Confessions of a Toxic Elitist

Nope, never had performance issues before. Not even when jumping on a new job.
And I don't know what kind of toxic behavior you displayed, but just wanted to pop in here to say

Toxic behavior has nothing to do with how you perform and neither does your performance make you a better or worse person.
(:

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

Anyone using all of their toolkit is a good player at eye's glance. It's the above-average/optimal players that you can't see without a parser

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Yes and no. Using trick attack after everyones opener is good? Just because he use trick attack doesnt mean hes good? Tank waiting for tank busters to pop to even use cooldown when she/he can easily use one between them, depending on fight ofc. Clicking a button is 1 thing, clicking them on the right moment is another.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

Yes and no. Using trick attack after everyones opener is good? Just because he use trick attack doesnt mean hes good? Tank waiting for tank busters to pop to even use cooldown when she/he can easily use one between them, depending on fight ofc. Clicking a button is 1 thing, clicking them on the right moment is another.

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You're right. I should've specified using their toolkit appropriately but I was kind of rushing my earlier post (I was commuting. It's a long story lol). I have more to say but I think I'll leave it at that.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

You're right. I should've specified using their toolkit appropriately but I was kind of rushing my earlier post (I was commuting. It's a long story lol). I have more to say but I think I'll leave it at that.

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No worries, while you wasn't that spesific about it, I would like to add a player who do read their tooltip is far better than those who dont :).

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

First off, @Estellise, I hope you see this, and I am open to your offer. I'll look you up next time I'm logged in and send a request.

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Mhm, feel free to do so! I'm usually on everyday after 6PM EST.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

Sometimes this is true, sometimes its not. What do you classify as good player without a parser?

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You can notice people's rotation by eyeing the skill they're using. If I see a BLM using Fire 2 in a dungeons I'll immediately facedesk myself. You can see BRD's effectively using Foe's, Tanks that mitigate properly and non tank stance big pulls without becoming harder to heal. Many many things. Those perfect party buff timings, good card management, you see Benediction actually being used. Stuff and more stuff.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

I don't see anything about dps from healer in my post. I mention a healer not using the best healing gcd in the game even near end of HW. But please go check my post again where I mention healing dps, like I said you miss the true meaning of elitist. ''Make people cut cutsceene'' doesn't make you elitist. Telling people how to play a class but they aren't even 50% at, is ignorart and elitist. Many of those things you mention are far from elitist vs being a a-hole or just very unpopular things to do/say.
But yeah I'm waiting where you pinpoint that I mentioned healer dps in my post. And why would I look at your lodestone? I have no interest in doing that, again making up things.

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A toxic player would bring up anything to shut down a conversation they don't want to see, and you're still doing it. The context of those old posts were in regard to 2.0 content during 2.0.

The point is,

1. If you use a parser. You are cheating.
2. If you tell someone else to play the game your way or you suck, you're an elitist.

The game is balanced to play the way the developers intended it, and since they changed how all the combat works with 4.x that did, and no doubt still causes players to realize that the way they've been playing is not the most effective way to play. Look at all the crap thrown at the developers for the lily system when it was discovered it doesn't work with their normal minmax strategy.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

op

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So i started a static for this raid tier, after being out of the raid scene since 2.4. Back in those days, I was a super confident PLD and DRG.

Started up the group, and we started with some easier stuff to get into the swing of things. We had some people leave/scheduling issues, so we ended up FINALLY getting started with O5s last week...

Man o man... 29th percentile for DRG DPS on our first clear. And I had put in SO much effort into the opener/rotation/melds/dummy... it was rather jarring (and I was top DPS in the group XD).

I thought i was gunna be an uber badass. And on all other content I played, I was... but this rocked my world a bit. Made me think I was horribad, but then I thought about what I could do to improve (and dug deeper into the logs and realized since im only i354, its a bit skewed).

last night we got a clear and I was at the 43rd percentile (and havent upgraded my gear this week yet). So i feel a bit better but hot damn, alot of work needs to be done.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Look at all the crap thrown at the developers for the lily system when it was discovered it doesn't work with their normal minmax strategy.

