Just another thread asking for in-game parsing for ps4 users

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Originally Posted by NinjaTaru72

Yes, it doesnt matter if they are helping, if they are breaking the rules, then they are breaking the rules. And deserve whatever punishment they are given.

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And as are you by filing excessive and false reports.

Unfortunately for you, SE isn't going to ban people based on "video evidence" or "guide evidence" that they use parsers, nor are they going to ban people unless they actively harass other players on multiple occasions, which, at those point, it's more they get punished for the harassment aspect, not the parser aspect. Most people get is a "slap on the wrist" or a "stern talking to" in the GM Gaol (see the reddit post someone made after they were reported just for mentioning that they had "parsed purple" and the GM humored them with a question about pineapple pizzas) because SE is aware that players use parsers, and they turn a blind eye to them as long as people aren't jerks about it. Which is the majority of the parsing community.

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Originally Posted by NinjaTaru72

But, alas, people are gonna be mad at me no matter what I say. It's what happens for being on the end of the extreme. So meh.

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No one's mad because your opinion is an extreme one. Lots of people have extreme opinions. They're mad because it's riddled with hypocrisy. You say you dislike parsers because they're used to harass players, while actively trying to get players who may be innocent banned. Then when you get called out on it, your response is:

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Originally Posted by NinjaTaru72

If its false I'm sorry, but oh well, I'd rather file a report against someone who could be using one and potentially abusing players.

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In other words: it's fine to abuse a few players to stop player abuse. The fact that you don't see, or refuse to see, why this is a douche move is the reason for all the heat you're getting.

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Originally Posted by NinjaTaru72

Everyone everywhere does not have a parser. I know I don't not does my girlfriend. Mater of fact, while I don't mind criticism, if anyone says anything that makes it sound like there's even a a tiny chance of them having a parser and/or using it on a run I'm on I report them. That crap doesn't need to be here and it's annoying enough knowing people still use them.

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I'm going to save this post somewhere every time someone wants to whine about how toxic parsing is. This is toxic behavior, and it's basically the norm for anti-parsing. "Report anyone who criticizes me if I think they have a parser."

Also reading "I don't mind criticism" after reading the rest of your awful posts definitely makes that one of the biggest lies I've read this week.

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Originally Posted by Shihen

In other words: it's fine to abuse a few players to stop player abuse. The fact that you don't see, or refuse to see, why this is a douche move is the reason for all the heat you're getting.

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Furthermore, she's actively harassing other players who aren't even harming anyone. As she said, she's not reporting players who are harassing other players (which is something everyone would agree with), she's reporting players based on her feeling or interpretation of something they may have said... You literally couldn't behave worse towards your fellow players even if you were spouting insults to people all day long.

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Originally Posted by Baka_Neko1

Despite being a "no" everyone everywhere has a parser and can look at their active read-out to know exactly how much damage they are doing and when. As a ps4 player, i can only ask others how i did. At the end. Knowing how subtle changes can affect my parse is vital to mastering a class. Like say on BLM, knowing when to throw thunder3 instead of foul....and stuff

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thats ok, but as you can see for yourself in this thread theres a lot of people who will always come up with something like "carrying bad people" or "oooh my feelings are hurt that much that coz i had to carry someone whos isnt that good as me and my run took 3 min longer :P we need parser to show those baaaaaaaaaaaaaad people how bad they really are :P" and so on , wich has nothing to do with your initial request for a parser.

As long theres people like that , we are not gona have an official parser^^

That is why many are calling for Personal Parsers, you know so only the user can see their own damage, how can this be toxic like say a parser where everyone can see?
I would love an add on for parsing but this topic which has been around for a while i do not believe it would ever come to reality

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Originally Posted by Maero

That is why many are calling for Personal Parsers, you know so only the user can see their own damage, how can this be toxic like say a parser where everyone can see?
I would love an add on for parsing but this topic which has been around for a while i do not believe it would ever come to reality

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See, even with all my "toxicness" I had agreed to this, and even mentioned it, I none of my posts.

Personal parsers won't allow you to berate other players.

Oh i was not quoting you, just putting it out there that if by whatever miracle it happens, personal parsers would be the way to go and would help players.
The other parsers that currently already exist i can see some abuse

If Square were to only give us personal parses, people would be quick to ask for screenshots of said parses to compare and to analyze, as well as to give feedback. The lack of transparency might cause worse situations and behaviour imho.

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Originally Posted by Maero

That is why many are calling for Personal Parsers, you know so only the user can see their own damage, how can this be toxic like say a parser where everyone can see?

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Since enrages are a thing in group content, there should be a group parser available. The group parser should only be limited to party finder groups, so that players could choose to join or not to join groups that are using one. Or, it could be limited to only Raid Finder content (Savage and Extremes), which is the only (current) content with DPS checks, and the people who join this content should be willing to do their part for the part DPS.

