Red Mage could use some help.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

There is no such thing as "raw damage is utility" in this game, because jobs that buff the party will ALWAYS be preferred by parties (this is a no-brainer) and the total DPS will be stronger 9 times out of 10.

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By your own logic wouldn't it be better to push for Red Mage personal DPS to be increased rather than offensive utility as you keep saying? That way it wouldn't become the mandatory mess that NIN is and doesn't push other classes out of relevance.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Sort of makes me think of what I originally thought RDM would be doing: using the melee combo as a generator and the spells as spenders. I think a big cause of RDM's current depth is the fact we have one spender, and everything else is a generator.

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To tell you the truth, that's what I thought the job was going to be when it was first announced. I wonder in a 'what if' fashion if red mages would fit in the rankings better if that were the case? Would the job's damage output increase if red mages were overhauled to use melee combo generators and spell spenders?

Another idea: Leave red mages alone but nerf summoner output in response to its greater utility. The reason this idea would be good is it does not affect the game play of the red mages. I greatly enjoy the simplicity of the job and appreciate there is an understanding by S.E. that not all of their players want complicated classes.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

To tell you the truth, that's what I thought the job was going to be when it was first announced. I wonder in a 'what if' fashion if red mages would fit in the rankings better if that were the case? Would the job's damage output increase if red mages were overhauled to use melee combo generators and spell spenders?

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Damage output is an entirely separate thing from gameplay. SE could double the potency of Veraero and Verthunder for example and the damage output would skyrocket without changing the gameplay at all.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

nerf summoner output in response to its greater utility.

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I think this needs to happen regardless of changes to RDM, for BLM's sake if nothing else. Right now SMN has more damage, more (indeed, some, as BLM has none) group damage, more freedom of movement and better utility than BLM does, making it pretty much strictly better.

I dont think this is the place for me(i am sorry) but can someone help with my build now?

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/144HI

i came from BLM so yeah im not sure with my build. you can view my current stats in my lodestone.

You will want to meld crit over determination, and while i am not sure the exact number i believe DH has a cap
DH>Crit> Determination is the route i go for Red Mage

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Originally Posted by Maero

You will want to meld crit over determination, and while i am not sure the exact number i believe DH has a cap
DH>Crit> Determination is the route i go for Red Mage

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Thanks for the Reply. Do by any chance know where can i see BiS for RDM?

I honestly have not done much Savage so not 100% sure unfortunately.
Hopefully other Red Mages can reply and with what the actual DH cap is as i am not sure.

This is considered the current BiS

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

Rdm atm fills a very specific role, and it fills that role quite well, but most people who have rdm don't enjoy that role. A rdm allows prog groups to make it further into fights that would have been wiped a long time ago for more opportunities to learn mechanics in certain spots.

Their damage could use a slight boost, but the level of utility they bring could only be ballanced by being the lowest dps job. No other dps can redeem learning groups as hard as rdm.

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The reality of the class is basically this. I get lost in it because I have a really good SMN and I converse with an egotistic BLM. But we do fulfill a unique role during progression and we do it well. Personally, I would like to see us with a chance of a dot being applied on one of our enhanced melee attacks and Embolden being more useful.

Well, no meaningful buff to RDM (perhaps some small potency adjustments)

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Originally Posted by Singularity

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But it has been said that a class' DPS is also based on how punished they are upon death. Which, to my understanding as well as popular consensus, SMN is one of the most punished jobs upon a death. Sure, all DPS are punished on death, but some more severely than others. BLM are not severely punished upon death. I feel like people just completely forget this part when they complain about "xxx job is less dps than xxx job" especially since they are not taking into consideration the entirety of what justifies their damage. BLM does not have to wait for MP upon revival, so their dps is not hindered that extensively. I mean, a SMN might as well not even accept res until Lucid or Aether is at least up. AND with the nerf to Aetherflow, SMN has to use Energy to regain MP if they die.

Now, in a perfect situation, no one is supposed to die. However, that does not change the fact that the dps of a class reflects how punished a job is upon death.

That doesn't make any sense. Why would you limit the DPS potential of a class based on a condition you never want to meet (death)? SMN isn't even punished that much on death anymore since they can still get back up and do their generic rotation including resummoning their pet.

I read this entire thread. So what do Red Mages want specifically? DRK's, MNK's, BLM's, all have said DPS bla bla bla but they have put forth ideas. There are only two ideas I have seen in here one is have embolden affect all damage types and the other is have VerHoly/Fire cause a debuff to boost magic damage or decrease enemy damage done.

