State of the Game: Savage+ Dungeons and End Game Leves

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Originally Posted by Ridrina

Hi everyone!

I just wanted to sneak in to say, we very much appreciate your valuable ideas and feedback regarding more high-difficulty content! We escalated this thread to the devs, but please note this doesn't guarantee that these ideas will be implemented.

On that note, my Pomander of Concealment is wearing off (who cleared Heaven on High?!) :cool: Thanks again!

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I share only partly what the OP said, but I'm happy that this got attention nonetheless

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

This is quite possibly the most absurd thing you've ever stated on these forums.

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I'm still waiting for someone to prove they can clear new content legitimately. That's not an absurd request.

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Originally Posted by Lilseph

Small correction here. Parsing has been a thing since first Coil. And many others MMO before this one. It was FFlogs the one that was born mid/end Gordias.

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Ah, thank you! I wasn't around for first coil...since I didn't join the game until around the Gordias era.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

I'm still waiting for someone to prove they can clear new content legitimately. That's not an absurd request.

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we're still waiting for you to actually play Savage. Money where your mouth is, Kisai.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

we're still waiting for you to actually play Savage. Money where your mouth is, Kisai.

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Hey! That's chest thumping!

Don't you dare ask for somebody to actually have attempted content before talking trash about it, or the people that partake in it.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

we're still waiting for you to actually play Savage. Money where your mouth is, Kisai.

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Originally Posted by SargentToughie

Hey! That's chest thumping!

Don't you dare ask for somebody to actually have attempted content before talking trash about it, or the people that partake in it.

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The request is still "Show me you can clear new content without using parsers" first. Even if you could clear it on minimum ilevel synced now, players are already trained to tainted parser feedback.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

I'm still waiting for someone to prove they can clear new content legitimately. That's not an absurd request.

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I'm not really sure what this has to do with my response beyond further confirming your disdain for the raiding scene?

But sure, I'll entertain you. First up, my T5 clear was before (the now defunct) xivapp and I was EU 10th or thereabouts. So pretty much any hardcore replays from early 2.0 will be completely parse and trigger free. As far as more recent stuff goes. You do realise that the parse plugin typically gets broken with each release of a new raid tier right? The first day or two of world progression is usually parse free with a beta plugin taking a day or two and a full release typically coming a few days after that. So uh yeah. I'd list a few of my FC's world first videos for you, but then I doubt you actually care so meh.

Now entertain me for a moment here. Has it ever occurred to you that maybe.... just maybe Yoshida is actually absolutely fine with the current status quo? Raiders get their challenging content and parsing (with the caveat of fight club rules applying) whilst the casuals get an easy mode romp through to focus on cutscenes and storylines with little to no fear of getting pressured or called out.

This has a couple of nice bonuses for his team as well. They get a robust parsing and ranking system developed and hosted at zero cost or man hours. And with them both being 3rd party tools, they get an easy card to crack down on anyone who steps over the line or uses these to abuse their fellow players. I think it's actually a pretty clever approach.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

The request is still "Show me you can clear new content without using parsers" first. Even if you could clear it on minimum ilevel synced now, players are already trained to tainted parser feedback.

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Funny thing...I cleared V1S and V3S, all without even knowing that parsers had existed until I started farming. You know, curse of being on a PS4. Pretty sure I've mentioned this a good while ago, before I started being a forum regular. Ah...and btw, I was on AST, RDM, and DRK. In fact, now that I think about it, I didn't even look into parsers until Deltascape Savage was unlocked. Before Shinryu Ex came out, I didn't use parsers at all - I remember the first group that I started asking for parsers because they carried me while I was on RDM. I remember this clearly because I screwed up at the end of the fight and didn't use the LB3 when the wings were targetable (I was the only ranged). Then that same group got me my first clear 10 minutes later on that particular fight.

What's your excuse?

Ah, and let me add, I cleared V5S and V6S on the first week. When parsers weren't even accurate. So there's that too.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

I'm still waiting for someone to prove they can clear new content legitimately. That's not an absurd request.

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Basically every day 1 clear of content is done without a parser, as the thing requires an update after every major content patch, which takes a day or two.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

The request is still "Show me you can clear new content without using parsers" first. Even if you could clear it on minimum ilevel synced now, players are already trained to tainted parser feedback.

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All of the people who cleared the content on day one since every major patch update, and even minor patches, because the tool does wonky things until it's updated itself. But, if you had actually used ACT, you'd know about that discrepancy.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

You loathe the raid scene, that's fine. We get it. Now please stop spreading gibberish and misinformation about a facet of the game that you clearly don't understand nor have any involvement in.

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Sadly, Sebazy, I don't think these kinds of people will stop no matter how many times people show them how their opinions make zero sense...since they haven't done the content they are constantly complaining about or played with the subset of players (raiders) they constantly complain about.

I am starting to think that what really drives certain people is simply jealousy and the reason I came to this conclusion is a lot to do with how some people insist on claiming nonsensical things about the raiding community and the game that they have no experience with, no logical thoughts about, and no facts to back up their opinions with. So they are simply baseless opinions...which makes said opinions pretty useless, and also serve no real purpose except for the one person those opinions belong to.

They are jealous that players are able to do and complete content that they haven't or don't want to put the effort into doing, so then they simply take that jealousy and seek to diminish other player's accomplishments by creating reasons why that accomplishment isn't that good or that there is a negative stigma attached to the subset of players who complete these accomplishments and claiming things like "Well, they all cheated so it's not like they legitimately earned it." even if no factual cheating was even present.

If they can spread these kinds of thoughts it also makes themselves feel better that they don't have said accomplishments since they literally talk themselves into believing that it wasn't actually hard for those players to achieve it (Savage mechanics aren't even hard! They cheated! They got carried! Enrages are the only thing hard about savage! It's all luck, not skill!) and they comfort/assure themselves that if they wanted to they could complete it/get the accomplishment too, despite not actually knowing how hard the content is personally since they have never tried it.

They also use it as an excuse why they won't do that content because of reasons like "Well, I don't want to be like them. I don't cheat!" so they can disassociate from players who actively do that content so they don't have any obligation to prove to themselves or to others that they can complete the content too. If they don't try they can't fail, so they stay in the protective safety of just snubbing the content, and the players who do that content, from the sidelines while constantly railing against it all.

i just want mainly 2 things a no echo toggle for party leaders or a legacy mode that sets it to true minimum ilvl with no echo. second have wondrous tales actually reward people for old content synched and minimum by modifing their chances rewarding people for doing it with people in a fair fight environment. not really into the gimmicky stuff as i find it can sometimes ruin the dungeons if certain modifiers turn out bad having the effect of the player base only doing certain ones cause they identify bad ones and thus the same challenge occurs to only be doable/recruitable plus you get into a situation where players will only require certain jobs for certain challenges most likely making it something i don't want to happen cause i deal with enough pfs requiring high i lvl requirements and no dupes and other things that discourage overall everyone being able to participate. if they can overall overcome that fine do it, but will they idk. overall the game is hard enough just most players want to play it only a certain way the path of least resistance so idk if adding modded dungeons will overall bring life cause at the end the day all rewards are meaningless how you want to spend your time though and what people consider fun will ultimately decide weather a thing lives or dies especially if it is a mmo

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

I'm not really sure what this has to do with my response beyond further confirming your disdain for the raiding scene?

