Blue mage is a waste of potential, change my mind.

Call me a troll if you like. I find it funny that my simple questions are so jampacked with trickery though.

There's nothing blu can do solo that no other job is similarly capable of solo. By any stripe blu can be called solo, any other job can be too. Rdm is a solo job, it can solo to the bottom of potd and the top of hoh.

Similarly you won't outline what you find a "good argument" instead hoping that we give up because you have answers to some of the arguments brought up. There's not going to be a single argument that Yoshi couldn't handwave in some way. A lot of really good arguments get handwaved away and due to the nature of questioning, a dialectic can't be opened with him to continue any discussion past the first handwave.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

In a random fit of more wasted potential, I just realized you have no spells from Good King Moggle Mog XII, may his splendid Pom remain ever bounciful, Kupo.

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Simple, it will be our futur Limite Break ^^

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Originally Posted by Ceasaria

Simple, it will be our futur Limite Break ^^

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Don't play with my heart like this

The only ting I have found useful for BLU is the exp buff for companion as I started BLU my companion was only rank 2. I'm now level 46 BLU and my companion is rank 9. Of course this more than likely will be nerfed.

Overall the rotations are suspect at best. I personal cant stand level increment spells like level 5 petrify or level x number death. I feel like the BLU concept should be made for utility only.

If, however they were to implement this you have to add other jobs with utility or create new classes. Not likely.

I have no doubt SE will do something of course but for better or worse, BLU seems like a good idea on paper but terrible execution on gaming.

Yeah, they dropped the ball massively.

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Originally Posted by Whanext

First of all, it is a good thing that SE is trying something new; however, they did not make blue mage right.

As a solo job, 24 out of 49 spells are locked behind dungeons/trials. There is no way or extremely hard to solo them. Even if you can solo it with extremely long time, the spell is also locked behind rng drop. As a solo job, you cannot have fun by just playing solo is a mess.

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BLU is not a "solo" job, for now. The "solo" aspect was stated only on Carnival.

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Originally Posted by Whanext

Either make blue mage super broken to be able to solo everything, or make blue mage into a proper job.

Blue mage is not broken and is also restricted out of duty finder is terrible. You have to rely on other people with lv70 to carry you through defeats the purpose of the concept of solo job. Blue mage has so much potential, but current design is just a waste of time.

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- It doesn't have to be broken.
- You don't need to rely on people with lv70 to carry you. You can form a full party of BLU and complete any lv50 content, even extreme. Remember that you can tank, heal and DPS.

BLU doesn't fit the actual overworld, that's why he's a long-term job and needs to be limited for now. Maybe at future updates (with Beastmaster) we'll get a better overworld to play with and BLU and new jobs to fit new game styles.
We have tons of other jobs to do lv70 content anyways. I'd rather get new stuff to do, like BLU, instead of another generic job.

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

- You don't need to rely on people with lv70 to carry you. You can form a full party of BLU and complete any lv50 content, even extreme. Remember that you can tank, heal and DPS..

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Good luck with that. I've tried a few full BLU parties. Some times they work, most of the time the tank gets one shot or the other BLUs run out of MP trying to get the tank healed cause BLU doesn't have the defense to tank, regardless of Mighty Guard.

That's cuz BLUs be wearing fabric

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

BLU is not a "solo" job, for now. The "solo" aspect was stated only on Carnival.

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https://i.imgur.com/QvKjd7n.png

'Designed for solo play' is literally the first bullet point on the first slide.

I will concede that that slide is misleading. Designed for solo play = designed for Masked Carnivale. Its kit isn't meant to support anything else. Not Suited for Parties = despite being a Ranged Magic DPS, BLU doesn't actually fit into that niche. In part because it hits like a wet noodle and therefore can't perform a DPS' main objective.
But if that's really what they meant, then whoever put together that presentation should never work on PR related things again. Because what's actually written in the slide, the first intuitive interpretation of it, and what it likely means (mind, still an interpretation, just one that's more in-line with what we actually got) are so detached from each other any relation is coincidental at best.

Doesn't really change the fact that BLU needs to be carried for most of its kit, which is a problem in and of itself.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

https://i.imgur.com/QvKjd7n.png

'Designed for solo play' is literally the first bullet point on the first slide.

