Sadly sayiing goodbye to SCH

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Originally Posted by Starflake

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Keep up with your asinine assumptions and complete illiteracy. I went over all of the tools SCH has in my analysis. I didn't ignore any of them. And I know how to optimize. SCH isn't worth the trouble required to make it a passable healer right now. Can it do the content and be effective? Yes. Every single job in the game can do the content and be effective at their role. That doesn't mean they're all in a good place, and SCH is *not* in a good place right now. If you want to continue to deny the truth just to believe that your job is perfectly fine rather than accept that it has some serious problems, that's your call; but quit going around spreading misinformation.

I'm also not saying that there should be an exact copy of Cure II on SCH, but there's not enough compensation for the *lack* of Cure II and its efficiency on SCH. Not anymore.

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

Keep up with your asinine assumptions and complete illiteracy. *snip*

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That's a lot coming from someone who hasn't completed any Alexander or Deltascape Savage content in this game. Saying such to those who have actually cleared encounters as a healer.


Scholar is in a good spot since the 4.05 buffs. 500 potency to our most powerful oGCD AoE is almost too good, and free Aetherflow every 4 minutes, spamable AoE. For the first time since Astro has been introduced in the game all three healers are in a good spot, and it representative in the fact all three have good clear rates in Deltascape Savage.

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I'm also not saying that there should be an exact copy of Cure II on SCH, but there's not enough compensation for the *lack* of Cure II and its efficiency on SCH. Not anymore.

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SCH has never needed a "Cure II". We have Adlo, oGCDs for days with Excog and Lustrate. Along with Embrace for top-ups. You are supposed to Adlo tank busters (and in savage these are usually tanks without tank stance on) and let the regens take care of everything else. If you are playing top-up healer with always manual GCD healing on SCH, you are playing the job wrong.

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Originally Posted by lulunami

To be honest, I do not use Physick in raid (O1S-O4S) anymore on SCH. Although Physick is SCH's most MP efficient GCD healing spell, you are better off casting Broil. Emergency Tactics, Indom, Excog, Lustrate, Fairy, Whispering Dawn, Sacred Soil, etc. are much better to use for healing. If something requires a SCH to stop dealing damage, SCH will not be using Physick unless for solo healing.

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Raids are also a bit different, since you have a second healer.

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Originally Posted by technole

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You're making more assumptions as well. First off, I never said SCH needs a Cure II. They do, however, need adequate compensation for not having a Cure II. They used to have that. Now, they don't.

They're definitely better off 68-70 than 65-67, but they need a bit more. They are definitely a more difficult class to play than WHM and require significantly more effort to optimize, but they don't gain any benefit over whm by being optimized. A higher skill ceiling should bring with it a higher benefit, not slightly less benefit than the lower skill ceiling job.

Oh, and OGCDs for days? You get 3 every 45 seconds. WHM can do 4 if you count Divine Benison which gives a nice shield, as well as another one that's every 72 seconds and then Bene once every 3 minutes.

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

Keep up with your asinine assumptions and complete illiteracy. I went over all of the tools SCH has in my analysis. I didn't ignore any of them. And I know how to optimize. SCH isn't worth the trouble required to make it a passable healer right now. Can it do the content and be effective? Yes. Every single job in the game can do the content and be effective at their role. That doesn't mean they're all in a good place, and SCH is *not* in a good place right now. If you want to continue to deny the truth just to believe that your job is perfectly fine rather than accept that it has some serious problems, that's your call; but quit going around spreading misinformation.

I'm also not saying that there should be an exact copy of Cure II on SCH, but there's not enough compensation for the *lack* of Cure II and its efficiency on SCH. Not anymore.

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On the flip side, I wouldn't take a trade of 100 pot + slightly less mana cost + no crit bonus in return for SCH's kit of faerie + triple AF stack healing. That 100 pot bonus pales in comparison to the free 2000 potency oGCD heals SCH gets in comparison. So I guess we have a difference of opinion here.