RDM damage is low but they fit a unique niche of mass rasing. If that niche is taken away from them, they should be buffed. That is what this thread is mostly about.

Zuzu hit it right on the mark. Frankly most RDMs are tired of being brought just because of Verraise so a lot of people (judging by forum responses anyway) would rather Verraise gets toned down and RDM personal DPS and/or rDPS contribution gets raised a tad.

If Dualcast became similar to Lightspeed in that it only cuts 5s from the next spell's cast time, I think it'd be a fine system. That way, they can't just spam rezes all the time.

Though, I could see Verraise not be tampered with as death is already too punishing for a chunk of classes (particularly Dragoon and Summoner) to really consider it a massive boon, and just increase the rDPS or personal DPS.

At the very least, make Embolden the 20% that was originally promised and make it apply to mages. The drop off is a dumb mechanic in Embolden's current state.

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Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

If Dualcast became similar to Lightspeed in that it only cuts 5s from the next spell's cast time, I think it'd be a fine system. That way, they can't just spam rezes all the time.
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That change would not make much difference. After 5 sec you only have 2 - 3 sec raise cast depending spell speed so you lose at the best 0.5 sec between raises, if your spell speed is 0.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

That change would not make much difference. After 5 sec you only have 2 - 3 sec raise cast depending spell speed so you lose at the best 0.5 sec between raises, if your spell speed is 0.

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Mmm. Sorry, that's not actually true. Verraise's base cast time is a whopping 10s. As in, at 1812 Spell Speed, you'd still be stuck with a 4.12s cast time if you shave off 5s.

I chose 5s because that's the base cast time for Verthunder/Veraero, in the same way that Light Speed shaves off 2.5s for all spells for AST while under its effect. You'd have something effectively Instant, but not instant for everything.

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Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

Mmm. Sorry, that's not actually true. Verraise's base cast time is a whopping 10s. As in, at 1812 Spell Speed, you'd still be stuck with a 4.12s cast time if you shave off 5s.
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That is actually true, I remember all raises was 8 sec.

Yeah, that is a fair assumption. Everyone but RDM has an 8s raise. It's almost like Dualcast WAS supposed to be a 5s shave, but they didn't properly implement it.

can people stop calling for changes on classes and jobs that are fine like the Red Mage is fine please stop complaining about it. if you want to compare it to another job then go play that job everybody wants jobs to be the same. somebody parsed me and said you should be doing 4.5 K in this raid not 4.4 for legitimate complaints okay but all this crying I have a problem with it. If it don't apply Let it Fly

Except the Red Mage is a significant underperformer, both as a support and as a DPS. It's not exactly a "BAD" thing to want balance, and it's something that any decent game designer strives for.

I mean, if we're the problem for "whining" about a class that has been proven to underperform in all areas, then what does that make you for complaining without anything to add to the topic? Like, no actual arguments or anything beyond "stop wanting things"?

RDM needs literally nothing. It's between a healer and a DPS in their DPS capabilities, it just so happens that's at the very bottom, where it should be. It's supposed to be a bad DPS and a bad healer. It's a trait of the class that SE won't change. It's also a class that toddlers can play optimally, buffing it would just be dumb.

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Originally Posted by Zzzlol94

RDM needs literally nothing. It's between a healer and a DPS in their DPS capabilities, it just so happens that's at the very bottom, where it should be. It's supposed to be a bad DPS and a bad healer. It's a trait of the class that SE won't change. It's also a class that toddlers can play optimally, buffing it would just be dumb.

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Just...wow.

Sorry but no. In ffxiv there is no such thing as being "between a dps and a healer." It's a dps full stop. This is an mmo, not a single player rpg.

I'll say something I said on one of the BLM threads, the balance changes are way too freaking slow in this game, now RDM and SAM who needed some kind of boost got nothing and will have to wait until 4.3 to maybe get something worth for they to compete, BLM is more than likely not getting enough and will be on the same boat and the broken classes are never nerfed and are OP forever, if we had more consistent balance changes the devs would be able to experiment more since they would be able to tune down something that was overbuffed or boost someone who was overnerfed, the way it is now the top classes never change...

100% this. RDM is probably the least balanced job right now. it does less than Bard DPS, brings less utility than Bard and Summoner, and has less effective mobility than Summoner as well. Summoner does what RedMage does several times better. the only thing a RedMage has over Summoner is quick raises and even that is lackluster considering RedMage's piss poor mana regen.

They need to buff Red Mage's DPS/Utility by a considerable margin and Nerf Summoner overall quite a bit to even them out.
Summoner should never have been allowed to have so much in their kit while remaining so powerful. it literally just breaks the existing casters.

