Just played Final Fantasy XI

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Originally Posted by Aniond

Im mixed. I loved XI but before they changed the game to where you can power level to using the EXP camps. I miss the days where you had to group up and grind goblins or crawlers for EXP. The game that I loved is gone, so i will say FFXIV is better now.

I missed spell bursting and chain skilling.

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The game is much more than just exping (thankfully so). After 15 years would you still be exping and liking it?

I loved XI, lots of good, and bad memories. There's always something to do with every expansion. They didn't have patches every few months like XIV does, but for the most part you had endgame content that was relevant for years. Horizontal progression and such. Maybe if they did some kind of overhaul I'd go back, but honestly I'm liking the storytelling far more in XIV.

XIV endgame is frustrating to me. It's restricted to Savage raids only until the next patch where you run a 24 man raid to catch up. Then the next patch it's back to Savage only. Variety is the spice of life, and Diadem could of been that spice but for the life of me I don't get why they did what they did for it. Let us have other ways to gear up. Don't let the Savage people dictate gear progression, Diadem could of been an endgame hub with triggers and a token system. XI had something like it, called Abyssea. You could grind for exp, but it's mostly endgame where you fight bosses and get drops to trade for gear and weapons.

I'm hoping Eureka will take a page from Abyssea, because this is what XIV desperately needs right now. We'd still do Savage but it can't be the ONLY thing available for endgame gear.

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Originally Posted by Justuas

The game is much more than just exping. After 15 years would you still be exping and liking it?

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I'll say. I remember the time I was taking a ship from Selbina to Mhaura, and there was a Bard and a Dancer combo, singing and telling stories to the 5 of us on the ship along with them...when suddenly the Sea Horror appeared, and all of us got up, defeated it, and the ride ended with a retelling of the fight to defeat the Sea Horror. It brings a tear to my eye remembering that moment...you sadly can't get a memory like that from FFXIV.

Played for years... Quit in 2012. Started again on January 1st when they had the $10 sale.

Game is still as incredible as I remembered. It's so accessible now as well. Feels really good to play again. I can do so many DIFFERENT activities, not the same blunder over and over like in XIV.

They need to expand their horizons to be honest. XI's world really is incredible.

Kronkeykong on Asura

I honestly just resubbed about a month ago. But I am at a loss as to what to do since I am completely lvl capped on all jobs, have all expacs done and as a smn I only have the nirvana to work on atm and getting gear, mostly grinded out items and very few battles. I also have capacity points but hell if I know where to even begin there, all CP pts require a smn who already has acquired the mythic and I dont have another job that I am interested in playing again (brd, cor, geo, blm, sch, thf, rng) geared even remotely well.

It's a fantastic game with lots to do I am just stuck on looking around everywhere not sure where to go or what to do first. The bane of coming back with an endgame ready char.

The memories ;-; I miss XI as well. Played from release all the way up to 2015. Go back during the free to play events.
Still to this day I think XI is the better of the two. Don't get the same feels or memories from XIV as I did in my years of XI.

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

The players of XIV could not handle content like Dyna...or salvage or assault, def not sky or sea, NMs or most of the bcnms for that matter, imo anyway. Look at the way they freak out about everything. A very small and select group would be able to have fun with it and the rest would be flooding the forums screaming demands of nerfs because god forbid you make anything even a teeny tiny bit difficult. Even the minutest amount of challenge is met with a hailstorm of whining in this game, which is why everything but top tier endgame is an absolute faceroll.

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The only difference between now and then is that the people who are whining now would just quit (or not try the game in the first place) then. "A very small and select group would be able to have fun with it" - exactly. That's why they stopped making content like that.

What ever happened to that FFXI Mobile reboot? That looked promising but I don't think we've heard anything from that in years.

:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

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Originally Posted by Talraen

The only difference between now and then is that the people who are whining now would just quit (or not try the game in the first place) then. "A very small and select group would be able to have fun with it" - exactly. That's why they stopped making content like that.

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No, technically they could make content like that. The problem lies with the fact that if the guy who plays for an hour a week cannot or will not put in any effort into making time or learning his job so he can do it, he will just scream and shout about how unfair it is to him and how every bit of content should cater to him and him alone because his sub is all that matters.

No one quits, they just throw tantrums til they get their way.

Pharos Sirius Hard says hello!

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Originally Posted by Tanama

What ever happened to that FFXI Mobile reboot? That looked promising but I don't think we've heard anything from that in years.

:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

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It's being "fine tuned" atm according to a recent Yoshi P interview. Other sources say its going to be JP only, others yet say its cancelled. So who knows.

