Why the hate with endgame fights?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Just based on your post history, you...

- Despise Savage and raiding in general
- Dislike EX Primals
- Dislike Tomestone gearing (Not that I entirely blame you here)
- Dislike PvP
- Dislike gear progression or its alternatives (Savage, PvP)
- Dislike 24 Mans
- Like Diadem

What do you actually enjoy about this game? Seriously. I have only ever seen you bitch and moan about everything yet you'll be among the first to jump into a parse or Savage thread and cite how toxic raiders are. You'll, of course, omit the fact you don't actually participate in that content. Your entire stance can be summarized to "I only want content I like. Everything is a waste of resources!!" And you'll promptly prattle on about concepts you have no idea about as Sebazy as so eloquently demonstrated. So instead of telling everyone else to stop complaining; to find another game. How about you take your own advice?

---

You forgot to add the community to that list.

Usually, I have an issue when someone says "why are you still playing this game?" because its usually used in an over-exaggerated manner in response to someone disliking ONE thing about the game.

But Riyah just...seems to hate everything.

EDIT: oh. Except Diadem.


I think.

I agree in regards to the lack of learning curve. In 2.0, there were a few dungeons that posed some problems. Now, with overgearing, even thats gone. Had Sastasha for leveling roulette last week, had a brand new tank, first dungeon run. ME and the other dps were helping him out. Healer didn't want to wait and ran ahead pulling things. Since you don't really need a tank in that dungeon, the tank learned very little.

While I'd like to see some content that ramps up the challenge towards savage, would it work? The community is all about rush rush rush. Harder content means things will take longer and some groups might wipe. Seeing as the community is intolerant of such things, people would leave. People instant leave aurum vale. They left Pharo Sirius before that got nerfed.

One thing I'd like to see is a rework of normal mode raids. For this raid tier we had:
omega normal - 320 gear
tomes - 330 gear
savage - 340 gear.

If they want to keep 4 man dungeons as easy as they are now, then swap the tome and normal raids so tomes give 320 gear, then kick up difficulty on normal mode raids a notch and have it drop 330 gear.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

- Like Diadem

---

Is that even possible?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brill_

If they want to keep 4 man dungeons as easy as they are now, then swap the tome and normal raids so tomes give 320 gear, then kick up difficulty on normal mode raids a notch and have it drop 330 gear.

---

Wouldn't that defeat the idea of having the normal difficulty raids so people can enjoy the story?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jameseoakes

Wouldn't that defeat the idea of having the normal difficulty raids so people can enjoy the story?

---

Well, since the entirety of the 8-man normal story occurs outside of the actual duty, I don’t see that being a problem. The 8-mans aren’t like Coil anymore; all story occurs before the instance, or after. There are no lengthy cutscenes during them. So them dropping higher ilvl gear from the tomestones won’t affect those who want to view the story.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SenorPatty

You forgot to add the community to that list.

Usually, I have an issue when someone says "why are you still playing this game?" because its usually used in an over-exaggerated manner in response to someone disliking ONE thing about the game.

But Riyah just...seems to hate everything.

EDIT: oh. Except Diadem.


I think.

---

You're right!

Mockery aside, I normally feel the same. I just can't understand why Riyah bothers to continue playing since there doesn't seem to be anything she likes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jameseoakes

Wouldn't that defeat the idea of having the normal difficulty raids so people can enjoy the story?

---

Why can't people who want to progress the story actually have to earn it? Normal doesn't need to be bleeding edge difficult, but I don't think it's too much to ask the supposed "world ending boss" not roll over in five minutes.

I want the sense of danger in dungeons, so I have been thinking about one mechanic to make a hard move dungeon feel truly hard. You know, since I haven't really posted specifics. Anybody remember in most ff games, there are enemies capable of stealing from you?

See where I'm going with this?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaivaC

I want the sense of danger in dungeons, so I have been thinking about one mechanic to make a hard move dungeon feel truly hard. You know, since I haven't really posted specifics. Anybody remember in most ff games, there are enemies capable of stealing from you?

See where I'm going with this?

---

I do but iirc, the items were insignificant consumables like potions. But that's only from what I remember.

If you want some real danger though, you could always frog-lock yourself in FF7. Good times lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SenorPatty

I do but iirc, the items were insignificant consumables like potions. But that's only from what I remember.

If you want some real danger though, you could always frog-lock yourself in FF7. Good times lol.

---

If this were reddit, I'd probably get downvoted to hell, but I've actually never played FF7. Of all the main titles, I completely missed out on all Final Fantasy titles before FF8 - that was my first FF.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaivaC

If this were reddit, I'd probably get downvoted to hell, but I've actually never played FF7. Of all the main titles, I completely missed out on all Final Fantasy titles before FF8 - that was my first FF.

---

That's fine. I actually have not played FF 1-3 and 5 and while I'm aware FF7 is an incredibly popular FF game amongst them all, I barely bat an eye when I hear someone hasn't played it.

If anything, today the only reason I would recommend anyone to play FF7 is just so I can shamelessly promote one of its compilation game: Crisis Core. Imo, its the best FF7 game out of them all.


But look at me ramble on. Here's an idea of what it looks like. (You can watch the whole thing if you want but if you want to avoid any form of spoilers, stop at 1:21)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8EfMTiOtb0

play what you want, and disregard the rest. No one is forced to play this content. If you feel this game doesn’t have enough for you to play outside of the hard content in the game, then find another game.


