Black Mage Raise Ability

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

samurais are the greediest dps, they have zero utility but get most of the group/dps buffs..

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Hey, they give a slashing debuff! We don't give even that.

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Or how about "Consumed by the void", a convert on steroids borrowing from DRK's Living dead? Upon use the BLM drops to 1 HP and gets an infinite MP buff for a set period of time. If the BLM isn't healed to full, he/she dies when the buff expires.

Another edit: Hohoho, that would be horribly overpowered especially in aoe situations. Flare carpet-bombing <3

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Originally Posted by Squigley

Hey, they give a slashing debuff! We don't give even that.

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Or how about "Consumed by the void", a convert on steroids borrowing from DRK's Living dead? Upon use the BLM drops to 1 HP and gets an infinite MP buff for a set period of time. If the BLM isn't healed to full, he/she dies when the buff expires.

Another edit: Hohoho, that would be horribly overpowered especially in aoe situations. Flare carpet-bombing <3

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true about the slashing debuff, and its defacto part if theyre rota..

blm in the other hand are the only casters that should use mana-shift.., but its a slight dps lose for use, unlike the sam using the debuff.. (+ sam will hog most of the groups buffs)

meaning, blm deeps could use a slight dump

Not wanting to be rude, but please let this topic go away. I actually play a BLM because of lack of a lot utility. BLM could probably use a bump up in terms of DPS but do not ask for a raise spell. I like going into dungeons and putting physical DPS to shame as a BLM. Recent additions to the job were sufficient but not enough, the job is fine for now as we currently have DPS rivaling SAM/MNK, if played correctly. Please no raise spell, as there are some of us who like not having to support others and instead just blow stuff up with excessive amounts of damage

*opens topic again*

Nope, still don't want a BLM raise. Happy to play one caster without it.

Marianno, You said it all !!
(sorry for re-re opening the thread ;-) )

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Lets say 2 second cast and 2.5 recast as per gcd.

Vercure->raise is 4.5 seconds, swift raise adds 2.5 seconds. We're at 7 seconds, add 2 seconds for vercure and 2.5 for raise, 11.5. 3 raises, 11.5 seconds. 4th raise adds another 4.5 seconds for 16 seconds.

I can log in later and replace these theoretical numbers with my own cast times.

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Back with my numbers, at 1,051 spellspeed:

1.91s cast time with 2.39s recast time.

Vercure to verraise: 1.91 + 2.39 = 4.3 seconds (actually it'd be 2.39s + 2.39s because dualcast needs to wait that .48 seconds before I can hit it) so 4.78 seconds.

Swift + raise puts us at 4.78 + 2.39 = 7.17 seconds.

Then we add 9.56 seconds for the next four casts (vercure raise vercure raise) for a total of `16.73 seconds to raise four people. Still immensely quick, mind, but definitely not getting it all out in less than 10 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Squigley

Hey, they give a slashing debuff! We don't give even that.

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Or how about "Consumed by the void", a convert on steroids borrowing from DRK's Living dead? Upon use the BLM drops to 1 HP and gets an infinite MP buff for a set period of time. If the BLM isn't healed to full, he/she dies when the buff expires.

Another edit: Hohoho, that would be horribly overpowered especially in aoe situations. Flare carpet-bombing <3

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The slashing debuff is already provided by the "mandatory" ninja in the group as part of their normal rotation or, failing that, by a warrior. That's why people talk about samurai as having "no utility".

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Originally Posted by Stormblessed9000

The slashing debuff is already provided by the "mandatory" ninja in the group as part of their normal rotation or, failing that, by a warrior. That's why people talk about samurai as having "no utility".

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That's true but sam utility does have its place sometimes. For example, my "static" does not have a nin nor a war, so sam utility is actually somewhat useful.

And I'm very sorry for bumping this thread.

BLM in FF franchise never gets a raise spell. End of discussion.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

BLM in FF franchise never gets a raise spell. End of discussion.

