What have you done?

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

It's like saying, "Hey, this cucumber, that broccoli and that green pepper are all green! They're all the same thing!"

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It's more like the other side trying to convince us that black pepper is nothing like red pepper...because it's black.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

It's more like the other side trying to convince us that black pepper is nothing like red pepper...because it's black.

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Except that black pepper IS nothing like red pepper....

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Except that black pepper IS nothing like red pepper....

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Sure, how did I miss the obvious difference ?!
https://cdn.thehippyseedcompany.com/...ck-Cobra-3.jpg

My biggest problem with DRK as I said in another post is if I wanted to play a Warrior I would of played a Warrior. I've hated warrior gameplay from the start of ARR up to SHB, just never felt good or meshed with me.

Now they went ahead and made DRK into a WAR, with slightly different seasoning. Since it feels like 4.0 WAR, and plays like 4.0 WAR, my interest in it is waning to non existent. Abyssal drain was also a hugely fun move during AOE pulls, but it was converted into a boring OGCD. I would of had less complaint if they made DRK 5.0 into something different, even if I didn't like it much at least it would of not been 4.0 WAR. If you LOVE dark knight now, you probably also LOVE warrior.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Sure, how did I miss the obvious difference ?!
https://cdn.thehippyseedcompany.com/...ck-Cobra-3.jpg

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You look at them and assume they taste the same, because they look the same, which they are not.

Delirium gives is different to warriors IR. DRK use Delirium to generate MP in order to use other skills, he does not need any preparation to use it. Warrior on the other hand has to get DMG boost from Storms eye, and get infuriate charge to change fell cleave into Inner chaos to do even more damage.
Warriors IR is his cream and butter, DRK delirium is a part of his skill kit, not as important and not as strong.

Just play these both jobs if you dont believe me.

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Originally Posted by RitzNBitz

My biggest problem with DRK as I said in another post is if I wanted to play a Warrior I would of played a Warrior. I've hated warrior gameplay from the start of ARR up to SHB, just never felt good or meshed with me.

Now they went ahead and made DRK into a WAR, with slightly different seasoning. Since it feels like 4.0 WAR, and plays like 4.0 WAR, my interest in it is waning to non existent. Abyssal drain was also a hugely fun move during AOE pulls, but it was converted into a boring OGCD. I would of had less complaint if they made DRK 5.0 into something different, even if I didn't like it much at least it would of not been 4.0 WAR. If you LOVE dark knight now, you probably also LOVE warrior.

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My sentiments exactly, never liked war since 2.0, but did level it -last- Fundamentally this iteration works, but like many said before, its just a new way to spend mp to keep DS up. Personally I preferred the other way. SB took a chunk from DRK. Delirium used to be a split from the SE combo, we used to be able to proc mp from being hit(nerfed to crap in SB) among many other things, Salted Earth in SB gave more Blood. The problem was with blood you had BS and Quietus(and Delirium). Can you guys guess what new blood spenders we got in this version of DRK? Its ok because we sometimes get a CD that lets us spam those new BloodSpend...oh right. What really changed, was that most of DRK identity in HW got gutted each expansion, to now this, WAR clone with a pet that disappears after 20 secs for 2 min with no way to refresh or speed that cd timer up. No haste, terrible mp regen outside of a gutted BW, and replacing spamming DA with spamming edge/flood between gcd or delirium window. I honestly dont know how much identity left DRK can be gutted now, thats always a positive thing, in a bad way- but good in that next expansion, theyll have to rip some arm off of gnb pal or war to give this drk a new skill. Esp since almost every identical ability of the original DRK got dumped into necessary role actions or new skills (everybody gets plunge now) that it couldnt have an identity anymore. Looks like DRK in HW was created on ideas of "what do the tanks need" and then they made a tank like that, and then ripped all of its parts off to solidify the other 2, DRK needs another rework in 6.0, after the rest of its identity is given to the 3 other tanks.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Delirium gives is different to warriors IR. DRK use Delirium to generate MP in order to use other skills, he does not need any preparation to use it.

