Tank Scaling still a massive issue

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Let's swap this around.

What if the Melee DPS classes could survive 80% of an encounter's tank busters while putting out around 80% the threat of a Tank-stance Tank?

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Then good for them, I hope they enjoy their class.

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Originally Posted by Falar

In game, whether FC chat, Linkshell, shout, whatever I have never seen anyone who mains a tank wanting a DPS nerf.

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What you see is only a fraction of the community, far from being any relevant sample to claim your opinion as a general one.
At least I have the onesty to only voice my personal opinion.

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Originally Posted by Capn_Goggles

The other two are packing the biggest, heaviest weapons in the game

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Basic MMO knowledge, what your character looks like doesn't have any relevance on what numbers you can do. For the record, this has higher defense than this.

And no, we won't need enmity patches. We'll just need to use our tank stance and/or our enmity combo more.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Let's swap this around.

What if the Melee DPS classes could survive 80% of an encounter's tank busters while putting out around 80% the threat of a Tank-stance Tank?

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Your absurd hypothetical isn't even remotely comparable, because all roles are designed to do damage, the other two just have additional responsibilities. Tanks have simpler rotations because they also have a responsibility to manage defensive cooldowns and tank-centric mechanics, as a consequence they should also do a bit less damage. 70-80% is not an unreasonable figure in this regard given that their responsibilities generally do not place so much pressure on them that they have to single-mindedly focus on it.

The only solution to a DPS meta is a complete overhaul of how the game works, and I don't see that happening in the near future.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Basic MMO knowledge, what your character looks like doesn't have any relevance on what numbers you can do. For the record, this has higher defense than this.

And no, we won't need enmity patches. We'll just need to use our tank stance and/or our enmity combo more.

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You're being pedantic. It's not just a matter of how it *looks*. Both WAR and DRK are pushed as offensively-focused tanks, warrior especially. Do you honestly thing anyone would want to tank if nothing about the process changed, and slamming a greataxe on a dragon's head gifted you with a 112!! while the SAM is pounding his head on the keyboard and landing 19,000!

And yes, they will need to do enmity patches in the future at the current rate because we have a whole slew of abilities beyond our enmity combo. Again, a ton of warrior stuff is EXCLUSIVE to their DPS stance, are you honestly telling us to ignore a solid 40% of our kit in favor of such a lazy, unrewarding playstyle?

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Originally Posted by Falar

In game, whether FC chat, Linkshell, shout, whatever I have never seen anyone who mains a tank wanting a DPS nerf.

I only see that stuff on the forums.

"I don't want to have to DPS"

"I just want enmity moves"

"I should not have to do anything but sit there and spam taunt/provoke style moves and defensive cooldowns"

"I don't want more attack power, I want more HP"

These are all things I only see posted here on the OF, never in the game itself.

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First of all, no one likes a nerf. No one says "yes please nerf my class". There were even posts saying "SE please dont nerf paladin!"

Secondly those are all hyperbolize. No one says tanks need to do no damage at all. No one wants only enmity moves. No one wants to only spam provoke. And defiantly no one wants more HP, if anything our HP is overinflated as it is.

There seems to be this weird idea that you can only do one or the other. Either we have damage, or we have tank mechanics. When in reality its possible to have a reasonable amount of both, but right now our focus is more on damage than tank.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Let's swap this around.

What if the Melee DPS classes could survive 80% of an encounter's tank busters while putting out around 80% the threat of a Tank-stance Tank?

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The 20% of tank busters they can't survive would prevent people from bringing no tank to certain fights though. If they can survive every tank buster then they'll just become the new tanks and people won't bring "actual" tanks.

Also don't forget that dps jobs have their own utilities as well, from raid dps buffs to really high personal dps. Tanks and healers just bring different utilities like aggro control, mitigation and healing. If it weren't for fflogs separating standard 2/2/4 composition parses form non standard composition, people would have been using solo tank or solo heal compositions for the speedkill race.

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Originally Posted by Inuakurei

Secondly those are all hyperbolize. No one says tanks need to do no damage at all. No one wants only enmity moves. No one wants to only spam provoke. And defiantly no one wants more HP, if anything our HP is overinflated as it is.

