~Poll~ Longer fights <Do you want it?>

how so?

take your time explaining that with valid logic and evidence.



(incoming evasive deflection/projection maneuvers in 5... 4... 3...)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fusional

"oh, you don't like it when people let petty, ignorant personal biases cloud better judgment and their ability to think critically and discuss constructively and objectively. people like you suck QQ wahhhh"

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Thank you for proving my point.

At least the fights we have now is not brain dead, hack & slash, press X until the monster is dead.

I say leave EXP mobs to exp on so we can EXP Chain. Quest mobs and NM's should be more challenging.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fusional

you haven't the faintest understanding of how logic works, do you? of how to make reasonable, well-constructed arguments? of how to engage in productive discourse?

i'd call you a troll, but i'm entirely convinced now you're just catastrophically dense. (and probably 14 years old)

but, yeah. good job making baseless arguments with inaccurate and incorrect examples, then having absolutely nothing to say for yourself and nothing to counter with when your feeble excuse for an argument is categorically deconstructed.

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Of course I do I took a logic class :D. Hmmm Dense, naaa, gullible, yaaa. My argument was not inaccurate please tell me how it was inaccurate? You were talking about a boss, you didn't say it WAS one of the hardest things, you didn't say the OLD WoW, you just said WoW in general so, Iwas correct in every way

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rokien

Of course I do I took a logic class :D. Hmmm Dense, naaa, gullible, yaaa. My argument was not inaccurate please tell me how it was inaccurate? You were talking about a boss, you didn't say it WAS one of the hardest things, you didn't say the OLD WoW, you just said WoW in general so, Iwas correct in every way

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i've already demonstrated precisely how your argument was inaccurate. the fact that you either refused to read or process it doesn't make it any less valid, doesn't make it suddenly cease to exist. go back and read it. (specifically the parts using FFXI examples)

and no, you clearly didn't take a course in logic or critical thinking. if you did, you slept through it.

regardless, allow me to help. this TED talk should be very helpful and informative.

The fact that you are dodging my point means you need to learn how to be wrong.... I KNOW about ffxi... ffxi is not what it was back in the day, of course its easy to solo the old stuff, duh, everyone knows that.... god. I think the dense one is you here. The fact that you stated, that mob is harder than anything on ffxiv.. here let me go quote it for ya again. "nothing in this game even begins to rival Yogg Saron (WoW) in difficulty. not even remotely close." Yet, it was easily solo able.... Though Ifrit/moogle is impossible to solo, maybe you just need to choose your words better!~ next time you wanna try and argue.

I win!~ Shazzamel


Also, people who go out of their way to state their own accomplishments to try and prove a point.... does not justify the case. In fact it makes it worse.

Also, "and the vast... majority... of us... don't... like... mashing 111111111111? " That's your logic...... Don't bash someone else when you have even more flawed logic.

I think this discussion is kind of a paradox. It isn't as much about the time it takes to kill a monster as it is about strategy. When your party kills a monster (or in the current state of the game, a group of monsters) before you can use even one single ability then strategy cannot exist.

So how do you introduce strategy back into battles;
1. You increase the length of the battles by (I didn't say it wasn't a factor)
a. You increase a monsters HP.
b. You increase a monsters DEF.
c. You increase a monsters resistance to certain elements or spells.
d. You increase the monsters ability to dodge.
e. You get the idea, etc...

2. You make emnity management key to strategy.

3. You make HP/MP management key to strategy.

4. You make position important to damage and strategy.

5. You improve upon monster AI.
a. Give monsters the ability to strike pre-emptively or anticipate attacks, etc...

6. You require teamwork from players by creating synergies between abilities.
a. Weaponskills, Combos, Battle Regimens, etc...

I think XI had a 'nearly' perfect battle system. I will give you an example. Final Fantasy XI in The Crawler's Nest...

The set-up (or any similar combination)

Ninja, White Mage, Bard, Warrior, Samurai, Thief

Ninja: 'Holy cow! I have to keep shadows up to avoid damage. I have to provoke and do enough damage to keep hate all while the stupid crawler keeps spamming 'slow'.

White Mage: 'Darn it! That stupid crawler won't stop spamming 'slow' and that means I have to keep spamming 'erase'. I also have to keep everyone in the party healed, especially the tank and still have enough MP at the end to keep the pace consistent.