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No, DRK use Delirium to spam Bloodspiller. The MP refill gives barely above one skill (And that's counting natural regeneration), so it's not game changing at all.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Warrior on the other hand has to get DMG boost from Storms eye

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Except that Storm's Eye is braindead to maintain, exactly like Darkside. So the difference is a 3GCD delay at the very beginning, that you would need anyway for proper timing with other burst skills.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

and get infuriate charge to change fell cleave into Inner chaos to do even more damage.

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Well, basically IR gives you a bit of "cooldown" ressource back while Delirum gives "MP" ressource back. Yep, totally different.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Warriors IR is his cream and butter, DRK delirium is a part of his skill kit, not as important and not as strong.

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The exact same skill for the exact same burst window, but for less results. That makes me feel so much better :)

Good. I'm looking forward to everyone here maintaining near 100% Darkside uptime, just like everyone used to maintain near 100% Scourge uptime in Heavensward. It's just one button press every 30 seconds or so, right? It's funny, even in Heavensward, the first place to troubleshoot someone's performance on DRK was to look at Scourge. "Oh, ah, about that 40% uptime..."

Never, ever underestimate the ability of the playerbase to mess up a simple mechanic. The devs know this, which is why they've given you a very big timer bar. I suggest that you make it as big as possible. Yes, you.

Well, scourge was a gcd that you had to refresh at the last moment, wasn't hard to deal with but you could mess up with its uptime if you were not paying attention. Correct me if I'm wrong but refreshing darkside everytime you have 6000mp (if you want to keep 3000mp for TBN) should be enough to never lose darkside, so you don't even need to pay attention to darkside's timer. The only way I can see a drk losing darkside is because of very poor uses of TBN.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Good. I'm looking forward to everyone here maintaining near 100% Darkside uptime, just like everyone used to maintain near 100% Scourge uptime in Heavensward. It's just one button press every 30 seconds or so, right? It's funny, even in Heavensward, the first place to troubleshoot someone's performance on DRK was to look at Scourge. "Oh, ah, about that 40% uptime..."

Never, ever underestimate the ability of the playerbase to mess up a simple mechanic. The devs know this, which is why they've given you a very big timer bar. I suggest that you make it as big as possible. Yes, you.

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Nope, were gonna mash all our mp out asap, for the speed. Then SE will make the timer 120 sec refresh so we can laugh about it How would you know anyway, its removed from the party status, only indicator now is if someone sees that red glow thats super faint

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Originally Posted by Scremin

LOL. Reading comprehension level? It's almost less than 0!
I displayed quite well every little bit of agression and dislike to your tantrum, and not in the least I hid behind pretty kind words and sarcasm like you ;D
Take a hint. Off the horsey you go! And while you are at it, grow up! And try to be a little less entitled ;D

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Hmm? Oh we’re still doing this? Uhhhh....idk pretend I said something snarky and roll with that I guess.

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Originally Posted by Barachim

Gotta side with the ones not liking the Dark Knight changes. Since the release of Dark Knight, it was my go to Tank. I played Warrior and Paladin as well, but Dark Knight was always my favorite. I heard a lot of complaints about the Job in the past, but rarely ever cared about any of them. I was never a number cruncher, never will be. All that mattered to me was that the Job was fun to play. Mitigation might not have been optimal, it might not have been a beast like the Warrior, Blood Price was nerfed to oblivion (ok, that one bothered me >_< ), but to me, the Job was still fun to play. I always stuck with it and never wavered. But now... now I am contemplating switching to Gunbreaker, because Dark Knight ceased to be fun. It's a viable Tank, but it now feels boring, and that's the worst thing you can do to a Job.

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And this is basically all I’ve been trying to get at from the get go.

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Originally Posted by RitzNBitz

My biggest problem with DRK as I said in another post is if I wanted to play a Warrior I would of played a Warrior. I've hated warrior gameplay from the start of ARR up to SHB, just never felt good or meshed with me.