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

Pharos Sirius Hard says hello!

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Wait, what? I don't recall that ever being adjusted. It was easy from day 1.

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Originally Posted by Avatre

Wait, what? I don't recall that ever being adjusted. It was easy from day 1.

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It was adjusted. It was easy at first for anyone paying attn. but the difficulty was reduced because so many ppl complained about it being "too hard" and would just up and quit before it began.

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Originally Posted by Avatre

Wait, what? I don't recall that ever being adjusted. It was easy from day 1.

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If we take into consideration the average skill level of the playerbase. It really wasn't.

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

No, technically they could make content like that. The problem lies with the fact that if the guy who plays for an hour a week cannot or will not put in any effort into making time or learning his job so he can do it, he will just scream and shout about how unfair it is to him and how every bit of content should cater to him and him alone because his sub is all that matters.

No one quits, they just throw tantrums til they get their way.

Pharos Sirius Hard says hello!

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I think you're missing my point. There have always been people who can't or won't handle certain content. The difference between FFXI and FFXIV is, if you are one of those people you can still advance in FFXIV. In FFXI, you wouldn't even be able to level up if you couldn't play well with a group. Those people didn't last long enough to even consider whining about it, they just took their money elsewhere.

The number of people who can get something out of FFXIV is much, much higher than it was in FFXI. Therefore people who aren't good stick around and complain about anything they can't do. The difference is, this time they're still paying a subscription fee.

Only being fun for a small minority of players doesn't make a game better. It's only better for those players. That's the fundamental disconnect with all the FFXI love.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Only being fun for a small minority of players doesn't make a game better. It's only better for those players. That's the fundamental disconnect with all the FFXI love.

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I still say the disconnect is with the people who whine about difficulty. SE could easily make casual-midcore-hardcore tier content but so many ppl scream about how they cannot do hardcore content because they are casual and since they pay a sub all content should cater to them and them alone.

Ppl need to realize that tiered content is a good thing and that it is technically accessible to all ppl but they don't want to have to put in time to anything. Savage is an ok step in the right direction but they took away the exclusive story, unique weapons and prizes that came with it. All you get is a bigger number and for many that doesn't make it worthwhile. If you are going to work harder for something you need to be rewarded for it.

FFXI was perfectly accessible to even casual players if they put even a remote amount of effort into what they could. We had ppl in our ls that could only play once a week and they still did dyna, salvage, sky, etc because they bothered to learn "this spell does this so I should cast it now" instead of screaming about "my sub/my way" and expecting SE to change it for them. Sure it took them longer than us to get stuff, but that just made it more worthwhile in the end.

The same ppl cry about elitism but with their stance on "I shouldn't have to git gud or try, everything needs to be made for me, me me me me me" they are the most elite of them all.

Okay.

Enjoy your free time being consumed with arbitrary tedium for the sake of "immersion" or whatever the hell you seem to think it is.

I'm just gonna listen to the FFXI soundtrack (which is good) and like, if I want to do something that's actually difficult and not just a massive wall of numbers to slowly, slowly, slllooowwlly tap my forehead against, I'll head over to Dark Souls. Or just the gym.

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

SE could easily make casual-midcore-hardcore tier content but so many ppl scream about how they cannot do hardcore content because they are casual and since they pay a sub all content should cater to them and them alone.

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it's almost as if they're attracting and satisfying the largest playerbase possible so they can maximize incoming profit..

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

I honestly just resubbed about a month ago. But I am at a loss as to what to do since I am completely lvl capped on all jobs, have all expacs done and as a smn I only have the nirvana to work on atm and getting gear, mostly grinded out items and very few battles. I also have capacity points but hell if I know where to even begin there, all CP pts require a smn who already has acquired the mythic and I dont have another job that I am interested in playing again (brd, cor, geo, blm, sch, thf, rng) geared even remotely well.

It's a fantastic game with lots to do I am just stuck on looking around everywhere not sure where to go or what to do first. The bane of coming back with an endgame ready char.

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This should help you. It's a pretty comprehensive guide on "What am I supposed to do now?" for the returning player. Or at least, it'll describe what there is to do these days to help you progress, if not a straight up "Go do these things."

https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Returning_to_Vana%27diel

This is a more SMN specific guide, but you'll have to go into the later pages of the topic for more updated info. The OP is pretty outdated.

http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/46...ners-guide-v2/

Contrary to what some are suggesting, throwing the occasional bone at players who desire a 'grind' is hardly going to bring about the end of the world. Blizzard are bringing Classic servers back to WoW in the future due to popular demand and that had a considerable amount of 'grind' associated with it in its original form. Even after large portions of WoW became more accessible the developers still set about designing content with a 'grind' in mind. I believe they added an island at one point with various dinosaurs on it that could be hunted for bones which could then be exchanged for a mount. Some of them could be taken down solo style yet others required multiple players.