But sure, I'll entertain you. First up, my T5 clear was before (the now defunct) xivapp and I was EU 10th or thereabouts. So pretty much any hardcore replays from early 2.0 will be completely parse and trigger free. As far as more recent stuff goes. You do realise that the parse plugin typically gets broken with each release of a new raid tier right? The first day or two of world progression is usually parse free with a beta plugin taking a day or two and a full release typically coming a few days after that. So uh yeah. I'd list a few of my FC's world first videos for you, but then I doubt you actually care so meh.

Now entertain me for a moment here. Has it ever occurred to you that maybe.... just maybe Yoshida is actually absolutely fine with the current status quo? Raiders get their challenging content and parsing (with the caveat of fight club rules applying) whilst the casuals get an easy mode romp through to focus on cutscenes and storylines with little to no fear of getting pressured or called out.

This has a couple of nice bonuses for his team as well. They get a robust parsing and ranking system developed and hosted at zero cost or man hours. And with them both being 3rd party tools, they get an easy card to crack down on anyone who steps over the line or uses these to abuse their fellow players. I think it's actually a pretty clever approach.

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Don't you think if SE wanted this, they would have made the leaderboards themselves? All fflogs does is sample the players cherry picked runs. This is useless data. It's like looking at report cards that were graded on a curve of 96% to 99%. Nobody will upload an embarassing run, that's why people need to hide parses because people upload parses where only they look good.

The issue, that some of you still don't get, is that you DO NOT need this stuff. Parser users "optimization" is by looking at numbers they're not supposed to see and only adjusting their strategy to maximize DPS, even if it's counter-intuitive to the content design. You insist on sucking the fun out of the content, and then complain that it's boring. Well it's boring because you did that.

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

All of the people who cleared the content on day one since every major patch update, and even minor patches, because the tool does wonky things until it's updated itself. But, if you had actually used ACT, you'd know about that discrepancy.

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I don't use tools because they are cheat tools. I know how the FFXIV ACT plugin works because I decompiled the thing looking for what it needs administrative privileges for and found that all the FFXIV game client memory addresses and opcodes it spies on are hard coded, as well as KV tables copied from that version of the game client. That is why it partially breaks. But it's never completely broken, because the dev's haven't changed the main opcodes required. In the Lighthouse update, nearly every opcode was relocated. If the developer actually made it parse the game client data before loading, it would rarely be "broken" at all.

SE Devs: and if you want to break it more often randomize the opcodes and make every opcode packet the same size. Also the uinitialized memory causes data leaks and that is bad, pieces of the server code are being sent to the game client in certain packets.

Why not just make parsing only allowed during Ultimate content?

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

I don't use tools because they are cheat tools.

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Welp, better stop using the internet and forums then, because those are tools meant to inform and help people understand more clearly what they do not. You're breaking your own rules and cheating yourself as we speak.

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

Welp, better stop using the internet and forums then, because those are tools meant to inform and help people understand more clearly what they do not. You're breaking your own rules and cheating yourself as we speak.

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I'm starting to understand that it's pointless talking to Kisai. There have been quite a few questions posed to them, and they ignore them for whatever reason. Let's just celebrate the fact that the CMs are going to forward the idea up and hope that the devs seriously consider it. This would be very fun to get into, to be honest.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

The issue, that some of you still don't get, is that you DO NOT need this stuff. Parser users "optimization" is by looking at numbers they're not supposed to see and only adjusting their strategy to maximize DPS, even if it's counter-intuitive to the content design. You insist on sucking the fun out of the content, and then complain that it's boring. Well it's boring because you did that.

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You can see the numbers. It's called float damage and it's in game. Even in game, they reward you for hitting bigger numbers by making crits and direct hits larger text. Although, you wouldn't know that because you don't DPS.The same text is written in the battlelog in game. If someone wanted to, they could calculate their damage using the battlelogs, although it would take far more time.

Besides, you can only speak for yourself. I have had more fun analyzing my numbers and figuring out what does better during my dozens of Byakko EX runs. Way more fun than doing the same thing over and over the exact same way. Improving myself and being a boon to my team is fun to me. Clearly it is not to you.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Playing as intended is how the content is designed, the developers make the content so those at the middle of the bell curve can clear it, not those who cheat their way through content.

This is not the only game where the players who think they're pro's make use of unauthorized tools, and are thus only playing at that level because of said tools. You'd not know if that tank or healer was doing any DPS at all without it. You'd only notice that it takes a few seconds longer on content that you're overgeared for already. There is no content in the game that calls for "optimization" to the level that you use the parser for. Thus it's only used to cheat.

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If content can be cleared without tanks using tank stance and healers barely healing, what purpose does it serve for them to purposely gimp themselves? Forget parsers, the tooltip itself outlines tanks incur a 20% penalty on their damage. Therefore, explain how this benefits the party when nothing hits hard enough to warrant the trade off for a higher defense. This is what you continuously ignore. People aren't playing "as intended" because there is literally no purpose. A tank sitting in tank stance is a complete liability to the party. Harsh but accurate. Now if content hit hard enough where tanks simply couldn't mitigate through everything, you would see them rotate. The reason we don't isn't because of parsers, it's because the devs designed content that simply doesn't necessitate it.

Since we all know you don't do Savage, I will give you a perfect example of this. People skip the Ghost mechanic in o5s because they found if a Warrior, Ninja or Red Mage goes in the tank ghost, they can blow their oGCDs, thereby letting the remaining seven players DPS the boss faster. Not only is that a significant increase in raid DPS, neither tank has to spend any cooldowns nor will players take damage if they happen to exit faster. In this scenario, raiders determined a method that offers superior, damage, mitigation and require less healing. According you, this is cheating because we aren't doing content as intended.

I would ask if you see how illogical your stance is. Unfortunately, you likely never will.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

That content is laughably easy, precisely because you're overgeared for it. That is the case for all MSQ content post-50, that is simply how you play JRPG games.

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That is precisely the issue. Here we have a brand new dungeon and I able to pull trains of mobs while taking virtually zero damage. A parse isn't making the dungeon laughable, it's absurdly low tuning is. And while, yes, my tanks are overgeared, my healers aren't. I barely touched anything more than Assize on a tank with gear no higher than i350. People often assume people only do mass pulls for speed runs. Many tanks pull the whole room to feel like actual tanks. If I did "as the devs intended;" pulling no more than one pack at a time. The healer could literally do /sit. They are 100% useless. Furthermore, I don't need a parse to determine if players aren't performing beyond the bare minimum. If the healers are standing around, you know they aren't DPSing. Likewise, if DPS' MP/TP barely move, you instantly know they aren't aoe-ing. All ACT does is reveal the exact numbers. I already know they aren't contributing.

And it isn't a few seconds either. People like you love to claim healer DPS barely matters. I tested it with a friend the other time. One run she played normally; DPSing aggressively. In the other, her only damage came from Earthly Star. In both parties the DPS contribution was approximately the same yet the latter run took over six minutes longer. That lack of healer DPS accounted for a full third of the run. Why would we play "as intended" in this scenario? The exact same goal was accomplished except one run took less time and the healer wasn't bored out of her skull. If the developers want healers to heal more often, make content hurt. You keep prattling on about parsers. Okay. Go ahead. Explain to the class how an absence of parsers make this content harder.