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Originally Posted by ovIm

If Square were to only give us personal parses, people would be quick to ask for screenshots of said parses to compare and to analyze, as well as to give feedback. The lack of transparency might cause worse situations and behaviour imho.

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Yup, the parsers should definitely be group parsers, for transparency is the only way to guarantee fairness.

And again, as a reminder, implementing a parser still does not mean any harassment would be allowed.

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Originally Posted by NinjaTaru72

See, even with all my "toxicness" I had agreed to this, and even mentioned it, I none of my posts.

Personal parsers won't allow you to berate other players.

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You'd graciously stop reporting to ban players when it's something you'd agree with? Wow, what a hero.

Personal parsers would be utterly useless without comparison to the community. Meaningless numbers would be meaningless.

So no, you're wrong again. They would absolutely allow people to berate other players. That's not the reason anyone should be advocating for personal parsers.

I'm actually embarrassed for you at this point. The loudest voice in this thread couldn't be more hypocritical, poorly researched or flat wrong.

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Originally Posted by Tigerlilley

You'd graciously stop reporting to ban players when it's something you'd agree with? Wow, what a hero.

Personal parsers would be utterly useless without comparison to the community. Meaningless numbers would be meaningless.

So no, you're wrong again. They would absolutely allow people to berate other players. That's not the reason anyone should be advocating for personal parsers.

I'm actually embarrassed for you at this point. The loudest voice in this thread couldn't be more hypocritical, poorly researched or flat wrong.

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No, see this is why its hard for people to get behind parsers when people talk like this. A personal parser will allow someone to see what works better for gear and their class and gauge whether or not something worked out better vs mechanics but most importantly "improve". The problem with Comparing to others is a disparity in ilvls and situation. A full time off tank is going to do a lot more than a full time main tank etc...

Personal parsers are the best way to go about it and leaves it up to the player to decide how and if they want to use it. That is all there is to it.

There is NO reason anyone would want to see the parse of anyone other than yourself unless you want to judge said player's performance or to rub your e-peen.

Both of those reasons are toxic and have no place in this game.
So yeah, outside of personal parsing, this will NEVER be implemented.

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

No, see this is why its hard for people to get behind parsers when people talk like this. A personal parser will allow someone to see what works better for gear and their class and gauge whether or not something worked out better vs mechanics but most importantly "improve". The problem with Comparing to others is a disparity in ilvls and situation. A full time off tank is going to do a lot more than a full time main tank etc...

Personal parsers are the best way to go about it and leaves it up to the player to decide how and if they want to use it. That is all there is to it.

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Except that personal parsers would be completely useless in content where parsing actually matters: that is, current Extreme Primals and Savage Raids (and soon to be the Super Savage/Ultimate raid). You can't look at group DPS in personal parsers, and asking for all 8 members to post said parses in some public chat channel is just completely unnecessary work when a group parser for such content already has all the information there and readily available. Group DPS is what matters when it comes to clearing these fights, and meeting the enrage timer. Sure, to an extent, personal DPS is also important, but without a group parser, statics and parties would have no easy, readily accessible way of knowing whether the thing that was causing them to fail is individual DPS or group DPS; individual failings with healing; individual failings with tanking. The list goes on.

Parsers don't matter for "casual" content that don't have enrages (e.g., 4-man dungeons and 24-man alliance raids). But they do matter in 8-man content. They are used for personal improvement, yes, but a pervasive, primary function of parsers is use in static/8-man settings to judge group DPS and see if the party has what it takes to clear the content, or if they need to work on something. This is where using parsers in conjunction with a certain website becomes invaluably useful. I know that, without using both resources when analyzing my own static's performance in V3S progression, we would not have been able to pinpoint the issues that were holding us back, and work on fixing them.

That's something an individual parser cannot give. While I'm not opposed to the idea of individual, personal parsers, I think that content reliant on good group DPS in order to meet enrage should call for a party parser. Again, it's not like SE is going to suddenly make harassing others a-okay with the implementation of such a thing. I doubt they'll ever change their stance on parsers or implement one in-game, considering that arguments like this always arise when someone, like the OP of the thread, just innocently requests a parser for personal use, but I still like to throw in my two cents into the discussions. It's tiring seeing one side claim how "bad" parsers are, and how "toxic" everyone that parses is; such sweeping generalizations really irk me. There are, of course, bad apples in every bunch, but people shouldn't blame the tool because those bad apples use it incorrectly.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

There is NO reason anyone would want to see the parse of anyone other than yourself unless you want to judge said player's performance or to rub your e-peen.

Both of those reasons are toxic and have no place in this game.
So yeah, outside of personal parsing, this will NEVER be implemented.