To pretend as if there isn't a demand for that sort of thing in FFXIV is, quite honestly, deceptive.

Some posts in this thread are mainly fixed on FFXI during its prime, which lasted from its release, to shortly after the last abyssea addon when the cap hit 99. I been through all of that, from 2004 - 2017, and I gotta say I liked the game in its current form much more than back then. DPS in this game might wait 30-hr.. but DD as they were called in FFXI's prime days, could wait up to a month before getting a pt. I'd be down for it though, that old grindy take-forever-to-level framework again, as that is what I was brought up on and am already used to it. But we are in a different era with a newer generation of players who might not be down for that sort of thing. Sure I remember the 8 hr pt sessions post 70(current era, you can hit 70 in a matter of hours or at least 2 days from lvl 1..). We'd take lunch breaks and stuff, and the social aspect was nice, real easy to make friends. That's about the only thing I miss - the social aspect.

What's funny is most of the "new" content being added to XI is just scaled up versions of old events that meet the current player power level and require a sizable time investment again. But it has better tuning for smaller groups if one so desires to low-man the stuff. Most of my time spent in XI anymore is just fiddling around with jobs I never finished leveling or working on a weapon in spare time solo since Siren became almost a ghost town compared to Asura

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Only being fun for a small minority of players doesn't make a game better. It's only better for those players. That's the fundamental disconnect with all the FFXI love.

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I kind of disagree with that. FFXI had a much more consistant player base. sitting around 500k for a good number of years till abyssea fawked it all up.

XIV's playerbase comes and goes and some of those census things you see have had numbers right down at 240k players. XIV's big problem is retaining players. over 10 millions sales and yet the active playerbase is just under 400k or so from the last census thing.

is it really a better game if so many people apparently drop it so quickly?

XI had no where near that number of sales yet managed to retain a steady 500k players rather consistently (which is higher than most of xivs censuses). until abbyssea messed things up.

XI Had better content participation as well. something like 3/4 of the playerbase were doing COP raids and stuff if you look at vanadiel censuses. and yet here raiding participation is vastly lower...

it would seem them that xi was fun for a greater portion of players than xiv. if you compare subs and sales.
just a thought

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

I still say the disconnect is with the people who whine about difficulty. SE could easily make casual-midcore-hardcore tier content but so many ppl scream about how they cannot do hardcore content because they are casual and since they pay a sub all content should cater to them and them alone.

Ppl need to realize that tiered content is a good thing and that it is technically accessible to all ppl but they don't want to have to put in time to anything. Savage is an ok step in the right direction but they took away the exclusive story, unique weapons and prizes that came with it. All you get is a bigger number and for many that doesn't make it worthwhile. If you are going to work harder for something you need to be rewarded for it.

FFXI was perfectly accessible to even casual players if they put even a remote amount of effort into what they could. We had ppl in our ls that could only play once a week and they still did dyna, salvage, sky, etc because they bothered to learn "this spell does this so I should cast it now" instead of screaming about "my sub/my way" and expecting SE to change it for them. Sure it took them longer than us to get stuff, but that just made it more worthwhile in the end.

The same ppl cry about elitism but with their stance on "I shouldn't have to git gud or try, everything needs to be made for me, me me me me me" they are the most elite of them all.

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For context, I am not one of the people who whines about the difficulty of top-tier content. I also don't do top-tier content. Not because I am not good enough, but because I have no interest in playing a game on a schedule and practicing like a job. I dabbled in that back in the Coil days, and I hated it.

However, I absolutely do think that all content should be accessible to all people, given a reasonable level of effort. And to be absolutely clear, all extreme primals, savage, original coil, etc. take more than this standard I'm referring to. Making a normal version of Alexander (not coincidentally, my favorite content in FFXIV to date) was an inspired move. Putting Neo-Exdeath behind Savage was a step in the wrong direction. It's not actually in any way story-relevant to FFXIV, so I'm not overly annoyed about it, but I don't like it.