Bard: 'How am I going to keep all these people buffed? I have to keep 'ballad' on the mage. Keep 'madrigal' and 'minuet' on all the damage dealers. Not to mention I have to pull the next monster and 'lullaby' it so it is waiting once the party is done with the first one.'

Warrior: 'Stupid Ninja! We could kill this thing so much faster if he could keep hate from all my weaponskills, traits and abilities.

Samurai: 'I don't think I'm building TP fast enough. I better Meditate and use another weaponskill. Whoops, I pulled hate again. 'Seigan' + 'Third Eye'.

Theif: 'I wish this Samurai could turn the monster so I could get 'Sneak Attack' + 'Trick Attack' on the Ninja so he'd stop loosing hate for a minute.

I really hope I get my point across that it is more than simply timing that needs improving. This might be a lame example but all of these things worked in concert to make partying fun for me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rokien

(deliberately obtuse drivel)

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by fusional

note the dates of the videos posted. pay close attention to the link and video i provided versus yours. note the instance was added in the Wrath of the Lich King expansion, where the level cap was 80. note the video you posted is circa Cataclysm expansion, with a level cap of 85. note the enormous difference in health and damage in the videos. and the guy is in heroic firelands gear- a full 150 item levels higher than ulduar gear (226)...

so what you've basically done is take someone talking about time/level appropriate difficulty in content (say, Nidhogg from Zilart expansion in FFXI, level 75 content) and use a counter example that is absolutely not time/level appropriate (say, a level 95 character in Abyssea gear soloing level 75 Nidhogg). and that is your basis for a difficulty comparison?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by fusional

this TED talk should be very helpful and informative.

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anyway, i have better things to do than argue with a child. continue your petulant, febrile flailing or not. i honestly don't care. enjoy!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Threads

I think this discussion is kind of a paradox. It isn't as much about the time it takes to kill a monster as it is about strategy. When your party kills a monster (or in the current state of the game, a group of monsters) before you can use even one single ability then strategy cannot exist.

So how do you introduce strategy back into battles;
1. You increase the length of the battles (I didn't say it wasn't a factor)
a. You increase a monsters HP.
b. You increase a monsters DEF.
c. You increase a monsters resistance to certain elements or spells.
d. You increase the monsters ability to dodge.
e. You get the idea, etc...

2. You make emnity management key to strategy.

3. You make HP/MP management key to strategy.

4. You make position important to damage and strategy.

5. You improve upon monster AI.
a. Give monsters the ability to strike pre-emptively or anticipate attacks, etc...

I think XI had a 'nearly' perfect battle system. I will give you an example. The Crawler's Nest...

The set-up (or any similar combination)

Ninja, White Mage, Bard, Warrior, Samurai, Thief

Ninja: 'Holy cow! I have to keep shadows up to avoid damage. I have to provoke and do enough damage to keep hate all while the stupid crawler keeps spamming 'slow'.

White Mage: 'Darn it! That stupid crawler won't stop spamming 'slow' and that means I have to keep spamming 'erase'. I also have to keep everyone in the party healed, especially the tank and still have enough MP at the end to keep the pace consistent.

Bard: 'How am I going to keep all these people buffed? I have to keep 'ballad' on the mage. Keep 'madrigal' and 'minuet' on all the damage dealers. Not to mention I have to pull the next monster and 'lullaby' it so it is waiting once the party is done with the first one.'

Warrior: 'Stupid Ninja! We could kill this thing so much faster if he could keep hate from all my weaponskills, traits and abilities.

Samurai: 'I don't think I'm building TP fast enough. I better Meditate and use another weaponskill. Whoops, I pulled hate again. 'Seigan' + 'Third Eye'.

Theif: 'I wish this Samurai could turn the monster so I could get 'Sneak Attack' + 'Trick Attack' on the Ninja so he'd stop loosing hate for a minute.

I really hope I get my point across that it is more than simply timing that needs improving. This might be a lame example but all of these things worked in concert to make partying fun for me.

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It is a paradox, thank you for pointing it out.

At the end of the day, strategy and tactics require timing to execute. Not even Ifrit lasts long enough for any formula to really be executed (and I'm sure it's the same for Mog King as I've heard that Mog King is inherently easier).

To practice strategy requires a durable enemy; to practice tactics requires a ferocious enemy.