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See what I wrote above. Personal parsers would be completely useless in 8-man content that actually calls for decent group DPS to meet enrage timers.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

There is NO reason anyone would want to see the parse of anyone other than yourself unless you want to judge said player's performance or to rub your e-peen.

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Except when your group is hitting enrage timers, or not burning down important targets fast enough...or if someone is just plainly slacking.

Have also seen the infrequent time when someone else was curious of their own parse in groups.

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Originally Posted by DRHaymaker

Except when your group is hitting enrage timers, or not burning down important targets fast enough...or if someone is just plainly slacking.

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SE's instance on POINTING FINGERS and LOOKING FOR WHO'S TO BLAME on wipes always was and always will be that this is toxicity. Most of the times people are not SLACKING, they simply are less skilled. And the game is meant to be inclusive, not exclusive. Kicking people from parties due to low performance never was and will never be endorsed by the devs. You can kiss that hope goodbye.

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Originally Posted by DRHaymaker

Have also seen the infrequent time when someone else was curious of their own parse in groups.

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That can be solved with a personal parser

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I doubt they'll ever change their stance on parsers or implement one in-game, considering that arguments like this always arise when someone, like the OP of the thread, just innocently requests a parser for personal use.

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And everytime this discussion arises, the people that want a parse always present good arguments for the implementation of them.
While the people that don't wan't a parse always bring back the old "I've seen harassment that one day when the planets aligned, therefore parsers are bad!"
It' get's very old.

I swear i've never seen a good argument to NOT implement parses in all the threads i've read over the years.

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Originally Posted by DRHaymaker

Except when your group is hitting enrage timers, or not burning down important targets fast enough...or if someone is just plainly slacking.

Have also seen the infrequent time when someone else was curious of their own parse in groups.

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If you honestly cannot tell when someone's slacking off, unless you resort to raw numbers, I question your level of attention to the game.
It's not hard to notice, lets say, the SMN that's only throwing out Ruin spells, or the DRG that's only using one combo rotation.
(And yes I'm using those 2 as a example, not to point fingers, but because I've personally seen people like that through all my time in the DF)

And a personal parser would most deffinetely work if someone is just curious about their own DPS output, although I guess it wouldnt work if what you're actually interested in, is how your DPS compares to everyone else. A.k.a rubbing your e-peen

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

SE's instance on POINTING FINGERS and LOOKING FOR WHO'S TO BLAME on wipes always was and always will be that this is toxicity. Most of the times people are not SLACKING, they simply are less skilled. And the game is meant to be inclusive, not exclusive. Kicking people from parties due to low performance never was and will never be endorsed by the devs. You can kiss that hope goodbye.

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There's nothing toxic about statics discussing and giving out constructive criticisms to its members when they fail to clear a floor due to low DPS/failing to meet enrage. And it very well CAN be attributed to people slacking off, just as much as it can be attributed to personal skill. If someone is a hinderance to a party (this is including static groups), if the group makes the decision to remove them in favor for someone else who CAN successfully clear the content, that is not toxicity, nor it is harassment.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Except that personal parsers would be completely useless in content where parsing actually matters: that is, current Extreme Primals and Savage Raids (and soon to be the Super Savage/Ultimate raid). You can't look at group DPS in personal parsers, and asking for all 8 members to post said parses in some public chat channel is just completely unnecessary work when a group parser for such content already has all the information there and readily available. Group DPS is what matters when it comes to clearing these fights, and meeting the enrage timer. Sure, to an extent, personal DPS is also important, but without a group parser, statics and parties would have no easy, readily accessible way of knowing whether the thing that was causing them to fail is individual DPS or group DPS; individual failings with healing; individual failings with tanking. The list goes on.

Parsers don't matter for "casual" content that don't have enrages (e.g., 4-man dungeons and 24-man alliance raids). But they do matter in 8-man content. They are used for personal improvement, yes, but a pervasive, primary function of parsers is use in static/8-man settings to judge group DPS and see if the party has what it takes to clear the content, or if they need to work on something. This is where using parsers in conjunction with a certain website becomes invaluably useful. I know that, without using both resources when analyzing my own static's performance in V3S progression, we would not have been able to pinpoint the issues that were holding us back, and work on fixing them.

That's something an individual parser cannot give. While I'm not opposed to the idea of individual, personal parsers, I think that content reliant on good group DPS in order to meet enrage should call for a party parser. Again, it's not like SE is going to suddenly make harassing others a-okay with the implementation of such a thing. I doubt they'll ever change their stance on parsers or implement one in-game, considering that arguments like this always arise when someone, like the OP of the thread, just innocently requests a parser for personal use, but I still like to throw in my two cents into the discussions. It's tiring seeing one side claim how "bad" parsers are, and how "toxic" everyone that parses is; such sweeping generalizations really irk me. There are, of course, bad apples in every bunch, but people shouldn't blame the tool because those bad apples use it incorrectly.