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And how did that work out? Good WHM players ignore the lily system entirely. Trying to fish for lilies makes you worse as a WHM. You could remove it from the game entirely today and people wouldn't skip a beat in terms of playing the job.

The trick is that players as a collective spend far, far more time actually playing than the developers do. Developers ignore that collective experience at their peril, lest they design something like the lily system where what they intend people to do and the reality are a country mile apart. Intentions mean very little when compared to what they actually do.

Or, as programmers often lament: "The computer does what I tell it to and not what I want."

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Originally Posted by Tridus

And how did that work out? Good WHM players ignore the lily system entirely. Trying to fish for lilies makes you worse as a WHM. You could remove it from the game entirely today and people wouldn't skip a beat in terms of playing the job.

The trick is that players as a collective spend far, far more time actually playing than the developers do. Developers ignore that collective experience at their peril, lest they design something like the lily system where what they intend people to do and the reality are a country mile apart. Intentions mean very little when compared to what they actually do.

Or, as programmers often lament: "The computer does what I tell it to and not what I want."

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This is true, especially when they have an "identity design" behind it that they use as a way to limit themselves on what they can do.

And then, when people asked for reduced CDs on DRK, they said Reduced CDs are not always a gain

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Originally Posted by Fazraye

Q: The adjustment made to dark knight’s The Blackest Night ability was nice; however the effects of Dark Passenger and Shadow Wall feel low compared to the MP cost and length of the recast time. I would like to see dark knight’s defensive properties expanded.
A: Since the major adjustments to warrior, the development team has received requests to adjust dark knight.

Looking at the usage rates of each job within the tank role, we believe that the balance between them is currently quite even, so we are carefully considering how we should adjust dark knight.

Content is balanced around the recast time of buffs, so a reduction in recast time may not always lead to strengthening the job.

Dark knight is under careful consideration at the moment, so please wait a bit longer.

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Lol.

The ire thrown at the developers for the lily system was well deserved. To be honest, people should still be giving them hell for it, because it is just not good. At all. You can ignore them completely and it won't affect your play in any way whatsoever. Trying to play with the system trips you up more than it helps you. That's pretty garbage design.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

From a legal perspective

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Correct. And they may enforce their own rules to their discretion. That, however, does not make parsers a privacy violation. Hence by response.

I've noticed most people who tend to complain in party chat usually suck anyways. You are most likely low to average playskill. Nothing worth mentioning.

The empty can rattles the most.

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Originally Posted by Worldofwarcraft

I've noticed most people who tend to complain in party chat usually suck anyways. You are most likely low to average playskill. Nothing worth mentioning.

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Ofcourse. The ones calling out people for dying, or for causing them to be dead are usually the ones that havent a clue about what is going on.

I also dont mind people that o that, so long as they acknowledge if they are wrong (belive me, ive been there)

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Originally Posted by Worldofwarcraft

I've noticed most people who tend to complain in party chat usually suck anyways. You are most likely low to average playskill. Nothing worth mentioning.

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It's like how people complain that chain farming on Eureka isn't efficient because it takes too long. But it actually only takes too long because they're doing bad damage.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

A toxic player would bring up anything to shut down a conversation they don't want to see, and you're still doing it. The context of those old posts were in regard to 2.0 content during 2.0.

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You still make up a lot of things here. Where did I say whatever that healer said was from 2xx? This was said last barely under a year ago, from the threads i've been looking at.
Again, making up things.
1: How is using a parser cheating? You have to tell me in very good details how you cheat gameplay with a parser. I'm looking forward for you to explain why it's cheating.
2: I never tell people how to play. There are better ways to play, but exactly my way? I need you to quote me on that. Again, waiting on you for quoting where I mentioned healer dps in my previous post.

They are calling parsing "cheating" because it violates the sanctity of the EULA (lol) and gives you the "advantage" of knowing whether you're putting out garbage DPS or not. Which is more of a failure of the game that anything else, really.

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Originally Posted by zuzu-bq

You can notice people's rotation by eyeing the skill they're using. If I see a BLM using Fire 2 in a dungeons I'll immediately facedesk myself. You can see BRD's effectively using Foe's, Tanks that mitigate properly and non tank stance big pulls without becoming harder to heal. Many many things. Those perfect party buff timings, good card management, you see Benediction actually being used. Stuff and more stuff.