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This. Black mages have only had utility in the form of debuffs like Poison and Sleep, and half the time you couldn't even really call that utility. If you want to cast Raise as a black mage, play FINAL FANTASY XI and make something like scholar or white mage your support job.

no thanks... blm has nice numbers now cause they don't have rdm utility. if you give blm utility, theres no reason to bring rdm, so you either drop blm dps or inc rdm dps.. how it is now is fine (blm high numbers, no utility, rdm smaller numbers, more utility)

<.< tag a 3min CD to it. done.

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Originally Posted by Baka_Neko1

<.< tag a 3min CD to it. done.

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No. Now let this dumb idea die and never return.

If anything they should make death more punishing not just beign an inconvenience

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Originally Posted by Baka_Neko1

<.< tag a 3min CD to it. done.

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How about we tag more punishment to verraise (such as increasing its MP cost) and forget about the horrible idea that is BLM raise. done.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

How about we tag more punishment to verraise (such as increasing its MP cost) and forget about the horrible idea that is BLM raise. done.

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We don't even need to do that to red mage. Summoner is what needs buffs and black mages have never had healing. They shouldn't start having healing now.

Black mages lack utility because they make up for it in raw dps, just like SAM.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Only usable in astral fire, costs a lot of MP. So then while you can't get past the infinite MP issue (and tbh you're never going to get past that on blm), it's a dps loss.

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how the hell did the retainer take damage?

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Originally Posted by Tropa

Black mages lack utility because they make up for it in raw dps, just like SAM.

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Summoner.

Might be in a clunky spot, but they're bringing a comparable amount of damage with party buffs and raise.

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Originally Posted by Ceallach

We don't even need to do that to red mage. Summoner is what needs buffs and black mages have never had healing. They shouldn't start having healing now.

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If we were talking about something completely different then I would say you are totally right, but this discussion is about caster raise abilities in isolation, and in that regard, verraise is slightly too strong. As of right now, you can have both healers in a raid die and the RDM raise both of them without much trouble, turning what used to be (and still is in a party without a RDM) a guaranteed wipe into an inconvenience. I'm not advocating removing that, but something that strong should completely cripple the RDM for a bit.

This can be likened to attitudes surrounding 3.0 WAR, people were saying to simply buff the other jobs to match WAR, but the fact of the matter was that WAR didn't have any weaknesses, and the idea of buffing the other tanks to its level would have caused power creep and problems for encounter design, and buffing the healing capabilities of SMN and BLM rather than toning back RDM would most definitely cause power creep when it comes to raising players.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

blorp

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Yeah, let's tone RDM down because of 1 niche situation! That makes total sense. Let's nerf BLMs damage too since I saw a Fire 4 do 30k damage once. And let's also nerf SMNs Bahamut because it looks pretty cool.

First off, I cannot even begin to fathom a Black Mage raising someone....that's like duct-taping a first-aid kit onto a nuke. That being said, I do agree that BLM is far less desirable in raid situations due to it's utter lack of utility. While I'm not sure if anything can be done during this expansion, it's not a bad idea to throw out ideas for BLM abilities for the next one....that make sense.

It is ironic that while in reality, BLM is probably the 'greediest' of classes (bringing the least utility/help to other party members), in lore and quests BLMs (or at least the ones we associate with) are probably some of the most selfless people that exist. They willingly take the void into themselves, letting it redefine their being...and the price they pay is a high one; ostracized by society and looked upon as a villain, all the while having to balance between controlling how much they 'let loose'. Yet Black Mages are the best defense against denizens of the void due to their affinity with it...fighting fire with fire, if you will.

With this is mind, I would like to suggest an ability for the next expansion that brings both utility to BLM while also staying true to it's roots. The name can be whatever you want, but for ease of memory I would call it "Overchannel". The name says it all; when activated, the ability would last for anywhere from 10/15 seconds, during which the potency of all of your spells double....yes double. HOWEVER, there is a catch; once overchannel ends, you are instantly knocked out. In addition, overchannel cannot be dispelled or cancelled; once you use it, you're going down no matter what. Furthermore, upon being raised, you are at withered status (double-ko status) instead of just weakened; to remove this, you can either wait the timer out, or you can be 'raised' again.