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I'm sorry I just can't fathom how you can think a personal parser would be useless in a raid environment because "group dps". Being able to see your own DPS realtime vs mechanics and gear changes is the best way to go about it is called "improvement". If at the end of the fight it could show even more statistics like your crits etc... Then all the better.

Group DPS is composed of individual DPS's. Your speaking of marginal situations like for example keeping a tank in tank stance so a healer could get off some extra dps at a certain part in a fight actually working out a little better "Group DPS". Yeah I get it, but that fails in comparison to personal parser for improving the DPS that matters real time. PS4 players receiving a number at the end of the fight does not actually help them in the way that a personal parser would.

I would go out on a limb to say that if personal parsers were released for real time combat evaluation, even people who use act would use these instead to improve and use act for other reasons.

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Originally Posted by Vocal_Night

"I've seen harassment that one day when the planets aligned, therefore parsers are bad!"

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Actually, all games that feature a parser saw a steady and sure rise on general toxicity. WoW is a CLEAR example where the advent of parsers made the community MUCH less welcoming and inclusive.
Hell, this game here was a much nicer place before ACT and FFLogs existed and became widespread throughout the community.

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

I'm sorry I just can't fathom how you can think a personal parser would be useless in a raid environment

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He wants to pinpoint who's the person with low DPS so he can KICK him.
That was and will always be the REAL reason behind people wanting SE to endorse parsing.

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

I'm sorry I just can't fathom how you can think a personal parser would be useless in a raid environment because "group dps".

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Please go back and actually read my post in its entirety. Personal parsers will not display the DPS of a group as a whole, and asking for people to post their personal parses in some public chat channel (like a Discord) for comprehensive analysis is a lot of unnecessary and extra work. Why add in all that when you can implement a group parser for content that calls for it, and have all the information readily available right there. I just can't fathom how you fail to see the convenience of such a feature.

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Being able to see your own DPS realtime vs mechanics and gear changes is the best way to go about it is called "improvement". If at the end of the fight it could show even more statistics like your crits etc... Then all the better.

Group DPS is composed of individual DPS's. Your speaking of marginal situations like for example keeping a tank in tank stance so a healer could get off some extra dps at a certain part in a fight actually working out a little better "Group DPS". Yeah I get it, but that fails in comparison to personal parser for improving the DPS that matters real time. PS4 players receiving a number at the end of the fight does not actually help them in the way that a personal parser would.

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You talk about "real time" DPS numbers, but group parsers would STILL provide said realtime numbers, except with ALL of the party members. They would provide all the information a personal parser would, plus more, in content where said "more" matters.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

He wants to pinpoint who's the person with low DPS so he can KICK him.
That was and will always be the REAL reason behind people wanting SE to endorse parsing.

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*She. And you must be clairvoyant to know my intentions for wanting SE to condone parser use. You know, aside from never having partied with me, met me, spoke with me, or even interacted with me outside of this thread. Talk about "toxicity".... blindly judging others and making these sweeping generalizations is about as "toxic" as it gets.

For the record, the only time I kick people from parties is when they're being a jerk for literally no reason. I have never kicked on account of "low numbers" or to "stroke my own e-peen." I don't need that sort of validation in life, thanks.

I read your post in its entirety, the problem is your trying to discredit the use of a personal parser when it obviously has uses in raid environment while claiming act is more helpful. The problem here is that your more concerned with analyzing a problem or finding the weakest link instead of overall individual player improvement. Act cannot do this realtime. Looking at charts and graphs is one thing, seeing it while its happening is another.

Sorry ma'am I'm done. I agree to disagree at this point.

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

I read your post in its entirety, the problem is your trying to discredit the use of a personal parser when it obviously has uses in raid environment while claiming act is more helpful. The problem here is that your more concerned with analyzing a problem or finding the weakest link instead of overall individual player improvement. Act cannot do this realtime. Looking at charts and graphs is one thing, seeing it while its happening is another.

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Because if you are in content with a party that continues to fail to meet enrage, sometimes you have to analyze the performance in such a way to find what's wrong, and that includes finding if there are any "weakest links" and working on focused improvement for that member, or replacing them.

I never made any mentions about ACT specifically. I was talking about implemented group parsers compared to your implemented personal parser, which, since you mention ACT, can be configured to show just personal DPS. I'm not trying to get anyone to "agree" with me; I'm just trying to show players that this unnecessary hostile attitude that has been displayed by some of the anti-parser people in this thread, among others that have popped up on the forum in the past, is just as toxic than the few individuals that act like jerks, and use parsers to do so.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I have never kicked on account of "low numbers" or to "stroke my own e-peen." I don't need that sort of validation in life, thanks.