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Wait, what's wrong with BLMs using Fire 2 in dungeons? Genuinely curious. Does the AoE rotation change at 70?

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Originally Posted by IttyBitty

FFlogs is intended for anybody who wants to gauge and improve their performance, savage raiding or no.

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Well, I learned something new today. I thought it was exclusively for savage raiders. Thank you for clearing that up!

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

Wait, what's wrong with BLMs using Fire 2 in dungeons? Genuinely curious. Does the AoE rotation change at 70?

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Once you get Enhanced Hearts by lv68, Fire 2 becomes so weak that it's rarely good. You're better off just double Flare'in most of the situations if not all. It's not something easy to realize and the game won't tell you but the damage difference is huge. Before that even though, Fire 2 is weak and most don't know how many enemies are needed to be stronger than Fire 1 or 4.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

Wait, what's wrong with BLMs using Fire 2 in dungeons? Genuinely curious. Does the AoE rotation change at 70?

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It does, quite a bit. Then Fire 2 becomes something you'll only use on small packs of mobs. I think the poster meant using ONLY fire 2 in dungeons.

Anyway, maybe I have a different definition of someone who is a toxic elitist. To me, they are people who falsely think they're better than everyone else and gloat about it. Not only that, but don't offer to help others, but only complain. If you truly are the best of the best, show it in your actions, not your words.

Nah there are legitimely good players around there that act like that as well. Most of people that do act like that aren't really good though.

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Originally Posted by IttyBitty

They are calling parsing "cheating" because it violates the sanctity of the EULA (lol) and gives you the "advantage" of knowing whether you're putting out garbage DPS or not. Which is more of a failure of the game that anything else, really.

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That, and PS4 users can't use it. You can look at it either as using steroids, sure it may make your cyber muscles better, but it makes you subject to elitist roidrage.

I'll reframe this for people who don't get it:

"If Square-Enix announced they would ban every single person who used a parser in 48 hours before the next content patch, would you try to call their bluff, or are you so dependent on parsing that you don't actually know how to play?"

Because people who start using unauthorized tools to improve their performance over others, sure sounds like cheating to me.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Correct. And they may enforce their own rules to their discretion. That, however, does not make parsers a privacy violation. Hence by response.

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No more than video recording.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

That, and PS4 users can't use it. You can look at it either as using steroids, sure it may make your cyber muscles better, but it makes you subject to elitist roidrage.

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But parsers aren't at all like using steroids, and in no way improve ones performance alone. They allow one access to the data needed to improve performance, sure, but that's like saying practicing at the batting cages is cheating baseball.

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I'll reframe this for people who don't get it:

"If Square-Enix announced they would ban every single person who used a parser in 48 hours before the next content patch, would you try to call their bluff, or are you so dependent on parsing that you don't actually know how to play?"

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I would. It'd be funny, actually, to watch SE annihilate their entire raiding population and then watch the game drown afterward.

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Because people who start using unauthorized tools to improve their performance over others, sure sounds like cheating to me.

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Except the parser itself doesn't improve one's performance. DRG A and DRG B, all else equal, would still perform the same even if DRG A had a parser and DRG B didn't.

EDIT: What follows is what I believe your argument to be: "Parsers improve performance, third party programs that improve performance are cheating, therefore parsers are cheating." It seems pretty sound, and agreeable entirely, but that relies on the first premise, "Parsers improve performance" to be true, which they do not inherently improve performance.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

But parsers aren't at all like using steroids, and in no way improve ones performance alone. They allow one access to the data needed to improve performance, sure, but that's like saying practicing at the batting cages is cheating baseball.

I would. It'd be funny, actually, to watch SE annihilate their entire raiding population and then watch the game drown afterward.

Except the parser itself doesn't improve one's performance. DRG A and DRG B, all else equal, would still perform the same even if DRG A had a parser and DRG B didn't.

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That's just moving the goalposts. Let's try another thought experiment. What if SE started introducing RNG elements that break the parser? Now whatever BiS gear and optimal rotation you have no longer works 100% of the time, if at all.