I'm here for the content, not a challenge. There was a ton of content in FFXI I couldn't experience until they introduced Trusts, because I never had a stable group of friends who were both good enough at the game to do content with, and also didn't require me to treat the game like a job to play with them. I don't have any interest in a game that requires that. If you want to get together with your friends, get good at content, and prove your worth, that's all well and good. I wouldn't care if the best gear was locked behind the hardest content. But I do want access to all of the story content, without having to do that. And I don't apologize for it. When I finally finished Coil (turns 2 and 3 of which I didn't do until Heavensward), I was really upset that such a great story was locked behind content I hated doing when it was current. Who does that serve?

Any players who actually want to clear savage content by just casting Blizzard III are obviously wrong, but that argument is mostly a straw man. People like me, who just don't like difficult content, are much more common. Some of us are even "good enough" to do said content if we were willing to. We're not. But we still bought the game, and we still want the actual story content. Fortunately, Square Enix has already learned their lesson on that. I'm only responding to make sure they don't forget. :P

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Originally Posted by Rasikko

DPS in this game might wait 30-hr.. but DD as they were called in FFXI's prime days, could wait up to a month before getting a pt.

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I think there may be some sliiiight stretching here to the time frames ;) DPS in XIV are definitely not waiting 30 hours to do content, and XI was not a month. I think most DD from XI probably have stories where they had been flagged for a few hours and never got an invite, but I've never heard a month.

With that said, it definitely sucked waiting even a few hours to never get an invite and then have to log off. The trust system addition was definitely a good change, although I do miss the conversations you could have during parties. Met a lot of awesome people back then.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

I kind of disagree with that. FFXI had a much more consistant player base. sitting around 500k for a good number of years till abyssea fawked it all up.

XIV's playerbase comes and goes and some of those census things you see have had numbers right down at 240k players. XIV's big problem is retaining players. over 10 millions sales and yet the active playerbase is just under 400k or so from the last census thing.

is it really a better game if so many people apparently drop it so quickly?

XI had no where near that number of sales yet managed to retain a steady 500k players rather consistently. until abbyssea messed things up.

XI Had better content participation as well. something like 3/4 of the playerbase were doing COP raids and stuff if you look at vanadiel censuses. and yet here raiding participation is vastly lower...

it would seem them that xi was fun for a greater portion of players than xiv. if you compare subs and sales.
just a though

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The "active characters" in the FFXIV census means people who've completed the level 65 Stormblood dungeon. The 500k number for FFXI means everyone who logged in. And while it's not at all a fair comparison, if you based FFXI's active player numbers on who was halfway through the latest expansion and had completed everything before that, the number would have been far lower. I'd love to see you quote me stats where 3/4 of the population was doing CoP raids, because LOL no. When CoP was current, a minority of people even got past the first Promyvion. People pleaded for years for them to uncap CoP instances because they were too hard, and there was a huge rush to finally complete them when they did so, years later.

In short, FFXIV is currently more popular than FFXI ever was. Looking at raiding participation is inherently silly because the whole point of FFXIV's design is to be more broadly appealing. I liked FFXI and I never raided in any capacity aside from a few trips to Dynamis. I spent most of my time begging for parties to either level or do content (or tele-whoring).

My whole point here is that you're assuming everyone playing FFXI had the same experience you did. That's what survivorship bias is. I can assure you, they did not. I know because, since FFXI gave you little or no incentive to replay content you'd already done (and thus little incentive to help new players that you weren't bringing up to date to raid with), I spent a whole lot of time doing that content with players who also had never done it before.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

I think there may be some sliiiight stretching here to the time frames ;) DPS in XIV are definitely not waiting 30 hours to do content, and XI was not a month. I think most DD from XI probably have stories where they had been flagged for a few hours and never got an invite, but I've never heard a month.

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A month is an exaggeration, but looking for party for hours without an invite as a DD was very much the norm for many classes, not a rarity. God forbid you tried to level DRG before they changed the two-hour, or BLM on Colibri levels. Hell, getting a THF to level 15 took weeks since you couldn't solo anything worth enough EXP to matter and no one wanted you in a party without Sneak Attack. Classes would be completely shut out during certain level ranges, which prior to Level Sync meant you basically had to level with friends to progress at all.

You may be taking your own experiences to be representative of other servers just like you're telling Dzian not to. At least if I'm reading what you typed right. Nobody with any amount of playtime will say XI was all good or all bad or that the community was made of altruistic angels. On Siren it was common to see CoP clear parties and statics (I went through about 3 of them myself for others). XIV is more broadly appealing which is where I feel like it threw out the baby with the bathwater in the transition from 1.0. So many good systems thrown away for streamlining. Which is FINE, they needed a solid base to build up from but it often feels like they don't want to build up at all in terms of complexity or difficulty.