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And this is a perfect capsule of why we cannot have a debate regarding parsing as a tool to improve your own performance.
Because while you claim to not have kicked people for "low numbers", I know another MMO where the late game scene is absolutely infested with that type of attitude, quite possibly in part because the developers gave everyone free reign to do it. And that game is WoW.

Perform bellow X number? Kicked and blacklisted
Perform bellow X class? Kicked and blacklisted
Just barely bellow the "max" output for your class? kicked and blacklisted

But dont think they'll just remove you quietly. People will make damn sure, and in great detail, that you know how much you "suck", and should quit playing.

And that is despite the fact that you still managed the content. Alot of people just get pissy because Ted who performed 500 bellow what's "ideal" maybe added 30 more seconds to the fight.

So forgive me for punishing a small but very vocal minority, when I've witnessed through experience that people in general cannot be trusted with something like a group parser, unless it's atleast under the condition of "dont get caught harassing people with it"

The level of toxiciting coming from this thread from "non-toxi" player and from "toxic" players. Oh wait. They are all humans and will have aome disagreementa and want to always impose their beliefs on someone else. Human nature. Even without parse I encountered horrible ppl and they were one of those so called nice ppl in the community. People don't behave the same woth everybody and every single day. If SE would be more involved with the in game interaction, people could actually mention about any harassment or unjust done to them instead of this debate that only have people trying to impose what they think it qill be better for the every single player.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I'm just trying to show players that this unnecessary hostile attitude that has been displayed by some of the anti-parser people in this thread, among others that have popped up on the forum in the past, is just as toxic than the few individuals that act like jerks, and use parsers to do so.

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No I'm not content with a party that continues to fail to meet enrage but I'm also not content with finding the weakest link. We have different mindsets, that's all. I don't go around asking for DPS numbers or bother with others DPS. Implementing group parsers is cumbersome since things like act already exist.

I'm trying to explain to you that individual player improvement should be prioritized or the ultimate goal of a parse, if you immediately start to analyze for the problem or "weakest link" among "group DPS" you are falling into the antiparser communities trap. You should strive for individual player improvement at their own discretion and a toggleable, realtime, dps parser is the best way to go about it. Again we disagree but its whatever at this point.

Edit: Honestly PS4 players have nothing, the thread should have stayed on topic for them.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

SE's instance on POINTING FINGERS and LOOKING FOR WHO'S TO BLAME on wipes always was and always will be that this is toxicity.

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Then SE (if you're quoting them) and you don't know what toxicity is. Blame is either shared or on an individual level, but there's always a reason. I'd rather know who is weak link, so we can find out if they're willing to fix whatever problem they have, than resent the group in general because I don't know who is under performing - that's closer to toxicity than "Don't call me out, bro". Stop thinking of every instance as a witch hunt.

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Most of the times people are not SLACKING, they simply are less skilled.

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You're arguing semantics.

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And the game is meant to be inclusive, not exclusive.

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The game IS inclusive. Your problem isn't with the game though - your problem is a social one. And if you want to go down that road, the amount of shit that gets flung around in a group the instant someone sees Bonus is far more toxic.

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Kicking people from parties due to low performance never was and will never be endorsed by the devs. You can kiss that hope goodbye.

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Well... two things. First, has ever directly encouraged that saying "Git gud or git out". Second, I'm pretty sure there's been players reporting that GMs told them they can't punish someone that has a "different playstyle" when kicked due to low performance. They don't have to endorse it for players to be within their rights to kick you out if you're underperforming.

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Originally Posted by Lazaruz

If you honestly cannot tell when someone's slacking off, unless you resort to raw numbers, I question your level of attention to the game.

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The idea that you should pay attention to your own rotation, CDs, AoEs, Positioning AND simultaneously pay attention to 7 other to make sure their doing their job, AND know said other jobs so you know if they're not doing something right is silly...

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It's not hard to notice [...] or the DRG that's only using one combo rotation.

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Except it is, if you turn down the animations of other people and hide the debuffs of other people... also there's only so many buffs that will appear. And before you say "Well change it so you can then!", I could do that, but I'm positive there's those that can't, either for QoL reasons, or their system just isn't capable of handling multiple effects at the same time.

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And a personal parser would most deffinetely work if someone is just curious about their own DPS output, although I guess it wouldnt work if what you're actually interested in, is how your DPS compares to everyone else. A.k.a rubbing your e-peen

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Why is it that stroking your own ego is the ONLY reason ANYONE would want to compare their DPS to others? Especially when there's multiple of one class? As much as people cry "Look at all those toxic parsers ruining the game!" they fail to reconginze their own elitist toxicity when they spew crap like ^this and "What, you can't pay attention to 20 different things? Maybe club penguin is more your speed".

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

No, see this is why.... Words

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I actually agree with you. I'm not saying personal parsers are bad, I'm saying that they're not the solution to "people will use them to be mean" which is the only argument anti-parser people have.