The nature of the ability would fit perfectly with BLM's nature to sacrifice more of themselves for more power; you would essentially be opening the floodgates to let the void consume you; it can even have a neat visual appearance; your flesh completely overtaken by a roiling black mist with only two glaring yellow dots in place of your eyes (yes the classical BLM look)...but having so much void flowing through a body is deadly, and thus you pay the price for your temporary power boost.

This ability would obviously be a double-edged sword, but has it's uses; heavy-dps burst-phases in raids could see this ability put to good use if timed well, pushing the raid past a hard-to-pass barrier, while also having to deal with a 'burned-out' BLM afterwards for a short bit.

Just a bit of an idea, but I think it could give BLM some utility (through immense burst-damage), while not destroying the utility of it's fellow magi. Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Things were said.

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Maybe, but you also still have to pay attention to the lore. Red mages are jacks of all trades, so it makes sense for us to have Verraise. Summoners have had healing summons in past titles, so having a summoner be capable of healing without being super good at it does still fit, so Physick is okay lore-wise.

Black mages NEVER heal. Ever. They get debuffs and damage spells and THAT'S IT. They should not ever get their own Raise in this game or any other. It's a blatant slap to the lore's face. That's the main point for me, considering that's what this thread's about.

Now, as far as red mages being "too strong," maybe. I don't feel that way. I don't have the raw numbers to back up my side, but I also acknowledge it's just my opinion that red mages are fine.

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Originally Posted by Aarik

Just a bit of an idea, but I think it could give BLM some utility (through immense burst-damage), while not destroying the utility of it's fellow magi. Thoughts?

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Damage isn't utility.

Mana song, TP song, movement bonuses, CC immunity, shifting burden / cost, those are utility.

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Originally Posted by Ceallach

Now, as far as red mages being "too strong," maybe. I don't feel that way. I don't have the raw numbers to back up my side, but I also acknowledge it's just my opinion that red mages are fine.

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They are fine. They're supposed do the least damage out of the 3 casters. Justified since they have 2 really useful utilities for progression and only expected for progression.

Also I don't think Dualcasted Verraise is too strong either. It's just useful during progression where you'll expect a lot of mistakes since people are still learning. It's not really a big deal.

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Originally Posted by Aarik

Just a bit of an idea, but I think it could give BLM some utility (through immense burst-damage), while not destroying the utility of it's fellow magi. Thoughts?

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In no way would 10 seconds of double damage be worth having the Brink of Death debuff for 2 minutes + the dps downtime of having to be raised + the mana cost of the raise.

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

They are fine. They're supposed do the least damage out of the 3 casters. Justified since they have 2 really useful utilities for progression and only expected for progression.

Also I don't think Dualcasted Verraise is too strong either. It's just useful during progression where you'll expect a lot of mistakes since people are still learning. It's not really a big deal.

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It's really powerful for prog though. My group's rdm who switched to mch will definitely go back to rdm for the new contents in 4.1. I agree with the post in the previous page comparing the situation to war in 3.x. Right now not bringing rdm for prog is arguably as big of a handicap as not bringing a war in 3.x.

Honestly I don't think even Summoners should have raise. It just feels wrong. Disciplines dedicated towards killing really shouldn't have the capacity to give life. I can understand Red Mage and Arcanist having this skill because their focused on either balance or strategy (which was kind of gutted for archanist in sb when the removed the debuffs attached to their spells)

But the very idea of blm getting a raise is quite silly. They're magic is partly burial rights (focused on laying the dead to rest) and Necromancy has been established to be a bastardization of life.

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Originally Posted by Transient_Shadow

Honestly I don't think even Summoners should have raise. It just feels wrong. Disciplines dedicated towards killing really shouldn't have the capacity to give life. I can understand Red Mage and Arcanist having this skill because their focused on either balance or strategy (which was kind of gutted for archanist in sb when the removed the debuffs attached to their spells)

But the very idea of blm getting a raise is quite silly. They're magic is partly burial rights (focused on laying the dead to rest) and Necromancy has been established to be a bastardization of life.