Why waste your time arguing on here?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RaijinSupreme

play what you want, and disregard the rest. No one is forced to play this content. If you feel this game doesn’t have enough for you to play outside of the hard content in the game, then find another game.


Why waste your time arguing on here?

---

I am honestly tired of that comment. 'Find another game'. What good is that comment? A comment like this literally misses the point of this thread and completely disregards the ongoing discussion that we've been having here.

I like the story, and I like some people in game. I like crafting and gathering on occasion, and I like being able to do various things without pressure as well as without serious group investment or reliance on pop timers.I like not beign forced to constantly farm gil for basic tasks. I liked diadem because emergency missions were fun, and it led to communal gathering as well as people actually interacting in an open world zone.

My anger is mostly because of three things.

-bad endgame content focusing on one hit kills and repeating single boss fights over and over.
-how stupid the community is about wanting stuff harder and harder despite how much that failed in HW.
-SE not changing the formula in one bit from HW in terms of endgame content.

The middle one annoys me the most because people who want it tend to be the least affected by it, and are wanting to control how other people play over wanting it for themselves. And its dumb because its not a case of "we're so bad we fail casual content and make it a pain," but because "i want people to be better at farm parties." I do trial orulette a lot, and i see how players react to shinryu hard's spike in difficulty. it isn't pretty, and even when overgeared for it they struggle. But the community thinks its so easy and they probably never even think what hard content means.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

I like the story, and I like some people in game. I like crafting and gathering on occasion, and I like being able to do various things without pressure as well as without serious group investment or reliance on pop timers.I like not beign forced to constantly farm gil for basic tasks. I liked diadem because emergency missions were fun, and it led to communal gathering as well as people actually interacting in an open world zone.

My anger is mostly because of three things.

-bad endgame content focusing on one hit kills and repeating single boss fights over and over.
-how stupid the community is about wanting stuff harder and harder despite how much that failed in HW.

---

Example, outside of Gordias. Because eventually, that was fixed by the devs. The thing is, myself, Sebazy, and others have all given prime examples of what we would like to see. But for whatever reason, you are not acknowledging our points. It's like you are stubbornly holding onto this notion that we have been suggesting that the difficulty needs to be immediately tuned way up, when we have merely been saying gradually increase the difficulty. I myself have said multiple times, increase difficulty, not with harder hitting mobs or more mobs, but with introduction of mechanics normally seen in savage fights. That does not mean, say in Fractal Continuum Hard Mode, the mobs need to drop our HP to 1 with Charbydis.

The normal mode boss uses charybidis too yeesh. The difference is the follow up attack does 6k damage instead of 14k. They already use a lot of mechanics in general, you guys dont seem to get the big difference is that they one shot you and that they have an enrage. thats it. Literally thats it, virtually every normal mode fight uses a lot of mechanics, but they don't kill you so people complain, except for a few add phases. Some even do kill you; midas normal height correction does that for example. They can't add much more; without turning it into intro ex level content.

No one seems to get this. The only way you can make a mechanic hard is if failing it kills you, or if it will kill the whole party unless quick action is done. So when people talk about increasing difficulty, they tend to just be abstract about it. Especially when they say the one content that actually does this, shin hard, is still very easy.

if you want to seriously think about this, take one dungeon boss 60 and up, and tell me how you will make it harder. Like take the mol at the end of bardem's mettle. How will you make him gradually harder?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaivaC

I myself have said multiple times, increase difficulty, not with harder hitting mobs or more mobs, but with introduction of mechanics normally seen in savage fights. That does not mean, say in Fractal Continuum Hard Mode, the mobs need to drop our HP to 1 with Charbydis.

---

But aren't a lot of savage mechanics already seen in casual content? That's what the normal mode raid is: an easy version displaying some mechanics which are present on the savage version. And some mechanics not shown in the normal mode fight carry over from previous expansions or tiers.

For example: Charybdis is displayed in O1, so players should know that mechanic when stepping into O1S and O4S. Earth Shakers is an old mechanic which is recycled for Shinryu normal and extreme, then reused once again in O4S. Shared tank buster is a mechanic used in O1, O1S, O4S, Shinryu normal and Shinryu ex. The dice mechanic is shown during the Ozma fight (iirc), then Susex, then O4S.

There is plenty of repetition of mechanics already and I for one don't want savage and extremes to be just a mixture of mechanics I've already seen. There has to also be new things in there to challenge players and keep things interesting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

The normal mode boss uses charybidis too yeesh. The difference is the follow up attack does 6k damage instead of 14k. They already use a lot of mechanics in general, you guys dont seem to get the big difference is that they one shot you and that they have an enrage. thats it. Literally thats it, virtually every normal mode fight uses a lot of mechanics, but they don't kill you so people complain, except for a few add phases. Some even do kill you; midas normal height correction does that for example. They can't add much more; without turning it into intro ex level content.

No one seems to get this. The only way you can make a mechanic hard is if failing it kills you, or if it will kill the whole party unless quick action is done. So when people talk about increasing difficulty, they tend to just be abstract about it. Especially when they say the one content that actually does this, shin hard, is still very easy.

if you want to seriously think about this, take one dungeon boss 60 and up, and tell me how you will make it harder. Like take the mol at the end of bardem's mettle. How will you make him gradually harder?