In saying that as a dps player I do compare myself to others on FFlogs. Their numbers are often my goals and I know what to aim for. While personal parsing would help the levelling side of learning a class, community parsers are for end game. I think you and that other dude in here writing the novels are pretty much agreeing on the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Lazaruz

But dont think they'll just remove you quietly. People will make damn sure, and in great detail, that you know how much you "suck", and should quit playing.

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Here's a thought. How about GMs do their job and suspend or ban these types of people? You cannot blame parses for WoW's apparent incompetent management. Regardlesss, you don't see that same attitude in FFXIV, and I can assure you someone will have ACT up for EX and Savage content. What happens instead if people silently kick or disband without specifically mentioning numbers. It's hardly unreasonable they don't want to carry players who aren't pulling their weight.

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

I'm trying to explain to you that individual player improvement should be prioritized or the ultimate goal of a parse, if you immediately start to analyze for the problem or "weakest link" among "group DPS" you are falling into the antiparser communities trap. You should strive for individual player improvement at their own discretion and a toggleable, realtime, dps parser is the best way to go about it. Again we disagree but its whatever at this point.

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While I do not disagree with the overall sentiment of prioritizing self improvement. It's, once again, not unreasonable to think there might be an issue when I'll nearly pull 5k on Samurai and a Monk can't break 3k. That tells me immediately something is quite wrong. Now I won't scream at them but I would wanting to link them a guide of some sort because that shouldn't be happening in Savage. Should I stay silent though and just do double the work to make up for their poor performance? I suppose so...

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Originally Posted by Lazaruz

You dont see it for the explicit reason of SE both can and will crack down on people getting hostile over people underperforming. A quiet removal is not hostility, but neither is that what I'm talking about either. I'm specificly talking about the people who you know damn well will go out of their way to yell and critique other peoples performance if given permission.

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But allowing parsing does not equal giving permission to this type of behaviour.

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Originally Posted by Taika

But allowing parsing does not equal giving permission to this type of behaviour.

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Neither did I say it did. So thanks for putting words in my mouth

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Here's a thought. How about GMs do their job and suspend or ban these types of people? You cannot blame parses for WoW's apparent incompetent management. Regardlesss, you don't see that same attitude in FFXIV, and I can assure you someone will have ACT up for EX and Savage content. What happens instead if people silently kick or disband without specifically mentioning numbers. It's hardly unreasonable they don't want to carry players who aren't pulling their weight.



While I do not disagree with the overall sentiment of prioritizing self improvement. It's, once again, not unreasonable to think there might be an issue when I'll nearly pull 5k on Samurai and a Monk can't break 3k. That tells me immediately something is quite wrong. Now I won't scream at them but I would wanting to link them a guide of some sort because that shouldn't be happening in Savage. Should I stay silent though and just do double the work to make up for their poor performance? I suppose so...

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If you don't want to be silent... don't. I just take the passive stance on it and would prefer they had the tools for self improvement beforehand. Assume that every player wants to improve and is willing to use those tools and if not, theres still nothing gained nothing lost. At least at that point you know they are not interested or don't care. Let's look at the opposite end of the spectrum, tell them their number after the fight, tell them they have a problem. Tell them how to improve, by all means go alongside them for a few days and teach them. See how many you will get willing to go through that process or not lash out at you that aren't friends. How many people have you taken step by step to help improve lets be honest here. Most of the people who group parse do exactly that, find out the DPS is not enough and leave. Maybe after using a personal parser they still have a problem, maybe beforehand they hated the idea of parsers but this personal parser gave them some insight into the process. Maybe the next time they won't lash out, maybe they would be more caring of where they stand. You all want instant acceptance but wont even give an inch.

Should I pretend that a personal parser isn't going to help that mnk become better in the first place? I suppose so...

Why is the answer always to link someone to a guide anyway? FFS not everyone wants to read a wall of text or is even capable of getting better in this way. Some are capable of getting better on their own. PS4 players don't have any tools to do so. Plain and simple, hell they don't even know what their dps is and here we are arguing over personal parse for improvement purposes vs group parse to find people with problems to later help them improve by throwing a novel in their face. I half think the parsing community is actually responsible for the toxic attitudes they receive because the way you perceive these tools is utterly different from just wishing players had utilities at their disposal for getting better.

Well I finished my novel I guess. I'm leaving this topic for better or worse.

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

How many people have you taken step by step to help improve lets be honest here. Most of the people who group parse do exactly that, find out the DPS is not enough and leave.

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What exactly are you basing this on? I only have my own experience, but at least in the parties me and my friends are doing for learning and practicing extreme or Savage content (have been running Savage learning / first clear parties for 3 weeks in a row now for the floors we have on farm, taking newbies with us), we don't care about anyone's DPS before the group has met enrage several times. At that point, if someone is underperforming enough that they're personally preventing the group from winning, the situation will be discussed. If it turns out the person can't improve enough to be able to clear at that point, they will of course get replaced (so that everyone else wouldn't miss their clear just because of 1 person), but it's done in a friendly manner (they are encouraged to get some more practice and then they can clear for sure).