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Raise spells are bring back from unconsciousness spells, not literally resurrect from the dead. The same capacity SMN has for access to physick, basic Arcane Geometry from their ACN roots, is why resurrection works. Its not like resurrection puts you back in great health. You are literally on the verge or brink of death.

But again, be glad BLMS don't have a raise spell or you know, they would be expected to raise, instead of juggling their enochian timer. If black mage ever did get utility, I feel it would have something to do with an enhanced MP regen for party members. Like mana shift on steroids. Something like granting a party member Umbral Ice for a short time, while you're in umbral ice. (No effect on those currently in Astral Fire. :P)

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

Yeah, let's tone RDM down because of 1 niche situation! That makes total sense. Let's nerf BLMs damage too since I saw a Fire 4 do 30k damage once. And let's also nerf SMNs Bahamut because it looks pretty cool.

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Lol, you act like I was asking to remove the ability and cripple RDM as a whole, I asked for its mana cost to be looked at so that a raise takes, for example, just under half MP (as it should on any DPS role IMO) :rolleyes:

Also... how is the difference between a guaranteed wipe and simple save a "niche situation"? (Aleph summed that up pretty well above)

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Originally Posted by Ceallach

Maybe, but you also still have to pay attention to the lore. Red mages are jacks of all trades, so it makes sense for us to have Verraise.

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Lore should never be a justification for, or be thought of before mechanical imbalance, having said that though, I NEVER asked for verraise to be removed, or even changed mechanically, all I asked was for its mana cost to be looked at.

Totally agree with you about BLM, but I feel it could be better described as job identity than lore. BLM has a solid identity and a raise spell would go against that, RDM also has a solid identity, but certain aspects overstep the confines of the job system IMO (and can be easily fixed without touching the mechanics themselves I will reiterate)

BLMs reaction to OP's post
https://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acc...c6914c6d3f.jpg

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Totally agree with you about BLM, but I feel it could be better described as job identity than lore. BLM has a solid identity and a raise spell would go against that, RDM also has a solid identity, but certain aspects overstep the confines of the job system IMO (and can be easily fixed without touching the mechanics themselves I will reiterate)

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But not against Thaumaturges. So you can give it to them before you make the job transition and everything is peachy okay for 'identity'. Do recall they do shady stuff with Necromancy.

On a serious note, though, after spending the last few weeks joining random pugs to help in savage clears, the pattern tends to be that Black Mage spots are only open if the person doesn't care about the comp. Speed runs almost never see them, 'serious clear parties' the only caster they want is Red Mage, etc etc.

And frankly, as we're moving forward, even with the clunk summoners are dealing with, they are bringing comparable damage -with the ability to raise and party buffs-. Getting something that is a boon to the party that the other casters don't bring isn't unreasonable at this point, and no, I'd rather not have another damage bump to clear the hurdle. That just puts Red Mages further behind.

If you look back at every summoner in the series, you find that only Rydia could initially use black magic. Eiko, Yuna and Garnet were all white mages on top of being summoners, so Physick and Resurrection make sense from a lore standpoint because summoning magic is typically paired with healing magic.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Lore should never be a justification for, or be thought of before mechanical imbalance, having said that though, I NEVER asked for verraise to be removed, or even changed mechanically, all I asked was for its mana cost to be looked at.

Totally agree with you about BLM, but I feel it could be better described as job identity than lore. BLM has a solid identity and a raise spell would go against that, RDM also has a solid identity, but certain aspects overstep the confines of the job system IMO (and can be easily fixed without touching the mechanics themselves I will reiterate)

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The thing is job identity is defined partially by lore. You can never get away from it. It's written into every aspect of every job. It's true that you don't want mechanical imbalance, but the fact is jobs must fit their lore first and mechanics second. That's part of why we aren't getting a blue mage. Like I stated above, famous characters with certain jobs influence the series' lore as well. Red mages don't have famous characters to fall back on. The only one that even comes to mind is that Elvaan from FINAL FANTASY XI: Wings of the Goddess that you get an alter ego for, and if I can't even remember his name, he's obviously not worth using as an example. Therefore, beyond saying that the red mage can do a little of everything, it can be hard to pin down what red mages really do from a lore standpoint beyond fencing and (more heavily) the use of practically all basic forms of magic.

