OH GOD NO...

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

Lol you have literally no idea what anybody wants and I still see way more 2.0 and 3.0 relics than anima ones. Anecdotal evidence is for chumps.

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I beg to differ

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus_Mercy

Which stage of the relic though? I despised Eureka and never got past Anemos but even I have the first relic stage. I'm willing to bet people with relics past Anemos are far fewer.

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You would indeed be surprised that you would loose this bet

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Please make a separate relic weapon and quest line for Shadowbringers. Some people only went to Eureka because no alternative was given.

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Arent the alternatives Tome, raid, primal EX and crafted weapons tho?

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Originally Posted by Liale

eureka instances are not open world, they are fully closed off instances

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But then neither is the rest of the world tbh. Zone dividers are a thing

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Originally Posted by swiss_Momo

we had like, almost zero reaction here in the crowd during the whole Eureka section, especially during the extra dungeon part.
So if people are in Eureka not because they enjoy it, but because they are forced to because of all the stuff they locked behind it. Just saying.

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EU had Zero reaction? *thinking*

In the next version of Eureka eliminates the lame "magic elemental wheel" and just focuses on the mnemes it could be fun. The magic wheel just felt like a gaudy "battle system" mechanics that didn't really offer much depth to the overall system since it only altered how much dmg you took/did.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Well that's another relic I won't be getting. If I wanted to play EQ, I would go back to that game. MMOs have moved on from mindless mob grinding, bad level design that restricts exploration, and punishments for exploration like de-leveling. It the path SE wants to go is adding more forced group content based on outdated ideas, I'll just find a game that gives me more flexibility in how I play and follows modern standards.

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Good luck finding a game today with flexibility in how you play especially in a MMO. Just look at the top games atm. WoW had a variety of content but is dying, BDO is literally nothing but a grind fest, BnS is pay to grind. Maybe GW2 but it has its own flaws as well.

And if modern standards means games like fallout 76 then we are all doomed.

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Originally Posted by HiroesX81

I beg to differ

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Post your sources then.

Eureka while itself not bad, it's a large collection of missteps.

The elemental wheel kind of ends up limiting you to fighting only one type of enemy at a time, if you get a second one pulled it will do so much more damage and take so much less it's not even funny...

The quests take you to the middle of enemies that will kill you in one or two hits...

Pagos light grind decided to get an RNG element involved. They took two systems people found problems in, and took the worst of both!

The problem I had with Eureka is they took the worst of two worlds and said "Kiss!" and gave that to us. What I mean is this:

You could argue MMOs have to types of monster flavoring - Grinding and Challanging. In grind MMOs, you plow through enemies, but they dont give you jack for experience. So its just kill a ton of dudes for a long time to get exp. Its cathartic and doesnt really require immense skill or brainpower. Good to play when you just want to mentally turn off. Challange MMOs had fewer monsters, but they were drastically harder to beat but beating them rewarded you fairly well and was worthwhile per kill. Good for if you wanted something to test your skill out on.

Now what FFXIV did was this : Give us tons of monsters who are super hard to kill and yield very little experience. You cant zone out and grind junk cause youll die cause the monsters hit to hard, and theyre not yielding high rewards for killing them. Its unfun and taking the downsides of those two models and giving it to us. Its why the NM train became a thing: People realized that the best bang for their buck was to kill hard boss monsters worth a ton of experience rather than waste time grinding junk monsters worth nothing but still took the same amount of effort. People went essentially for the Challenge type model cause the grind type model was broke.

I want to see the new Eureka before I judge that. Pyros isn't bad, but I hated Pagos. If this new one is fun or at least interesting, could be looking forward to it. Personally, with Eureka, this is the first time I will finish more than 1 relic weapon. I never finished ARR's weapon. They need to improve it quite a lot though. Not just have it as a NM farm train.

We need options as well as something more for a weekly bonus besides XP once we are max level. Don't really have much of a progression either. Would be nice that if there was something I could work towards to increase the amount of light and crystals we obtain from all sources.

I'd also like more options to solo stuff in there, at least one option. Would be nice to also have a control point that you fight against monsters to gain a XP/Light/Damage buff for everyone in there not just finding an elemental and we have to defend that control point every so often.

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Originally Posted by Dralonis

We need options as well as something more for a weekly bonus besides XP once we are max level.

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I agree 100% honestly. How great would it have been if, once you hit max level in a given area, doing your challenge log rewarded crystals, light or both for that specific area when completing each group?

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Originally Posted by HiroesX81

Arent the alternatives Tome, raid, primal EX and crafted weapons tho?

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No. The tome weapon isn't a long term goal, raids+primals require skill and crafting is non-battle content that takes gil. The relic quest and Eureka are easy and grindy ways to get weapons and the former type of content was discontinued. I would like it to return.