The trend I'm seeing with people who do not want longer fights is that they do not want less exp over time. EXP is too easy to get even outside of abusing the PL system. Someone who commits to leveling can conquer all DoW/DoM jobs in a month. The rate that you leveled when this game came out was perfect in my opinion. Longer fights would be great, this fast paced fighting becomes monotonous. Nothing is hard outside of moogle and ifrit which almost everyone has nearly perfected. I have friends who do ifrit and moogle after obtaining all weapons because it is the only thing that offers any sort of challenge. I really hope fights become longer, and at the expense of exp gain.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Threads

I think XI had a 'nearly' perfect battle system. I will give you an example. The Crawler's Nest...

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Great post, Threads. We can only hope that the developers have something similar in the works. Bring on the strategy!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Threads

Snip

1. You increase the length of the battles by (I didn't say it wasn't a factor)
a. You increase a monsters HP.
b. You increase a monsters DEF.
c. You increase a monsters resistance to certain elements or spells.
d. You increase the monsters ability to dodge.
e. You get the idea, etc...

2. You make emnity management key to strategy.

3. You make HP/MP management key to strategy.

4. You make position important to damage and strategy.

5. You improve upon monster AI.
a. Give monsters the ability to strike pre-emptively or anticipate attacks, etc...

6. You require teamwork from players by creating synergies between abilities.
a. Weaponskills, Combos, Battle Regimens, etc...

Ninja, White Mage, Bard, Warrior, Samurai, Thief

Snip

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These kind of analogy will work for party based content. Now in patch version 1.21 and beyond is where I believe the dev team made it clear that each job will fit a specific strategic role to play when players have to band together.

The question reminds, do you want classes to fit these roles when they are designed for mostly solo content? I think a lot of people is probably thinking of FFXI to much. (Which is not a bad or good thing)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Andrien

The dev team made it clear that each job will fit a specific strategic role to play when players have to band together.

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I'm trying to not get my hopes up on that one to be quite honest. Let's hope they will be able to pull it off, but personally, I don't think there will be a role for everyone, or rather, all roles being important enough to warrant not being replaced by the more useful one *coughpglcough*

Won't comment on normal mobs since I don't mind how fast they die (only because I don't have all classes at 50), but I would like to see some dragon or other bigger NM fights. SE will implement 2 more instanced raids in next patch which will help.

I don't think we can compare this with FFXI since the battle system was different. Do I want to go back to that style of fight? Maybe, if merit points were reintroduced and if all my classes are at 50 :D.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Andrien

These kind of analogy will work for party based content. Now in patch version 1.21 and beyond is where I believe the dev team made it clear that each job will fit a specific strategic role to play when players have to band together.

The question reminds, do you want classes to fit these roles when they are designed for mostly solo content? I think a lot of people is probably thinking of FFXI to much. (Which is not a bad or good thing)

---

I will start by saying that strategy is essential regardless if you play solo or in a party. The dynamics might change a little bit but the rules I list above are not meant to be exclusive to one or the other. I will admit to focusing my remarks towards party play but did not intend to limit them to partying only.

That said, I'm not sure I understand what you mean. It is my understanding that 'Jobs' are essentially 'Classes' optimized for party play. It don't think it means that 'Classes' will no longer be able to party or become meaningless. I could be wrong, I don't know for sure what the developers have planned.

I continue to hope that 'Classes' will be developed as stepping stone, where you learn the basics of your 'Class' with regards to gameplay and strategy. The ultimate goal; evolution into your 'Job'. Since after-all this is an MMO I don't believe solo play should be epitomized in everything. It should be a viable option but not the "be-all-and-end-all".

Regards

yeah but as long as we get an exp boost, so that way obody will complain at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Threads

I will start by saying that strategy is essential regardless if you play solo or in a party. The dynamics might change a little bit but the rules I list above are not meant to be exclusive to one or the other. I will admit to focusing my remarks towards party play but did not intend to limit them to partying only.

That said, I'm not sure I understand what you mean. It is my understanding that 'Jobs' are essentially 'Classes' optimized for party play. It don't think it means that 'Classes' will no longer be able to party or become meaningless. I could be wrong, I don't know for sure what the developers have planned.

I continue to hope that 'Classes' will be developed as stepping stone, where you learn the basics of your 'Class' with regards to gameplay and strategy. The ultimate goal; evolution into your 'Job'. Since after-all this is an MMO I don't believe solo play should be epitomized in everything. It should be a viable option but not the "be-all-and-end-all".