They don't.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

The fact that you use a parser for anything, means you're incapable of judging that information yourself. Your obsession with minmaxing DPS on non-DPS roles, where the developers do not take ANY DPS from healers into account in designing the content, and is certainly not needed when you've overgeared the content, is why it's boring and easy. It's a toxic attitude to have, to tell players to play the game in a way it is not designed for, because it helps your parses. Like who gives a care about parses really?

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How about people wanting to improve in lieu of performing at the barest minimum? Or players who aren't interested in carrying other players unwilling to put in any effort. In fact, I have a perfect example of "toxicity". Back when Shinryu came out, we had a Machinist complaining endlessly about not skipping Aerial Blast due to low DPS. In particular, he kept blaming the Monk. What was the damage?

DRG/BRD both above 5,000
MNK 4,000ish
MCH: 3,600

That MNK was wearing i320 crafted gear while the MCH was in various bits of i330 and i340. Evidently, they weren't using a parser otherwise they would have seen their poor performance is what actually hindered our progression. Funny how people can be jerks without a parse, hmm?

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

So these parser raider players who are a minority in the game, ask for harder content, and yet don't even play the content like it was designed. I'm not telling you to play content in an inefficient way, but you are asking for changes to the game that will not be in any way hard because of your parser usage.

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You have yet to explain how a parse makes content easier. Midas Savage is widely considered one of the most difficult raiders released yet parsers existed. And so did FFlogs. The Vault, at release, is another highly acclaimed dungeon due to its difficulty yet parsers existed. How is it, if parsers make everything so easy, people praise older content? Heaven on High floors 81+ are hard not because I may or may not have a parse running. It's because the mobs can actually kill you.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

I'm still waiting for someone to prove they can clear new content legitimately. That's not an absurd request.

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I'll bite.

• Nidhogg EX
• Sophia EX
• Creator Savage (9-11)
• Deltascape Savage (1-3)
• Sigmascape Savage (5-7)
• All 24 mans
• All dungeon content

And I've progged Ultimate without ACT on. See, ACT isn't updated when new content releases. Therefore, all raiders clearing in the first week or so typically have no access to it. My complaints about Alte Roite Savage came long before I had a parse running. Why? Because he died in less than a single lock out; some groups killed him in literally one pull.

No ACT or FFlogs, and yet most raiders consider Alte Roite a complete laughing stock with no business being labeled Savage tier.

So now I ask you, Miss Kisai, all knowing content extraordinaire. What content have you cleared? :)

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Originally Posted by Tsumdere

You can see the numbers. It's called float damage and it's in game. Even in game, they reward you for hitting bigger numbers by making crits and direct hits larger text. Although, you wouldn't know that because you don't DPS.The same text is written in the battlelog in game. If someone wanted to, they could calculate their damage using the battlelogs, although it would take far more time.

Besides, you can only speak for yourself. I have had more fun analyzing my numbers and figuring out what does better during my dozens of Byakko EX runs. Way more fun than doing the same thing over and over the exact same way. Improving myself and being a boon to my team is fun to me. Clearly it is not to you.

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Nonsense. The flying text (that's what the developers called it in one interview) can not be attributed to any specific player because the game updates those on ticks. If you were recording your play with video and had the battle log visible, maybe, you could attribute it to the correct player. But that is not what the parser reads. The act plug developer opted not to read the actual combat log because they don't understand 6 languages to make it work in all versions of the client. Besides that the effect damage is only stored in the animation data, and never shown in the battle log.

Players do not see the belligerent's real HP unless they've turned that on in the parser, or are reading the packet data in some other means. It's never displayed in the game client, but it is used by tools to determine dps since it needs to take into account the belligerents status effects and the players status effects and the pets, and their status effects. The point here still being you don't need to know any of this to play the content.

The people asking for a M+ mode don't even play the content like it's designed now, and complain that it's boring. They use tools to suck the fun out of the content. That is why it's boring. If said content is so easy, then the parser raiders should have no problem turning their tools off and playing any piece of content at any difficultly level. Yet, that's not what is happening is it? That's not what fflogs tracks. Parser raiders are so concerned about parsing, high, that they don't realize they've willingly thrown themselves off the difficulty bell curve and their data is useless for tuning the game.

M+ basically demands that the monster AI stop being dumb. Maybe at +1 to +3 the mobs simply are DPS sponges, but after that they have their own tanks and healers, and at +10 your job crystal is turned off, thus demanding a new strategy. They can't do that right now because turning off the job crystal results in having no skills over level 50, and certain jobs can't be played without their crystal.

The developers should think about how to make this kind of thing fun before thinking about what kind of rewards to offer from it. Because there really is no point in making content just to farm achievements.

You know what would be really nice? If Kisai could actually prove these fallacies. You still haven't answered why exactly you have an issue with raiders, or even shown an attempt to actually be credible with your complaints. How about giving it a try for once, eh? Who knows, might actually revive your dead YouTube channel.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

I'm starting to understand that it's pointless talking to Kisai. There have been quite a few questions posed to them, and they ignore them for whatever reason. Let's just celebrate the fact that the CMs are going to forward the idea up and hope that the devs seriously consider it. This would be very fun to get into, to be honest.

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There really isn't a point, though this is something of a unique situation since Ridrina commented. I feel more compelled to humor her because, ironically, she's the perfect outlet to emphasise why content needs improvement. Yoshida lamented a few months ago how Warriors never want to use Defiance. Thanks to Kisai quoting my post from the tank forums, hopefully they can actually see why many tanks avoid tank stance like it's a plague. Contrary to popular belief, many players and raiders alike want increased healing demands and fights that actually require tank stance be rotated to survive. A suspect very few healers enjoy spending 60-80% of their casts on Stone IV, Broil and Malefic III, but when none of the content require they do much healer, well, what else are they going to do, sit there?

Perhaps this continued discussion will finally prove parsers do not beget toxicity, they are simply a tool which can greatly assist players seeking to improve. Considering the devs want to shrink the skill gap, this is the ideal solution. With that in mind, no one, raider or non-raider alike wants toxic people screaming down aspiring inexperienced players. We want those types of people (they aren't just raiders) dealt with. And we ask the dev look beyond parsers and see toxic people are the minority.

So in a sense, Kisai's given us a platform that I appreciate Ridrina acknowledging.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

There really isn't a point, though this is something of a unique situation since Ridrina commented. I feel more compelled to humor her because, ironically, she's the perfect outlet to emphasise why content needs improvement. Yoshida lamented a few months ago how Warriors never want to use Defiance. Thanks to Kisai quoting my post from the tank forums, hopefully they can actually see why many tanks avoid tank stance like it's a plague. Contrary to popular belief, many players and raiders alike want increased healing demands and fights that actually require tank stance be rotated to survive. A suspect very few healers enjoy spending 60-80% of their casts on Stone IV, Broil and Malefic III, but when none of the content require they do much healer, well, what else are they going to do, sit there?

Perhaps this continued discussion will finally prove parsers do not beget toxicity, they are simply a tool which can greatly assist players seeking to improve. Considering the devs want to shrink the skill gap, this is the ideal solution. With that in mind, no one, raider or non-raider alike wants toxic people screaming down aspiring inexperienced players. We want those types of people (they aren't just raiders) dealt with. And we ask the dev look beyond parsers and see toxic people are the minority.

So in a sense, Kisai's given us a platform that I appreciate Ridrina acknowledging.

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I just hope that the team actually gives it some serious consideration.