Now they went ahead and made DRK into a WAR, with slightly different seasoning. Since it feels like 4.0 WAR, and plays like 4.0 WAR, my interest in it is waning to non existent. Abyssal drain was also a hugely fun move during AOE pulls, but it was converted into a boring OGCD. I would of had less complaint if they made DRK 5.0 into something different, even if I didn't like it much at least it would of not been 4.0 WAR. If you LOVE dark knight now, you probably also LOVE warrior.

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that's the thing I dislike the most, don't get me wrong DRK pre 5.0 was a borderline "gimmick" tank that needed tweaks.... but making DRKs into WAR's more gimmicky, less potent and slightly less useful little brother isn't the way to fix the class

They made it easier for tank swapping and it feels and I enjoy using fewer buttons plus I didn't lose my DPS as a paladin.

I don't usually chime in on topics like this but I feel like I need to get my thoughts out. First off, if you find enjoyment in the way that tanks play now, I'm happy to hear that ^^ For me, I can't really put my finger on why the enjoyment has gone, but I believe it has something to do with the removal of the emnity combo and the hard hitting combo. Maybe it goes deeper into the removal of the off-tank stances, but for now I'll focus on my main issue. Right now, I guess off-tank feels fine, but as a main tank, to me when I'd be the MT and I'd use my dps combo as paladin, I'd feel like I was doing more than what was expected of me. And yeah, that's just a feeling but it made me find more enjoyment in the job. It was an optional thing, like you could just spam your aggro combo and have no risking of losing aggro, or you could help out a little more with the dps and use your other combo. The choice was there. This is probably a very underlined issue compared to other people's problems with how the tanks play now, so sorry for that :)

What's even the point of HAVING a stance now? They might as well just have a class toggle button for Main Tank/Off Tank for aggro generation, because that's what it feels like.

PLD is alright, but DRK is improved in its general effectiveness but it's also now pretty boring to play, as well as having Living Dead STILL be utterly useless. I mean, it's not as bad as GNB's Superbolide, but it's close.

Honestly Dark Art spam for every GCD was zzzzz.

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Originally Posted by Johaandr

Honestly Dark Art spam for every GCD was zzzzz.

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It could have been less boring it it gave you different effect instead of just potency increase. In fact, it never should have given any potency increase because DPS trumps all.
The heal for soul eater, a damage/speed buff from syphon strike, a dot for bloodspiller, an AoE at half the potency/half the blood refill for TBN, etc...This way, you would have spend Dark Arts differently each time.

Oh me oh my the thread is still going? Tad surprising that the more "vocal" people didn't just make new ones. As I said before I love new drk. Only tweak it needs to me is make bloodspiller 300-350 mp regain or just 250. I get it's lower as its the single target spam but a lil bit more would be nice.

Other then that I'm good. Heck I picked up dancer and I'm not sold on it atm. En avnt is a completely useless skill that gets two upgrades that take up skill slots that coulda been used for something better, and then we have during walts... so situational you should just remove it from the bar for the use you'll get out of it.

Those are real issues with a class. 2 skills with one that gets pointless upgrades purely for filler nothing else. Increase walts to 300 potency and then it's better with the partner effect.

Now will I say dancer is broken or bad to play? No but as far as a dps goes it feels lacking and the skills more or less blend together so it looks repetitive. But if people enjoy it as is that's fine my me have at it. Would I love some changes? Yes. Do I expect it will get changes? No. Not this soon.

Oh can't edit but I also forgot imho making curing waltzs a 10% buff to healing received party wide is what I'd prefer as to me it'd be more useful that way but that's my opinion. Tons of people love dancer so ant changes ever will probably happen at 6.0 or later

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Originally Posted by NealSnow

Oh can't edit but I also forgot imho making curing waltzs a 10% buff to healing received party wide is what I'd prefer as to me it'd be more useful that way but that's my opinion. Tons of people love dancer so ant changes ever will probably happen at 6.0 or later

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What are you talking about? DNC is a new job that hasn't been played before, unlike DRK which ppl has been enjoying it 4 years now for his esthetics, gameplay and identity has been radically change and simplified, ppl complaint bcs is not like it use to be but better, it's just a brainless ripped job from his identity and gameplay.