---

For the most part, I feel that the dungeon bosses are fine. I don't have any particular issues with most dungeon bosses as I feel they are in a fairly good spot. But, the issue is with the dungeons and the mobs themselves - the latter part which I have personally touched on repeatedly. Tone down the number of mobs and start giving them unique mechanics. Like I said before, after level 50, dungeons start turning into grab mobs and AOE them down. There's no challenge in that aside from big heals and mitigation. That does a terrible job at preparing players for high-end content, if they so choose to go for those fights.

If you look for it, you can find few savage mechanics found in dungeons...certainly not enough to prepare players for endgame because, again, an overwhelming amount of dungeons amount of tank grabbing mobs and everybody AOE them down.

Take a look at Pharos Sirius and the Aurum Vale. Those dungeons punished you for trying to faceroll them in the DF. They didn't one-shot you, although the possibility of that happening was high depending on what the party was doing wrong. This is ideally what Hard Mode should feel like. You know...actually hard. If they aren't tied into the MSQ, they should start to feel hard.

I dunno how many different variations I can give about how dungeons could prepare players, only for you to turn around and say the same thing again. Stop taking things to the extremes - you don't have to one-shot players in dungeons just to tune up the difficulty. The devs just need to stop being complacent and throwing in mobs related to the dungeon and giving players the script of 'Pull, AOE, Pull, AOE'. Why is there not a middle ground with you? That's what I really want to know. Why is it 'it's either this or that' with you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reinha

But aren't a lot of savage mechanics already seen in casual content? That's what the normal mode raid is: an easy version displaying some mechanics which are present on the savage version. And some mechanics not shown in the normal mode fight carry over from previous expansions or tiers.

For example: Charybdis is displayed in O1, so players should know that mechanic when stepping into O1S and O4S. Earth Shakers is an old mechanic which is recycled for Shinryu normal and extreme, then reused once again in O4S. Shared tank buster is a mechanic used in O1, O1S, O4S, Shinryu normal and Shinryu ex. The dice mechanic is shown during the Ozma fight (iirc), then Susex, then O4S.

There is plenty of repetition of mechanics already and I for one don't want savage and extremes to be just a mixture of mechanics I've already seen. There has to also be new things in there to challenge players and keep things interesting.

---

Charbydis varies wildly depending on what boss is casting it. For example, a Behemoth Charbydis is just a large tornado. So no...they tend to not be the same thing. In some forms, there are watered down Savage mechanics, but nothing to really remember as these mechanics tend to pop up in a different expansion. Akh Morn for example. How you handle that mechanic with Niddhog is fairly different from how you handle it with Shinryu.

I do agree about seeing new mechanics and not rehashed versions of them. I thought O2S and O3S did well to shake up the formula, especially O3S...I don't recall fighting a boss that made you perform the way she did. Also, I wouldn't suggest that mobs get the SB version of Charbydis...with auto-attacks, it could kill a run very quickly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaivaC

Why is there not a middle ground with you? That's what I really want to know. Why is it 'it's either this or that' with you?

---

Because you can't make people better at a boss endgame by reducing the number of trash and making you burn one down at a time to prevent them exploding or paralyzing you. The difficulty in savage is mostly due to a handful of things that can't be introduced gradually; its too binary for the most part because if you can survive an attack you can be topped to full in seconds, and even if you don't, you can be insta raised with only a stat penalty. There's very little middle ground in this game that can be translated into casual play to make people better beyond what they have.

If you want to be good at savage, you need to do mechanics perfectly while maintaining high DPS. There's no gradual way to do this, you study the encounter and repeat it over and over till its second nature, because each failure is a death and increases the chance of needing to start over. The only way to make people better at this in lower level content is to replicate it. If you make the attacks survivable, it doesn't teach you how to do savage, because the whole point of it is that the attacks now one shot you if you screw up and the fight is tuned to prevent you from doing this too much.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaivaC

Charbydis varies wildly depending on what boss is casting it. For example, a Behemoth Charbydis is just a large tornado. So no...they tend to not be the same thing. In some forms, there are watered down Savage mechanics, but nothing to really remember as these mechanics tend to pop up in a different expansion. Akh Morn for example. How you handle that mechanic with Niddhog is fairly different from how you handle it with Shinryu.

I do agree about seeing new mechanics and not rehashed versions of them. I thought O2S and O3S did well to shake up the formula, especially O3S...I don't recall fighting a boss that made you perform the way she did. Also, I wouldn't suggest that mobs get the SB version of Charbydis...with auto-attacks, it could kill a run very quickly.

---

There is variation between expansions but the Charybdis in O1 is the same as in O1S. Akh Morn in Shinryu normal is the same as in the extreme mode (although less damaging). We already get to see some mechanics in normal modes of the same bosses and even get visual ground indicators to learn to dodge better (Clamp, Earth Shakers, Icicles). If we assume the normal modes aren't enough to train players for savage/extreme, I don't see how dungeon trash is going to do it any better. The idea of harder trash is appealing to me after doing high PotD floors but it's not the same as fighting a boss and it will never train people for boss fights as well as the normal versions of those bosses.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

if you want to seriously think about this, take one dungeon boss 60 and up, and tell me how you will make it harder. Like take the mol at the end of bardem's mettle. How will you make him gradually harder?