Wasn't it only recently that XIV's profits finally surpassed XI's? That's actually quite a feat considering how much of a head start the prior game had. So obviously they know what they're doing to encourage sales and after-purchase profits. No one can deny that XIV appeals to a broader demographic because the two games were vastly different. I myself would just be happy if they took some systems from XI or 1.0 and updated them for XIV's ecosystem.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

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I would disagree on some points, mostly due that looking at the Census numbers alone can paint kind of a deceiving picture alone.

Mostly that the consistency in XI is less to do with any aspect of quality of the game and more to do with the very forced nature of FFXI gameplay style which forced the need to go constantly in order to progress. It was kind of a possessive game in that regards. In addition, the content was constantly performed because as you progressed through XI there wasn't THAT much content released at any given time so individual participation was also higher because there were not that many options and the long time between content releases played into that as well. Now a days due to the years of the content stacking up it looks vaster then it actually was at the time. MMORPGs like XI work by getting players so devoted to it that leaving becomes that much harder to do and such keeps a core consistent audience as a result.

The other point is that XI was a MMORPG that was sort of a product of its time. The reason why MMORPGs like XI aren't made anymore is that it’s really not considered acceptable to waste people's time through the methods FFXI primarily used. Today a game released in the style of FFXI would likely be panned because of the unfair and extremely unbalanced difficulty. This kind of reflects on my view on XI then compared to now. Back then, I had a lot of time to waste on the extremely slow and tedious progression and I loved it. These days I simply do not, so I would find a game like FFXI undesirable at this stage of my life. Frankly, the ability the ability for people to walk away for periods of time and still be able to progress on XIV is strength not particular a weakness in that regards, sometimes it's more important to allow a player to walk away from your game from time to time. Fact is FFXI and XIV appeal to very different audience with entirely different needs, which is why I find comparing the two kind of weird in general.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

I'd love to see you quote me stats where 3/4 of the population was doing CoP raids, because LOL no. When CoP was current, a minority of people even got past the first Promyvion. People pleaded for years for them to uncap CoP instances because they were too hard, and there was a huge rush to finally complete them when they did so, years later.

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Official Vanadiel Census
looking at this you can 40% of the player base upto or beyond "emptiness bleeds" with roughly another 30% of the playerbase scattered along at various points before that.

While those figures only represent people who have started those missions and not cleared them it does still show a significant chunk of the playerbase was doing cop. and if you look at "the last verse" almost 25% of players had cleared it entirely.

this census is also the 2009 one so the figures represented are before abyssea came and the leve lcaps were removed. so COP particiapation was actually quite high when you look at it.

note however i'm not saying my numbers are 100% accurate because SE simply isn't as open with information as it once was for one reason or another.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Official Vanadiel Census
looking at this you can 40% of the player base upto or beyond "emptiness bleeds" with roughly another 30% of the playerbase scattered along at various points before that.

While those figures only represent people who have started those missions and not cleared them it does still show a significant chunk of the playerbase was doing cop. and if you look at "the last verse" almost 25% of players had cleared it entirely.

this census is also the 2009 one so the figures represented are before abyssea came and the leve lcaps were removed. so COP particiapation was actually quite high when you look at it.

note however i'm not saying my numbers are 100% accurate because SE simply isn't as open with information as it once was for one reason or another.

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I think this data actually proves my point. This data is from 2008 and 2009, and Chains of Promathia came out in 2004. There are already two subsequent expansions out by this point. So, four years after release, what looks to be just under 50% of players have completed the first three Promyvions. It's true that many players who got past that point go all the way, but that's just how FFXI works: you either had a static and did everything, or you didn't and you could barely progress at all. (Just look at the bar graphs; most of the graphs in the middle are virtually unchanged, but about as many players as got past the first mission in 2009 finished all of them.)

With the caveat that I don't think these numbers are actually accurate, but they're all that we have, let's compare to how the FFXIV census works. Again, "active player" means someone who finished the level 65 dungeon. That's halfway through the latest expansion. Around 25%, generously, of players are halfway through WotG according to this data. But WotG is really new, so let's look at ToAU instead - there, it's maybe 40% in 2009 and closer to 30% in 2008. Even CoP in 2009 is basically 50/50 for who's at least halfway through. By the FFXIV metric of "active players" those would reduce FFXI's 500k to 125k, 200k, or 250k, respectively. All of which are well below the 525k listed on the FFXIV census. FFXIV is still clearly the more popular game by a wide margin.

