are gears that can signify a particular job (or role). This is somewhat weakened by the reuse of gear designs, but even then, they usually tweaked the design so there is still some difference.

Again, it doesn't mean that there can't be gears that are neutral and are not associated with any job.

Also, regarding what the Koreans have, is it SE or the company that deals with FFXIV in Korea that made them? If it's the latter, then SE can still want things differently.

I have a feeling that unshackling job restrictions from glamour, given the game's infamous spaghettie code, might actually be a bigger undertaking than I'd first imagine.

From a philosophical stand point, I'm all for it with the exceptions of main/offhand items and artifact sets.

I don't feel like there's all that much 'job identity' behind many of the sets. You have things like sky rate/sky pirate and others they've outright made crafted versions without role restrictions. Sets like late allagan where you have tanks and ranged dps in the same set. Sets like shisui or yorha dresses from copied factory that have no real 'job' or 'role' identity behind them. You have tank sets that are skimpy and you have healer sets with some armor on them. You have things like moogle costumes, job agnostic mog station and crafted gear, hempen sets, casual clothes, etc. The idea that a tank wearing a robe would clash with role identity is way past a moot point by now.

So I can get not wanting a black mage artifact on a scholar, or a paladin artifact set on a bard, or swapping out a dark knight's greatsword with a red mage rapier.

But I'd be 100% for the typical 'fending/maiming/striking/scouting/aiming/casting/healing' role sets being made inter glamable, even if you have to have a job leveled that 'can' equip a piece to glam it. Gives incentive to level multiple jobs.

I fully support this but don't think it will ever happen. It always gets brushed of with wierd excuses that don't make since. As others have said the games bad code most likely is what is stopping this, but the dev team doesn't want to admit it.

One way to fix is to make all items places into the Glamour Dresser keep only their level rules for glamouring, items placed in the armoire would still keep their job/class and level rules for glamouring; then restrict "artifact" gear from being able to go into the glamour dresser while making all "artifact" storable in the armoire.
done.
I will point out there you can "try on" anything. It doesn't stop you from trying on items unless there is a racial or gender restriction. So, pretty sure you can turn off the role restriction a lot easier.

Unpopular opinion: I don't care for class restrictions in general on gear. So what if someone can equip gear that boosts the wrongs stats!? If they do not know what stats to boost, they aren't going to be great at their job when forced to wear specific gear either. I do understand that PLD armor should only be worn my a PLD, and so on, but that is artifact gear... thematically it is very different.

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Originally Posted by Kohl

Unpopular opinion: I don't care for class restrictions in general on gear. So what if someone can equip gear that boosts the wrongs stats!? If they do not know what stats to boost, they aren't going to be great at their job when forced to wear specific gear either. I do understand that PLD armor should only be worn my a PLD, and so on, but that is artifact gear... thematically it is very different.

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I take it you didn't play back when tanks could equip DPS accessories. Yeah, accessories used to be restriction free like you are suggesting. What happened was tanks would gear up to a certain vitality and then equip DPS accessories to boost their damage. What this led to was a meta in which bad tanks thought DPS stance and DPS accessories were the way you needed to play, even when they didn't have enough vitality or skill to survive such a setup.

It was a mess, and the Devs made the gear restrictions because it was a mess.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

I take it you didn't play back when tanks could equip DPS accessories. Yeah, accessories used to be restriction free like you are suggesting. What happened was tanks would gear up to a certain vitality and then equip DPS accessories to boost their damage. What this led to was a meta in which bad tanks thought DPS stance and DPS accessories were the way you needed to play, even when they didn't have enough vitality or skill to survive such a setup.

It was a mess, and the Devs made the gear restrictions because it was a mess.

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I played the beta, and again when ARR was released... so, yes I played during that; just because I do not hold the same opinion as you, does not mean I somehow lack experience or knowledge. Tanks obsessed with DPS have been a problem to this day (why SE took away the stances)

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Originally Posted by Kohl

I played the beta, and again when ARR was released... so, yes I played during that; just because I do not hold the same opinion as you, does not mean I somehow lack experience or knowledge. Tanks obsessed with DPS have been a problem to this day (why SE took away the stances)

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You don't get my point. DPS accessories are better on a tank than tank accessories after a certain point. This is not something that the Devs want to encourage because the general playerbase is not smart enough to know when that point is. Giving the playerbase free reign over their stats would cause mass toxicity and divides across the playerbase, as has been seen in the tank community for years (being kicked if you don't use DPS stance for example).