You can talk about game balance all you like, but the fact is the only problem with job balance right now is the fact summoner as a job is a broken heap of dung at the moment. Black mages and red mages are both fine as they are. Machinists I guess could use some potency buffs, but nothing huge like having to overhaul the entire summoner job. Even scholars are in a better place than summoner right now.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

But not against Thaumaturges. So you can give it to them before you make the job transition and everything is peachy okay for 'identity'. Do recall they do shady stuff with Necromancy.

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In all fairness, classes as a whole are a lot more loose than jobs. Jobs are meant to specialized for a specific role, which is why we're against giving black mages a revival spell. Yes, the necromancer job did appear before (FINAL FANTASY V for example), but if you give a revival spell to the thaumaturge, that means the black mage will also get it. Because of how classes worked before Stormblood, you could also give rogues, pugilists and even marauders the conjurer's Raise spell or the arcanist's Resurrection spell as well. You could level every Disciple of War and Disciple of Magic job to 60, then switch to your favorite weapon and set whatever you wanted. Now we have role actions instead, which makes more sense overall. As an example, look at FINAL FANTASY Tactics and the branching jobs in that series. Mog knights could get Ultima Charge, change to gunners and fire Ultima Charges from long distance, even though that action was never really meant to be a long range attack.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

But not against Thaumaturges. So you can give it to them before you make the job transition and everything is peachy okay for 'identity'. Do recall they do shady stuff with Necromancy.

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BLM =/= THM (we have all our THM spells, the rest are BLM, the two, while linked are independent as much as ROG and NIN are).
Necromancy =/= Raising (unless you want us to come back with zombie and have the healer immediately kill them again)

BLM's identity is about void magic, destruction spells and bursty turret damage. A raise spell fits the identity of PLD (Cecil can learn raise in FFIV) far more than it does BLM, and I don't want it on PLD either.

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Originally Posted by Ceallach

You can talk about game balance all you like, but the fact is the only problem with job balance right now is the fact summoner as a job is a broken heap of dung at the moment. Black mages and red mages are both fine as they are. Machinists I guess could use some potency buffs, but nothing huge like having to overhaul the entire summoner job. Even scholars are in a better place than summoner right now.

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No-one disputed that SMN needs buffs, tweaks, and changes, I know for a fact that this is true, the devs know that this is true, and those changes are confirmed for 4.1. This thread is not about SMN at all, nor MCH, nor any other job except BLM and RDM.

You say they are fine, but from my own experience, and other people in this thread, RDM is in a much much better place than other casters for progression (the most important part for the meta, after that nobody cares what you play - BLM can do bigger numbers, but if you can clear on a RDM, then the bigger numbers aren't necessary), and that is mostly down to its utility, mobility, and unimpaired damage, I'm not sure how that constitutes fine. RDM doesn't need big changes, only small tweaks, but saying it is fine is turning a blind eye to what the job is actually capable of (I've had both healers die at the same time in savage many times and we still get the weekly clear thanks to having a RDM, nothing a BLM can offer is equivalent to that).

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

BLM =/= THM (we have all our THM spells, the rest are BLM, the two, while linked are independent as much as ROG and NIN are).
Necromancy =/= Raising (unless you want us to come back with zombie and have the healer immediately kill them again)

BLM's identity is about void magic, destruction spells and bursty turret damage. A raise spell fits the identity of PLD (Cecil can learn raise in FFIV) far more than it does BLM, and I don't want it on PLD either.

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I can easily give you lore appropriate raise spells the Black mage would be capable of, but frankly, that's not the core problem.