I wouldn't trade Bene for dissipation either. Dissipation is 2400 potency (1800 lustrate + 15s AF) + 20% healing bonus. That healing bonus alone makes adlo 720 and physick 480, which is superior to WHM.

What do you get with benediction? A ton of overheal, and maybe a 1500 pot heal on a single target, at best, unless you combo it with living dead (which is it's only saving grace).

WHM's best role isn't single target healing. It's AOE HPS/efficiency. You can't expect to be as efficient as a SCH in single target when all of a SCH's skills are optimized for single target efficiency.

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Originally Posted by Spiroglyph

Used to think SCH got worse and after reading some of the latest comments found out im probably just not using my toolkit to its full potential. Need to give this another try...

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Physick is inferior to WHM Cure. Non-crit Adlo is inferior to AST Aspected Benefic. Succor is inferior to AST Aspected Helios. Fairy got nerfed a bit too.

So what do you have to do on SCH now? Reduce your usage of Physick, Adlo, and Succor. You will run out of MP trying to use Adlo and Succor liberally.

SCH's strength lies solely in its Abilities. You get a full stack of Aetherflow every 45 seconds, so you will always have something you can do. Take advantage of what Eos can do and use all of her buffs and abilities.

Take advantage of Indom as much as possible. Think of Indom as a flexible, more frequently used Earthly Star. Emergency Tactics > Swiftcast > Succor is not too shabby to pair with Indom as well.

@Lulunami: Thanks a lot :) reading through these latest comments kinda makes it seem like I was really trying to use SCH like I would an AST, which is what I've been playing with as of lately. Was also very reluctant to use dissipation, so it puts a hamper on ability usage as well.

Those are some pretty cool things to try and use though, so thanks for sharing!

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Originally Posted by Dregenfox

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SCH should be better at single target healing than whm, since whm is so much superior at aoe healing. The problem is that right now, SCH *isn't* superior to WHM for single target healing and is still weaker on aoe healing, too.

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

You're making more assumptions as well. First off, I never said SCH needs a Cure II. They do, however, need adequate compensation for not having a Cure II. They used to have that. Now, they don't.
They're definitely better off 68-70 than 65-67, but they need a bit more. They are definitely a more difficult class to play than WHM and require significantly more effort to optimize, but they don't gain any benefit over whm by being optimized. A higher skill ceiling should bring with it a higher benefit, not slightly less benefit than the lower skill ceiling job.

Oh, and OGCDs for days? You get 3 every 45 seconds. WHM can do 4 if you count Divine Benison which gives a nice shield, as well as another one that's every 72 seconds and then Bene once every 3 minutes.

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WHM Benison requires gaining a lily and that means manually healing damage with Cure/Cure II to proc, and it also burns all your lilies regardless.

Dungeon-wise leveling at 65-68 is fine on SCH and it was the first job I leveled in SB during EA. Getting better healer gear beyond i270 is just as important at these levels as it is for a tank, as the treadmill stat gain at 65+ is very large.

Excog is immensely useful, and should always be used when big damage is coming, even at <50% HP for the enhanced heal. Smart Lustrate use only if someone is in dire health, not burning them for top-ups or just to make one feel better about the HP bar. One or two Adlos on mega pulls to help make tank cooldowns more potent or when one isn't up, while going back to cleric stance damage. Indom is the best AoE heal the job has, and should be used whenever possible for the situation. All the while building the fairy gauge at later levels, because Fey Union is immensely powerful for the hardest dungeon pulls in the game.

Like others have eluded, SCH is the oGCD king of healers. There is an instant button for every situation, and Eos Embrace is still as-good for single target healing.

But you can't be spamming Adlo/Succor on the job, and use of Physick should be limited as much as possible to where you are not using it normally. To the point where it has to be a button you had to reach to grab because the pull is that insane for anyone to handle.