I have been running with someone parsing in a group since at least 2.0 (I don't remember if there were parsers in 1.0) and people have always offered advice first and given people a chance to improve, and only replacing the person if the person is really holding the group back and is unable to do the content at that time. And I definitely don't see anything wrong with that either.

(Now it's a different situation if a person is joining for example farm groups that only allow people who actually have the fight on farm. In that case, if there's a person who is significantly underperforming (as in if everyone would play at the same level they would never beat the fight), they may just be kicked instead of offered advice, since they intentionally joined a group and weren't able to offer what was required.)

More importantly: the parsers are already there, widely used (like said, it's pretty sure at least one person is parsing for every single extreme / savage run you do, practice or farm). All the things that can possibly follow from players parsing are already happening. Providing players with an official parser will only do two things: make it transparent (and, as such, fair for everyone included) and let PS4 have access to a tool PC users are already using.

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Originally Posted by Taika

More importantly: the parsers are already there, widely used (like said, it's pretty sure at least one person is parsing for every single extreme / savage run you do, practice or farm). All the things that can possibly follow from players parsing are already happening. Providing players with an official parser will only do two things: make it transparent (and, as such, fair for everyone included) and let PS4 have access to a tool PC users are already using.

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The parsers are there, yes, but it's not a official software developed or endorsed by SE, so the stance of "Dont get caught harassing people with it, and we'll look the other way", becomes alot easier, since you're not "supposed" to have it to begin with.

I love how the "pro-parser" community though seem to have this idea that a official parser wont immensely complicate the harassment reports though, because you're talking about a official software, and it's quite easy to make the case of it being there and official means A) SE wants you to use it, and B) Since they want you to use it, the line between "harassment" and "critique" becomes alot more blurry, because again you're using a officially supported tool to base your "critique" on.

I also find it frankly astounding how many of you can only point to your own positive experience with parsers among friends and the like, while simultaneously crying foul over the people opposing parsers because of their negative experience with it.

I have no reason to believe that as soon as SE drops the act and openly allows parser use, we wont see PF groups with "DPS over X, or kick", and the associated hostility once people are "sub-optimal". Because god knows if you enjoy min-maxing yourself to hell and back, you apparently have the right to impose it on every single person you come across.

I regret getting involved in this topic, and it's a misstake I'll be rectifying immediately, as I have much better things to spend my time on then arguing with people both uninterested, and ignorant of the opposing view

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Originally Posted by Miste

You're getting pretty hostile here over opinions yeah?.....If you want to be a spokesperson for not getting hostile you might want to not end up hostile yourself.

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Your input has been noted. Now do me a favour and toss some at the people who went on page upon page of "WHY DONT YOU AGREE?!?!?!" just because they cannot fathom how someone couldnt have the same positive experience they had parsing among friends, when playing with complete randoms, and are labouring under some kind of delusion that just because THEY arent a complete asshole, it apparently means every single person ever that also parses, are not guilty of incredibly toxic behaviour

And if you honestly think this is me mad, or hostile, I can honestly say you've neither met, or spoken with me, when I'm actually either of those two.

Either way, I'm gonna bugger off, since this echo chamber is getting rather blatant.
But I can say with certainty, that if SE ever implements a "official" parsing tool, it'll be the day my sub ends, permanently.

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Originally Posted by Lazaruz

Since they want you to use it, the line between "harassment" and "critique" becomes alot more blurry, because again you're using a officially supported tool to base your "critique" on.

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How would they become more blurry? Right now you can say "You're performing really badly!" and that's not considered harassment. Then you could say "You're performing really badly: your DPS is only 2500 when it should be 4000!". And again, if you add any personal insults or bad language to those, they'll turn into harassment, despite if numbers have been used or not. The main difference in my eyes is that when the numbers are used, the person receiving the critisism will know if it's based on facts or not.

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Originally Posted by Lazaruz

I also find it frankly astounding how many of you can only point to your own positive experience with parsers among friends and the like, while simultaneously crying foul over the people opposing parsers because of their negative experience with it.

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They are different arguments. I have personally witnessed parsers being used for good in this game for many years, and I have not yet witnessed a single case of parser-related harassment despite running endgame in this game from 1.0. On the other side, what I see this thread is people speculating about the possibilities of there being parser-related harassment that would somehow appear out of nothing when the official parser would be added. I have not seen this argument being based on even personal experiences from this game (I may have missed a post, of course). Furthermore, the people most fervently arguing against parsers don't even seem to be doing any content in which they are relevant, so the discussion doesn't really even concern them in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Lazaruz

SI have no reason to believe that as soon as SE drops the act and openly allows parser use, we wont see PF groups with "DPS over X, or kick", and the associated hostility once people are "sub-optimal".