The entire reason parsing works at all is because there is very little RNG involved in raiding. It's scripted to a point where if you know when something happens, you can be prepared. Now imagine going one step further, and the game remembers you. It somehow knows you're "better" and changes it's strategy knowing YOU are there. Now all these parser-based stats goes into the toilet because it's using the data against you. And SE has already indicated they log all the data needed to do this if they really wanted to, it was revealed as such during the Ungarmax post-mortem.

Edit: I have to say this a lot because people get really defensive. I do not personally care what you do with your own computer, but if you are using a parser to kick people from duties, you're the problem.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

That's just moving the goalposts. Let's try another thought experiment. What if SE started introducing RNG elements that break the parser? Now whatever BiS gear and optimal rotation you have no longer works 100% of the time, if at all.

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The only goalposts that were set were "Parsing improves performance." I answered "No, it does not." Not anymore than looking up a rotation is cheating, because Discord and other third party sites that host these rotations aren't directly sanctioned by SE.

As well, this thought experiment doesn't seem very well thought out. Parsers work by reading the data log and recording its output, and then calculating averages. RNG wouldn't change anything, I wouldn't think, and you could actually find a good chunk of players who would be happy that some gear is BiS for some situations and some is BiS for other situations.

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The entire reason parsing works at all is because there is very little RNG involved in raiding.

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Evidence for this claim?

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It's scripted to a point where if you know when something happens, you can be prepared.

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This has nothing to do with parsing though, this is just fight choreography.

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Now imagine going one step further, and the game remembers you. It somehow knows you're "better" and changes it's strategy knowing YOU are there.

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This is why I say this isn't a well thought out thought experiment. If Square could dynamically affect its fight AI to do this, they'd have access to some very powerful AI and it would make this game's endgame much more fun to be honest.

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Now all these parser-based stats goes into the toilet because it's using the data against you.

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Again, you might find some people who would prefer that to what we have now--fights which dynamically shift and adapt to the party rather than a strictly choreographed dance.

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And SE has already indicated they log all the data needed to do this if they really wanted to, it was revealed as such during the Ungarmax post-mortem.

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Yes, but the issue is the data is in post--it needs to be processed. And that's an after-the-fact kind of thing.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

would you try to call their bluff, or are you so dependent on parsing that you don't actually know how to play?"

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So if someone who uses a parser closes the program...they suddenly forget how to play the game and their job/role?

Okay....

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

That's just moving the goalposts. Let's try another thought experiment. What if SE started introducing RNG elements that break the parser? Now whatever BiS gear and optimal rotation you have no longer works 100% of the time, if at all.

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Do you even play this game's group combat content?

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

I have to say this a lot because people get really defensive. I do not personally care what you do with your own computer, but if you are using a parser to kick people from duties, you're the problem.

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I'll kick anyone that is underperforming, and you can notice when someone is doing so without any third parties.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Evidence for this claim?

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Do any raid, and wait for someone to complain about others not doing the mechanics.

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Originally Posted by zuzu-bq

Do you even play this game's group combat content?

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Why yes I do.

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Originally Posted by zuzu-bq

I'll kick anyone that is underperforming, and you can notice when someone is doing so without any third parties.

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Only if they are intentionally being awful.

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Originally Posted by Miste

So if someone who uses a parser closes the program...they suddenly forget how to play the game and their job/role?

Okay....

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If they are dependent on using it to know anything about the state of the fight, then yes, they don't actually know how to play the game, they are simply reacting to the parser.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

That's just moving the goalposts. Let's try another thought experiment. What if SE started introducing RNG elements that break the parser? Now whatever BiS gear and optimal rotation you have no longer works 100% of the time, if at all.

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That wouldn't break the parser. The parser just reports what the server tells the client is happening. Nothing more. The only way to "break the parser" like that is to have the server LIE to the client about what's happening, which would have the rather unfortunate side effect of having what the player sees and what's happening be different.

That would make any kind of high level play impossible because the game would effectively be randomized. Push buttons, stuff might happen. Who knows what? That's not how real games work.