I tend to miss out on discussions outside of the GD section, but I do agree that things like tank stance do need to be meaningful. Just from personal experience alone, I can say that I've found that there was no point in keeping a tank stance on in practically all content, save for initial pulls. Amongst all the raiders that I know on the forums and those on Siren, Cactuar, Gilgamesh, and Mateus, I can agree that none of them shoot down new/inexperienced players. I personally feel that the whole issue with skill gap will not be addressed by dumbing down content, but rather, supplying players with the tools in order to play better if they desire it. Hopefully if the devs pick up on this, this will open up a door between us and the devs for discussing new ideas.

That's one thing that I will compliment Blizzard on, particularly with OW, as I have extensive experience with the community. Jeff Kaplan does take feedback fairly seriously, and given how much Yoshi has taken inspiration from WoW, I think this thread is a great opportunity to start off. And not just with them taking feedback from the JP community, either.

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Originally Posted by SargentToughie

Be the change you want to see in the world.

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That saying gets me. Only cause it feels like an impossible feat. in some cases. Like not defending her. But she'll never be able to change what other people do. No one is going to stop metering if she manages to beat sav without the tools. But i understand your point.

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Originally Posted by ko_

But she'll never be able to change what other people do. No one is going to stop metering if she manages to beat sav without the tools. But i understand your point.

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True...however, it at least gives her room to actually talk and have a platform to stand on. As it is, her repeated claims is just white noise, driven by next to no knowledge aside from what she datamined on her PC. Oh, and experiences that she's had in Mabinogi, which honestly doesn't belong in discussion of the likes of FFXIV and WoW.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

You keep prattling on about parsers. Okay. Go ahead. Explain to the class how an absence of parsers make this content harder.

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A strategy should be formed organically, not because "meta demands it", all the abusive green DPS fights pre-SB were a direct result of this. Even Yoshi-P said they don't design any content with the healer's DPS in mind. Content taking longer doesn't mean it's harder, content taking longer is because the players need to form their own strategy. By being told the "meta" for the most efficient strategy that was data mined out of parses, you deprive players who have not yet played the content any choice. You either play it that way or you get the booted because the raiders are hostile to anyone who doesn't parse at their level. That's toxic.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

You have yet to explain how a parse makes content easier.

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Everyone that uses it seems to care more about their own score on a third party site called fflogs, rather than helping PUGs learn the content. All the raiders go off and cordon themselves off so they can farm the content. Meanwhile people who do want to learn the content will not since nobody is willing to play it knowing those raiders will kick them. Thus they push the content off to a later patch and have to clear it unsynced if they want the clear. That's why the EX content clear rates go from 1% at release to 25%-30% after the major content patch. Unsync party clear... there is no fun in unsync clears. Maybe if some of these EX contents had 10% clears that would tell the devs to make it harder. Instead I'm pretty sure 1% clear rate is either telling Yoshi-P that the content is too hard, or the content is too boring or both.

If you want to see an improvement in participation rates for hard content, the entire attitude towards raiders and raiding behavior needs to be pushed towards helpful instead of selfish.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

There really isn't a point, though this is something of a unique situation since Ridrina commented. I feel more compelled to humor her because, ironically, she's the perfect outlet to emphasise why content needs improvement. Yoshida lamented a few months ago how Warriors never want to use Defiance. Thanks to Kisai quoting my post from the tank forums, hopefully they can actually see why many tanks avoid tank stance like it's a plague. Contrary to popular belief, many players and raiders alike want increased healing demands and fights that actually require tank stance be rotated to survive. A suspect very few healers enjoy spending 60-80% of their casts on Stone IV, Broil and Malefic III, but when none of the content require they do much healer, well, what else are they going to do, sit there?

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That we can agree on.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Everyone that uses it seems to care more about their own score on a third party site called fflogs, rather than helping PUGs learn the content. All the raiders go off and cordon themselves off so they can farm the content. Meanwhile people who do want to learn the content will not since nobody is willing to play it knowing those raiders will kick them. Thus they push the content off to a later patch and have to clear it unsynced if they want the clear. That's why the EX content clear rates go from 1% at release to 25%-30% after the major content patch. Unsync party clear... there is no fun in unsync clears. Maybe if some of these EX contents had 10% clears that would tell the devs to make it harder. Instead I'm pretty sure 1% clear rate is either telling Yoshi-P that the content is too hard, or the content is too boring or both.

If you want to see an improvement in participation rates for hard content, the entire attitude towards raiders and raiding behavior needs to be pushed towards helpful instead of selfish.

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You heard it here first, ladies and gentlemen. Raiders don't help new people clear things like EX primals and savage fights exclusively because all we care about are our siq parses. It has nothing at all to do with us not wanting to waste our time spending hours hand holding people through content that we've already mastered. Were it not for parsers and FFlogs, PF would be flooded with people just frothing at the teeth to waste away their hours being the shining, radiant pillars of the community that the casual players so fully deserve.

Remember, raiders: the casual playerbase is entitled to your time. If you don't wanna spend your evenings babysitting 'learning' parties and watching people with no self reflection skills die to the same mechanic several dozen times in a row, that makes you a selfish asshole.

EDIT: I'm sorry, I just need to keep going here, because the implication really upsets me in a way that very few comments do. I told myself I wasn't going to waste any more words replying to a Kisai post but here we are.

A person's time on planet Earth is one of the most precious, finite resources that they can offer. I think it's completely, perfectly valid to not want to spend any of it on people that have absolutely no respect whatsoever for the time that you spend helping them learn. The sheer gall to be able to say "Oh no it's all the Parser's fault all they care about is FFlogs" just hits me in a place that I'm not okay just ignoring.

No, it's not about the parses, or the arbitrary glowing colored numbers on a website that all of like 500 people tops give a toss about. My time is more precious than either of those. The fact that you even implied that it's just for fflogs is just appalling.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

A strategy should be formed organically, not because "meta demands it", all the abusive green DPS fights pre-SB were a direct result of this. Even Yoshi-P said they don't design any content with the healer's DPS in mind. Content taking longer doesn't mean it's harder, content taking longer is because the players need to form their own strategy. By being told the "meta" for the most efficient strategy that was data mined out of parses, you deprive players who have not yet played the content any choice. You either play it that way or you get the booted because the raiders are hostile to anyone who doesn't parse at their level. That's toxic.

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Strategies are formed organically. The meta is determined through a variety of things, including quantitative performance feedback gained by parsing. The meta derives from organically achieved solutions to problems presented by content, not the other way around. Yes, there will be players who do not really understand what they're looking at or talking about who may blindly copy what better players are doing and this may make for a somewhat rigid and unforgiving pug environment at times. However, nobody can actually stop you from doing the content. If you want to do it without parsing or caring about the meta, find some people who think the same way you do and form your own static. Hydaelyn knows there are enough of you complaining in the forums that it shouldn't be that hard to make happen.

As much as you may insist that it's toxic to let manually created groups enforce their own standards for membership and participation, I daresay it's vastly more so to treat all other players as nothing more than a means to an end, a vehicle to carry others who did not put in the same time and effort to get good at the game. Everyone is here to enjoy the game on their own terms. You're here complaining about a lack of choice being toxic while demanding other players not be given a choice you disagree with. You're no better than the people you complain about.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

A strategy should be formed organically, not because "meta demands it", all the abusive green DPS fights pre-SB were a direct result of this. Even Yoshi-P said they don't design any content with the healer's DPS in mind. Content taking longer doesn't mean it's harder, content taking longer is because the players need to form their own strategy. By being told the "meta" for the most efficient strategy that was data mined out of parses, you deprive players who have not yet played the content any choice. You either play it that way or you get the booted because the raiders are hostile to anyone who doesn't parse at their level. That's toxic.