---

Palace of the Dead

Floors 120+ disapprove your entire stance. Only a few mechanics one-shot yet most, if not all, can be interrupted in some manner or another. Wait, crowd control abilities being useful? Whoever would have thought!

What higher floors of PotD does reinforce is tanks requiring proper cooldown usage, healers to actually heal and for DPS to focus on specific targets lest they trigger a high damaging AoE. Compare that to Kugane Castle, where the boss mechanics are so minuscule, you can literally ignore everything. Yojimbo doesn't even do 50% of your HP if you ignore the coins he tosses around. Try that back when Stone Vigil normal was relevant and you'd likely have wiped the party. Why do tanks have to pull 10+ mobs to actually feel like tanks? If I go into Bardem's Mettle and do single pulls, the healer may as well have a red icon because they'll never cast a single heal. I've tested just how pitiful dungeons are. A while back, I played "ignore the tank" in Great Gubal. I didn't cast a single heal—not even Regen—until the mega pull. Had I not been DPSing, I would have been completely useless.

Shinryu Normal is perfectly fine. The issue is nothing scales from it. Every boss, Hashmal included, are easier from Rabanastre. Susano/Lakshmi EX are debatably harder and all of Omega normal rolls over. Has it ever occurred to you the reason people struggled with Shinryu and its EX counterpart is because nothing prepared people for the sudden spike? Many of us claim the former isn't difficult because he really isn't. He just demands you actually pay attention to mechanics, which is how all content outside maybe side story stuff, should be. If the majority of content allows people to ignore mechanics, they'll continue to do so until the game presents a sudden wall where everything they have done prior stops working. You want an example of scaling difficulty?

Ravana - > Sophia -> Nidhogg - > Sephirot - > Thordan

Done in that order you begin with a reasonable yet not overly challenging entry Primal, move onto one that prioritizes mechanical awareness to one that deals high damage into one combining the prior two and finishing off with a bit of everything. Despite being easier, Ravana still demands you respect his mechanics until you start to outgear him. Sophia may not be a big step above him, but she reinforces the need to pay attention. That is how you scale difficulty. It doesn't always come in a direct buff to outgoing damage. Now compare Susano and Lakshmi to Shinryu. The gap between them is enormous.

I also find it odd you seem to have all the answers while we simply "don't get it." Where are your Savage clears? How do you know so much about the differences yet have no experience to back up such an opinion?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Palace of the Dead

Floors 120+ disapprove your entire stance.

---

Those bosses are easy, the issue with 120+ that wipes you is random adds on the floor there. If you go in with a 4 man party with an actual healer, every boss is trivial for the most part after a few tries. The trash there is just tuned that you can't take more than one easily if at all, and the stupid mode literally forces you to take an hour or two in between tries because of the inability to continue from the same floor.

Quote:

---

I also find it odd you seem to have all the answers while we simply "don't get it." Where are your Savage clears? How do you know so much about the differences yet have no experience to back up such an opinion?

---

Because the mode is understandable, its just a matter of whether or not you want to do it with the lack of incentives it offers. If you try any hard content at all you see the difference right away, and i have done enough overall to evaluate it; i just don't do pure savage often over stuff like coil or ex trials, and I hate farming content. That doesn't mean its this mystical crap that only people who complete it know; you can watch a video and have the whole fight laid out in a timeline for you. if you did coil and pay attention about it, you get how mechanics work at a hard level; after that its whether or not its something you like to do or want to do.

But a lot of you don't understand casual content at all. Not enough to understand what increasing difficulty means. I know what I need to do when I get into savage, and Im tempted to clear sometimes just to shut up the forum scrubs who think its some kind of achievement. But I don't think you get what making stuff harder means to the playerbase.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Those bosses are easy, the issue with 120+ that wipes you is random adds on the floor there. If you go in with a 4 man party with an actual healer, every boss is trivial for the most part after a few tries. The trash there is just tuned that you can't take more than one easily if at all, and the stupid mode literally forces you to take an hour or two in between tries because of the inability to continue from the same floor.

---

The fact you can wipe to random adds gives PotD a leg up on dungeons, where you have to be AFK to wipe on a pack with six mobs or less. It's almost like you actually to... wait for it now: pay attention! A novel concept, I know, but considering how dungeons and normal mode trials for the most part scarcely require a pulse. It's a small start. Regardless, that is only the foundation with which you build on. For dungeon specific examples, The Vault comes to mind. Even most leveling dungeons are relatively fine, though I wish they reinforced not tanking the entire room better. It's the "Expert" variation that falls apart. Doma Castle shouldn't be harder than Kugane Castle yet the former laughs at its supposed "Expert" counterpart.

It doesn't really matter since no other endgame relies on you managing trash mobs so much, and this game gimps you in terms of crowd control so you don't even have the tools to do it beyond a certain point; if you get three roaming mobs in the hallways at that level, that's often it. If they want to make that more of an endgame, they'd need to get rid of mob cc resistance and change many of the jobs not to be focused on single target boss fighting with minor adds. The skills dont translate. Like there is no concept of staging mobs in this game; if you get three adds past the low levels, you need to aoe all three or burn one at time, because crowd control moves simply don't work on them. There is no real offtanking on any mob that hits hard enough; most mobs cut through dps HP like butter. POTD doesn't let you kite stuff. there's no real tactical gameplay like this except at a basic level.