And to all of the people that are going to argue for RedMage's raises being good for prog. That doesn't justify the job being outclassed by every single DPS in the game in every other category.

Here's some visuals if you don't believe me.
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#dataset=90

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Originally Posted by Zytoryu

100% this. RDM is probably the least balanced job right now. it does less than Bard DPS, brings less utility than Bard and Summoner, and has less effective mobility than Summoner as well. Summoner does what RedMage does several times better. the only thing a RedMage has over Summoner is quick raises and even that is lackluster considering RedMage's piss poor mana regen.

They need to buff Red Mage's DPS/Utility by a considerable margin and Nerf Summoner overall quite a bit to even them out.
Summoner should never have been allowed to have so much in their kit while remaining so powerful. it literally just breaks the existing casters.

And to all of the people that are going to argue for RedMage's raises being good for prog. That doesn't justify the job being outclassed by every single DPS in the game in every other category.

Here's some visuals if you don't believe me.
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#dataset=90

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This post basically shows why the "But muh progs" argument is not a good point for keeping RDM dps and non-rez utility low.

Because what happens when we are beyond the "let's see what this boss has to offer" phase, and finding our DPS isn't capable of passing the checks? You'll need to switch, and while SOME Red Mages have managed to actually parse decently, RDM is still the most fundamentally broken class in the game, and not in the "PLZ NERF" way.

And here's my thing: I LOVE how Red Mage plays. I HATE that it's so useless right now, and would hinder me harder than playing Black Mage (especially with incoming buffs to BLM).

And the sad thing is, it's not all that hard to boost Red Mage to an acceptable level. A 20-50 potency boost to all spells or a boost to our GCDs and Enchanted Melee attacks and definitely a buff to Embolden, and not locking it to only melee classes and ourselves benefiting from it.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Just...wow.

Sorry but no. In ffxiv there is no such thing as being "between a dps and a healer." It's a dps full stop. This is an mmo, not a single player rpg.

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Oh? Because Yoshi himself said that RDM is half white mage, half black mage. Hence why vercure is INT based and they have access to Verraise. Also, even if RDM don't use Vercure, it is still part of their support kit, which takes away from their DPS output. Just because a class doesn't use their support skill, doesn't mean it isn't there.

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Originally Posted by TraeSnow

Oh? Because Yoshi himself said that RDM is half white mage, half black mage. Hence why vercure is INT based and they have access to Verraise. Also, even if RDM don't use Vercure, it is still part of their support kit, which takes away from their DPS output. Just because a class doesn't use their support skill, doesn't mean it isn't there.

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...Are. Are you trying to seriously trying to use that comment out of context? Because YoshiP has also stated that RDM is a DPS class, with Black and White Magic referring to the fact that in lore, it's a hybrid of Amdapori and Mhachi magic, being able to use Thaumaturgy/Black Magic for Verfire, Verthunder and Verflare as well as Conjury/White Magic for Verstone, Veraero and Verholy. Its Vercure and Verraise are there for flavor and because it's expected from a Red Mage to have an emergency heal and a possible raise.

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Originally Posted by Zzzlol94

RDM needs literally nothing. It's between a healer and a DPS in their DPS capabilities, it just so happens that's at the very bottom, where it should be. It's supposed to be a bad DPS and a bad healer. It's a trait of the class that SE won't change. It's also a class that toddlers can play optimally, buffing it would just be dumb.

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Dude, you're the person that wanted to nerf Vercure because RDMs can solo PotD. Nobody is going to take you seriously as far as balance suggestions and for the umpteenth time, the devs already said difficulty of gameplay is not something they balance off of.

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Originally Posted by TraeSnow

Oh? Because Yoshi himself said that RDM is half white mage, half black mage. Hence why vercure is INT based and they have access to Verraise. Also, even if RDM don't use Vercure, it is still part of their support kit, which takes away from their DPS output. Just because a class doesn't use their support skill, doesn't mean it isn't there.

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You tried to use general FF lore and then failed miserably by forgetting this is FF14, White Magic is not limited to Cure, Protect/Shell and Esuna. In this game White Magic includes offensive Earth, Air, and Water Magic. By that logic you could argue Red Mage is supposed to be more powerful due to a more wide ranging repertoire of magic.

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

Dude, you're the person that wanted to nerf Vercure because RDMs can solo PotD. Nobody is going to take you seriously as far as balance suggestions and for the umpteenth time, the devs already said difficulty of gameplay is not something they balance off of.

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Summoner and healers can also solo PotD. Under that person's logic, they should all be nerfed.