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Okay then, Kisai. Let's turn your little argument to something specific, see if you can actually answer this. Apply what you are saying to Deltascape Savage 3, or Sigmascape Savage 7. Define to me, and others, how the "meta", or rather, "parsers" (but really, you're talking about triggers) deprive players of "organic strategy". Educate me, because I surely do not understand (and keep in mind, I cleared V3 without knowledge of parsers).

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

If you want to see an improvement in participation rates for hard content, the entire attitude towards raiders and raiding behavior needs to be pushed towards helpful instead of selfish.

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If a group is OK with reduced chest count for the current tier Savage, I'm happy to help once the weekly clears are done with the raid team (at the end of the day we are a raid team and we have to make sure we're giving ourselves the best shot at loot on stuff we have on weekly farm, I don't think that's an unrealistic expectation of the group you play with week in week out). For Ex primals which don't have that chest count reduction lockout, sure, let's get teaching and practicing. I haven't been doing the hard content recently because of health issues, but when I did, that was the approach I took. I'm also technically a raider (though more on the casual side). I don't use a parser either. Tell me again how I'm a part of the problem. Most of my static were also very much up for helping others out too.

With current end game gear progression. This just wont work. They need to rework on end game gear ilv and loot in order to make fair reward for those content.

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Originally Posted by ImDingDing

With current end game gear progression. This just wont work. They need to rework on end game gear ilv and loot in order to make fair reward for those content.

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Exactly. With this current loot distribution setup we have (which btw was added so we COULD help players. In Coils it was such that once you completed a turn for that week it became locked out completely until reset), it's impossible for us to help if people ask for 2 chests. And statics generally have rules about PUGs and loot (as in, you have to get the clears with the statics). Our static I believe had one of the more forgiving rulesets: Stuff we had on farm we did together as a static for 2 chests, stuff we were yet to get our first clear on, doesn't matter if your first clear is with a PUG and it reduces our chest count for that week (if we clear it). But as well, let's say we've not yet done our weekly O5S/6S clears, and I help someone with O7S, that's a chest gone for that week with the static, another reason why we have to wait to help. The loot system makes it awkward for us. And I get why they've done it given how the fights are structured, but it does actively hinder us at the same time.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

A strategy should be formed organically, not because "meta demands it", all the abusive green DPS fights pre-SB were a direct result of this. Even Yoshi-P said they don't design any content with the healer's DPS in mind. Content taking longer doesn't mean it's harder, content taking longer is because the players need to form their own strategy. By being told the "meta" for the most efficient strategy that was data mined out of parses, you deprive players who have not yet played the content any choice. You either play it that way or you get the booted because the raiders are hostile to anyone who doesn't parse at their level. That's toxic.

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Those strategies are formed organically, and information is subsequently passed around to assist players who are less skilled. People then have the option to either progress blind or use that information provided. Welcome to have a community grows.

What Yoshida said is completely irrelevant if gameplay functionality allows it. While, yes, they do not account for healer DPS, there simply isn't any reason for healers not to contribute. This isn't meta speak but common courtesy. Why should tanks and DPS have to properly maintain their GCD yet healers choose whether to contribute or stand around doing nothing until damage finally occurs? If you elect not to DPS as a healer, you will spent upwards of 80% literally doing nothing because the content simply doesn't demand it.

No one said content taking longer makes it harder. It's merely wastes people's time for no reason. DPS refusing to aoe makes a ten minute dungeon into a twenty minute one. Why? Because they can't be bothered to press Doom Spike instead of Full Thrust.

Ultimately, it boils down to an easy solution. Come 5.0, make content have some teeth and reduce healer potency. Now healers have to focus more on healing. Considering I have seen how you play, would that not be preferable? Many healers want to heal more, but also recognize the game simply doesn't necessitate it.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Everyone that uses it seems to care more about their own score on a third party site called fflogs, rather than helping PUGs learn the content. All the raiders go off and cordon themselves off so they can farm the content. Meanwhile people who do want to learn the content will not since nobody is willing to play it knowing those raiders will kick them. Thus they push the content off to a later patch and have to clear it unsynced if they want the clear. That's why the EX content clear rates go from 1% at release to 25%-30% after the major content patch. Unsync party clear... there is no fun in unsync clears. Maybe if some of these EX contents had 10% clears that would tell the devs to make it harder. Instead I'm pretty sure 1% clear rate is either telling Yoshi-P that the content is too hard, or the content is too boring or both.

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And yet learning parties not only exist but remain quite prevalent. If you're still learning content, you have no business joining a weekly two chest or Tsukiyomi farm. Raiders are not obligated to take time out of their day and get you clears because you want them. While I am perfectly happy to help some days, others I prefer a quick clear. Is it so much to ask others put forward a comparable effort to myself, especially in harder content? Curiously, for all your insistence of raiders being toxic, you seldom see kicks from average players who actually try.

Regardless, have you a source or are this statistics pulled from Narnia? Because current estimations based on players who have the Lunar Kamuy puts Tsukiyomi clears at 7%. Savage clears have ranged between 10-20% since Creator. And the unofficial census Lucky Bancho does purposely cuts off his calculations when a tier ends. Therefore, the highest level anyone can have clearing Sigmascape Savage is i370. That 1% applies only towards Ultimate.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

True...however, it at least gives her room to actually talk and have a platform to stand on. As it is, her repeated claims is just white noise, driven by next to no knowledge aside from what she datamined on her PC. Oh, and experiences that she's had in Mabinogi, which honestly doesn't belong in discussion of the likes of FFXIV and WoW.

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Yeah. That is true. Maybe it's my own lack of knowing showing but sometimes it does sound like she has a point. I really think someone burned her bad. I understand. I've been burned too. Only difference is I'm not blaming all of raiding or meters. Like I seen that ruin people, but it was on them. I do feel bad cause I can kindof see a point. But there's no back story so it's hard for anyone to relate. Plus you know. Labeling an entire group of players doesn't really give you cool points either.

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Originally Posted by ko_

Yeah. That is true. Maybe it's my own lack of knowing showing but sometimes it does sound like she has a point. I really think someone burned her bad. I understand. I've been burned too. Only difference is I'm not blaming all of raiding or meters. Like I seen that ruin people, but it was on them. I do feel bad cause I can kindof see a point. But there's no back story so it's hard for anyone to relate. Plus you know. Labeling an entire group of players doesn't really give you cool points either.

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There really isn't much of a point. All of the problems they're complaining about could be avoided by taking the initiative and forming a group of like-minded people (same as the people they're complaining about are doing), but they won't do that. They don't want to have to put in effort to get through the content. They're just trying to get carried. They probably don't see it that way, but it's what they're doing for all intents and purposes. There are a lot of players like that in MMORPGs these days, unfortunately. They're "solo" group players: players who do group content, but treat it like a solo experience. This is fine to a point, but as we can see in this thread, people take it too far and start to feel entitled to the time, effort, and resources of other players, even when they're offering nothing back in return. When they don't get that, rather than do anything at all to change their situation, they simply complain that it's those other players–players who are just minding their own business trying to have fun their way–that are the problem. If players don't line up to give them what they want, they'll turn to the developers and demand they change the game so those players are coerced into doing so.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

Exactly. With this current loot distribution setup we have (which btw was added so we COULD help players. In Coils it was such that once you completed a turn for that week it became locked out completely until reset), it's impossible for us to help if people ask for 2 chests. And statics generally have rules about PUGs and loot (as in, you have to get the clears with the statics). Our static I believe had one of the more forgiving rulesets: Stuff we had on farm we did together as a static for 2 chests, stuff we were yet to get our first clear on, doesn't matter if your first clear is with a PUG and it reduces our chest count for that week (if we clear it). But as well, let's say we've not yet done our weekly O5S/6S clears, and I help someone with O7S, that's a chest gone for that week with the static, another reason why we have to wait to help. The loot system makes it awkward for us. And I get why they've done it given how the fights are structured, but it does actively hinder us at the same time.