A relic quest is a reason for casuals to stay subscribed during those quiet months between patches, something to work towards every time they log in. Tome weapons take 11 dungeon runs and primal weapons take 10 kills so they are not that kind of content. The lack of a relic quest is why I've recently unsubbed for a longer period of time than ever before. Now I'm doing an older relic until my sub runs out again.

I'd rather see 2x as many Alliance raids and actual 8-man hard mode dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

No. The tome weapon isn't a long term goal, raids+primals require skill and crafting is non-battle content that takes gil. The relic quest and Eureka are easy and grindy ways to get weapons and the former type of content was discontinued. I would like it to return.

A relic quest is a reason for casuals to stay subscribed during those quiet months between patches, something to work towards every time they log in. Tome weapons take 11 dungeon runs and primal weapons take 10 kills so they are not that kind of content. The lack of a relic quest is why I've recently unsubbed for a longer period of time than ever before. Now I'm doing an older relic until my sub runs out again.

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Yeah this is my major problem as well. I've been playing this game long enough that most of my long term goals are accomplished and the relic quests of old used to give me a reason to log in every day and poke around at something. Without it, I kinda just log in, knock out the 10 minutes of daily chores, and then afk in my house while I play something else and keep an eye out for someone to need help with something fun in game. Usually the relics could suck up a solid month of my time but Eureka is done in the span of a long weekend.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

The vocal players, in this case, are very much a minority. Eureka was well received by many players and is consistently active when I enter any of the maps. If you and the other critics do not like it, that's fine - but many do and have no issue with resources being allocated towards such content.

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You can keep Eureka, give us our relics back.

you know, instead of making terrible instanced content like Eureka, they can instead make open world areas like we have right now but instead make certain areas extremely difficult since people have been asking for hard open-world content. So you not only make the world bigger, but u give people the hard open world that they asked for that is tied to specific quests and still have the normal world that everyone is used to.

Or square could continue to make obviously hated and unwanted content like diadem/eureka.

This eureka 2.0 talk just leaves me with more unanswered questions. With the introduction of the trust system there is no reason not to make outdoor content like it was in XI. Is the trust system only going to be beneficial for running out of date instant dungeons??? I certainly hope not. We have squadrons that fulfill that role already. If it's to run currently overworld stuff we have chocobos for that and even with those world mobs are a easily soloable. So the question we need to be asking is what purpose does a trust system have if not for open world is it just to replace squadrons or is this eureka 2.0 going to be the sole purpose of utilizing the trust companions?

i have to put my two cents here eureka 2.0 is just bad plain bad. Anemos was great everything afterwards not even close. Sure maybe pagos was bad but you didn't have "roll" for your stats. Pagos also didn't have annoying bunnies(ok tech it did). If you do bunnies again it is just going to en up like last time people crowd around the easy one and ignore the other. I have had it with eureka. I has gotten old. I have shirked off my other responsibilities in order to do its madness. After i grab my hydros weapon i am done. I may go back and do other last but not until i have a large break from eureka. Feel free to put the relic weapon back in eureka again because it isn't worth it to go a second time. 2.0 3.0 relic weapons plz

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

Post your sources then.

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Now why would I need to go and do a thing like that when you could just as easily go into Pyros yourself and check every person there for a completed weapn? Or maybe go into the Eureka explorers discord with over 200+ ppl with completed relics? Or I dunno how about the numerous posts on reddit asking about whats needed to complete the stats? Then again I can just go into Pyros myself since its been constantly active since implementation save for the day when BLU or a major expac came out? Or wait maybe I can just go to Pier#1 and look around for all the Pyros relics. Even my super casual FC members have completed relics. Because I mean clearly everone is going into Pyros ( the dead content ) merely for the story and bunnies of course. And clearly SE is of the opinion its dead content since I mean 'No ones going to hydatos ".

Oh God, yes!

I look forward to what SE has in store for Eureka-like in ShB.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

A relic quest is a reason for casuals to stay subscribed during those quiet months between patches, something to work towards every time they log in. Tome weapons take 11 dungeon runs and primal weapons take 10 kills so they are not that kind of content. The lack of a relic quest is why I've recently unsubbed for a longer period of time than ever before. Now I'm doing an older relic until my sub runs out again.

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After reading several of these "Eureka is bad" threads, I've been left wondering why people want their relic in the first place. Your post sort of provides an answer to this, even though i dont really understand it. People want a weapon without having to run content, to then do what with the weapon? I know I'm strictly doing the Relic for 3 jobs just for the glam, but its not why im subbed or anything.

And where should SE put the relics at instead of eureka?
So much noise for 385 ilevel weapons... Which at the end of a day are still only for glamour purposes.

Going with that logic, they should make all mounts and glamour items dropping in raids, alliance raids or whatever.