There seems to be this weird idea that you can only do one or the other. Either we have damage, or we have tank mechanics. When in reality its possible to have a reasonable amount of both, but right now our focus is more on damage than tank.

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I think the main concern here is that different people have different threshold for "reasonable amount" when it comes to how much dps tanks and healers should bring. Some people want tanks to do 70-80% of dps jobs, some want 40-50%, I don't think we can find a number which everyone would agree on.

If we keep the current str scaling on accs then we'll just feel less rewarded for gearing up compared to other jobs. It feels bad when a fending acc drops when you clear o1s. Those 2 str and 17 vit won't help you as much as 14 main stats for another job, including healers. Dps wise, 2 str would be even smaller than 14 main stats for another job. Survivability and mitigation wise, you'll never require the extra vit you gain from i340 gear to clear the raid since if that's the case no one would be able to clear the raid until their tanks have full i340 right side. 1.7k hp (5x 17 vit = 85 vit) is also really unlikely to allow your healers to heal you for less gcds, it's also really unlikely to allow you stay out of tank stance longer.

My group got a fending ring yesterday, and even though I was the one who got it, I wish it would've dropped dps or healer accessories instead since that'd provide more benefit for my group. I'd rather have the devs reduce our potencies while giving us full amount of dps main stats on both left and right side gear. At least that way it won't feel as terrible as now when I see fending accessories drop.

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Originally Posted by Inuakurei

First of all, no one likes a nerf. No one says "yes please nerf my class". There were even posts saying "SE please dont nerf paladin!"

Secondly those are all hyperbolize. No one says tanks need to do no damage at all. No one wants only enmity moves. No one wants to only spam provoke. And defiantly no one wants more HP, if anything our HP is overinflated as it is.
There seems to be this weird idea that you can only do one or the other. Either we have damage, or we have tank mechanics. When in reality its possible to have a reasonable amount of both, but right now our focus is more on damage than tank.

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I disagree. Our primary focus is still to hold enmity and place the boss appropriately while staying alive. You have to do those things or you fail in your role.

What separates the good tanks from the amazing tanks is the ability to play a more risky style (and are backed by competent healers) and deal a lot more damage while still accomplishing the tank requirements.

You can play either way and succeed (i.e. clear the content) either way but the aggressive style will always do it faster all else being equal. That will never change no matter what changes come to the game. More group damage = faster clear. No way around that formula.

Those weren't all hyperbole either. There have been plenty of threads and comments in this section along those lines.

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Originally Posted by Capn_Goggles

70-80% is not an unreasonable figure in this regard given that their responsibilities generally do not place so much pressure on them that they have to single-mindedly focus on it.

The only solution to a DPS meta is a complete overhaul of how the game works, and I don't see that happening in the near future.

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Oh, no, that extra responsibility of pushing a cooldown when the tank buster comes in, or swapping when the forced tankswaps come in.

The 'absurd' hypothetical when someone else infringes on your main purpose of existence should be more than enough to shine the light on why a Tank character dealing comparable damage to a Damage Dealing class is an issue. 70% is like, the absolute most. And at the numbers presented, the range of 60-70% seems to be where the tanks able to DPS stance sit, which is not only a fair number, but comparable to their numbers in the expansion everyone is rose-tinted goggling over.

There's no argument that you shouldn't maximize what you can where you can, which goes without question in the top content, but if the equally 'skilled' Samurai in equal gear is putting out 5,000, in no way or form is it fair in any regard that the most durable person in the raid should be putting out 4,000.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

We have been over this. Weakness only lowers STR/DEX/INT/MND, not VIT. In your scenario, tank DPS and HP are both governed by VIT. So, dying would not have any penalty for tanks at all? Do you think that's balanced?

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I don't think that's a worthy excuse for the plethora of complications that splitting the stats cause. If they reverted the change, they could just accompany it with a weakness change to give a magic/damage down debuff instead of it being tied to the Stats. There is no reason the Weakness debuff should have that kind affect on how gear and what stats tanks scale off of.

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Originally Posted by Capn_Goggles

And yes, they will need to do enmity patches in the future at the current rate because we have a whole slew of abilities beyond our enmity combo. Again, a ton of warrior stuff is EXCLUSIVE to their DPS stance, are you honestly telling us to ignore a solid 40% of our kit in favor of such a lazy, unrewarding playstyle?