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I would say that stats don't affect classes that much or offer enough of a variance too, just as I said that dungeon themselves offer not much of variance aside some optimizations.
Tbh there's also the problem that you can reach the wall quite easily and that is a problem in a progressive setting from my experience with D3 GR.
Wow kinda fixes it with titanforging and the chest, but I dunno if we want something like that here

That's why I say they need to rework their base to make it work, hopefully they won't halfass this.

Although a user on reddit says that Yoshida did talk of making challenging version of old content, but who knows what he meant

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

You either play it that way or you get the booted because the raiders are hostile to anyone who doesn't parse at their level. That's toxic.

Everyone that uses it seems to care more about their own score on a third party site called fflogs, rather than helping PUGs learn the content. All the raiders go off and cordon themselves off so they can farm the content.

If you want to see an improvement in participation rates for hard content, the entire attitude towards raiders and raiding behavior needs to be pushed towards helpful instead of selfish.

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So...can you show us, with proof, all the many instances of raiders being hostile at everyone because they weren't parsing at their level?

You don't raid so where are you coming up with these scenarios? It can't be first hand information so where are you getting this idea that all raiders kick and be hostile to everyone like that?

I help people with savage all the time no matter what their skill or experience is. If they want help then I take the time to offer any advice I can and/or taking time to even go with them if I am not busy.

In fact I have two statics right now...one on my main and another on an alt. The alt I simply go with that group to help. I don't need to gear that character nor do I care to gear it or clear anything on it. I go with them solely because I figured I could be of help since I know all the fights and since they needed a permanent caster (my alt is a RDM) and the times were okay for me to squeeze into my schedule.

A lot of other raiders I know help others as well, as long as people show they are interested in learning and want to put in the effort required to learn savage level content then there is no issue.

So, where are all these meanie raiders you speak of? I haven't come across many at all.

There are rude and/or bad attitude players in every facet of this game so how come you only mention raiders as if the raid community is the only one that has players who behave badly? There are plenty of people of all types in this game who behave badly so how come you constantly generalize that all raiders are like this?

There are people who are rude no matter what content they do and it doesn't have anything to do with the raid community as a whole just because there are some bad apples. There are some bad apples in all areas of the game.

If any player takes the time to learn and clear a piece of content then they have the right to farm said content with others who also know the fight at farm status in order to have their fun and complete their own goals too. You are basically trying to demand that people must use their own time to help everyone else clear all the time...people will help when they have time to help or feel like helping....

You can't DEMAND charity from people and then call them selfish when they don't give you what you want, that's not even how it works in real life, let alone MMOs. The fact that this is so obviously not how life works ...the fact that you sat there and typed this out without realizing what you were saying confuses the heck out of me. I don't know how you can sit there and say people are selfish if they don't offer their personal time to everyone who needs help clearing savage.

I mean it is completely hypocritical anyway. Hello? You're calling people selfish for not giving in to your demands for help, but your demands are blatantly selfish. You want raiders to always give up their personal time to help you and anyone else who needs it so that you all can get something you want.

Again, you don't raid, which means you don't play with raiders at all. Where are you getting this idea that they all kick everyone and don't help people learn savage at all? I help and I know plenty of others who help, but not everyone has extra time to offer since everyone here all have lives to live outside of the game. You aren't entitled to help from other players all the time in a MMO. People who do help are common anyway in my experience though, and people help when they have time to, but you cannot DEMAND it.

Also it is funny how you quoted Bourne asking you "You have yet to explain how a parse makes content easier.", because this response you gave still has nothing in it explaining how parsing makes content easier. All you did was complain about raiders (again, but was anyone really surprised at this point?) for, in your opinion, not giving enough of their personal lives and time to helping strangers clear content on a MMO.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Don't you think if SE wanted this, they would have made the leaderboards themselves?

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Why when someone else is going to invariably do it better and for free? Again, you seem to have overlooked my point where the fact that it is effectively a 3rd party tool gives SE much freer reign on clamping down on any potential abuse that revolves around it.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Everyone that uses it seems to care more about their own score on a third party site called fflogs, rather than helping PUGs learn the content. All the raiders go off and cordon themselves off so they can farm the content. Meanwhile people who do want to learn the content will not since nobody is willing to play it knowing those raiders will kick them.

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Honestly, it's pretty clear at this stage that you're blinded by your hatred of the raid scene. We debunk one angle, you just change to another without so much of a passing mention about the prior points where you may indeed stand corrected. It's an endless game of whack-a-mole against misinformation and exaggerated vitriol and frankly I doubt you have any interest in the discussion here. Rather you only seem to want to decry and discredit those that you appear to have so much hate for.

But to add some actual worthwhile content to this post, I'll carry on entertaining you:

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All the raiders go off and cordon themselves off so they can farm the content.

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False - Google various coil turns and DF. There are examples all over reddit, gamefaqs and here of people clearing T5, T9 and T13 in DF prior to Party Finder becoming popular, and yes, I'm referring to examples on the NA and EU data centres. It's also worth noting that a lot of raiders join what's lovingly referred to as Trap Parties. If a bunch of people can't make a raid day, or you've got half a group looking for something to do, it's pretty common place to just jump into the ropiest clear for a friend group that you can find in PF and see what you can do. Success rates vary but it's a popular pass time and one that I've done since 2.0. Lastly, it's surprisingly common for some raiders to have multiple characters in multiple raid teams. Sometimes even across multiple data centres. - Sure, some raiders will isolate themselves into a box with their own static, but to assume that all raiders do that is patently untrue.

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By being told the "meta" for the most efficient strategy that was data mined out of parses, you deprive players who have not yet played the content any choice.

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False - By proxy of the above point, it's common place for raider with multiple characters to join a more casual team with their alt whilst their main team is on hiatus till the next content patch. I do this myself, my discord is full of various groups, teams and FCs that I help out. I'll give them pointers if they get stuck but for the most part, I just hop in and fit myself into their strategies. And trust me when I say, I've seen plenty of strategies that are wildly off piste. - You only have to look as far as TsukyEX to see that you are absolutely wrong on this point, there are multiple strategies used, many of which most certainly weren't the most efficient.

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If you want to see an improvement in participation rates for hard content, the entire attitude towards raiders and raiding behavior needs to be pushed towards helpful instead of selfish.

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False - Stat weights, early clear videos, boss timelines, detailed written guides, youtube guides, word of mouth tips and info passing down from raiders to their more casual friends, groups of raiders joining trap parties, raiders asking their group to help a friend get a clear. - I could go until the post count stops me, I agree 100% that the participation rate in hard content isn't great, but the attitude of raiders isn't the real problem here.