Regards

---

What I'm trying to say is, solo play is an option that we have. Jobs is brand new to us, and it is to my understanding that they specialize in specific roles for large scale content which we both seem to agree on. I'm being optimistic, jobs will really have to shine beyond classes with their exclusive abilities and with other jobs working together. Monsters will have to be the appropriate difficulty for them that will out shine class abilities.

Before patch 1.20 people were soloing Lv60+ monsters, and now it is not so likely common. Ultimately I think people are not considering the fact that there isn't many Lv50 content to choose from right now, and I think that is not a fair reason to adjust petty everyday mobs for grinding on classes either solo or in small parties.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fusional

i'm trying really hard not to be rude- but i'll go ahead and ask anyway. are you really stupid, or just really ignorant and jumping to irrational conclusions about something you know absolutely nothing about?

it could be a bit of both, but i'm gonna go ahead and give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume it's a case of the latter.

it's absolutely ridiculous that i have to explain this to you, but here goes.

note the dates of the videos posted. pay close attention to the link and video i provided versus yours. note the instance was added in the Wrath of the Lich King expansion, where the level cap was 80. note the video you posted is circa Cataclysm expansion, with a level cap of 85. note the enormous difference in health and damage in the videos. and the guy is in heroic firelands gear- a full 150 item levels higher than ulduar gear (226)...

so what you've basically done is take someone talking about time/level appropriate difficulty in content (say, Nidhogg from Zilart expansion in FFXI, level 75 content) and use a counter example that is absolutely not time/level appropriate (say, a level 95 character in Abyssea gear soloing level 75 Nidhogg). and that is your basis for a difficulty comparison?

for the love of christ, did you even READ the strat page? (obviously not)

so i ask again- are you irrational and ignorant, or just talking out of your ass? neither reflects particularly well on you, but i'm going to assume the latter again for your sake. because i'm such a nice guy.

so who exactly are you to judge difficulty and skill in videogames, anyway? i participated in server first kills of most HNM content in FFXI, and i'd say Bahamut V.2 and Vrtra were the biggest challenges. i participated in server first clears of SSC, TK, BT, and Hyjal, and just missed the mark on Sunwell. I cleared Ulduar hard modes in 10 and 25 man content, got my rusted and iron-bound proto drakes... and i did it *before* ICC, much less the increased level cap in Cata.

and none of my experiences in ffxiv even begin to rival any of my experiences in prior MMOs in terms of difficulty.

and tell me, what do you know of difficulty and skill, anyway? it took you over a MONTH to beat Moogle? and where's your speed achievement? show me your 80-85 DPS parses (from start to finish, not just phase 2).

see, here's the thing. when i talk about something being difficult, there's a pretty strong chance it's actually difficult. when i talk about something requiring skill, there's a pretty strong chance it actually requires skill. people took weeks and weeks to finally beat Yogg 25 regular, months to do the hard modes. the people who did that are clearly much better players than you. those people are also better than the majority of players who beat moogle within the first week. (again- more than a month before you)

i speak from a position of experience, you speak from a position of bias and ignorance. and yet you have the audacity to assume *you* are the expert witness here? keep dreaming, kid.

and p.s. thanks for underscoring *precisely* why i can't take 98% of this game's playerbase at all seriously.

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First of all, Fusional, you need to reevaluate your argument. You keep comparing XIV to WoW, and then you boast about your "feats" in XI as if the 3 are all connected...

I'm gonna hit you back with one of those condescending, rhetorical questions you seem to love so much. Are you making irrational statements on purpose, or are you just ignorant? "I'm a nice guy, so I'll assume the latter" -lol, don't mean to be a prick, but just thought you should "see yourself."

No one here, as far as I can tell, is saying that WoW is easier than XIV. Just b/c they dis WoW and *compare* it to XIV does not mean that they're saying **XIV** is harder. In fact, most of them are raging about how easy, and dull, XIV is in it's current state. When ppl insult XIV, using WoW as a reference, it shouldn't be difficult for you to figure out their logic:

XIV sucks a$$ just like WoW does, THUS adjustments need to be made to bring about the same challenges we faced in **XI** (not that difficult to grasp).