The Devs have worked hard to make sure that the systems in place are clear and not up to player interpretation.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

You don't get my point. DPS accessories are better on a tank than tank accessories after a certain point. This is not something that the Devs want to encourage because the general playerbase is not smart enough to know when that point is. Giving the playerbase free reign over their stats would cause mass toxicity and divides across the playerbase, as has been seen in the tank community for years (being kicked if you don't use DPS stance for example).

The Devs have worked hard to make sure that the systems in place are clear and not up to player interpretation.

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lol? We talking about glamour not items itself,

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

I have a feeling that unshackling job restrictions from glamour, given the game's infamous spaghettie code, might actually be a bigger undertaking than I'd first imagine.

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Is the code really that much of a mess? I mean it's not like YandereDev is on the coding team, right?

i just want hallowed chestnut mask for the tanks cause i have kinda made it my characters main thing. worked wonders as a counterpart to the ascian masks and made my experience so much better at a certain plot point so pls consider giving that mask to the tanks as well :3

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Originally Posted by JamieRose

Is the code really that much of a mess? I mean it's not like YandereDev is on the coding team, right?

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I couldn't say, I'm not on the dev team. All I know is that old 1.0 code has made things tricky for them in the past. I'm only guessing that this 'might' actually be harder to do with their current code than I'd initially guess, because sometimes when you're not famliar with how a piece of software works it's not always as clean cut as you'd first imagine.

I kind of wish we could get glamour restrictions on weapons and tools removed too, but I know it will probably never happen. It would just be so fun to have my cul cooking with a sword, or my sam wielding a mighty fishing rod. hahaha

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Originally Posted by HeulGDarian

i just want hallowed chestnut mask for the tanks cause i have kinda made it my characters main thing. worked wonders as a counterpart to the ascian masks and made my experience so much better at a certain plot point so pls consider giving that mask to the tanks as well :3

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It's even more annoying that they made something like an Ascian set with the Nier aiming and scouting sets (although I hate the pants on the latter), when I want it for my casters...

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Originally Posted by Lauront

It's even more annoying that they made something like an Ascian set with the Nier aiming and scouting sets (although I hate the pants on the latter), when I want it for my casters...

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Have you looked at the Darklight mage sets? They're even more Ascian-y.

The thaumaturge guildmaster is wearing the casting robe.

I'm all for job restricted gear. I like some level of individuality between classes, even if later on they release color swapped alternatives for another class.

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Originally Posted by Arngrim_Greyashe

I'm all for job restricted gear. I like some level of individuality between classes, even if later on they release color swapped alternatives for another class.

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Yes, because we all know how in real life that people who are restricted by their government on what they can and can't wear are far more expressive of their individuality than people who are free to wear what they please.

But without sarcasm, not having access to more options does not increase individuality... maybe what you mean is that you enjoy the uniformity of the various roles; which doesn't exist... because I can wear a frog/mog/pig/etc. suit as anything I please. But the question that raises is; should people be forced to make only choices that are enjoyable to a selection of the populace?

(This following is not directly at the person I quoted above...)

Why do people care so much about how other people look anyway... would we be having the inverse of this threads conversation if there were never any restrictions to what clothing someone could wear? "I'd really like if SE would keep Tanks from wearing swimwear/robes/costumes/non-tanky things!"

What if (just imagine) removing restrictions freed up code that could be used to allow for more character creation options? I'm not saying that I think it would (or wouldn't), but what if it did? Would people still want those restrictions because they "don't want to see that"?

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Originally Posted by Kohl

Yes, because we all know how in real life that people who are restricted by their government on what they can and can't wear are far more expressive of their individuality than people who are free to wear what they please.

But without sarcasm, not having access to more options does not increase individuality... maybe what you mean is that you enjoy the uniformity of the various roles; which doesn't exist... because I can wear a frog/mog/pig/etc. suit as anything I please. But the question that raises is; should people be forced to make only choices that are enjoyable to a selection of the populace?

(This following is not directly at the person I quoted above...)

Why do people care so much about how other people look anyway... would we be having the inverse of this threads conversation if there were never any restrictions to what clothing someone could wear? "I'd really like if SE would keep Tanks from wearing swimwear/robes/costumes/non-tanky things!"