If you want to compare this situation the most precise one is the bard drama in HW.

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Originally Posted by shao32

What are you talking about? DNC is a new job that hasn't been played before, unlike DRK which ppl has been enjoying it 4 years now for his esthetics, gameplay and identity has been radically change and simplified, ppl complaint bcs is not like it use to be but better, it's just a brainless ripped job from his identity and gameplay.

If you want to compare this situation the most precise one is the bard drama in HW.

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My point was I don't like dancer that I feel the movement skill and curing walts are utterly uaeless. Just because it's new doesn't me it can't have issues and those along with the repetitive feel of dancer makes me meh on dancer. But as people hear are demanding drk change when it's not nessicary I pointed out a job that could use some changes. But ultimately I doubt it will and if people like dancer as is that's okay too.

All the doom and gloom people are acting like drk is broken as a class when it isnt. Just because you dislike the changes doesn't mean they are bad, it means you don't like them.

That would be fine if people then didn't act entitled to the job that SE should tailor make drk to everyone's whims.

So to repeat drk is fine rn may only need mp regain tweaks. Dancer has two skills that are borderline useless which imo is a bigger concern vs "I don't like how new drk feels therefore broken stupid class" that people are droining on about.

Here we go again "sigh".

Nobody say DRK is a bad job in terms of performance, nobody, the jobs feels bad (subjective) if you have been playing it for 4 years BCS is not the same anymore, it's a question of gameplay and identity not performance, where you guys get there is a performance problem?

This is the tank forums, DNC have no place here, and his issues can't be compared bcs you don't have a previous version of dancer you can compare at all.

"I don't like how things changed" "hur dur homogenization"

Cry me a river, tanks are in the best shape they have ever been, they actually feel fun to play. I finally can stop feeling guilty for wanting to MT or to use raid accessories for extra HP, or for using tank stance.

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Originally Posted by Cosaint

"I don't like how things changed" "hur dur homogenization"

Cry me a river, tanks are in the best shape they have ever been, they actually feel fun to play. I finally can stop feeling guilty for wanting to MT or to use raid accessories for extra HP, or for using tank stance.

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Numbers-wise? Maybe. But DRK right now feels sluggish half the time. I picked up GNB and even at level 60 you feel like you always have something to do outside of 1-2-3 comboing. DRK at 80 has a burst phase where you do all the things at once, and then it's about 40 seconds of snooze/Souleater+TBN/EoS.

The best thing about tanking now is that it makes watching Netflix that much easier.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Sure, how did I miss the obvious difference ?!
https://cdn.thehippyseedcompany.com/...ck-Cobra-3.jpg

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Except that black pepper in the States commonly refers to dried and ground peppercorn which is nothing like red pepper.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

No, DRK use Delirium to spam Bloodspiller. The MP refill gives barely above one skill (And that's counting natural regeneration), so it's not game changing at all.

Except that Storm's Eye is braindead to maintain, exactly like Darkside. So the difference is a 3GCD delay at the very beginning, that you would need anyway for proper timing with other burst skills.

Well, basically IR gives you a bit of "cooldown" ressource back while Delirum gives "MP" ressource back. Yep, totally different.

The exact same skill for the exact same burst window, but for less results. That makes me feel so much better :)

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Thats what was my point.
Warrior IR is playing significant role in his rotation, he executing or messing it up means that he wont do enough big DPS. Warrior not only has to take into account infuriate charges and storms eye buff, but also CD of Upheaval and onslaught to make the most of the windows he has.
DRK on the other hand is not chained so heavily to delirium, sure not using it is a waste, but its not that big, its just a part of his skillset to make things more diverse in his rotation.
There is a crucial difference between DRK playing with delirium and warrior with IR and i cant really help those who cant see it.

Also you could ridicule every single game mechanic down to "pressing just few buttons", like what do you even mean by that? What do you expect from the game? Its a tab targeted mmo after all, not an action combat thingy.