The core problem is being a selfish glass cannon is a terrible balance angle. You're either so far ahead that you're mandatory, or not far ahead enough that you're worth bringing over something else.

Black mages need some sort of non-damage based Party Utility. They bring nothing that another caster doesn't. At this point, they aren't even bringing unequivocally superior damage now that people are actually giving Summoner an honest go, and Red mages are still well enough in the ballpark that bringing a Black Mage isn't some significant inherent damage advantage, because when you count Embolden into all of that, Red Mages are pretty close.

That's the problem. All the claims that "Black mages are the samurai of casters" ignores both the blatant data stating otherwise and the fact that this mindset is terrible for job balance to start with.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

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I love how preventing wipes is suddenly bad because BLM can't do it, it's fairly amusing. You didn't specify which savage, if it's 1 or 2 that's a no brainer, those instances are easy enough even without RDM to emergency raise your apparently mechanics inept healers. You realize doubling the mana cost effectively makes Verraise about as effective as SMN Resurrection? You just want RDM to be a direct damage version of SMN with that "tweak". Let nothing challenge BLM right? And yeah, nerfing Verraise because both healers might die and RDM could be helpful is a niche situation, whether or not the result would have been a wipe.

Jesus christ, this is still going on? :X I don't even want to read anything before page 16 so.. like I said WAY long ago in this thread.. BLM never raised, they never will. They have not changed the core of the Black Mage ever since it was introduced in the first final fantasy or any job in the old final fantasy games that appear in the later games. THM is basically a coroner. >_< Stop whining and trying to change something that hasn't been changed since 1987.

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Originally Posted by Aleisterz

Jesus christ, this is still going on? :X I don't even want to read anything before page 16 so.. like I said WAY long ago in this thread.. BLM never raised, they never will. They have not changed the core of the Black Mage ever since it was introduced in the first final fantasy or any job in the old final fantasy games that appear in the later games. THM is basically a coroner. >_< Stop whining and trying to change something that hasn't been changed since 1987.

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"Stop discussing this thread."

*puts a reply to make people look back at the thread*

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Things.

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I thought this thread was about giving black mages a revival spell, which is extremely ill-advised. And honestly, red mages in FINAL FANTASY XI were also capable of Raising entire alliances thanks to Chainspell. Of course, Chainspell has a one-hour recast (used to be two hours) and weakness is harder to deal with in that game, but that's not the point. The point is you could get an entire alliance up easily, especially if your support job was scholar.

I say red mage is fine because it's much harder in this game for a red mage to justify judicious use of Verraise than a red mage in any other FINAL FANTASY title (including FINAL FANTASY XI) using it just as much, and they're arguably capable of casting Raise much more often.

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

I love how preventing wipes is suddenly bad because BLM can't do it, it's fairly amusing.

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For a BLM, it is, did you miss the part where people are asking for RDMs for progression over the other two?

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

You didn't specify which savage, if it's 1 or 2 that's a no brainer, those instances are easy enough even without RDM to emergency raise your apparently mechanics inept healers.

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O1-3 at some point or another (I haven't cleared 4)

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

You realize doubling the mana cost effectively makes Verraise about as effective as SMN Resurrection?

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Yes, Making DPS raises equivalent is a bad thing? (don't use lore and identity as a rebuttal, raise is part of SMNs identity too, with many SMNs in the franchise being linked to white magic)

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

You just want RDM to be a direct damage version of SMN with that "tweak".

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RDM and SMN are nothing alike, but in any case I want SMN to be improved, though that is a separate thread entirely and right now I am comparing DPS raises. With verraise being made "fairer" RDM still has mobility, utility and damage, and will still be a very viable choice for progression, it just won't be the go-to choice (and BLMs will feel more comfortable with their identity).


My point is that verraise has almost trivialised something that was catastrophic before stormblood. Combining a PLD and a RDM in a party is insane because of the sheer amount of healing utility that they both bring, and IMO that has completely changed the landscape of progression.