No, eureka is there to increase the gaming time for you, and they put these weapons there for the exact same reason.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

And where should SE put the relics at instead of eureka?
So much noise for 385 ilevel weapons... Which at the end of a day are still only for glamour purposes.

Going with that logic, they should make all mounts and glamour items dropping in raids, alliance raids or whatever.

No, eureka is there to increase the gaming time for you, and they put these weapons there for the exact same reason.

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It'd be interesting to see how well that type of content does without a relic attached to it.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

they put these weapons there for the exact same reason.

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They put the relic weapons there because they knew otherwise no one would touch it with a ten foot pole. It's also why they put in there: glamours, housing items and hair styles - some of which are contest winners.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

It'd be interesting to see how well that type of content does without a relic attached to it.

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Even better, I'd like to see how many would do EX primals If there were no weapons or really low drop rate mounts attached to it. Does that make them bad content?

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Originally Posted by Alucard135

Even better, I'd like to see how many would do EX primals If there were no weapons or really low drop rate mounts attached to it. Does that make them bad content?

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It makes them niche since a lot of people won't even touch them with the awards in place until they can unsync it. The people who do run them would still run them for the challenge involved, even if not as much.
Meanwhile Eureka was hailed as one of the expansion's selling points, not really comparable.

That said, the relic weapon has always been a means to get people to run content they otherwise wouldn't. So putting the relic there in the first place is kind of QED in that sense.

At this point they don't actually seem to have any difficulty getting people to run the older content without the relics causing people to gravitate to it. I think the preservation of old content isn't in the situation it was back in 2.0 and 3.0. But Eureka is still content where the winning move is not to play it by afking in town and how anybody finds this defensible is absurd.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

It makes them niche since a lot of people won't even touch them with the awards in place until they can unsync it.

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So dungeons, trials, alliance raids, normal and savage raids, maps and deep dungeons are all niche content, since no one would bother doing them more than once if it wasn't for the rewards they get from them. Kinda makes you wonder what made people like this game in ARR and HW if all these are content that they would run from if they involved any challenge. Maybe it's the story?? Well, some just skip it because they don't care about the story and they only want to go through it quickly to open up the new zones (reward), does that make it a niche content also?

The point is, if you're gonna use the "people only did it for the reward (relic)" argument, then can you provide a content in the game that is so widely liked and received without being tied to a reward? I still do Eureka even though I already have my RDM and DRK relics. Why? Because 1- I like the group environment there, 2- Finally a zone with a sense of danger where you don't just flat out all the mobs with one or two hits 3- I'm making tons of gil from the stuff I get there (reward). And I assure you, even if they were to remove the relic completely from Eureka, people would still complain about any kind of reward being placed there that they're not able to obtain (Take a look at PVP rewards).

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Originally Posted by Alucard135

So dungeons, trials, alliance raids, normal and savage raids, maps and deep dungeons are all niche content, since no one would bother doing them more than once if it wasn't for the rewards they get from them. Kinda makes you wonder what made people like this game in ARR and HW if all these are content that they would run from if they involved any challenge. Maybe it's the story?? Well, some just skip it because they don't care about the story and they only want to go through it quickly to open up the new zones (reward), does that make it a niche content also?

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Reward vs no reward is not the point. As you mention there's more than just the relic available as possible reward anyways. What I'm really suggesting would be to make relics obtainable via multiple paths. IF the relic was also available via other means, how well would Eureka actually do?

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Originally Posted by Alucard135

So dungeons, trials, alliance raids, normal and savage raids, maps and deep dungeons are all niche content, since no one would bother doing them more than once if it wasn't for the rewards they get from them. Kinda makes you wonder what made people like this game in ARR and HW if all these are content that they would run from if they involved any challenge. Maybe it's the story?? Well, some just skip it because they don't care about the story and they only want to go through it quickly to open up the new zones (reward), does that make it a niche content also?

The point is, if you're gonna use the "people only did it for the reward (relic)" argument, then can you provide a content in the game that is so widely liked and received without being tied to a reward? I still do Eureka even though I already have my RDM and DRK relics. Why? Because 1- I like the group environment there, 2- Finally a zone with a sense of danger where you don't just flat out all the mobs with one or two hits 3- I'm making tons of gil from the stuff I get there (reward). And I assure you, even if they were to remove the relic completely from Eureka, people would still complain about any kind of reward being placed there that they're not able to obtain (Take a look at PVP rewards).

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Hildibrand. People will do it for no reward.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Reward vs no reward is not the point. As you mention there's more than just the relic available as possible reward anyways. What I'm really suggesting would be to make relics obtainable via multiple paths. IF the relic was also available via other means, how well would Eureka actually do?