What if (just imagine) removing restrictions freed up code that could be used to allow for more character creation options? I'm not saying that I think it would (or wouldn't), but what if it did? Would people still want those restrictions because they "don't want to see that"?

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It's really not that deep. Chill out.

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Originally Posted by Arngrim_Greyashe

It's really not that deep. Chill out.

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Yeah, thinking about stuff doesn't make people not "chill"... well, maybe not for some people.

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Originally Posted by Kohl

Why do people care so much about how other people look anyway... would we be having the inverse of this threads conversation if there were never any restrictions to what clothing someone could wear? "I'd really like if SE would keep Tanks from wearing swimwear/robes/costumes/non-tanky things!"

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Funny because literally a new thread just went up requesting that exact thing, ha ha

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Originally Posted by Aurida

Funny because literally a new thread just went up requesting that exact thing, ha ha

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That's some grade A irony right there; assuming it isn't related to this thread, anyway...

Probably coincidental.

Even before that post appeared, I was going to say people do ask for it from time to time.

(And they presumably haven't considered the "immersive" fashion disasters that will ensue when you get anything but a complete set of gear.)

At the cost of possibly raising the blood pressure levels of people who disagree with me...

I think it's totally fine to have class/job based gear glamouring restrictions. I won't go into details as to why, because frankly those don't matter a bit. I'm just voicing my personal opinion.

Woosh

Making all gear applicable to everyone would vastly reduce the value of rewards, as well as the value of playing a job, because your looks would be less prestigious.

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Originally Posted by Floortank

Making all gear applicable to everyone would vastly reduce the value of rewards, as well as the value of playing a job, because your looks would be less prestigious.

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I'm... a little confused as to what this even means. Reduce the value of rewards? Reduce it HOW? You would still need to get the gear to wear it. Plus, there's no inherent 'prestige' to playing a certain job since anyone else playing the game right now could just swap over and play that same job if they felt like it. In fact, if they have the black mage AF4 in order to glamour it, that means inherently that they have black mage at 80 in order to get it in the first place, so ? ????

I want to support removing job restrictions from armor.

To those who have been asking this for a while now, keep asking and do not give up. This restriction is purely a developer preference - it has nothing to do with in-game logic, rewards, class identity, silhouettes, or whatever other reason. Developer's minds can change on this subject and they do if enough fans get behind this idea. World of Warcraft developers rejected Transmogrification until they did not. SWTOR developers rejected their current cosmetic system until they did not. And now that i think about it, once the change does happen there is never an explanation about why the developers held on so firmly to their old convictions. The fans that sided with the developer's stubbornness also never bring up the topic again after the fact, why they supported such hollow defenses, but of course why would it come up since everyone is so busy finally being able to use their favorite armor pieces on their favorite characters. So keep championing this idea forward!

There are plenty LNC/DRG pieces I am looking to use on other classes.

Yes please, I would like to wear the Republican Signifier Horns on White Mage. I quit healing and mained Red Mage when that was released because I couldn't wear it on White Mage.

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Originally Posted by Aurida

Funny because literally a new thread just went up requesting that exact thing, ha ha

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Wouldn't having both features be the best thing? Then people can glamour how they like, and people who don't want to see the chaos don't have to.

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Originally Posted by linay

I think the real reason is the need vs greed loot restriction. We can glamour everything we can wear, so if every job can glamour everything, then every job can wear everything, and then every job can need on everything. And since we want certain jobs to be able to need on loots, then there is restriction in place for actuals gears (not glamour).

That's why glamour/joke gear doesn't matter, including those worn by npcs.

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Lifting the glamour restriction wouldn't have any effect on what you can need or not: the real piece of gear would still have the class/job restriction and that's what determines if you can cast a need on something

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Originally Posted by Ardox

Lifting the glamour restriction wouldn't have any effect on what you can need or not: the real piece of gear would still have the class/job restriction and that's what determines if you can cast a need on something

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That depends how the restriction is put in place. If it's tied to what you can wear, then removing one restriction might mean removing the other as well, but I could be wrong on that.

Regardless, even if it doesn't work that way, it should. Glamour is as much a valid need, especially when gears get regularly replaced. Not being able to need on a gear that you can use (as a glamour) with your current job just sounds wrong.