As for expert stuff, no one is forced to do it. You can make it harder if you like, but the harder it gets, the less appealing it is to do. Feast is much harder than frontlines to do well in, and teaches you more about pvp I feel, but that same hardness makes it not attractive to many people. You'd have to force people to do it if the aim is to learn.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

snip

---

Pretty sure I have literally said before that Omega Savage is my very first Savage content...

You can talk about timelines all you want, and start saying that you have a fight completely laid down...but I'd like to see you roll up into O3S and do it. Hell, just because at this point I want you prove that your point even has any merits, I'll even go into the same party with you. Because I can assure you that while some mechanics carry over into O3S from her normal fight, the full fight itself is a completely different beast. We know what we're asking when we say increasing difficulty. Once again, you pretty much disregard some of the suggestions I have made, and then countered with yet another extreme example.

There are plenty of things in Savage that could be introduced gradually. ...At this point, I'm not going to bother with an example because really, if you're just going to keep disregarding suggestions, then I'm just talking to blind eyes. If you're in a farm/parse party, then yes, you will need to maintain high DPS while playing at near-perfect levels because it is more efficient. You don't need super high DPS to clear O1S - O3S. You can clear with mediocre performance. I've been in plenty of parties where there were multiple deaths in all three of those fights, and we cleared with enough time (Shinryu Ex is a little bit of an exception because that last phase is a hard DPS check...it becomes either he dies or you die in the next 45 seconds or so).

Why do yall keep going baack and forth and baaack and forth and BACCK AND forth with this person, trying to prove to one.....ONE person the validity of savage content???

Let’s simply look at the facts here.

Regardless of any one person's dissenting opinion, savage content has been a complete success in this game, even to the point that devs felt it was necessary to create a fight that’s harder than savage content. Its existence has already been proven worthy and welcomed, and it isn’t going anywhere anytime soon.

If she don’t like it, she don’t have to, and not a single essay that you write to her is going to change her opinion, or force her to stop giving her opinion, and at this point, y’all are just going in circles.

So instead of spending hours upon hours with her, try talking to someone who’s actually willing to listen to what you guys have to say.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Im tempted to clear sometimes just to shut up the forum scrubs who think its some kind of achievement.

---

Why do you always get so personal about everything?

Are you really going to act all condescending again? You're talking as if you care so much about the player-base and what difficulty will do for them and how badly it will effect them, but then you step all over that same player-base and say "Savage isn't an achievement, you're not good at this game." ????
Oh wait, I'm sorry, you're still convinced that raiders exist on this echelon above normal humans and can't possibly understand them. We're not part of the player-base. How convenient for your argument.

Stop pretending you care about anyone but yourself when you make these posts.


It also has nothing to do with "achievement," it's just that it gets tiring for a lot of us, even those who haven't cleared Savage, to see you constantly go on and on about how easy it is, talk crap about it or ultimate, constantly assert they "know," how raiders act or what they want or "don't get." Someone who hasn't even spent a minute in a relevant raid tier clearing the content in a static or a PUG constantly talking down to people who actually took time and effort to gather seven others to run content with them. You look down on and talk so condescendingly to people who are even running Savage for their first tier or time, never having cleared a leg of Alexander or Coil when they were relevant.

Everything you say is brought about by ignorance and your own arrogance to constantly self-assert yourself under the guise of "but the player-base." Your horrible attitude insults those that play this game and attempt to do their best, regardless of level of skill or whether or not they are truly "raiders" in your eye. You always seem to ignore questions that are blatantly inconvenient for you, and you also ignore posters who do not fit your criteria of "raider," yet still disagree with you because even they can see how utterly close-minded you are.

tl;dr

Please go complete the Sigmascape Savage 1 through 4 next tier, I'd love to see it. Make sure to complete Ultimate too, that way you can really show everyone who's boss.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RaijinSupreme

Why do yall keep going baack and forth and baaack and forth and BACCK AND forth with this person, trying to prove to one.....ONE person the validity of savage content???

---

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I agree with you but I greatly dislike arrogance from people who can't put their money where their mouth is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RaijinSupreme

Why do yall keep going

---

Probably similar reason you felt the need to ask this question, a similar reason she keeps replying and a similar reason you felt the need to convince people to ignore Riyah. Nothing will change but there is that urge to keep posting on the off-chance something changes someone's mind.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

But a lot of you don't understand casual content at all. Not enough to understand what increasing difficulty means. I know what I need to do when I get into savage, and Im tempted to clear sometimes just to shut up the forum scrubs who think its some kind of achievement.

---

Remember kids, it's pro-parsers who are the elitist jerks who look down on how others play the game. It's the raiders who turn up their noses at how others play and enjoy the game. Surely if some anti-parser non-raider went and beat savage, all of those forum scrubs would shut up. Maybe someone who really understood what casual content is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Remember kids, it's pro-parsers who are the elitist jerks who look down on how others play the game. It's the raiders who turn up their noses at how others play and enjoy the game. Surely if some anti-parser non-raider went and beat savage, all of those forum scrubs would shut up. Maybe someone who really understood what casual content is.

---

Im not the one who harps on savage needing to be made easier, and i said that because i'm annoyed at how i can make serious arguments about how difficulty might affect the playerbase in harmful ways and end up talking to a brick wall who doesn't get PEOPLE QUIT OVER THIS. And i don't care about how raiders need to justify their not toxicness, i'm also annoyed because everytime they talk on forums, they always are talking crap about how easy the game is and how they HAVE to change it for whatever reason, whether its forcing parsers and the whole fflogs culture on the playerbase, or upping casual content's difficulty despite the game actually working; raiders can do savage and others don't need to.