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Oof! Nailed it there.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

https://i.imgur.com/QvKjd7n.png

'Designed for solo play' is literally the first bullet point on the first slide.

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'Not Suited for Parties'... Just go and form parties to play the job and get skills! smh.

It's disappointing. I was looking forward to play the job whenever I have some free time and noone is around. Having fun being OP and just slaying all enemies without effort. I dislike the fact that I have to bother other ppl to help me getting the skills, ofc my friends are happy to help, but it's simply not what SE promoted and therefore im going to skip BLU for now. Maybe some changes in the future will make it more interesting for me, but right now it's meh.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

https://i.imgur.com/QvKjd7n.png

'Designed for solo play' is literally the first bullet point on the first slide.

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Is there someone who knows japanese can tell me if the translated text in english matches the japanese text regarding solo play?

There's always quite some hair splitting in those details.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

https://i.imgur.com/QvKjd7n.png

'Designed for solo play' is literally the first bullet point on the first slide.

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You're ignoring the last sentence.

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

You're ignoring the last sentence.

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The second bullet literally says "not suited for parties". What else could that mean? If they were specifically referring to the Masked Carnivale, then they wouldn't need to say the same thing twice in one slide. The last sentence, after the second bullet, is literally only saying that "hey, even though this job CAN be in parties, we need to clarify that the Masked Carnivale is a solo duty" and it is not saying "when we say BLU is designed for solo, we mean the Masked Carnivale".

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

You're ignoring the last sentence.

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It says 'can learn abilities' - not forced to, The lines that hit people are Designed for Solo Play & Not Suited for Parties.
What could be more of a definition than those two headline statements about the class?

Designed for Solo, Not Suited for Parties v the actual - Forced to non-Solo, Forced to Party.
If this was a consumer product, people would just go back and get a refund.

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Originally Posted by Tabbs

The second bullet literally says "not suited for parties". What else could that mean? If they were specifically referring to the Masked Carnivale, then they wouldn't need to say the same thing twice in one slide. The last sentence, after the second bullet, is literally only saying that "hey, even though this job CAN be in parties, we need to clarify that the Masked Carnivale is a solo duty" and it is not saying "when we say BLU is designed for solo, we mean the Masked Carnivale".

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Originally Posted by Teraluna

It says 'can learn abilities' - not forced to, The lines that hit people are Designed for Solo Play & Not Suited for Parties.
What could be more of a definition than those two headline statements about the class?

Designed for Solo, Not Suited for Parties v the actual - Forced to non-Solo, Forced to Party.
If this was a consumer product, people would just go back and get a refund.

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Ok then, let's change the point of view to see if it helps to understand;

SE didn't state that BLU was meant to solo dungeons. Prove it if I'm wrong.

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

SE didn't state that BLU was meant to solo dungeons

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Then the problem is SE locked BLU skills behind those non-soloable dungeons.

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

Ok then, let's change the point of view to see if it helps to understand;

SE didn't state that BLU was meant to solo dungeons. Prove it if I'm wrong.

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SE also didn't state that BLU was meant to party up. But what they DID state was that, as you can clearly see in the above screenshot, that it was meant for solo play and wasn't designed for parties. They also stated that it was SO OVERPOWERED that it would break current content. Both of these things imply it is capable of soloing most or all content.

There's nothing to prove wrong. Everyone knows they didn't state explicitly that, but they certainly implied it, intentionally or no.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

Is there someone who knows japanese can tell me if the translated text in english matches the japanese text regarding solo play?

There's always quite some hair splitting in those details.

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I’m not a native speaker, but I’ve studied Japanese for several years now, so take this as you will...

コツコツとソロで楽しむ育成型
— This one is tricky:
“コツコツ” is onomatopoeia, and it can mean “steadily” (like the steady tapping of something), while “ソロで楽しむ” literally means “enjoy solo” or “participate solo”; 育成 means “rearing, training, cultivation, or promotion”; 型 means “mould, type, model”.
So I’m translating it as “Model that steadily participates solo”.
A bit awkward sounding. While researching, I also read a definition for コツコツ as “little by little”... may ask my professor about it when I see her today.