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Originally Posted by SilverObi

You may be taking your own experiences to be representative of other servers just like you're telling Dzian not to. At least if I'm reading what you typed right. Nobody with any amount of playtime will say XI was all good or all bad or that the community was made of altruistic angels. On Siren it was common to see CoP clear parties and statics (I went through about 3 of them myself for others). XIV is more broadly appealing which is where I feel like it threw out the baby with the bathwater in the transition from 1.0. So many good systems thrown away for streamlining. Which is FINE, they needed a solid base to build up from but it often feels like they don't want to build up at all in terms of complexity or difficulty.

Wasn't it only recently that XIV's profits finally surpassed XI's? That's actually quite a feat considering how much of a head start the prior game had. So obviously they know what they're doing to encourage sales and after-purchase profits. No one can deny that XIV appeals to a broader demographic because the two games were vastly different. I myself would just be happy if they took some systems from XI or 1.0 and updated them for XIV's ecosystem.

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To clarify, I'm not saying that my experience is the norm or even that common in FFXI. What I am pointing out is that nostalgia threads like this are usually populated only by people who played and loved FFXI, and ignores the experiences of the many, many people who did not have that experience. I'm saying that our experiences both exist. And that's the flaw with FFXI, and the reason they didn't make FFXIV like it.

The problem with taking FFXI's systems and updating them for FFXIV is that some of those systems are inherent to the reason FFXI had more limited appeal than FFXIV. For instance, open-world bosses. Look at how much trouble Hunts cause, and just imagine that combined with week-long spawns and maybe an FFXI-style claim system. Hunts are the updated version of open world bosses, yet people still constantly clamor for them. But hey, if it makes you feel better, the upcoming chocobo saddlebags are a very FFXI-style inventory expansion. ;)

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Originally Posted by Talraen

The problem with taking FFXI's systems and updating them for FFXIV is that some of those systems are inherent to the reason FFXI had more limited appeal than FFXIV. For instance, open-world bosses. Look at how much trouble Hunts cause, and just imagine that combined with week-long spawns and maybe an FFXI-style claim system. Hunts are the updated version of open world bosses, yet people still constantly clamor for them. But hey, if it makes you feel better, the upcoming chocobo saddlebags are a very FFXI-style inventory expansion. ;)

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Hunts have drama because a lot of people feel that they are entitled to get a kill, even though the system is first come, first serve. I would say the fault lies with the players and not the event itself. The current Hunt thread from the other day was quite amusing.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

With the caveat that I don't think these numbers are actually accurate, but they're all that we have, let's compare to how the FFXIV census works. Again, "active player" means someone who finished the level 65 dungeon. That's halfway through the latest expansion. Around 25%, generously, of players are halfway through WotG according to this data. But WotG is really new, so let's look at ToAU instead - there, it's maybe 40% in 2009 and closer to 30% in 2008. Even CoP in 2009 is basically 50/50 for who's at least halfway through. By the FFXIV metric of "active players" those would reduce FFXI's 500k to 125k, 200k, or 250k, respectively. All of which are well below the 525k listed on the FFXIV census. FFXIV is still clearly the more popular game by a wide margin.

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Not that I disagree, but expansion clears is a weird way of comparing it.

In XI it wasn't required to finish storylines to hit max level, you could get to max level without finishing CoP, ToAU, it just made it more annoying and a lot of the areas and features unlock midway through. Due to how long it takes to level back then, I would consider even someone who is still 51+ and at least Rank 5-6 (when the first arc ends and dynamis/zilart unlocks) to be an active player.

In XIV you can't get to max level without going through the expansion so it's kind of a weird comparison.

Completing an expansion fully in XI is somewhat like participating in XIV endgame and we all know how low the participation rate of savage is. It'd be like looking up the amount of T13 or O12S clears right now which most people probably don't even bother doing even though it is nerfed and saying XIV isn't popular based on those numbers.

Different games for different times honestly. The MMO genre was relatively niche back then when XI was in it's prime compared to now (XIV is a mass market MMO, it is designed to get as many people to play as possible, in XI if you didn't like the content they put out it was literally "deal with it") so even hitting 500k back then is pretty good. The mechanics of XI were acceptable in 2004, but they just wouldn't fly in 2018. People in XIV lose their minds over hunts, they would last about 10 minutes in old XI.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

I think this data actually proves my point. This data is from 2008 and 2009, and Chains of Promathia came out in 2004.

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While I don't dispute cop being old by the time of the census I linked. The important fact that should be noted is that it was still relevant content at that time.

In xiv it would be like taking omega savage clears in 4.1 even though it's old content from a previous patch it's still relevant.