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How exactly is this different from all the current "high DPS or kick" party finders? :D Do you think that those people are right now just eyeballing if their party members are pulling enough or not? Furthermore, what exactly would be the issues with these party finders? Players are free to form whatever type of groups they like, and we all have the freedom to choose to either join them or not to join them. I don't join "high DPS or kick" or "one mistake and kick" groups now, and I would not join "4k DPS or kick" groups then, even if I would meet the requirements. And I would not suddenly change the requirements for my own party finders (which are currently something in lines of "be comfortable with the fight and your job and bring patience and good attitude") just because the parsers people are already using would be made visible.

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Originally Posted by Lazaruz

Your input has been noted. Now do me a favour and toss some at the people who went on page upon page of "WHY DONT YOU AGREE?!?!?!" just because they cannot fathom how someone couldnt have the same positive experience they had parsing among friends, when playing with complete randoms, and are labouring under some kind of delusion that just because THEY arent a complete asshole, it apparently means every single person ever that also parses, are not guilty of incredibly toxic behaviour

And if you honestly think this is me mad, or hostile, I can honestly say you've neither met, or spoken with me, when I'm actually either of those two.

Either way, I'm gonna bugger off, since this echo chamber is getting rather blatant.
But I can say with certainty, that if SE ever implements a "official" parsing tool, it'll be the day my sub ends, permanently.

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I frequent these forums pretty regularly, and I have to say I think I have found a pretty good candidate for the crankiness award.

I don't think anyone is blind to the fact that there are people who parse and are a-holes. That being said, if someone is continually having negative experiences with people who they suspect are parsing, isn't there a chance that there might be something there worth a deeper dive? If you are laboring under the assumption that the vast majority of people who use parsers aren't complete dicks, then yeah - it does make sense to cry foul when people purport to repeatedly run into harassers and abusers.

If anything, I feel like the people spouting the most toxic nonsense are those who bury their heads in the sand and completely eschew feedback of any kind. The super self-conscious players who will flip out if you make any kind of suggestion as to how to they could streamline their play have been the majority of my negative experiences. So...are we sure those aren't the people in the echo chamber?

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Originally Posted by Lazaruz

I regret getting involved in this topic, and it's a misstake I'll be rectifying immediately, as I have much better things to spend my time on then arguing with people both uninterested, and ignorant of the opposing view

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If I roll my eyes any harder, I'll give myself a headache. Bye Felicia.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

that includes finding if there are any "weakest links" and working on focused improvement for that member, or replacing them.

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SE will NEVER, EVER, EVER endorse that kind of thought process. EVER.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

SE will NEVER, EVER, EVER endorse that kind of thought process. EVER.

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I'm not sure if I understand what you're saying. Maybe try more caps? :)

Edit: To actually contribute, this is a thing that has already happened, is currently happening, and will always happen. There being an official parser compared to current unofficial one won't change that in any way. Exact same things in player behaviour are still forbidden or allowed. What having an official parser does is make this process visible for everyone, and as such more fair. If someone gets kicked, they will know it was because they were underperforming and aren't left to wonder, or if someone is unfairly accused of underperforming they can prove those accusations wrong.

Funny story, just last week, I was accused of underperforming in OS3, "looking for a carry". I did some silly mistakes (being nervous running in a pug), but I was also the top DPS. The party might have kicked me, but didn't (probably thanks to someone parsing!). With an official parser, I would never have had to face that threat in the first place.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

SE will NEVER, EVER, EVER endorse that kind of thought process. EVER.

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SE cannot force a particular playstyle upon the playerbase as a whole. They don't endorse or condone things like harassment, but they can't force players to adhere to a singular playstyle (e.g., forcing players to carry bad or lazy players). You don't like the removal of the weakest link playstyle, and that's fine. I prefer to work on improvement unless it's obvious there is nothing that can be done to improve performance, and at that point, you have to remove the problem if you ever hope to progress. Ultimately, however, whatever SE "condones" or "doesn't condone" has zero baring on how the community plays this game.

Don't like Min-maxing Mentality? Don't do it, and don't hang around people who do. Don't like to carry people? Then don't. Want to coddle people and their feelings, and not remove them from a group even though they're hindering progression? You do you. No one will force you to not carry people, or to parse. But you also cannot force other players to carry, or to not parse just because you don't like it.

Whether this was your point or premise in your post, I have no idea. Since it was so incredibly vague and not in any way constructive/contributing to the discussion at hand at all. Though, I am curious as to where you saw that I said SE does condone (and should condone) the playstyle of myself or others who are "pro-parser." That inference is lost on me.