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Sure, because everybody knows a WAR is always main tanking, right ? No off-tanking, no tank swapping...besides, I'm pretty sure WARs were pretty ok with ignoring Inner Beast and Steel Cyclone during 3.x...and now they simply advocate removing Unchained alltogether. So, yes, apparently, they are ok ignoring "a solid 40% of their toolkit"...including their tank stance.

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Originally Posted by Capn_Goggles

And yes, they will need to do enmity patches in the future at the current rate because we have a whole slew of abilities beyond our enmity combo.

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On a PLD, all this'll mean is using Rage of Halone a little more over Royal Authority.

On a DRK that means using non-DA Power Slash combo before returning to using Dark Arts + Syphon Strike/Bloodspiller/Carve & Spit/Souleater/Dark Passenger.

WAR might be the only one affected by this, since you'd have to use Butcher's Block a bit more vs spamming Storm's Path for 20 gauge, but that points more to how staggered gauge generation is on WAR and will hopefully lead to the devs addressing it (really, why the hell doesn't Heavy Swing generate gauge?).

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Again, a ton of warrior stuff is EXCLUSIVE to their DPS stance, are you honestly telling us to ignore a solid 40% of our kit

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Stuff locked behind Deliverance: Fel Cleave, Decimate, Inner Release, Equilibrium TP recovery.

That's a far cry from 40%.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

My group got a fending ring yesterday, and even though I was the one who got it, I wish it would've dropped dps or healer accessories instead since that'd provide more benefit for my group. I'd rather have the devs reduce our potencies while giving us full amount of dps main stats on both left and right side gear. At least that way it won't feel as terrible as now when I see fending accessories drop.

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By this logic, you don't need the DPS accessories to clear it either, because Omega is done. I mean, sure , it'll clear -faster-, but not much faster than the people who get consistent fending and healing drops.

The scaling is still a major issue yes. The Problem is that tank right side starts at about 36% of dps right side, but scales only with 14%. Tanks get only 1 mingy STR point per right side upgrade.

Groups will still be disappointed when they see tank accessoiries drop, tanks still need to pass on right side upgrade items in favor of improving the group as a whole and crafted right side will be best in slot for the whole tier again.

I don't know why SE has such a problem addressing these issues. They have them since the 2.x days and it gets really frustrating ...

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

By this logic, you don't need the DPS accessories to clear it either, because Omega is done. I mean, sure , it'll clear -faster-, but not much faster than the people who get consistent fending and healing drops.

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If there was only one Omega trial. But there are 3 more, increasingly hard, trials afterward. Chances are the upgrades will help them with V2 ect.
In that way tanking accs. are a detriment since they provide much less overall benefit.

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Originally Posted by Alphras

Groups will still be disappointed when they see tank accessoiries drop, tanks still need to pass on right side upgrade items in favor of improving the group as a whole and crafted right side will be best in slot for the whole tier again.

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What? How on earth does passing on a fending accessory now improve the group? It's not like that fending accessory magically turns into a dps or healer accessory...

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Originally Posted by Alphras

The scaling is still a major issue yes. The Problem is that tank right side starts at about 36% of dps right side, but scales only with 14%. Tanks get only 1 mingy STR point per right side upgrade.

Groups will still be disappointed when they see tank accessoiries drop, tanks still need to pass on right side upgrade items in favor of improving the group as a whole and crafted right side will be best in slot for the whole tier again.

I don't know why SE has such a problem addressing these issues. They have them since the 2.x days and it gets really frustrating ...

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The core issue is that VIT is a worthless stat. Until that changes, Fending acessories will always be worse. They could give Fending all the STR they want, but unless its equal or greater to the STR that a dps accessory would give, groups will always be disappointed by a Fending drop. More STR isn't the issue, useless VIT is.

The only true way to fix this, is to rework VIT into something useful. In my opinion think the entire Tank role needs an overhaul.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

By this logic, you don't need the DPS accessories to clear it either, because Omega is done. I mean, sure , it'll clear -faster-, but not much faster than the people who get consistent fending and healing drops.