I push back hard because i played hard mmos, and no it doesn't solve anything to make the leveling experience harder. you just wind up getting the players out of the game entirely, not boost endgame participation or skill. And the harder you make it, the more raiders will complain because it's never enough for them; we had people say git gud on forums even with midas or gordias when they were relevant, and at one point on reddit they were talking about a JP style blacklist of players. if they make it harder, in two months the raiders will be back to complaining again that farm parties still suck and duty finder still has ice mages.

As for arrogant, whatever. I don't like people who don't think deeply about the changes they propose and handwave or ignore bad stuff. i hate forum culture and how it reinforces bad idea or has no historical knowledge of their own game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Im not the one who harps on savage needing to be made easier, and i said that because i'm annoyed at how i can make serious arguments about how difficulty might affect the playerbase in harmful ways and end up talking to a brick wall who doesn't get PEOPLE QUIT OVER THIS. And i don't care about how raiders need to justify their not toxicness, i'm also annoyed because everytime they talk on forums, they always are talking crap about how easy the game is and how they HAVE to change it for whatever reason

---

Don't forget to respond to Oscura. I'm the low-hanging fruit here :P

People also quit over boredom because the game provides them nothing. People quit because they couldn't get their housing. People quit because their friends quit. People quit because the game is too hard. People quit because crafting's new requirements were borderline unreasonable. People quit for a variety of reasons, and as previously noted, they quit both because the game is too easy and the game is too hard. There will never be a world in which nobody is quitting this game, period.

I'd like to think the people on the forums who complain about the game's ease complain because they enjoy the game's combat system, and see a lot of possible depth in it that could be explored but not a lot in the game really asks anything of those deep and complex game mechanics to be used. To them it could be seen as getting a super high end computer with the best components money can buy...only to use it playing pong. It's frustrating because there's so much more a machine like that is capable of.

When people ask for "more difficult" content, I think the major disconnect is they don't want content that is more difficult, they want more content that is difficult. Nobody's asking for Gordias again, but we are asking for more than four to seven instances every other patch, and everything else is mind numbing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

I push back hard because i played hard mmos, and no it doesn't solve anything to make the leveling experience harder. you just wind up getting the players out of the game entirely, not boost endgame participation or skill.

---

Which MMOs? Was difficult content the core reason people were dropping out? Were there perhaps other problems you weren't considering, but were only paying attention to the difficult content?

Quote:

---

And the harder you make it, the more raiders will complain because it's never enough for them; we had people say git gud on forums even with midas or gordias when they were relevant, and at one point on reddit they were talking about a JP style blacklist of players. if they make it harder, in two months the raiders will be back to complaining again that farm parties still suck and duty finder still has ice mages.

---

Do you think it's possible they were joking? Git gud is a meme, after all, and Gordias especially was a stressful bout of raids. I wouldn't put it past using git gud as a joke to relieve some of that stress. As well, we never did get that JP style blacklist, so it's obvious nobody ever got pushed to the point of making it.

Quote:

---

As for arrogant, whatever. I don't like people who don't think deeply about the changes they propose and handwave or ignore bad stuff.

---

So far the only "bad stuff" you said would happen already does, already has, and never will stop, happening. Even more, it happens both for the reason of things being too difficult and for the reason of things being too easy.

Quote:

---

i hate forum culture and how it reinforces bad idea or has no historical knowledge of their own game.

---

I hope you realize that, even as you say this, you're a part of that forum culture.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reinha

There is variation between expansions but the Charybdis in O1 is the same as in O1S. Akh Morn in Shinryu normal is the same as in the extreme mode (although less damaging). We already get to see some mechanics in normal modes of the same bosses and even get visual ground indicators to learn to dodge better (Clamp, Earth Shakers, Icicles). If we assume the normal modes aren't enough to train players for savage/extreme, I don't see how dungeon trash is going to do it any better. The idea of harder trash is appealing to me after doing high PotD floors but it's not the same as fighting a boss and it will never train people for boss fights as well as the normal versions of those bosses.

---

I haven't forgot about you, I promise :D

I wouldn't exactly say harder trash as opposed to smarter trash. I like that normal/hard mode fights are essentially previews of their extreme modes. But I think that should, in a sense, extend to dungeons as well. It certainly won't prepare all players for extreme fights, but it does reinforce the basic idea of paying attention to what you're doing. I wouldn't mind seeing more debuffs during a hard mode dungeon run myself. The expert roulette should feel like an expert roulette...of course, incentives need to be adjusted and I have my own thoughts on that, but ideally, expert roulettes should be the spot where you are preparing for harder content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RaijinSupreme

Why do yall keep going baack and forth and baaack and forth and BACCK AND forth with this person, trying to prove to one.....ONE person the validity of savage content???

Let’s simply look at the facts here.

Regardless of any one person's dissenting opinion, savage content has been a complete success in this game, even to the point that devs felt it was necessary to create a fight that’s harder than savage content. Its existence has already been proven worthy and welcomed, and it isn’t going anywhere anytime soon.

If she don’t like it, she don’t have to, and not a single essay that you write to her is going to change her opinion, or force her to stop giving her opinion, and at this point, y’all are just going in circles.