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The entire reason parsing works at all is because there is very little RNG involved in raiding.

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No, they work because certain skills always do certain things under set conditions. That means there's an optimal rotation. Parsers help you find it and see how effective you are. That's it.

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It's scripted to a point where if you know when something happens, you can be prepared.

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You don't need a parser to do that if you can record the fight and learn the moves. Better ban Twitch, Youtube, every PC, and the "Share" button on the PS4!

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Now imagine going one step further, and the game remembers you. It somehow knows you're "better" and changes it's strategy knowing YOU are there. Now all these parser-based stats goes into the toilet because it's using the data against you.

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People who like a challenge would welcome that. The lower end of the playerbase would quickly get unhappy if they learned a fight and then suddenly the fight changed, though. I don't think it'd have the effect you think it would.

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And SE has already indicated they log all the data needed to do this if they really wanted to, it was revealed as such during the Ungarmax post-mortem.

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They can tell when people use something on the server end. Going from there to making dynamic adaptive fights that aren't wildly imbalanced or effectively just random stuff happening is quite a leap on a technical level.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

That's just moving the goalposts. Let's try another thought experiment. What if SE started introducing RNG elements that break the parser? Now whatever BiS gear and optimal rotation you have no longer works 100% of the time, if at all.

The entire reason parsing works at all is because there is very little RNG involved in raiding. It's scripted to a point where if you know when something happens, you can be prepared. Now imagine going one step further, and the game remembers you. It somehow knows you're "better" and changes it's strategy knowing YOU are there. Now all these parser-based stats goes into the toilet because it's using the data against you. And SE has already indicated they log all the data needed to do this if they really wanted to, it was revealed as such during the Ungarmax post-mortem.

Edit: I have to say this a lot because people get really defensive. I do not personally care what you do with your own computer, but if you are using a parser to kick people from duties, you're the problem.

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Uh... what? As per usual, you speak of things you have precisely zero understanding of. ACT literally just reads the battle logs. Fights could be randomized a thousand different ways and provided numbers remain posted in chat, ACT will relay that information to the play. It essentially functions as a real-time calculator as players themselves could perform such a task themselves. In fact, some hardcore groups back in a ARR did as FFlogs didn't exist yet.

Kicking people based on parsers is no different than if I required everyone who joined my party to be a Miqo'te and kicked whoever wasn't. The party leader or majority vote make the rules. The only caveat SE imposes is we not publicly shame players by posting numbers.

Just like your White Mage nonsense months ago, you have no idea what you're talking about.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

If they are dependent on using it to know anything about the state of the fight, then yes, they don't actually know how to play the game, they are simply reacting to the parser.

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It sounds as if you're conflating parsing numbers and triggers. Only the latter calls out mechanics for you. Parsing numbers is simply what I said above and has no bearing whatsoever on mechanics.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Do any raid, and wait for someone to complain about others not doing the mechanics.

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That's because people aren't doing the mechanics, and getting themselves or others killed and putting the victory of the run in jeopardy. That has nothing to do with messing up the parser's recording; it will still work perfectly fine.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Do any raid, and wait for someone to complain about others not doing the mechanics.

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I would love to see your explanation as to why "Why are you not dodging the splat?" leads to "adding RNG would break parsing".

Because at this point, given the many ridiculous things you have said, I don't think you know what a parser actually is.

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If they are dependent on using it to know anything about the state of the fight, then yes, they don't actually know how to play the game, they are simply reacting to the parser.

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Wait nevermind you don't have to bother, you've already sealed the deal.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

The only way to "break the parser" like that is to have the server LIE to the client about what's happening, which would have the rather unfortunate side effect of having what the player sees and what's happening be different.

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Don't we already have that though...just not intentional? Or is it? :thinking:

So I've been avoiding the forums all day for personal reasons, but the recent posts have come to my attention and I'm wondering how this thread turned into a debate over parsers.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

So I've been avoiding the forums all day for personal reasons, but the recent posts have come to my attention and I'm wondering how this thread turned into a debate over parsers.