If stormblood DRK was as fine then he would be just slightly altered like warrior was, but instead he has been completely reworked, devs had data to back up the decision, it wasnt very popular tank or job. It wasnt popular for a reason, it was gimmick, double waveing, animation locking job. There were no chance in hell it wouldnt be reworked, especially in this expansion about shadow and darkness stuff. Everyone knew it is going to be reworked.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Warrior IR is playing significant role in his rotation, he executing or messing it up means that he wont do enough big DPS.

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Only because there is a much bigger difference potency between Fell Cleave and its combos. Mechanically, it's the same, and it's supposed to be timed the same.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Also you could ridicule every single game mechanic down to "pressing just few buttons", like what do you even mean by that?

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The only thing I ridiculed is "pressing the same button 5 times", I've said nothing about "pressing a fes buttons"

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

If stormblood DRK was as fine then he would be just slightly altered like warrior was, but instead he has been completely reworked, devs had data to back up the decision, it wasnt very popular tank or job.

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DRK in stormblood wasn't fine, and yes it wasn't very popular...you know what data devs had ? That Warrior was very popular. Hence this rework.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Everyone knew it is going to be reworked.

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Yes, and some people, me included, hoped for a rework that would give DRK its identity, not copy gameplay from other tanks.

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Originally Posted by Cosaint

"I don't like how things changed" "hur dur homogenization"

Cry me a river, tanks are in the best shape they have ever been, they actually feel fun to play. I finally can stop feeling guilty for wanting to MT or to use raid accessories for extra HP, or for using tank stance.

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DRK doesn't.

Why'd you feel guilty about being MT? Heck, if you're DRK you should feel punished for being OT, you want TBN to pop don't you?
I don't see why you should feel bad about using VIT materia, or even chosing not to use STR accessories unless you're one of those that worry about the meta.
Why is using Tank Stance BAD?!?! Even as OT, turning it on would blunt some AoE damage. Unless you're one of those that follow the FFLOGs.

All and all, your complaints seem based around community group think than anything in the game.

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

DRK doesn't.

Why'd you feel guilty about being MT? Heck, if you're DRK you should feel punished for being OT, you want TBN to pop don't you?
I don't see why you should feel bad about using VIT materia, or even chosing not to use STR accessories unless you're one of those that worry about the meta.
Why is using Tank Stance BAD?!?! Even as OT, turning it on would blunt some AoE damage. Unless you're one of those that follow the FFLOGs.

All and all, your complaints seem based around community group think than anything in the game.

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I mean, before using tankstance was rather selfish, wasn't it? You could tank perfectly well without it and it just put an extra strain on dps because they have compensate for the damage the tank didn't want to do.

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Originally Posted by T-Owl

I mean, before using tankstance was rather selfish, wasn't it? You could tank perfectly well without it and it just put an extra strain on dps because they have compensate for the damage the tank didn't want to do.

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Using our Mechanic/stance is selfish? I could say the reverse and say not using it put extra strain on Healers cause they have to compensate for the extra damage the tanks are taking.

You could tank without it but why would you want to? Unless you want to see how you do on FFlogs which in that case I'd say you're a WAR or a DPS that got lost on class selection.

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

Using our Mechanic/stance is selfish? I could say the reverse and say not using it put extra strain on Healers cause they have to compensate for the extra damage the tanks are taking.

You could tank without it but why would you want to? Unless you want to see how you do on FFlogs which in that case I'd say you're a WAR or a DPS that got lost on class selection.

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But healers where fine with tanks tanking in dps stance. So long as you use cooldowns on tank busters. This coming from an ultra casual player.

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

Using our Mechanic/stance is selfish? I could say the reverse and say not using it put extra strain on Healers cause they have to compensate for the extra damage the tanks are taking.

You could tank without it but why would you want to? Unless you want to see how you do on FFlogs which in that case I'd say you're a WAR or a DPS that got lost on class selection.

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Maybe you should not comment on something you don't know anything about, because you have no grasp on how raids worked. Every casual heal from extreme content onwards was easily able to heal the tanks and do dps as well. That was actually required for many dps checks and enrage timers, you know? And the dps loss of tank stance far outweight the potential dps loss of healers had due to increased damage received.