With that said, it would be nice to have more difficult content, and perhaps more variety of content. BUT THAT'S AN UNRELATED COMMENT.

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Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

...Are. Are you trying to seriously trying to use that comment out of context? Because YoshiP has also stated that RDM is a DPS class, with Black and White Magic referring to the fact that in lore, it's a hybrid of Amdapori and Mhachi magic, being able to use Thaumaturgy/Black Magic for Verfire, Verthunder and Verflare as well as Conjury/White Magic for Verstone, Veraero and Verholy. Its Vercure and Verraise are there for flavor and because it's expected from a Red Mage to have an emergency heal and a possible raise.

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Doesn't matter. Vercure and Verraise are both utility that are added to the RDM kit. Utility takes away from your damage whether you use it or not.

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Originally Posted by TraeSnow

Doesn't matter. Vercure and Verraise are both utility that are added to the RDM kit. Utility takes away from your damage whether you use it or not.

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Doesn't change that RDM is still a DPS, and as far as "utility" goes, they provide less than bard still, yet still do less than bard. Besides which, if it takes away from ones damage whether they use it or not, it shouldn't take even *more* away from one's damage when they have to use it. Any cast of vercure* or verraise is an opportunity cost of 9-11 mana and 230-300 potency, not to mention the cost to the least sustainable mp pool in the game.

Not to mention that, due to the lack of any dot whatsoever, any gcd that isn't damage drops RDM's moment-to-moment dps to 0.

*Not including casting vercure mid-transition to proc dualcast for when the boss drops back down

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

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Don't get me wrong, I'm not against RDM getting buffed. They should be above Bard/MCH for sure. I'm just trying to point out that soooo many people in this thread keep complaining that RDM dps is so low when they only have Embolden for utility - but Vercure and Verraise are STILL considered utility - even if they aren't used. They are still there and people just overlook it completely by saying "We only have Embolden for utility."

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Originally Posted by TraeSnow

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against RDM getting buffed. They should be above Bard/MCH for sure. I'm just trying to point out that soooo many people in this thread keep complaining that RDM dps is so low when they only have Embolden for utility - but Vercure and Verraise are STILL considered utility - even if they aren't used. They are still there and people just overlook it completely by saying "We only have Embolden for utility."

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The problem is vercure as utility is weak. It's the potency of a cure 1 basically, and one could even argue that RDM has this in lieu of any other self preserving skills--ie Second Wind, Bloodbath, Manaward/wall. If one is extremely good one can do the one clutch heal needed to save a run, but honestly most of the time vercure is only used to proc dualcast, something that it doesn't need to be INT based to do.

The problem with balancing around verraise is it makes RDM a job for prog only: it creates a dynamic where, say, people who want to play BLM cannot during prog because RDM is so much better for it, and people who want to play RDM past prog cannot because it brings nothing beyond it.

That's why most of what I've seen from the forum RDM community has been "Nerf verraise and buff our dps and embolden."

Their aoe could use an improvement.Kind of underwhelming and spammy.

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Originally Posted by MysticDreamer

Their aoe could use an improvement.Kind of underwhelming and spammy.

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But that's most classes in the game. Bard, Machinist, Dragoon, Ninja, Healers and Tanks would all like to speak to you.

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Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

Dragoon

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At least Dragoon has an AoE combo as of Stormblood :).

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Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

But that's most classes in the game. Bard, Machinist, Dragoon, Ninja, Healers and Tanks would all like to speak to you.

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BRD has multidotting and Song procs to manage while you spam one skill. MCH still has to handle heat and keep Hot Shot up and the Turret lets you aoe while doing Single Target rotation in some cases. Ninja has Mudras to do, chose between Katon and Doton depending on the situation and Huton to keep. Dragoon has an aoe combo which each skill has a different shape. Healers have to keep people alive while aoe. DRK and WAR have Gauge and MP/TP into aoe consideration. PLD can alternate on Spells and Eclipse based on amount of enemies and TP they have.

RDM spams one button. The only fun aoe situation of RDM is when you've 3 targets so you still alternate spells for more Mana.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

I read this entire thread. So what do Red Mages want specifically? DRK's, MNK's, BLM's, all have said DPS bla bla bla but they have put forth ideas. There are only two ideas I have seen in here one is have embolden affect all damage types and the other is have VerHoly/Fire cause a debuff to boost magic damage or decrease enemy damage done.

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Apart from a general potency increase and embolden buffs, RDM could really use a dot. Make verholy/verflare put up a dot or something, idc. But the lack of a dot really hurts RDM when there's movement mechs while SMN/BLM still has some damage rolling on movement even if it's not very much.