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Because logs had been mentioned and logs are the root of all evil, apparently. Sorry bud. Hope you're feeling better.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

So I've been avoiding the forums all day for personal reasons, but the recent posts have come to my attention and I'm wondering how this thread turned into a debate over parsers.

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The same reason I go to the forums: certain people go to any thread and randomly start talking down to the elitists which usually aren't even involved at all and how they're ruining the game with all their toxicity, parsing, and/or speedrunning. And of course there are those people, I'm sometimes guilty of being one of them, who just can't let that fly and start off by trying to simply explain how the former person is incorrect and then you know that person just won't have any of it and, despite all logic and reasoning, will continue their rant and it just goes downhill from there.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

That wouldn't break the parser. The parser just reports what the server tells the client is happening. Nothing more. The only way to "break the parser" like that is to have the server LIE to the client about what's happening, which would have the rather unfortunate side effect of having what the player sees and what's happening be different.

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Not necessarily. The game client can be told "hit for 0.xxx%" using relative numbers, and that provides a much less useful metric to parsing. People want to see big numbers pop. Get rid of all the numbers, and people will cry about it.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

That would make any kind of high level play impossible because the game would effectively be randomized. Push buttons, stuff might happen. Who knows what? That's not how real games work.

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No, that's just how crappy thoughtless games work. What makes this game fun is that the battle choreography tends to happen at a pace you can't just load into a macro and "press x to win", but at the same time, it does change strategies when HP reaches certain points.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

No, they work because certain skills always do certain things under set conditions. That means there's an optimal rotation. Parsers help you find it and see how effective you are. That's it.

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Thus making people go "BiS gear, One true Rotation, git gud" , if this information was unable to be discovered with an unauthorized tool, people would, *shock* have to do trial and error. Hence usage of the tool is cheating.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

You don't need a parser to do that if you can record the fight and learn the moves. Better ban Twitch, Youtube, every PC, and the "Share" button on the PS4!

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Oh don't be ridiculous, Square Enix has said that you can record the video subject to the Materials use license. Plus they now have the Duty Recorder, which to me seems like a better idea.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

People who like a challenge would welcome that. The lower end of the playerbase would quickly get unhappy if they learned a fight and then suddenly the fight changed, though. I don't think it'd have the effect you think it would.

They can tell when people use something on the server end. Going from there to making dynamic adaptive fights that aren't wildly imbalanced or effectively just random stuff happening is quite a leap on a technical level.

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If I was developing the game, I would be tempted to make the fights change by doing 50%/35%/15%. 50% of the "underperforming" players get the regular duty, as it was designed. 35% of the players that are "better than most" but not the top, get an adaptive version of the same content that activates when any of the players are in a duty, and the top 15% of the players get a version of the content that adapts specifically to their strategy.

So an Adaptive version of the content, would change the order and speed of the dungeon encounters, but otherwise the strategies remain mostly the same (otherwise it may lead to exploits.) The "vendetta" version would identify what strategy the player uses, and explicitly break it by reacting to those rotations rather than then their own choreography schedule. Tank switches out of tank stance, tank buster, healer dps, tank buster, healer overhealing, spawn more adds, adds defeated too quickly, spawn twice as many. etc.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Uh... what? As per usual, you speak of things you have precisely zero understanding of.

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Nah, I know how all the unauthorized software crap works because that is my pet peeve with MMO's. People using cheating tools, people botting, and people being assholes to others by using those tools. With this game it's parsers, with Mabinogi it was game mods that showed the combat power (a hidden number), and that mod lead to all kinds of cheats being introduced. Cheaters like to brag about having an advantage over others, thus they are easily caught out.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

If they are dependent on using it to know anything about the state of the fight, then yes, they don't actually know how to play the game, they are simply reacting to the parser.

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You do understand that "parsing" means how much damage you are doing in numbers right? It's just numbers.

How do you react to the fight based on just numbers on a screen?

I mean...if someone was parsing they look over to see what numbers they are doing...

Say it is "4976"....

How does "4976" somehow magically make you know the fight or mechanics and how to do them?

If you can't see "4976" if you are not parsing then how would that make you forget how to play?

Sorry, but I have to echo Bourne here...you simply don't understand what you are talking about.