Basic healer and tank dps was necessary for many encounters with enrage timers and actually trying to optimize your damage acted as a hugh relieve for dps, especially in casual groups, where the required damage before enrage by far exceeded what a casual dps could hope to archieve. So yeah, tank stance and pure healing were highly selfish playstyles that put an unnecessary strain on anyone else in the party.

Sorry that you probably have no idea what you are talking about and probably never did any content above msq dungeons, otherwise you would have known. Tanks and Healers doing and optimizing damage is not some FFlogs emeter thing, this is a selfish or lazy players strawman. Doing as much damage as you can do while fulfilling your primary role in a group is an additional support for the entire party, especially for your fellow dps.

I think forcing casual dps to beat the enrage timers in most encounters without the additional support of dps stance tanking and healer dps would have been outright sadistic.

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Originally Posted by Quri

But healers where fine with tanks tanking in dps stance. So long as you use cooldowns on tank busters. This coming from an ultra casual player.

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I like to think I'm also pretty casual but in my experience no one has ever yelled at me for MT'ing in tank stance over "Oh no you didn't do enough damage, why you fail us tank?". I also know I've had heart attacks when the Tank runs in after a wipe without Tank Stance. Weird he didn't argue that he wanted to do more damage when the group reminded him.

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Originally Posted by T-Owl

snip

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"For your fellow DPS"

I'm sorry. Did I enter the wrong section? *Checks*, no I'm in Tank section. Why should I count as a DPS as Tank? Hello?

You are however right in a way. I don't usually do Savage. I do the normal 8 man raids, and the 24 man. And you know I know this is one person's experience but I don't recall anyone yelling at me for having Tank Stance on when I'm being the MT. Oh I've had plently of people tell me and at times insult me if I forget to turn it on but actually having it on? No I don't think anyone has gone "Turn your stance off, we can't win otherwise.". Hmm, if random people I do DF normal causal raids with aren't the most causal people(myself included) and they aren't telling me that I should be turning off my Tank Stance, who IS telling me I should be turning off my tank stance?

You don't need to tell me. I already know. The same people that followed the STR Accessory meta back in Heavensward.

Personally I think making the Tanks just meaty DPS is the wrong way but hey, Tanks are probably easier to gauge on meters than DPS who have to dance around.

I like to think of myself as Causal. I mean I'm probably going to take another week to clear the expansion or so. I've only cleared A9S and 05S. And even before I tried to push as much damage as was possible in tank stance if I was MT. I'll continue to try to push as much damage now with the Tank changes.

My first job however is to use my CD's to blunt incoming damage. It's not holding Aggro anymore so my focus is on Not dying or giving my Healers heart failures. But I'm probably still going to get complaints about how I, a causal, should be helping the causal DPS out more because of timers, and progress, and yadda yadda. I am casual. Why should I suddenly become expert pro raider if the DPS aren't pulling their weight?

In the words of another series; "Get. Good". My job is to make it easier for the healer to keep me alive, my job isn't to carry you across the finish line.

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

DRK doesn't.

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That's subjective. IMO it's infinitely better than the horrible "spam DA" nonsense DRK was in SB. I mained DRK in HW, and quit it because of how bad it was in SB. The current iteration, while not near HW's high standards, is actually enjoyable to me.

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

I like to think I'm also pretty casual but in my experience no one has ever yelled at me for MT'ing in tank stance over "Oh no you didn't do enough damage, why you fail us tank?". I also know I've had heart attacks when the Tank runs in after a wipe without Tank Stance. Weird he didn't argue that he wanted to do more damage when the group reminded him.



"For your fellow DPS"

I'm sorry. Did I enter the wrong section? *Checks*, no I'm in Tank section. Why should I count as a DPS as Tank? Hello?

You are however right in a way. I don't usually do Savage. I do the normal 8 man raids, and the 24 man. And you know I know this is one person's experience but I don't recall anyone yelling at me for having Tank Stance on when I'm being the MT. Oh I've had plently of people tell me and at times insult me if I forget to turn it on but actually having it on? No I don't think anyone has gone "Turn your stance off, we can't win otherwise.". Hmm, if random people I do DF normal causal raids with aren't the most causal people(myself included) and they aren't telling me that I should be turning off my Tank Stance, who IS telling me I should be turning off my tank stance?