パーティコンテンツには向かない
— “Not suitable for party content” — direct translation.
“パーティコンテンツ” is “party content”.
“向かない” means “not suitable”; the verb 向く can mean “to be suited for”.

I really hope they unlimit the job soon, maybe during a 5.X patch if it’s too much to ask for before the next expac given how close it is. It’s got all the basic skeleton there from what I can see, and it’s undertuned if anything, not overpowered at all.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Then the problem is SE locked BLU skills behind those non-soloable dungeons.

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Then it could be, again, a translation error in the explained text.
Instead of 'Not suited for Parties' it could've meant 'Not being able to form/join Duty Parties'.

Again, could be hair splitting in my opinion and SE not have worded out properly, thus receiving the fallout of their decision to word it like this.

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

Ok then, let's change the point of view to see if it helps to understand;

SE didn't state that BLU was meant to solo dungeons. Prove it if I'm wrong.

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What the heck has soloing dungeons got to do with being a class stated as Not Suited for Parties - being forced into Parties?
It's like saying Slick Tyres not suited for snow - Here's the snow, now off you go with those Slicks if you want to get to your destination.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

Then it could be, again, a translation error in the explained text.
Instead of 'Not suited for Parties' it could've meant 'Not being able to form/join Duty Parties'.

Again, could be hair splitting in my opinion and SE not have worded out properly, thus receiving the fallout of their decision to word it like this.

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No, the second bullet point is literally a direct translation of the Japanese. If they were meaning “Not able to form/join Duty Parties”, the verb would have a different conjugation—mainly the potential form. Instead, it’s the direct negative of the verb that means “to be suited for”.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

No, the second bullet point is literally a direct translation of the Japanese. If they were meaning “Not able to form/join Duty Parties”, the verb would have a different conjugation—mainly the potential form. Instead, it’s the direct negative of the verb that means “to be suited for”.

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But we can form parties, so that was a thing thrown out of the window at the very start. Forming, as in making or joining existing parties.
So I can assume SE didn't give the text a proper proofreading and didn't clarify this properly by limiting it to Duty Parties, since 'Duty' is whatever is present in the Duty Finder tab without changing the settings (undersized, minimum IL).

Also, thank you for translating the texts. It's very helpful!

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Originally Posted by Arrius

But we can form parties, so that was a thing thrown out of the window at the very start. Forming, as in making or joining existing parties.

So I can assume SE didn't give the text a proper proofreading and didn't clarify this properly by limiting it to Duty Parties, since I assume 'Duty' is whatever is present in the Duty Finder tab without changing the settings (undersized, minimum IL).

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The text says “Not Suitable for Party Content” — it says nothing about forming parties or joining parties, just that they aren’t suitable for party content.

There are several different inferences that can be made about the statement: the one I personally made was that it would be unable to fit into the regular party content due to being difficult to balance. In other words, I interpreted it as the job would actually be a bit overpowered, but it ends up being the opposite. Adding to the advertisement of it being a Solo Job, I also inferred it would have decent soloing capabilities outside of just the Masked Carnivale and overworld mobs, but its solo sustain for content near or at its level is fairly weak.

Only gray parses are allowed in the Masked Carnivale

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Originally Posted by Cled-cat

I really hope they unlimit the job soon, maybe during a 5.X patch if it’s too much to ask for before the next expac given how close it is. It’s got all the basic skeleton there from what I can see, and it’s undertuned if anything, not overpowered at all.

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I suspect that it would take quite a bit of time, but I've thought of a way they can make it work. All time that they were planning to spend on making the next limited job should instead be spent on getting Blue Mage to where it needs to be: a real job.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Then the problem is SE locked BLU skills behind those non-soloable dungeons.

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Yes, that's a bad design, because people are just rushing them with a lv70 (like I did). I could do it with a full party of BLU, but still it would take too much effort.

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Originally Posted by Tabbs

SE also didn't state that BLU was meant to party up. But what they DID state was that, as you can clearly see in the above screenshot, that it was meant for solo play and wasn't designed for parties. They also stated that it was SO OVERPOWERED that it would break current content. Both of these things imply it is capable of soloing most or all content.

There's nothing to prove wrong. Everyone knows they didn't state explicitly that, but they certainly implied it, intentionally or no.