However if you took omega clears in 5.0 the data wouldn't be accurate as many would be unsynced clears. Like the clear rate for coil shot up towards the end of heavensward.

I'd argue that experiences vary just as much in XIV as they did in XI. I have yet to meet the mythical ice mage, or see the overwhelming toxicity of elitists in every type of content. The ease of content (not including the sharp upward curve in some endgame) does attract the bigger audience yes and the arguable amount of attention paid to tuning fights and such can lead to an overall homogeneous experience for a larger amount of the playerbase, but I wouldn't say that was a flaw with XI per se. XI's flaws were not updating the systems that were unreasonably greedy with a player's time and the refusal to share information with the players themselves until recently. As I've said before, I'll defend XI to the death for what it did right but also crucify it for the things it did wrong. I just don't see player experiences varying as one of them

And it's possible I missed where someone said that XI is the more popular game? XIV doesn't need people defending it, it's already proven it can stand on its own two feet despite its continual problems. XI was the most profitable game by SE ever up until recently but that's through sheer lifespan and not much else. Anyone saying that XIV is not as popular as XI was is incorrect obviously, but the point of contention is actually about quality. And that of course varies on player experience

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Originally Posted by Vaer

Not that I disagree, but expansion clears is a weird way of comparing it.

In XI it wasn't required to finish storylines to hit max level, you could get to max level without finishing CoP, ToAU, it just made it more annoying and a lot of the areas and features unlock midway through. Due to how long it takes to level back then, I would consider even someone who is still 51+ and at least Rank 5-6 (when the first arc ends and dynamis/zilart unlocks) to be an active player.

In XIV you can't get to max level without going through the expansion so it's kind of a weird comparison.

Completing an expansion fully in XI is somewhat like participating in XIV endgame and we all know how low the participation rate of savage is. It'd be like looking up the amount of T13 or O12S clears right now which most people probably don't even bother doing even though it is nerfed and saying XIV isn't popular based on those numbers.

Different games for different times honestly. The MMO genre was relatively niche back then when XI was in it's prime compared to now (XIV is a mass market MMO, it is designed to get as many people to play as possible, in XI if you didn't like the content they put out it was literally "deal with it") so even hitting 500k back then is pretty good. The mechanics of XI were acceptable in 2004, but they just wouldn't fly in 2018. People in XIV lose their minds over hunts, they would last about 10 minutes in old XI.

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I agree, it's not a good comparison. However, neither is comparing the 525k from the FFXIV census to the 500k historic high from FFXI. How do we actually compare the games' popularity fairly? I have no idea. But I don't think there's any evidence that FFXI was ever as popular as FFXIV is now, yet I regularly see people claiming this based on the FFXIV census number.

And yes, I agree that completing an expansion in FFXI is roughly equivalent to participating in FFXIV endgame, and I think the reason is that you really need a static to do either. Yes, it was possible to PUG your way through FFXI content, just as some people do that for savage, but that doesn't seem to be the way most people do it. The thing is, the fact that this is equivalent is exactly what was bad about FFXI. My whole point here was that FFXI seems great if you were one of the lucky ones who could do that. Casual Final Fantasy fans want to finish the story, they don't necessarily want to have to form a cohesive unit with people online to do that.

I also agree that MMOs used to be niche, but I think you're wrong about the reaction today. I think if you released an FFXI-style game right now, many of the people who loved FFXI back then would be happy to go right back to that style of game. The difference is that WoW attracted a huge number of people to the genre who would not play FFXI. But they wouldn't have done so in 2004, either. And they didn't.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

While I don't dispute cop being old by the time of the census I linked. The important fact that should be noted is that it was still relevant content at that time.

In xiv it would be like taking omega savage clears in 4.1 even though it's old content from a previous patch it's still relevant.

However if you took omega clears in 5.0 the data wouldn't be accurate as many would be unsynced clears. Like the clear rate for coil shot up towards the end of heavensward.

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Again, the fact that we're comparing endgame content in FFXIV to story content in FFXI is exactly the problem I'm talking about.

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Originally Posted by SilverObi

I'd argue that experiences vary just as much in XIV as they did in XI. I have yet to meet the mythical ice mage, or see the overwhelming toxicity of elitists in every type of content. The ease of content (not including the sharp upward curve in some endgame) does attract the bigger audience yes and the arguable amount of attention paid to tuning fights and such can lead to an overall homogeneous experience for a larger amount of the playerbase, but I wouldn't say that was a flaw with XI per se. XI's flaws were not updating the systems that were unreasonably greedy with a player's time and the refusal to share information with the players themselves until recently. As I've said before, I'll defend XI to the death for what it did right but also crucify it for the things it did wrong. I just don't see player experiences varying as one of them

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Honestly, I think a duty finder would have immediately solved like 75% of FFXI's issues. The content wasn't actually that hard, it was getting a party together that was the real challenge. It's a fun game, even today. The only reason I let my account lapse is because I'm out of story content to do, and leveling for its own sake seems almost nihilistic. :)

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

Hunts have drama because a lot of people feel that they are entitled to get a kill, even though the system is first come, first serve. I would say the fault lies with the players and not the event itself. The current Hunt thread from the other day was quite amusing.