The correct way to play a lev 70 Scholar is with AF abilities and Fairy usage but this is TERRIBLE character design! Lustrate is a level 50 skill and a core healing mechanic. Indom doesn't happen until level 52 with Dissipation and Excog happening at 60 and 62 respectively but you train yourself to be a terrible Scholar because you ONLY have access to Physick then Adlo and then Succor until level 50. The play style takes this drastic shift from GCD skills to oGCD skills for later content. Its no wonder why there are so many terrible Scholars. WHM has all its key healing abilities(Medica1/2; Cure1/2; Regen) at extremely low levels and only builds upon them with situational abilities afterward that add speed and efficiency. SCH must completely rethink the way they play by being giving a toolkit that changes drastically at level 50 and again with every healing ability learned afterward. I think the skill curve required for this is being vastly under estimated.

Honestly if they split Summoner and Scholar, they need to rework Scholar a bit, specifically what level they learn things.

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

SCH should be better at single target healing than whm, since whm is so much superior at aoe healing. The problem is that right now, SCH *isn't* superior to WHM for single target healing and is still weaker on aoe healing, too.

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You keep saying that, yet the only argument you can make is that WHM's cure II has 100 extra potency and that's why they're better. Hardcasted GCD heals typically only make up 50% or less of total healing - the other 50% are oGCD abilities. And that's only for a heavy savage run.

You can't only look at one single ability that has 100 pot more and conclude that WHM is superior, when pretty much every other SCH oGCD is vastly superior to WHM.

SCH also scales w/ crit much better than WHM does. Assuming we can eventually hit 20% crit rates, adlo becomes roughly equal to CureII in pot/sec when factoring in crits. And adlo crits for SCH are godly, because 2/3 of it is a beefy shield that never suffers from overhealing.

If you look at overhealing rates as well, SCH hovers around 10-25% while WHM is 20-45%. For all the supposed vaunted HPS that WHM has, most of it is wasted on people whose HP bars are already full.

Take a look at the top 50 clears of content that aren't focused on AOE healing. Almost none of them include WHM. It's only when AOE damage becomes a major issue where people even bother to look at WHM's.

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Originally Posted by technole

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I had full gear for lv65-68 because I had already gone through 61-70 as rdm, whm, and drk.

Also, I'm done talking to you. You are continuing spouting misinformation and BS, deliberating remaining ignorant and blind to the facts because for some reason, despite listing your "main" as Astrologian on the forums, you are unwilling to see the glaring flaws with SCH right now.

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Originally Posted by NobleWinter

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Exactly. SCH at 50 in 2.0 was a low skill floor/high skill ceiling job, with a great pay off for reaching that skill ceiling. Now, it's a high skill floor/high skill ceiling job with *no* payoff for reaching that skill ceiling, because you're still only just barely catching up to WHM which has a much lower skill ceiling, making it not worth it to play SCH instead of WHM.

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Originally Posted by Dregenfox

You keep saying that, yet the only argument you can make is that WHM's cure II has 100 extra potency and that's why they're better. Hardcasted GCD heals typically only make up 50% or less of total healing - the other 50% are oGCD abilities. And that's only for a heavy savage run.

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If you actually go back and read the posts you've already responded to, you would see that I've presented far more than just Cure II as an argument. It is a major factor, but not the only factor.

And if WHMs are overhealing by 20-45%, they're bad WHMs, and SCH is far more likely to overheal simply because of their fairy.

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

If you actually go back and read the posts you've already responded to, you would see that I've presented far more than just Cure II as an argument. It is a major factor, but not the only factor.

And if WHMs are overhealing by 20-45%, they're bad WHMs, and SCH is far more likely to overheal simply because of their fairy.

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Yeah if you're really going to include stuff like asylum as single target healing then it would be fair to also factor in SCH's fey illumination/convenant into the equation as well. I also didn't factor in adlo crits, which would add another ~1200 potency to the rotation.

The Adlo/Physic rotation I posted has the exact same mana cost as WHM's pure cureII rotation, but SCH also has the option of adding more adlo's to beat WHM's HPS at the cost of mana.

The scenario I posted was also pure 45s of hardcasted healing - the more time healers spend dps'ing/not casting GCD heals, the better off SCH gets.