You don't need to tell me. I already know. The same people that followed the STR Accessory meta back in Heavensward.

Personally I think making the Tanks just meaty DPS is the wrong way but hey, Tanks are probably easier to gauge on meters than DPS who have to dance around.

I like to think of myself as Causal. I mean I'm probably going to take another week to clear the expansion or so. I've only cleared A9S and 05S. And even before I tried to push as much damage as was possible in tank stance if I was MT. I'll continue to try to push as much damage now with the Tank changes.

My first job however is to use my CD's to blunt incoming damage. It's not holding Aggro anymore so my focus is on Not dying or giving my Healers heart failures. But I'm probably still going to get complaints about how I, a causal, should be helping the causal DPS out more because of timers, and progress, and yadda yadda. I am casual. Why should I suddenly become expert pro raider if the DPS aren't pulling their weight?

In the words of another series; "Get. Good". My job is to make it easier for the healer to keep me alive, my job isn't to carry you across the finish line.

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If thats fine for you ok, but some other tanks wanted to be better then only standard and dps stance was the answer for that. Atleast for me. Makes most Raids easier for all if the Tank can do damage instead of just staying on one point and tank dmg without doing anything else.

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

snip

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Are we really talking about normal content here? Like, seriously? What's next, discuss classes on the basis of MSQ scenarios?

If you think you are even a casual tank if you solely focus on using cds, then sorry. You are not. You are below casual. You are basically the guy who brain afks the entire run. For most of the time, you will only need your cds if you are undergeared or pull wall to wall in dungeons and if the boss uses a tankbuster, which is a normally a long cast which you can identify as a tankbuster by guessing or being hit by it one time. And then again, it really depends on what kind of healer you have. If the healer is purely healing, I actually don't give a fuck about mitigating anything and just purely focus on damage, because it doesn't matter how much damage I eat, as long as the healer isn't playing totally afk I can never receive more damage than he could heal me for outside of wall to wall pulls. The only reason you would even want to mitigate your damage and decrease the amount of healing you need to stay alive would be so that the healer can use more of their gcds for dps spells. I mean, this is literally the only reason you would mitigate in this kind of content, to creat more dps opportunities for your heal. I'm not even sure if there is any tankbuster in normal mode or alliance raid that can actually kill you. If the healer is not dpsing, there is not a single reason for mitigation because he will use his gcds for heals no matter what and all you do by not mitigating is force the heal to afk less.

I mean, you seriously don't know what you are talking about. Your definition of an expert pro raider is an actual casual player who casually raids extreme trials or even some savage raids. You are talking about content below casual, where the game makes it as hard for you too fail as possible. I mean, fuck, this is like if in WoW a LFR Raider would tell a normal raider that he is some elitist elite pro player. This is just delusional to lift yourself to a higher level than you actually play in.

I am a totally casual player. And I never had any problems with tanking in DPS Stance, trying to pull off my rotation and increase my damage and at the same time mitigating damage and avoiding aoes. And I did it, because I knew that without this kind of support, the dps in my groups would have a quite harder time to beat the enrage timer, this is why tanks and healers always should look for optimizing their dps.

I mean, in the words of another series: You should get good. You are the guy who is carried accross the finish lines and then leeched gear from people who actually gave a shit and maybe could have needed it more than you for doing their job as good as they can.

I can't speak for WAR or DRK, but PLD has only become more interesting and fun to play in SHB, not less so. Losing the enmity combo and shield swipe was a small price to pay for what we gained.

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

Why is using Tank Stance BAD?!?! Even as OT, turning it on would blunt some AoE damage.

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Basic run-down of this comes down to simple logic. Blunting raid-wide AOE damage is and was basically meaningless. Dropping grit/going into your DPS stance was a massive DPS increase, and higher DPS = higher clear time. Something dies faster, that's a form of mitigation. This still applies but seeing as tank stances don't exist anymore, eh.