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All fflogs does is sample the players cherry picked runs. This is useless data. It's like looking at report cards that were graded on a curve of 96% to 99%. Nobody will upload an embarassing run, that's why people need to hide parses because people upload parses where only they look good.

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False - Are you sure about that? Are you really sure about that? - Again, you're letting yourself be blinded by your own opinions and prejudices. 2 out of 2 guesses on friend's characters were similarly stacked and also most certainly not cherry picked either. I'm far from unique or special here.

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The issue, that some of you still don't get, is that you DO NOT need this stuff. Parser users "optimization" is by looking at numbers they're not supposed to see and only adjusting their strategy to maximize DPS, even if it's counter-intuitive to the content design.

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False - Gordias required massive amounts of optimisation from near enough any group that wasn't stacked with absolute world class players. Fact. Early progression teams will also typically need to refine and optimise things as they learn new tiers whilst being arguably under geared for them. Fact - Rather than blaming all of this on parses, perhaps it's time you considered that finding an easier way is simply human nature and comes naturally for many? Here's a fun example for you, namely my 'Whm tanking Titan HM' thinger from years back. Do you see the dirty trick that not only made this possible, but actually really quite easy (Note the instance timer, it was a one shot). On the final phase of Titan HM there's actually a small crystal jutting out of the side of the platform half a foot or so below the arena surface. Standing on that puts you just outside of the exploding gaol circle avoiding an almost guaranteed one shot with my squishy cloth defence if I time the circle even slightly wrong. This isn't something a parser could tell me, it's something I saw with my own two eyes and got cheeky enough to actually try in one of my many clears of that trial.

Some people refer to this as human ingenuity. Hopefully I don't need to explain how important this has been over the last few millennia right?

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Originally Posted by Remedi

Also refrain to quote me from now on if you have the need to insult me, I honestly don't have the time and patiente to deal with blizzard fanboys anymore, especially today when blizzard's writing have touched a new low

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1) I am not a Blizzard fanboy. I criticize WoW quite frequently, and many other games as well. Regarding their writing - that is your opinion. I found their Legion writing to be quite good, especially the Suramar bits.

2) No matter how much you think so, me calling your analysis juvenile is not an insult on you personally. I am merely trying to see if I can get you too look at your posts with a rational mindset rather than an emotional one.

I've seen you give good feedback before, but for some reason the mere mention of WoW (or Blizz for that matter), tends to send you down a whirlwind of emotion and irrationality that isn't consistent with previous analysis. I'm all for you not liking Blizz/WoW. Just make sure you can convey your thoughts/examples with concrete points and not misinformation and irrationality.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Everyone that uses it seems to care more about their own score on a third party site called fflogs, rather than helping PUGs learn the content. All the raiders go off and cordon themselves off so they can farm the content. Meanwhile people who do want to learn the content will not since nobody is willing to play it knowing those raiders will kick them.

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This is a good example of juvenile analysis. You clearly didn't put an iota of effort into this otherwise you'd know there are a staggering number of mitigating factors that go into this, honestly much larger than raiders keeping score.

SE is the reason the playerbase is segregated, not raiders. Remember when they put in the cleared only flag for PF? I do. Remember when they took EX's out of the DF until a patch later? I do. I could go on, but I know you won't read or care.

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Thus they push the content off to a later patch and have to clear it unsynced if they want the clear. That's why the EX content clear rates go from 1% at release to 25%-30% after the major content patch. Unsync party clear...

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Source? Or is this more of your made up statistics and hyperbole?

I said enough on why blizzard is just a speck of it former self and why OW is disappointing, I even prefaced it by saying it's a good game, but you ignored that part.
I've criticized the downspiral trend of blizzard and the fact that ppl seems to not care.
Yes I am emotional about blizzard and I have the rights to be if I convey my points wrongly that's my bad but it's how I'm at the moment and frankly calling my points juvenile or w/e won't really make me focus better actually it'll make it worse.

Besides I was talking about the sunday cartoon Sylvanas turn that they released that day, which even by most wow aficionados channels has been panned as disappointing. As I said to my friends. You can be ruthless like Tywin or like Jeoffrey, they choose the latter

Also frankly I've never been good at explaining nor argumenting and English is not my native language so I'm trying my best

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Ultimately, it boils down to an easy solution. Come 5.0, make content have some teeth and reduce healer potency. Now healers have to focus more on healing. Considering I have seen how you play, would that not be preferable? Many healers want to heal more, but also recognize the game simply doesn't necessitate it.

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That comes from gear creep in the game. You start Swallows Compass with i350 or better gear and it literately has no teeth. I've gone into it with my SCH who didn't have an i3xx weapon but otherwise had all i360 gear from my WHM. This goes back to basic JRPG design. You either outlevel the content or you outgear the content or both, to make it easier. The trouble is that, even in old SNES JRPG's is literately the fastest solution when you've outgeared and outleveled the content will sideline the healer. In single player games, it is fine to do that, in a MMORPG it turns every piece of content into "boring" for the healer.

The solution really calls for less stat inflation from gear to begin with. The entire gear reward design in this game effectively requires you to have the best gear from the previous piece of content, but doesn't actually penalize players for skipping the gear from the previous piece of content since it's no longer BiS. Unless content is going to be designed to ignore the defensive properties of the player gear, so it doesn't matter, it simply will never have any teeth. Yoshi-P is caught in a no-win scenario here because setting ilevel caps to all content to only allow +10 from minimum would make most content "hard enough" but it would likely leave the bottom third of the playerbase unable to complete it by any means without being carried. Where as having such little room makes bothering to even get better gear and materia pointless, it would have the opposite effect and make even savage content easier, since players would only need to outgear the dungeon, not obtain the BiS gear.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Curiously, for all your insistence of raiders being toxic, you seldom see kicks from average players who actually try.

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Being kicked by raiders once, is one time too many. You and others wonder why I have such a axe to grind against parser users, the first and only time I was kicked without any communication at all from any party, in 2.5 both DPS players had fflogs in their lodestone profiles,which is what made me aware of that sites existence. This was on The Keeper of the Lake during Expert roulette, which up to that point I had cleared plenty of times, and even with a party with a tank who was wearing DPS gear. I'm willing to roll with what I get on DF, the raiders should not be kicking players for "play style" differences, especially not from dungeon content. The impression I get from the forum raiders is that they check players lodestones and fflogs and kick players just to improve their own parses.

What makes you think I would ever want to play with a parser user after that? No doubt I've played with people who were parsing everything because they're concerned about their ranking on that site, but I don't want to hear it. It is cheating, it violates the ToS, so I'm objectively right. If SE's unwritten policy is to ignore parser users, then they are just going to have an arms race escalation between players building tools that reveal more invisible information from the game until someone crosses a line. That FFXIV ACT plugin is also the basis for the radar tools and callout automations, and even that cactbot plugin has the entire combat script for everything, and is used to reveal anything that the game client is told in advance for.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Regardless, have you a source or are this statistics pulled from Narnia? Because current estimations based on players who have the Lunar Kamuy puts Tsukiyomi clears at 7%. Savage clears have ranged between 10-20% since Creator. And the unofficial census Lucky Bancho does purposely cuts off his calculations when a tier ends. Therefore, the highest level anyone can have clearing Sigmascape Savage is i370. That 1% applies only towards Ultimate.