WoW is easy *COMPARED TO XI* , not XIV.....ok? Stop comparing WoW's content difficulty to XIV's content difficulty. Neither of them are challenging (compared to XI). That is the argument being made here.


It's like you're arguing against yourself....I think everyone agrees, on a scale of 1-100, WoW is like a 50, and XIV is a 10. That's not the issue, though. We want XIV in the same league as XI. And seeing how "familar" you are w/ XI's content, I think you can agree that WoW doesn't even begin to compare (Pre-Abbysea).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dragon

This reminds me of my EQOA days when people would always zone the mobs to the local guard NPC because they couldn't handle said mobs. >:o

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Good ole EQOA, Man I got some good memories there on ye ole "ferrins Hope" .....God I loved that game and the way they had bard and its CMs set up.

Sorry about getting off topic, but the nastalgia came pooring in after reading his post.

I think a lot of this would be alleviated if they put in some more roaming NMs that people can give a damn about and mini bosses in areas that you couldn't just spam to death.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vackashken

I think a lot of this would be alleviated if they put in some more roaming NMs that people can give a damn about and mini bosses in areas that you couldn't just spam to death.

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I don't think adding more NMs will fix this. Like I said in my previous posts it is much more complex than that. I think it would certainly be a step in the right direction but battle strategy won't be improved by simply adding harder monsters. Even current bosses in instanced content feel lacking somehow.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vackashken

I think a lot of this would be alleviated if they put in some more roaming NMs that people can give a damn about and mini bosses in areas that you couldn't just spam to death.

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Dude lol.....if anything, the NMs can be the ones you spam to death. A tremendous amount of [most] ppl's time is going to be spent leveling classes/jobs. Why would they want to subject themselves to a, virtually endless, spam fest?

Because I have been gone for a while, did they say anthing how normal mobs are going to play out in 2.0? Like, are they going to be tougher to kill?

The duration of a fight doesn't matter as long as exp is increased in a linear fashion. Would it really make any sort of difference if you killed a dodo in 10 seconds and got 300 exp, or if you had to spend 30 seconds but got 900 exp?

With that in mind, I would like to propose that we should welcome a great variety in battle durations, so that we can have a more varied gameplay experience. As long as exp:time ratios are maintained.

Personally, I would actually welcome it if I could spend 15 minutes on a single fight, and be awarded 40k exp from it at the end. Of course, longer fights also involve bigger risks. If you die in a 1 minute fight, you lose at most 1 minute. If you lose at the 14th minute of a 15 minute fight, you lose 14 minutes. Because of that, a sort of incentive would probably be reasonable to ask for to make it worth the risk. Maybe in the form of more useful drops than you would get from weakling mobs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mirage

The duration of a fight doesn't matter as long as exp is increased in a linear fashion. Would it really make any sort of difference if you killed a dodo in 10 seconds and got 300 exp, or if you had to spend 30 seconds but got 900 exp?

With that in mind, I would like to propose that we should welcome a great variety in battle durations, so that we can have a more varied gameplay experience. As long as exp:time ratios are maintained.

Personally, I would actually welcome it if I could spend 15 minutes on a single fight, and be awarded 40k exp from it at the end.

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Ya, I said the exp would increase with the mob somewhere in the thread~ Longer fights are better, it leaves more time for something to go wrong. Which will keep people on their toes.

Not to mention, it would feel a lot cooler to kill a huge dragon for exp than a small dodo.

That's an issue I have with certain MMOs actually. Why is there so terrible mob progression? Why are the strong mobs you fight at level 40 as puny-looking as the ones you fought at level 10? Can't you round up all the weak-looking mobs in the starter areas, then populate the high level areas with the tough shit?

The lv55 Dormouse hits you for 1000 points of damage
You were defeated by the Dormouse

Doesn't exactly make you feel very heroic when you just killed a 5 feet tall raptor a second ago.

I realize that there is some sort of progression in tough-looking-ness of monsters, but I wish there was even more of it. Why not make the level 20 crabs 2 feet tall, and make the level 50 ones 5 feet tall? Why not add some more details to some of the models, like making some have considerably more spiky shells than others?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Athaya

Leave the long fights for NM and boss battles.

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This.

Should really vary between bosses, though. Not every boss should be heroic Lich King in length. Average boss fight being between 10-15 minutes in 24-man raids seems reasonable enough, I think.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

This.