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Solo play = Carnival. All we can "solo" right now is anything from the lv50 overworld and Carnival.

And yes, if BLU was lv70 it would break the content, like spamming Doom to a lv70 FATE or using Missile/Doom to clear super fast a dungeon. Not to mention that he will have Level5 Death at lv60. And no, they didn't imply you could solo an entire dungeon or a Primal EX, not at least at it's current state.

BLU is a long-term job and it's not fully "unlocked", because he's capped at lv50.
There's lot of room for improvement yet, but I like the idea and I hope some day it will catch up the res ob job's level.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

But we can form parties, so that was a thing thrown out of the window at the very start. Forming, as in making or joining existing parties.
So I can assume SE didn't give the text a proper proofreading and didn't clarify this properly by limiting it to Duty Parties, since 'Duty' is whatever is present in the Duty Finder tab without changing the settings (undersized, minimum IL).

Also, thank you for translating the texts. It's very helpful!

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I do not understand what you are trying to argue. The slide is literally official translated, and SE should take full responsibility of the words they showed/said. Poor proofreading is a terrible excuse.

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

Yes, that's a bad design, because people are just rushing them with a lv70 (like I did). I could do it with a full party of BLU, but still it would take too much effort.



Solo play = Carnival. All we can "solo" right now is anything from the lv50 overworld and Carnival.

And yes, if BLU was lv70 it would break the content, like spamming Doom to a lv70 FATE or using Missile/Doom to clear super fast a dungeon. Not to mention that he will have Level5 Death at lv60. And no, they didn't imply you could solo an entire dungeon or a Primal EX, not at least at it's current state.

BLU is a long-term job and it's not fully "unlocked", because he's capped at lv50.
There's lot of room for improvement yet, but I like the idea and I hope some day it will catch up the res ob job's level.

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This can be easily fixed by making bosses immune to doom/missile, and Dev already did that. Doom and missile do not work on most of the bosses. This is just some convenient excuses for the lazy work, and it already does not stand with itself.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

The text says “Not Suitable for Party Content” — it says nothing about forming parties or joining parties, just that they aren’t suitable for party content.

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But they were straight locked out of the matchmaking Duty content but still could make their own parties and tackle dungeons, of they could've just simply mentioned that beforehand and saved everyone the guessing back then.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

There are several different inferences that can be made about the statement: the one I personally made was that it would be unable to fit into the regular party content due to being difficult to balance. In other words, I interpreted it as the job would actually be a bit overpowered, but it ends up being the opposite. Adding to the advertisement of it being a Solo Job, I also inferred it would have decent soloing capabilities outside of just the Masked Carnivale and overworld mobs, but its solo sustain for content near or at its level is fairly weak.

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I think of the game balance as a rough line, where the Blue Mage is making sharp jumps up and down due to certain spells. And those 'sharp jumps' cannot be 'smoothed out' as that would endanger the integrity of the job, as the mmo's of this time and age are much simpler in terms to gameplay, complexity and depth. Just look at XI and the roster of spells they got over there.

As for the solo aspect, I would've gone with 'Designed for Solo-Oriented play' and soften the argument instead of taking a hard stance of 'Designed for Solo play'.
Just me, tho.

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

Yes, that's a bad design, because people are just rushing them with a lv70 (like I did). I could do it with a full party of BLU, but still it would take too much effort.

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Honestly, that’s a huge problem. I have no problem partying up with other BLUs, but BLU has poor maintenance/sustain that it just doesn’t make it feasible. Especially not in Extreme primals. And with no Raise, if one BLU dies and the skill just happens to drop for the party, well, sucks for that guy basically. I would have still preferred a version where BLUs could easily solo things like the dungeons, and only have to group up for the “harder stuff”, like Extremes—and, again, make all BLUs feasible; not 1 70, 1~7 BLUs.
Though a broken BLU would have been amazing. And no, I don’t mean “Just Doom the boss XD” broken BLU—just one that actually had some pretty high single-target damage.

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

Solo play = Carnival. All we can "solo" right now is anything from the lv50 overworld and Carnival.