At worst, in a pure hardcasting scenario, SCH is equal to WHM in single target with the potential to be much better. IDK why you have such a hard time believing that healers not named AST are fairly balanced right now.

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

And if WHMs are overhealing by 20-45%, they're bad WHMs, and SCH is far more likely to overheal simply because of their fairy.

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Uh what? =(

30% is pretty typical overhealing for a WHM in Savage this tier whereas Exdeath will see you approaching 50%.

Minimising overheal is kind of a dated approach now with our MP as it is, instead you'll typically see top tier healers blasting HPS out in bursts with a 'damn the expense' mentality so they can get back to DPSing ASAP, thus the comments about Physick seeing so little use.

Do I think SCH is in a great place? No, not at all, it's still a shadow of what it was in ARR or SB, but it's certainly not 'out of the meta' either. It's raid DPS is still a long way ahead of AST and it has by far the strongest arrangement of CDs.

So what do I think is 'wrong' with SCH? Certainly as far as NeoExdeath goes, I think it's the 'harder' healer to heal alongside, on 34 pulls helping some friends on it the other night the healing was noticeably harder work than with my usual team. We just couldn't consistently mitigate Almagest to the same extent my AST does. That's a total reversal from SB where it was usually a lot easier healing alongside a SCH vs Double AST or WHM/AST =(

It always amazes me how people try to directly compare SCH and WHM/AST skills (adlo vs benefic2/cure2) while completely ignoring the fairy's healing potential and the fact that a SCH play style is totally different from a whm/ast play style.
Adlo+embrace is overall a better heal than benefic/cure2. Even more so with Rouse that can ideally be active for 1/3 of the fight. Also, shields>direct heals since they reduce overhealing.
As others have already said though, SCH is all about minimizing your gcd healing while maximizing healing done through your fairy and your ogcd abilities.
SCH right now is probably the healer with the highest skill ceiling, true, but at that ceiling it's an amazing asset to the party and it will likely be meta again.

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Originally Posted by technole

Dungeon-wise leveling at 65-68 is fine on SCH...
Excog is immensely useful, and should always be used when big damage is coming, even at <50% HP for the enhanced heal. Smart Lustrate use only if someone is in dire health, not burning them for top-ups or just to make one feel better about the HP bar. One or two Adlos on mega pulls to help make tank cooldowns more potent or when one isn't up, while going back to cleric stance damage.
But you can't be spamming Adlo/Succor on the job, and use of Physick should be limited as much as possible to where you are not using it normally. To the point where it has to be a button you had to reach to grab because the pull is that insane for anyone to handle.

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Dude, what? Do you even Scholar?

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Originally Posted by Tillen

Dude, what? Do you even Scholar?

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What? He's totally right. That's how you play SCH at a high level.
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/QYnP7...aling&source=8

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Originally Posted by Ogulbuk

If I'm tanking... I honestly think I'll also just drop out if the healer is a SCH.

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This is really gross.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

What? He's totally right. That's how you play SCH at a high level.
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/QYnP7...aling&source=8

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You're talking about O3S and he is talking about 65-68 dungeons. If you both mean in general oGCD vs GCD heals...well duh. But forcing SCH or any healer into a specific style is exactly the problem.

Are you healing a dungeon, lvl 70, lower, solo healing an ex-primal, 8man raid, 24man raid, main heals, off heals, dual SCH, pug, static, WHM, AST?
You're play style should change depending on the situation and the fight.

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Originally Posted by Tillen

You're talking about O3S and he is talking about 65-68 dungeons. If you both mean in general oGCD vs GCD heals...well duh. But forcing SCH or any healer into a specific style is exactly the problem.

Are you healing a dungeon, lvl 70, lower, solo healing an ex-primal, 8man raid, 24man raid, main heals, off heals, dual SCH, pug, static, WHM, AST?
You're play style should change depending on the situation and the fight.