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But dps always benefits the group, since it covers for mistakes (deaths, missed uptime/positionals, failed casts, suboptimal strategies) which happen a lot during prog. Also sometimes you're racing against dps checks or enrage timers. There is a reason why most, if not all progression groups give upgrade items to dps first before tanks/healers.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

What? How on earth does passing on a fending accessory now improve the group? It's not like that fending accessory magically turns into a dps or healer accessory...

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He was talking about upgrade item, whatever the new thing is called (was gobcoat in alex savage). Unless the tank upgrades belt, the priority for gobcoat should be dps > healer > tank (dps > tank > healer if the tank upgrades belt).

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

But dps always benefits the group, since it covers for mistakes (deaths, missed uptime/positionals, failed casts, suboptimal strategies) which happen a lot during prog. Also sometimes you're racing against dps checks or enrage timers. There is a reason why most, if not all progression groups give upgrade items to dps first before tanks/healers.



He was talking about upgrade item, whatever the new thing is called (was gobcoat in alex savage). Unless the tank upgrades belt, the priority for gobcoat should be dps > healer > tank (dps > tank > healer if the tank upgrades belt).

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Ah, my bad. Missed that.

The scaling issue is only a perception thing really. Not an actual gameplay issue.
First I want to stress that it is inconceivable that the current savage was balanced with the additional tank STR in game. There was simply no time for SE to rebalance with the 4.05 change. Realistically, they put the STR on fending accessories to exactly match the 270 onces (with substats considered) and did a quick regression test to verify that it's significantly trivializing the raids.
It's pretty obvious from the +2 STR on the 340 accessories.


Anyways, SE designed/balanced the raid content with a certain idea of Tank DPS and they already gave us more than that target.
As for scaling or power growth, we just got it delivered up front and is not a scaling issue.

Consider this, a Tank and a DPS are given a project (upgrade their accessories) for an end reward of X attack power (being different values for Tank/DPS).
The DPS is offered 20% of the payment for each milestones (accessory upgrade).
The Tank is offered 75% as upfront payment before starting the work, and 5% for each milestone.
Both get their due reward at the end of the day.

Sure we get less AP than a DPS at the end of the day, but from a scaling perspective, the tank got the better deal.
The issues is that getting the small increase after putting a lot of work feels unrewarding but that's all.

Now I'm confident that the next raid content will be better scaled for a more linear increase in AP for tank since the content and gear can now be designed with the added STR to fending accessories in mind.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Personally, it's because I don't care about any damage modification based solely on gear.
And that's even before mentioning that turtle tanking has more appeal to me since I admit it's only a personal preference.

If the enmity dump skills are enough, then the main concern of this topic is a non-issue...which it already isn't since we have a huge enmity generation anyway.

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Your argument makes 0 sense. You want them to nerf tank damage, because you prefer to sit in tank stance when there is 0 reason to, unless you're running with a healer that can't keep you up? -- makes 0 sense.

Just because you don't care about contributing to your group through damage, while still meeting tank buster checks and keeping aggro, doesn't mean other's don't. As for your rotation and cool downs, it's not hard to memorize out going tank busters. I'd hope you know your rotations and cool downs, as that's the bare minimal for any fight and for any role, the entire system runs on a clock and burst windows.

The main concern of this topic won't be a issue for a very long time, as stated multiple times by the OP. They are just trying to address a possible issue that can become huge..

But bringing down tank damage for the sake of forcing people into a other wise non desired stance is purposely being ignorant. Damage should not be nerf, out going damage to the tanks should be increased to give meaning to defensive stances and defensive stats. Though the only time this is seen at is during progression.

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Originally Posted by Shinkyo

Consider this, a Tank and a DPS are given a project (upgrade their accessories) for an end reward of X attack power (being different values for Tank/DPS).
The DPS is offered 20% of the payment for each milestones (accessory upgrade).
The Tank is offered 75% as upfront payment before starting the work, and 5% for each milestone.
Both get their due reward at the end of the day.

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The "X" in this equation is what matters the most. The tank is offered 75% upfront. But 75% of what and an additional 5% of what? If the variable "x" for attack power is 50 for tanks, but the DPS attack power variable "x" is 200, as that's their payment for each patch cycle of gear, then the gap between tanks and DPS increases each patch cycle, instead of staying a static amount different from each other.