Should really vary between bosses, though. Not every boss should be heroic Lich King in length. Average boss fight being between 10-15 minutes in 24-man raids seems reasonable enough, I think.

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10-15min fight is not that long of a boss fight.... go play Dragons Dogma and Fight Ur Dragon Online right now. Ya, You won't kill em in 10-15mins, soo fun too!~
Most people probably can't kill em in 15mins offline either, sooo ya, we need longer fights. if a single player game beats an mmorpg on fights, that's sad.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rokien

10-15min fight is not that long of a boss fight.

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It's reasonable when you have a dungeon where you're going to have to fight somewhere between 7 and 12 bosses (unless you're expecting the developers to continue the one boss per instance nonsense). Even FFXI eventually started putting in enrage timers (though theirs are a bit longer because XI's combat system is as slow as molases) in order to place something resembling a time limit on each fight. 15 minutes would already be longer than WoW, as their encounters all have a 10-minute enrage barring Lich King, which was designed to be a longer fight. Would also fit XIV's battle pace, which is faster than XI but nowhere near as quick as WoW's.

As of right now, pure DPS is all that matters. With the current system, debuffs as well as tactics such as positioning, stunning to prevent WS's from going off, kiting, anything in general really are made completely useless. That not only makes combat feel dull, but also harms the creativity and viability of interesting class types. Classes like Green Mage would completely flounder. Longer, more varied battles would alleviate those issues.

wth who brought this dead thread back to life?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jocko

As of right now, pure DPS is all that matters. With the current system, debuffs as well as tactics such as positioning, stunning to prevent WS's from going off, kiting, anything in general really are made completely useless. That not only makes combat feel dull, but also harms the creativity and viability of interesting class types.

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Stuns would have to be on lower cooldowns, or introduce interrupts and give them the lower cooldowns so that the stuns can then be used for crowd control instead.

Debuffing has to get away from the asinine design of FFXI, and that requires re-imagining a whole bunch of the spells. Paralyze preventing actions on proc is OP'd. Silence preventing spell casting is OP'd. Amnesia as we knew it in XI was OP'd from a player character perspective (hence why players never got access to it). I would even venture and say we should shift towards group buffs provided by different classes (both War and Magic disciplines), and perhaps design debuff potency so that in a 24-man raid the debuffs stack up to a certain point to avoid overlap. Something like DRK using Riot Blade to reduce defense, then RDM using Dia to lower defense even further, and both effects stacking. Say you don't have a DRK but have a DNC instead in that DPS slot; then you can have them use Box step to help your group reach that Defense Down cap on a boss level mob.

Quote:

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Classes like Green Mage would completely flounder. Longer, more varied battles would alleviate those issues.

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I disagree. Green Mage would suffer if it was limited solely to buffs and debuffs. It would have to be (IMO) designed as a HoT-focused healer to enter the healer roster alongside WHM, with some buffs to help the group out (+Attack, +Spell Power).

I agree with alot of people here

FFXI style fights but with some of the speed introduced from FFXIV

TBH reason I dont party anymore since they sped up fighting in 1.21 is because the fights dont require any skill at all its just another hurdle rather than a learning experience (which levelling should be).

People who get to lvl 50 in this new system dont know how to use their jobs properly simply because they never get to practice unless on an actual boss to which most linkshells get frustrated at you then weh hey rage quit !.

So in conclusion

Longer fights would alleviate the problem noted above and give those of us who enjoy battles another thing to enjoy. you knew in xi when u had a good tank or a good healer etc. and it was a great feeling being re invited back to parties based on your reputation for being good at your job.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Debuffing has to get away from the asinine design of FFXI, and that requires re-imagining a whole bunch of the spells. Paralyze preventing actions on proc is OP'd. Silence preventing spell casting is OP'd. Amnesia as we knew it in XI was OP'd from a player character perspective (hence why players never got access to it).

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Paralyze does not have to prevent actions on proc, rather, giving each action a chance to be interrupted on use seems perfectly reasonable [Edit: I just realized how dumb what I said was :p]. Preventing spell casting isn't OP at all, really. Not every mob has to be susceptible to every debuff, and those that are can have differing amounts of resistance. Bringing a class with silence to a boss that is somewhat susceptible is a valid strategy, sacrificing potential dps for potential utility. Another example, if mobs could be grouped (Much like they are in traditional FF titles), debuffs like silence could be used to CC certain mobs while others are taken out first, having a class' playstyle revolve around keeping specific mobs locked down.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Say you don't have a DRK but have a DNC instead in that DPS slot; then you can have them use Box step to help your group reach that Defense Down cap on a boss level mob.