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Yeah the hunt etiquette in this game is kind of insane, which has caused me to just avoid them. And you're right to point out that FFXI-style open world bosses wouldn't have the same kind of drama as hunts. But they'd still have plenty of their own kind. :)

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Honestly, I think a duty finder would have immediately solved like 75% of FFXI's issues. The content wasn't actually that hard, it was getting a party together that was the real challenge. It's a fun game, even today. The only reason I let my account lapse is because I'm out of story content to do, and leveling for its own sake seems almost nihilistic. :)

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Funnily enough, they did add a rudimentary PF system to XI. Which you probably already know about, I never saw it make a difference on Siren though but maybe it worked better on the servers that still have a healthier population. But like a lot of things, too little too late. The leveling in XI is more relaxing for me as opposed to XIV, where I feel like I need to try as hard as I can to perform well. In XI I can just solo level with my trusts and listen to some netflix (how do people play this and also watch Netflix like I hear is apparently common?)

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Originally Posted by SilverObi

Funnily enough, they did add a rudimentary PF system to XI. Which you probably already know about, I never saw it make a difference on Siren though but maybe it worked better on the servers that still have a healthier population. But like a lot of things, too little too late. The leveling in XI is more relaxing for me as opposed to XIV, where I feel like I need to try as hard as I can to perform well. In XI I can just solo level with my trusts and listen to some netflix (how do people play this and also watch Netflix like I hear is apparently common?)

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What system did they implement? O.o I first went back a few years ago with a new character, but I've stuck to low-key things since then (leveling, MSQ, random farming, etc). I haven't ventured out into the current end-game yet.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

I also agree that MMOs used to be niche, but I think you're wrong about the reaction today. I think if you released an FFXI-style game right now, many of the people who loved FFXI back then would be happy to go right back to that style of game. The difference is that WoW attracted a huge number of people to the genre who would not play FFXI. But they wouldn't have done so in 2004, either. And they didn't.

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Maybe, but the genre right now is about mass market because it has worked for so long. I'm one of the players that played XI for many years so I wouldn't mind a game like that. Basically a timesink game. But I know most publishers aren't going to fund a game like that especially with the popularity in mobile games which are basically jump in jump out gameplay models. Most of the ones that have the older EQ era mechanics are all kickstarter ones or have to beg for funding in other ways. IMO FFXIV was designed around the same idea as WoW, that is to get FF fans that have never played an MMO (just like WoW wanted to capture people that never played one, remember the celebrity commercials?) to try one. Personally I think players that want the type of game that EQ, FFXI, UO, vanilla WoW and the likes back then were is a minority compared to ones that want ones like FFXIV or current WoW.

If classic WoW takes off, maybe things will change, but for now I'm not so sure about the viability considering the amount of money it takes to design an MMO.

I don't think I ever even got into Chains of Promathia content, and yet for some reason I bought each new expansion as it came out. I just couldn't handle the endless waits to find a party or wrap my head around the prerequisites necessary to make myself more appealing for parties to invite me or the leadership aspect of starting my own. Meanwhile in FFXIV I've traipsed my way through each expansion, though I don't much mess with the raid scene.

And yet, I think I enjoyed existing in Vana'diel far more than my entire FFXIV experience. Heck, to be honest, I'm tempted to resume the little NPC party trip I was taking through Vana'diel a year or so ago... if I can just remember my login credentials, PlayOnline is the one part I'm only nostalgic about once I manage to log in. ;p

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Originally Posted by Seig345

I don't think I ever even got into Chains of Promathia content, and yet for some reason I bought each new expansion as it came out.

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That was one of the neat things about XI's expansions and storylines. They were mostly standalone and could be taken in on their own merits and you wouldn't be missing much if you didn't complete or even start another. It's interesting to see how the devs here painted themselves into plot corners in gating off content by expansion and had to make clumsy efforts to not exclude new players when the ones for XI did it so right. Got the expansion? Great you can use the jobs that come with it and go to the new zones at your will.