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And still, some jobs are clearly designed in such a way that a prevalent play style emerges naturally. And this is particularly true for SCH. No matter if you're healing a dungeon or a end game raid, the same rules apply. Let your fairy work as much as you (and she) can because it's free healing basically. If the fairy is not enough, start using indomitability/excog/lustrate while you use gcd for dps spells. If you need even more healing or you need shields because of tank busters and heavy raid damage then start using adlo/succor and physicks as a last resort. That's it. This is how sch healing toolkit should be used if you want to play effeciently. It's a totally different healer from ast/whm.

It's okay, I'm not offended by comments from those who haven't even completed the hardest content in the game, let alone stepped into a Savage floor. Which of course requires high-end play of your job to even succeed at clearing a tier. Some will learn how high-level Scholar play works in-time. Sometimes they wonder how that other SCH is making everything look easy. Maybe they will come back to this thread and realize what it takes to get to that level.

You heal raids and dungeons in the same manner because of how the job is designed and what the job excels at. If you try to play SCH like a WHM, you will be spending more time manually healing and run yourself OOM. SCH is full of one-button heals that should be used as the first resort, not last resort. It's the same concept with tanking. If you just use your defensive cool downs as "oh crap" buttons you are not being very resourceful, and you will be causing your healers to be strained. It's the same with SCH, you'll only make your job harder if you don't take advantage of your oGCDs and keeping Aetherflow on cool down. Even the quickened Aetherflow trait encourages aggressive play with your stacks, which also builds the fairy gauge.

As for Eos, Rouse+Whispering Dawn is practically used on cooldown, whether in-dungeons or in raid play, to also not have the other healer manually cast Medica II/AH that much, along with Indom to top-up for mechanical damage. Every dungeon pull you'd pretty much have it up. That is your 2nd regen source. Now that you have that up, you can even switch to Fey Union on that mega-pull. But you probably didn't realize you can get WD up before she goes super-sayan tether heal mode.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

So what do I think is 'wrong' with SCH? Certainly as far as NeoExdeath goes, I think it's the 'harder' healer to heal alongside, on 34 pulls helping some friends on it the other night the healing was noticeably harder work than with my usual team. We just couldn't consistently mitigate Almagest to the same extent my AST does. That's a total reversal from SB where it was usually a lot easier healing alongside a SCH vs Double AST or WHM/AST =(

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I do think Noct AST is good for blind progression because of easily spamable mitigation along with CU while you are progressing. But with SCH handling Almagest it does require lining up cool downs because Deploy Adlo+Sacred Soil and whatever else you can use is really good to decrease the DoT.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

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This is the case in the best case scenarios but not every scenario is like that. Sometimes you get bad tanks that don't pop CDs, DPS that don't AoE after the tank has pulled everything from one boss to the next, people that seem to have cement in their shoes that can't run out of AoEs, etc. These situations have been much more prominent lately that SCH is sort stuck trying to be a reactive healer that it just isn't designed to be.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

This is the case in the best case scenarios but not every scenario is like that. Sometimes you get bad tanks that don't pop CDs, DPS that don't AoE after the tank has pulled everything from one boss to the next, people that seem to have cement in their shoes that can't run out of AoEs, etc. These situations have been much more prominent lately that SCH is sort stuck trying to be a reactive healer that it just isn't designed to be.

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That is the case if your party is not totally terrible. I can easily carry bad tanks during expert roulettes while still doing around 2k dps. I can keep tanks alive during big pulls even when they don't know what a defensive cooldown is while at least applying dots+bane because, again, excog, lustrate, and largesse adlo+roused embrace or even aetherpact are insanely powerful single target heals.
I admit that SCH is hard to play well, but it's a very powerful healer that can handle any bad situation in casual content and is absolutely amazing in raid if played correctly.
People that only want to spam powerful healing spells on the tank can try ast/whm. And by the way can we please stop this "reactive healer" nonsense? No healer in this game is reactive when played properly, especially SCH. Of course I'm talking about non-trivial content.

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Originally Posted by Dregenfox

Yeah if you're really going to include stuff like asylum as single target healing then it would be fair to also factor in SCH's fey illumination/convenant into the equation as well. I also didn't factor in adlo crits, which would add another ~1200 potency to the rotation.