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To me, that sounds like the homogenization of classes that we're trying to avoid. Not every class needs to be good (Or even viable) at every facet of the game. Having classes excel in particular areas creates class uniqueness and elements of strategy with class formation. You can argue that people disliked being locked out of content due to elitism in XI, but XIV is designed around having multiple capped jobs fairly quickly, so I don't find that an issue. An area where debuffs shine, and an area where they don't. Bring a Green Mage to one, and something else to the other. I don't see a problem with this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Duelle

It would have to be (IMO) designed as a HoT-focused healer to enter the healer roster alongside WHM, with some buffs to help the group out (+Attack, +Spell Power).

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Then it's not a Green Mage

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Originally Posted by Jocko

Then it's not a Green Mage

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Green Mage is pretty much impossible to implement since WHM and BRD have all the buffs and BLM has all the debuffs and crowd control.

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

Green Mage is pretty much impossible to implement since WHM and BRD have all the buffs and BLM has all the debuffs and crowd control.

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Blind, Oil, Silence, Poison, Confuse, Disable, Zombie, Mini, Frog, Petrify

Float, Berserk, Invis, Astra

And of course, mace weapon skills focused on crippling foes. There's plenty of stuff to work with when making a Green Mage

Anything would be better than the faceoll that pople call combat currently.

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Originally Posted by Jocko

Paralyze does not have to prevent actions on proc, rather, giving each action a chance to be interrupted on use seems perfectly reasonable.

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I'd be more for it giving the mob penalties to attack and accuracy.

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Preventing spell casting isn't OP at all, really. Not every mob has to be susceptible to every debuff, and those that are can have differing amounts of resistance. Bringing a class with silence to a boss that is somewhat susceptible is a valid strategy, sacrificing potential dps for potential utility.

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While creating a niche that makes that class required. That's something we should try to avoid so that you can have several group comps that are capable of doing the content. I'd rather have the melee DPS organize themselves into an interrupts rotation or something along those lines.

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Another example, if mobs could be grouped (Much like they are in traditional FF titles), debuffs like silence could be used to CC certain mobs while others are taken out first, having a class' playstyle revolve around keeping specific mobs locked down.

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Sleep, Bind, Toad can be used as CC. Sleep and Toad could break on damage while Bind could have a damage threshold before it wears off.

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To me, that sounds like the homogenization of classes that we're trying to avoid. Not every class needs to be good (Or even viable) at every facet of the game. Having classes excel in particular areas creates class uniqueness and elements of strategy with class formation. You can argue that people disliked being locked out of content due to elitism in XI, but XIV is designed around having multiple capped jobs fairly quickly, so I don't find that an issue.

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It's still an issue because if I want to come to a dungeon as a Dragoon, then I should be able to come as a Dragoon without being a hinderance to the group. If my prayers are answered and Red Mage is designed around front line combat+magic in this game (check my sig for the link), then you can damn well expect to see me to show up to everything as Red Mage.

We're way past the point where you can force people to level jobs they want nothing to do with, armoury system or no. Niche gameplay sucks and we should avoid recreating the party dynamics of FFXI.

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Then it's not a Green Mage

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One-trick ponies no longer cut it in MMOs. Something has to give. Geomancer was recently re-imagined as a debuff/buffbot despite being the guy that could equip a big axe and had free elemental spells. I don't see why Green Mage couldn't be re-imagined into something more fitting for an MMO.

Not a fan of the kill a mass number of mobs in as little time as possible to instantly get exp chain 12.

would like more skill based combat for leveling. leves i think are fine as is, but the world mobs could use some beefing up.

Taking three minutes to kill one monster is fun?

No. We don't need longer fights (not against normal monsters, anyway). We need more structured combat. The same kind of structure and strategy we require to take down primals should be replicated (on a much much smaller scale) when it comes to fighting world mobs.

Case in point: djiggas. Used to be, we had to be very careful when fighting these, because every time they were hit with a weapon skill, they'd counter with nasty AoE poison. Too much WS spam, and you'd quickly wipe your party. They still do this, as far as I know, but it doesn't matter anymore, because we got buffed and they didn't.