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People would still do it. Saying the relic is the only reason people go there isn't true. Else Anemos would be a deserted land when it first released and people got their relics, since it can easily take you less than three days to get your weapon+full gear set. You wouldn't have seen level 20s still there despite having their relic weapon. Why? there are other rewards to get there. Some do it to cap weakly tomes, the T-rex mount, the bardings, rare drops from NM (Scorpion harness etc.). If the relic was the only reason, that content should have died in less than a week because of how quick it is to get the relic. I didn't mention Pyros cuz some would use the argument that people are doing it for the RNG stat rolls, which I would question the people doing it for the stats as to why they're doing it if they're not going to run savage or ultimate content?

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Originally Posted by Wolf_Heartnet

Hildibrand. People will do it for no reward.

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That's unfair! You can't use Hildibrand because that content is a reward in itself!

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Originally Posted by Alucard135

That's unfair! You can't use Hildibrand because that content is a reward in itself!

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Then maybe more things should be designed that way. Make everything's process a reward itself so it doesn't really matter where they put the other rewards, as opposed to using rewards to see how many people would push through content that's about as fun as jamming rusty nails through their hands to get it.

imo the pushback against Eureka getting so many rewards is because they’ve cut back on giving things out for free or by more accessible means. ie. in HW we’d get 4-6 hairstyles per patch and they’d usually all be added to the aesthetician with the occasional odd one out being added by some other means. In SB we’re down to getting only 2 hairs per patch, and half the time they’ve been locked behind something- pvp, mgp, eureka, potd, etc.

I don’t mind Eureka getting glamours, minions, mounts, and emotes as carrots - most side content gets something in that vein and nearly all the loot is buyable on the mb for those (see: me lol) who don't want to try out their rng. What annoys me is putting relics (and dyeable AFs) in there. I can't earn upgrades with tomes, I can't earn upgrades with beast tribes, I can't earn upgrades with pvp- In HW I had a myriad of ways to work on my relic. In SB I only have one.

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Originally Posted by EusisLandale

Then maybe more things should be designed that way. Make everything's process a reward itself so it doesn't really matter where they put the other rewards, as opposed to using rewards to see how many people would push through content that's about as fun as jamming rusty nails through their hands to get it.

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That was sarcasm lol.

I was in Pagos for a grand total of five minutes before the whiteness of all that snow made my eyes bleed and the soggy remains splat on my keyboard.

No, just no. Maybe if there was a way to skip one of them and go right to the latest one and play catch up. But I'm not setting one foot into that frozen hell of a migraine. I swear that snow was brighter than the snow in Coerthos. e_e

And if I'm forced to go in there for BiS I'm really not going to be happy. BiS shouldn't be locked under that sort of thing. Pretty glamour, mounts, hairs - yes; that I go for. All cosmetic. But a BiS weapon? Please.

'Why aren't you practising your rotation, Gwen?'
'Yeah Gwen, why aren't you doing progging or doing any of those new fancy extremes?'
'Oh, I'm sorry dear friends. For I have to go into Eureka and farm darkness orbs that I will then have a blacksmith ram into the very soul of my weapon for which I may or may not get the correct stats on because RNG is one hell of a mistress.'

pepehands

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Originally Posted by Alucard135

That was sarcasm lol.

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You might have been being sarcastic, but it's true. Hildibrand content is its own reward, and they really do need to design more stuff with that sort of mentality.

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Originally Posted by Alucard135

People would still do it. Saying the relic is the only reason people go there isn't true. Else Anemos would be a deserted land when it first released and people got their relics, since it can easily take you less than three days to get your weapon+full gear set. You wouldn't have seen level 20s still there despite having their relic weapon. Why? there are other rewards to get there. Some do it to cap weakly tomes, the T-rex mount, the bardings, rare drops from NM (Scorpion harness etc.). If the relic was the only reason, that content should have died in less than a week because of how quick it is to get the relic. I didn't mention Pyros cuz some would use the argument that people are doing it for the RNG stat rolls, which I would question the people doing it for the stats as to why they're doing it if they're not going to run savage or ultimate content?

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Then there'd be no problem taking the relic out?

Part of the thing is, that while not needed unless you run Savage level content, people still like to improve their gear. For one, there's kind of nothing else to do in the game because almost anything ties back to it in one way or another, unless it's Gold Saucer related content. Event Crafting and Gathering not only ultimately help someone else get their ilvl up, they have their own ilvl and they need tomes for mats.
Second, just because I can run Expert roulette with 360 doesn't mean I won't enjoy it more now that my casual self is at 394 with as much points invested into the stats of my choice as I could manage. I like to perform well and improve myself, even if my latency, and more importantly, anxiety, keep me from tackling more difficult content (and I still got my bum into Suzaku ex a couple of times). It allows for more mistakes because I have more hp, it allows me to make up for party members whose dps is underwhelming. There's a lot of reasons for people who don't do Savage or even Extreme to want to get better gear.