The Adlo/Physic rotation I posted has the exact same mana cost as WHM's pure cureII rotation, but SCH also has the option of adding more adlo's to beat WHM's HPS at the cost of mana.

The scenario I posted was also pure 45s of hardcasted healing - the more time healers spend dps'ing/not casting GCD heals, the better off SCH gets.

At worst, in a pure hardcasting scenario, SCH is equal to WHM in single target with the potential to be much better. IDK why you have such a hard time believing that healers not named AST are fairly balanced right now.

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In practice though you're wrong.

If you look at FFlogs and sort by Player healing to Tanks guess which class for the most part isn't there.

There's like 1 Scholar up there for some fights, but if you look a bit deeper the group brought 2 casters that were essentially MP batteries for the Scholar.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

In practice though you're wrong.

If you look at FFlogs and sort by Player healing to Tanks guess which class for the most part isn't there.

There's like 1 Scholar up there for some fights, but if you look a bit deeper the group brought 2 casters that were essentially MP batteries for the Scholar.

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SCH usually isn't the main healer...the reason is because the opportunity cost is higher on WHM because if they can't hardcast their heals their oGCD's become terrible. Since WHM is forced to hardcast heals to be any good anyway, they are usually assigned the main healing role.

If you look at the logs, a significant portion of SCH is spent on DPS, lustrate, and indom. SCH's average ~13% less healing but ~16% more dps. A WHM forced to focus mainly on DPS will average much lower healing.

Slower/less expereinced groups also tend to rely on WHM more due to taking more widespread damage in general, which is where WHM shines in aoe HPS.

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Originally Posted by Dregenfox

SCH usually isn't the main healer...the reason is because the opportunity cost is higher on WHM because if they can't hardcast their heals their oGCD's become terrible. Since WHM is forced to hardcast heals to be any good anyway, they are usually assigned the main healing role.

If you look at the logs, a significant portion of SCH is spent on DPS, lustrate, and indom. SCH's average ~13% less healing but ~16% more dps. A WHM forced to focus mainly on DPS will average much lower healing.

Slower/less expereinced groups also tend to rely on WHM more due to taking more widespread damage in general, which is where WHM shines in aoe HPS.

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It doesn't matter that Sch is usually the offhealer. That metric looks at the most done by anyone reporting logs as that class. If you sort by Scholar pretty much they are fights where the Scholar is main healing.

With the exception of one scholar, who like I mentioned was probably getting mana batteried, the best Scholars when main healing consistently output ~400 HPS to the tanks less than when a Whm or Ast main heals.

It's pretty hard to claim that Scholar is a better single target healer when Scholar is short ~400HPS behind both Whm and Ast for healing the tanks.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

It doesn't matter that Sch is usually the offhealer. That metric looks at the most done by anyone reporting logs as that class. If you sort by Scholar pretty much they are fights where the Scholar is main healing.

With the exception of one scholar, who like I mentioned was probably getting mana batteried, the best Scholars when main healing consistently output ~400 HPS to the tanks less than when a Whm or Ast main heals.

It's pretty hard to claim that Scholar is a better single target healer when Scholar is short ~400HPS behind both Whm and Ast for healing the tanks.

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I wouldn't rely solely on fflogs to make that conclusion...SCH is also doing 300-400 more max DPS to bosses in those fights.. So drawing the conclusion that SCH DPS is higher than WHM just by those charts would be wrong, since WHM DPS is significantly higher than SCH even though most of the logs are showing the exact opposite.

...The other thing is that I don't even run out of mana anymore on SCH at 320 ilvl unless I'm forced to spam succor/raises, but aoe healing isn't really relevant to this discussion, besides the 1000 aoe pot/min from indom. SCH don't need mana batteries.

The best way to draw a conclusion would be pitting a WHM + WHM combo and seeing if they could match the HPS of a SCH + WHM combo while keeping the same combined DPS.