So instead of spending hours upon hours with her, try talking to someone who’s actually willing to listen to what you guys have to say.

---

Well...I did say this was an open discussion. And as far as I know, it still is. I have welcomed open opinions - yes, me and Riyah have been going back and forth for quite some time, but I don't view that as a bad thing. It's a debate. You've seen Presidential Debates, right? They engage in similar circular arguments throughout their three debates. We just happen to be passionate about our stances. Either we'll agree to disagree, or we'll find a middle ground.

There's no responding to someone like her, except to shut the lot up of them by showing that yes, you can still beat it and none of my points change. If you want to invoke total authority as a means to talk, the only answer is total authority back. And its stupid; you can complain about the big fish system in this game without needing to get every single one (which takes dedicated people up to two years and is a harder achievement in terms of time spent than any savage tier) but apparently raiding is this huge mystery.

As for wanting more content that is harder, go nuts. That's not really an issue here. I don't like raiders, but I've not argued it needs to be erased. there's a case for something like feast mostly because so few people do it and its so hard for them to police it. They gave ultimate for just that reason, and the only reason savage was made easier was because people literally could not handle it harder any longer. But its really not that in this; its "we need to make the bad casuals better," whenever it comes up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

There's no responding to someone like her, except to shut the lot up of them by showing that yes, you can still beat it and none of my points change. And its stupid; you can complain about the big fish system in this game without needing to get every single one (which takes dedicated people two years and is a harder achievement in terms of time spent than any savage coil) but apparently raiding is this huge mystery.

---

Apparently casual content is too. And the strange thing is, we can beat it--hell, we can run it every single day--and yet it's a mystery that eludes us.

Also fun attempt at poisoning the well. "No responding to someone like her"? Really?

Riyah, I took the time to point out before that the game really isn't as hard as it might seem, IF - IF - a player is willing to step outside of their comfort zone even a little, and make effort to learn or try. I'm not a world first anything, I'm not a top 100 player, but I'm no less capable than anyone else because I'm willing to simply brick my way up if I have to. The issue is many players DON'T want to, and the devs are left to cater to the lowest common denominator at that point.

It's one thing that they keep the bar low, for the sake of players with less time to invest, and so as not to alienate "casual" players. However we're 2 expansions in and not only is the bar not raising even a little, it's being LOWERED. That's the issue many players have now. Item levels are the only things going up; challenges generally feel the same, maybe with a different coat of paint, and the slightest modicum of challenge or difficulty is met with sudden culture shock that it's "too hard". Then the demands for nerfs/adjustments start.

The players that have the ability to adapt, and are willing to make the effort to try and learn outside of that comfort zone quickly see that once you do that, there's little to be found in terms of deeper gameplay or challenge. This is the same issue we've debated in terms of 4.0 PvP, and why players who enjoyed and excelled at the previous system (which was considered more complex, too hard to get into, too many buttons, etc.) don't enjoy it as much anymore, and overall, it's bad for the health of the game. We're level 70 now, yet the "challenge" still feels proportionate to how things were at 50, and in some cases, less so. Everything doesn't have to be an ordeal or some kind of gritty learning experience, but literally every time something even remotely challenging has popped up, there's been a large outcry against it.

We're level 70 now, but when is the game going to feel like level 70?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Also fun attempt at poisoning the well. "No responding to someone like her"? Really?

---

Like I said, arrogance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

We're level 70 now, yet the "challenge" still feels proportionate to how things were at 50, and in some cases, less so. Everything doesn't have to be an ordeal or some kind of gritty learning experience, but literally every time something even remotely challenging has popped up, there's been a large outcry against it.

We're level 70 now, but when is the game going to feel like level 70?

---

Wow...you've stated this so much better than I've been able to. Here, you've earned your Like +1.

We need another dungeon like the Aurum Vale, to be honest. Something that enforces smart pulls over wall to wall pulls. Something that forces healers to pay attention and tanks to smartly make pulls. But I also realize that there needs to be incentives to keep dungeons like these going. We need something like...I dunno....hmm....materia? Tomestones you actually have a chance of finding? Put something in these hard dungeons that will make players want to do them - but only if it's the expert roulette. Hell, throw in a weekly Grade 7/8 map. Something, so players have an additional reason to do expert roulettes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

snip

---

Personally, I missed the opportunity to try Gordias at release...but didn't the devs admit themselves that they overtuned it? So logically, they would be cautious about their difficulty. My stance is less about 'bad casuals need to get better' and more about the player gap needs to get smaller without the devs dumbing down the combat any more than it already is.

Hopefully you see this edit before you respond, but here's a thought: step in our shoes for a minute. Rather than rail against what we are saying, see things from our perspective. I offered to actually go into Omega Savage with you - that wasn't sarcasm or a jest, I really would party up with you. I can't remember, but have you done Susano Ex? Probably the easiest primal in quite some time. And yet, a lot of times, it turns into a complete mess.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

There's no responding to someone like her, except to shut the lot up of them by showing that yes, you can still beat it and none of my points change. If you want to invoke total authority as a means to talk, the only answer is total authority back. And its stupid; you can complain about the big fish system in this game without needing to get every single one (which takes dedicated people up to two years and is a harder achievement in terms of time spent than any savage tier) but apparently raiding is this huge mystery.