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This seems pretty sad to me. It’s basically the same as other jobs: other level 70 jobs can solo level 70 overworld and Heaven on High. Nothing really different except for some of the Masked Carnivale floors have a sort of puzzle to them (like the floor with the two towers and the slimes).

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

And yes, if BLU was lv70 it would break the content, like spamming Doom to a lv70 FATE or using Missile/Doom to clear super fast a dungeon. Not to mention that he will have Level5 Death at lv60. And no, they didn't imply you could solo an entire dungeon or a Primal EX, not at least at it's current state.

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To be fair, they’d probably make EX bosses immune to Death. Most bosses should be, in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

You're ignoring the last sentence.

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"While blue mages can learn abilities while in parties, the Masked Carnivale can only be accessed by solo blue mages."

Can learn abilities in parties, can, not 'must be in a party to learn some abilities'.

That previous slide was followed by this one.

https://i.imgur.com/ZXv45uW.png

All this combined gives a very strong impression that BLU isn't really meant for instanced party content.

In SE world though this is apparently how you explain that instanced party content is actually pretty vital to BLU progression.

Can a BLU solo Shiva EX?

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Originally Posted by Arrius

I think of the game balance as a rough line, where the Blue Mage is making sharp jumps up and down due to certain spells. And those 'sharp jumps' cannot be 'smoothed out' as that would endanger the integrity of the job, as the mmo's of this time and age are much simpler in terms to gameplay, complexity and depth. Just look at XI and the roster of spells they got over there.

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At first I was very optimistic about blu, I understood why it was limited and didn't challenge their theory.

The thing is, the framework for it to play normally like the other jobs and not compromise the integrity of blu is already there. The lvl 20 job quest as well as the lvl 50 job quests require you to venture out and learn their required spells in order to progress further. Spells like Bomb Toss, Sticky Tongue, and Faze that allow you stun a enemy will allow Sharpened Knife to do more dmg. The same goes for the Ram's Voice, Dragon's Voice combo. So again the framework is there.

There's absolutely nothing stopping them from requiring players to go out and learn a spell or any number of certain spells every 5-10 lvls to complete a job quest and make blu a normal job. As for balance wise and the infamous lvl 5 death example they gave, again...the framework is there. Tail Screw barely works, Lvl 5 Petrify will barely land. Hell, even spells such as Bad Breath, Mind Blast and other status inflicting spells stop landing after a while and start being resisted, not to mention the bosses and mobs that resist from the start. So in the end Blu just feels rushed and lazy.

If anything, it feels like info on blu started leaking from data miners and Yoshi and the dev team pushed the panic button and we got blu sooner than we should have.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Can a BLU solo Shiva EX?

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Unless diamondback works on it, Shiva's sword mechanic would one-hit kill BLU no matter what, since it does 18000 damage split between all targets hit. I doubt BLU would make the dps check of the fight though even if they could survive; they'd be spending way too many GCDs casting white wind considering Shiva's autos can hit for 3-5k depending on vuln stacks.

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Originally Posted by MariaArvana

Unless diamondback works on it, Shiva's sword mechanic would one-hit kill BLU no matter what, since it does 18000 damage split between all targets hit. I doubt BLU would make the dps check of the fight though even if they could survive; they'd be spending way too many GCDs casting white wind considering Shiva's autos can hit for 3-5k depending on vuln stacks.

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And BLU's barely have above 5k HP. So yeah it can't solo. It needs a party for those skills.

BLU is less a solo job then it is a job class with class specific content aka Masked Carnivale.

Sad thing is once you learn all the dungeon skills you have little incentive to run as a BLU because you can't even get Tomestones off of it I believe.

And since most players I know only run roulettes, BLU is locked out of any fun to be had.

The real potential lost would've been if it was a standard job. This is letting you play as a actual BLU not a watered down one that's conformed and balanced around the three role system.

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

The real potential lost would've been if it was a standard job. This is letting you play as a actual BLU not a watered down one that's conformed and balanced around the three role system.

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"Watered down" BLU would at least not have the same 130 potency elemental nuke copypasted five times in its spell list, or multiple crowd control skills that do the same thing, or be flooded with filler spells, or require to be carried in any content it tries to join. I'd happily take a watered down blue mage over a glorified gold saucer attraction that doesn't even give MGP.