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That only means Lucky Bancho theoretically more accurate as they are only counting clears before gear creep sets in. It would be nice if SE posted clear rates for content themselves so we can quit having this argument about clear rates. Right now, I doubt few players have legitimate clears in hard content, be it parser usage, bought carries, or whatever.

Why do I even care? How does someone else cheating themselves affect my ability to play the game? Have you ever been at school or a job where your performance is measured by doing things by the book, and you're near the top of your ability, and then you see the scores posted for other people on your team and you end up at the middle or bottom? Then you're the one that is told to improve, meanwhile the people above you continue to game the grading metric by doing things wrong, and creating more work for other staff to fix their mistakes. I have a real bone to pick with people who insist they aren't cheating, when they absolutely are.

The analogy here is that "the meta" is the result of cheating. The meta doesn't play by the rules the system goes by. It only exists because the game doesn't punish "pushing the work to others", in that post I quoted of yours about tanking, if you turn tank stance off, you are forcing the other players to have to use their enmity reduction if you make a mistake. If you are are a healer, and focusing on DPS, you're forcing the players to use their self-heal, and thus reducing their DPS in the process. The healer DPS doesn't count in the content design, the DPS's DPS does.

If the game's regular content "had more teeth", the healer should never have time to throw Stone/Malefic consecutively, the tank or party should be bleeding enough that taking 5 seconds to throw stone twice would result in the tank or the healer's death without the tank using a CD. Yet on the healer forums we keep seeing players asking for more DPS skills as a healer, because they want to be a green DPS, they do not want to be a healer. The tank, likewise, should lose enmity the second they are out of tank stance, and the fact that doesn't happen shows a large blindspot with how content is designed (the content always assumes the tank is in tank stance.) If they are not in tank stance, they are not "a tank", and the healer should become the primary target of any mob that isn't being targeted. If there's only 3 mobs, you can drop tank stance and the DPS can all deal with one add, and the healer can use party healing without becoming the target. Yet, that's not how the game's logic works. Even in the single player content like the MCH level 50 job quest or the MSQ solo duty where you fight the GC's, where there are belligerent healers present, you the player are not going to fight the belligerent tank first unless they're actively preventing you from getting to the belligerent healer. Those belligerent healers are always casting healing magic because you're damaging the belligerent mob group. If you sit there long enough without doing anything, you might see the belligerent healers cast stone.

The Squadron's even do this. I leveled MCH, MNK and NIN entirely from the squadrons because that was faster than waiting for the DPS queue. You can quite literately, start the dungeon, target a mob group, and tell your squadron to attack, while you sit back and watch. The healer will heal more often, because the mobs die a little slower without your participation, but the Squadron healer has access to all the level 50 role actions and skills of the conjurer, even when they are not in level 50 content. And by having everyone have a level 5 buff, the trash mobs can always be completed without your participation when you're on DPS. What does this tell us about DPS's responsibility? If it wasn't for there being mechanics to bosses, they could probably clear most of the bosses too.

So, what are the issues with current content design?
1) The tank's "tank stance" isn't really mandatory, thus you get blue DPS activity, this is because enmity generation assumes the tank stays in tank stance. If the tank drops tank stance, the enemies should delete the tank from their enmity table. This still allows the tank to do this purposely, but the way it works right now, the tank is getting the benefit of being a tank without being in tank stance. Belligerent mob groups rarely have tanks, and players know to finish them off last because they do less damage to the party and have larger HP pools. Single target bosses pretty much do not need the party tank in tank stance if the rest of the party doesn't generate more enmity than them.
How I'd fix it - leaving tank stance should reset enmity as if the tank was ko'd. After all, there's no longer a tank.

2) The healer doesn't have enough to do, and casting high-enmity healing like Medica II to allow for green DPS activity should rip enmity away from the tank if the tank is not in tank stance. With single-target bosses, this ultimately doesn't have any meaningful use since there is only one target, hence most players just spam Medica II without consideration of the tank. On trash, casting Medica II should always be a mistake, and when the Squadron does it, they always follow it with the enmity dump, but they never cast Medica II the way "the meta" assumes.
How I'd fix it - The most obvious thing to do is remove regen/aspected benefic and medica II/diurnal aspected helios from being skills to actions with CD's. But perhaps a better change would be to put the regen effect entirely on a separate skill so that "the next cure/medica/benefic/helios/physick will add X seconds of regen/shield of potency Y to a maximum of (capped) seconds" and then fold Medica and Medica II into the same skill, and Cure/Cure II into the same skill, and benefic/benefic II into the same skill, and Helios/Aspected Helios into the same skill. For Nocturnal AST's that would swap regen for shield. If you have two WHM, or two AST or one of each, then the regen effect is added instead of overwritten. It would at the very least allow healers to benefit from each other's buffs. There are two pieces of content in the game (both in the MSQ Roulette) where the healer is the better tank, because the boss has no teeth, and by purposely creating enmity from Medica II, all the adds are drawn automatically to the healer.

3) DPS are ultimately allowed to underperform, even in punishing content. The healer and tank should not have time to DPS, they should be performing their role at all times. Which means that if the tank or healer have time to use single target DPS, then all the DPS are underperforming. We already have the gauges, they tell the player what they should be doing, but ultimately there is no imperative to do anything at all. If the tank or healer stops what they're doing, the party would immediately fail. If the DPS stop what they're doing, they can continue to do nothing.
How I'd fix it - Pretty much, as also observed from the squadron content, the fix here really needs to be that the tank and healer DPS be effectively zero relative to DPS contribution. That would not be very fun at all for the tank or healer, so perhaps the mechanic that is needed here is for the mob groups to have their own healers. Thus if the party DPS are under-performing, the belligerent healers will have no problem keeping their group fully healed. The party healer and party tank will not be able to kill the belligerent healer by themselves as the rest of the belligerent party would kill the party healer if the tank tries to drop tank stance to help DPS the belligerent healer.

4) Mobs spawned do nothing until hit or a few seconds. Okay this really needs to ask the question of why. Mobs are always at the disadvantage because the player is always allowed to get the first hit in, thus they can be stunlocked at spawn. What should happen is that hostile mobs should always LoS (Line of Sight) attack players at spawn.
How'd I'd fix it - This is really a problem of latency, sure it might not be fair to players to suddenly be attacked before seeing the mob spawn, but perhaps maybe the spawning process can make sure that the mobs are not spawned within players auto-attack range to prevent that.

5) Trash mobs are generally toothless, and so is their AI. So? Classic JRPG formula is you outgear and outlevel them, you should be able to sneeze on them and they die. The problem here is that levelsync and ilevelsync doesn't actually bring these anywhere close to having teeth. Sure I may have to use a different strategy for the Squadrons to account for the AI doing stupid things like chasing the invulnerable monster around, but the trash mobs, even the Squadron can defeat quickly with only one DPS. What's the point of having the trash mobs if they're not an obstacle? They're just a few road cones to knock over once you hit the sync point. In an experienced party, the tank can do a wall-to-wall pull of them, and they are stupid enough to follow while ranged players can hit them and they ignore it.
How'd I'd fix it - If the tank moves more than 15y away from the mob's spawn point, the mob will lose interest and resets it's enmity, and recovers it's hp completely if there's nobody else on the enmity table. More to the point, to prevent bots from being able to complete dungeons, also reset the mob if they can't hit the target after 5 seconds without a status effect (eg stun) preventing them. If another player lands a hit on a tagged mob without the tank generating enmity, then the mob should defend itself.