---

Weren't you the one who just said that raiders can't understand the casual player-base since they're not on that level or were never on that level? Yet I'm in the wrong for insinuating since you don't raid, that your opinion regarding raiding and raiders is completely invalid? You were are the one who keeps constantly expressing that people "don't think about how it effects the player-base," and acting as if people don't know how the average or even how bad players think because we're on a higher level. Casual content is some big mystery, but raiding isn't?

Stop being a hypocrite.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaivaC

Personally, I missed the opportunity to try Gordias at release...but didn't the devs admit themselves that they overtuned it? So logically, they would be cautious about their difficulty. My stance is less about 'bad casuals need to get better' and more about the player gap needs to get smaller without the devs dumbing down the combat any more than it already is.

---

Gordias was overtuned, and they went on the record to say they messed up. In fact, I think they apologized over it.

Quote:

---

Apparently casual content is too. And the strange thing is, we can beat it--hell, we can run it every single day--and yet it's a mystery that eludes us.

Also fun attempt at poisoning the well. "No responding to someone like her"? Really?

---

If someone says "I don't take you seriously until you do x" you either ignore them or do x. whats the point of responding to them until you do the latter? They've said their conditions to be taken seriously.

Quote:

---

It's one thing that they keep the bar low, for the sake of players with less time to invest, and so as not to alienate "casual" players. However we're 2 expansions in and not only is the bar not raising even a little, it's being LOWERED. That's the issue many players have now. Item levels are the only things going up; challenges generally feel the same, maybe with a different coat of paint, and the slightest modicum of challenge or difficulty is met with sudden culture shock that it's "too hard". Then the demands for nerfs/adjustments start.

---

They raised the bar with HW, people couldn't handle it. They lowered the bar, and are raising it in a different way via optional ultimate and probably stuff like the tournaments for feast pvp. if you want more optional hard content, ok. Raiders should argue more about that and less about parsers, because that affects only them. if you want the whole game harder, ok, but we're right back at HW then. If your argument is "either adapt or stop playing," like u do with the feast really ok, just own that. i think its dumb, but hey, if you convince most of the players this, well go nuts.

if you don't understand how people might struggle with content you think is easy, well, that makes it a lot harder for you because you wake up and see not many people doing what you think they do. This is what I mean by not understanding casual content; (since im overwhelmed with points to reply to) If you think everyone will rise to the challenge, well...experience is a grim teacher.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

If someone says "I don't take you seriously until you do x" you either ignore them or do x. whats the point of responding to them until you do the latter? They've said their conditions to be taken seriously.

---

Specifically, they called out your claim of defeating Savage not being an achievement:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Im tempted to clear sometimes just to shut up the forum scrubs who think its some kind of achievement.

---

When you make a claim like that, and say defeating Savage is easy (yes, you did, implicitly, by saying it's not an achievement), people are going to want to see you back that up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

They raised the bar with HW, people couldn't handle it.

---

They did not raise the bar with Heavensward. They raised it with Gordias, sure, and they even raised it too much; but compare Neverreap and Fractal to original Amdapor Keep: both were significantly easier than the latter.

Quote:

---

They lowered the bar, and are raising it in a different way via optional ultimate and probably stuff like the tournaments for feast pvp.

---

Fair enough: Ultimate is an entirely new mode for the cream of the crop. I'm not a pvper myself, just because it doesn't interest me all that much in any game. I do dabble from time to time. That, however, still leaves me with four to five instances of raid content every other patch.

Quote:

---

Raiders should argue more about that and less about parsers, because that affects only them. if you want the whole game harder, ok, but we're right back at HW then.

---

You mean ARR. When every dungeon would chew you up and spit you out. What was it you said about hating forum culture because they don't know the history of their own game?

Quote:

---

if you don't understand how people might struggle with content you think is easy, well, that makes it a lot harder for you because you wake up and see not many people doing what you think they do.

---

I understand how people struggle with content I think is easy. That's why I'm a firm advocate that ingame tools for improvement, such as a parser, a Hall of the Journeyman, and a slightly more taxing difficulty curve, would be beneficial. The fact the game is so easy is what's led to two other very controversial subjects that are somewhat unique in this game: tank and healer dps. It's so easy to have one's main role covered that the only challenge comes from fitting dps in while accomplishing one's given role.

Quote:

---

This is what I mean by not understanding casual content; (since im overwhelmed with points to reply to) If you think everyone will rise to the challenge, well...experience is a grim teacher.

---

I can understand; you're opinion is the one this topic was meant to interview, and thus you have a lot of attention.

I don't think everyone will rise to the challenge. I also don't think that this would lead to people quitting the game en masse, as you believe they would.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaivaC

We need another dungeon like the Aurum Vale, to be honest. Something that enforces smart pulls over wall to wall pulls. Something that forces healers to pay attention and tanks to smartly make pulls. But I also realize that there needs to be incentives to keep dungeons like these going. We need something like...I dunno....hmm....materia? Tomestones you actually have a chance of finding? Put something in these hard dungeons that will make players want to do them - but only if it's the expert roulette. Hell, throw in a weekly Grade 7/8 map. Something, so players have an additional reason to do expert roulettes.

---

You know, this is actually why I've come to actually LIKE Aurum Vale. And weren't the devs talking about preserving removed skill animations as job-based emotes? I'd run slightly tougher dungeons for something like that. Hell, I'd enjoy dungeons all over again both for the challenge, and a cool reward like that. This is a great suggestion!