As for you being confidant in what SE is going to do, that's cool. But really no one knows what their going to do until they do it.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

But dps always benefits the group, since it covers for mistakes (deaths, missed uptime/positionals, failed casts, suboptimal strategies) which happen a lot during prog. Also sometimes you're racing against dps checks or enrage timers. There is a reason why most, if not all progression groups give upgrade items to dps first before tanks/healers.

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You can contextualize it all you want, the fact of the matter is that getting 'fending' one week is no different than getting 'slaying' another, because the stuff is clearable with the i320 crafted / Omega story.

In this regard, getting fending over DPS/Healing isn't a huge detriment, especially since it's only on the right side, which is significantly less than leftside upgrades.

I can't speak for the day-1 clearers, but I doubt any of them saw nothing but Slaying drop, and those drops likely did not influence the clear orders at any significant margin.

The issue I have with the small amount of STR added is now the crafted Fending rings every even patch cycle will always outweigh the supposed best. Just meld in the first slot and overmeld Direct Hit or Tenacity in everything else.

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Originally Posted by Seku

The "X" in this equation is what matters the most. The tank is offered 75% upfront. But 75% of what and an additional 5% of what? If the variable "x" for attack power is 50 for tanks, but the DPS attack power variable "x" is 200, as that's their payment for each patch cycle of gear, then the gap between tanks and DPS increases each patch cycle, instead of staying a static amount different from each other.

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I'm not trying to put words in Shinkyo's text. But I think your trying to draw too much from that example. X is an undefined variable, it would be however much AP increases per str for that given role. The % in reference are the str we have on accessories now (75%) and the (5 x 5%) is the small +2 str from each accessory. Whereas dps get an "upgrade" each step, I think what he's basically saying is we got our "upgrade" upfront with the addition of str, and a small bonus each new accessory.

They should be able to better balance str amounts on dps and tanks moving forward, as others said it was just an emergency fix regarding 270 accessories so they had to balance it with the content already designed. Tanks do not need the same AP as dps right now. There is no scaling issue currently, there is no dps issue currently.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I'm not trying to put words in Shinkyo's text. But I think your trying to draw too much from that example. X is an undefined variable, it would be however much AP increases per str for that given role. The % in reference are the str we have on accessories now (75%) and the (5 x 5%) is the small +2 str from each accessory. Whereas dps get an "upgrade" each step, I think what he's basically saying is we got our "upgrade" upfront with the addition of str, and a small bonus each new accessory.

They should be able to better balance str amounts on dps and tanks moving forward, as others said it was just an emergency fix regarding 270 accessories so they had to balance it with the content already designed. Tanks do not need the same AP as dps right now. There is no scaling issue currently, there is no dps issue currently.

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You may not have put word into my mouth but you perfectly conveyed my thoughts :-)

Even if tank accessories had all str they would still be a worse drop for raid dps than getting a dps accessory drop. The whole argument that the raid is collectively disappointed at a fending drop is a strawman argument as they'll be disappointed no matter what stats are on a tank drop. It's a tank drop.

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Originally Posted by DacienSanderon

Even if tank accessories had all str they would still be a worse drop for raid dps than getting a dps accessory drop. The whole argument that the raid is collectively disappointed at a fending drop is a strawman argument as they'll be disappointed no matter what stats are on a tank drop. It's a tank drop.

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That's no excuse; it's a matter of degree. i340 Fending accessories are dangerously close to "not even an upgrade," especially when considering i320 crafted accessories.

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

That's no excuse; it's a matter of degree. i340 Fending accessories are dangerously close to "not even an upgrade," especially when considering i320 crafted accessories.

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Would it really be better if Omega drops were the only option for gear ?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Would it really be better if Omega drops were the only option for gear ?

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Considering it has 20 higher ilv, it's bullshit how marginal the improvement is compared to non overmelded i320 crafted accs or lakshmi accs. But hey, at the very least I get 2 more str from 20 ilv upgrade, so it's still not as bad as gordias or pre 4.05, since pure vit acc drops would be literal garbage for progression.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

You can contextualize it all you want, the fact of the matter is that getting 'fending' one week is no different than getting 'slaying' another, because the stuff is clearable with the i320 crafted / Omega story.

In this regard, getting fending over DPS/Healing isn't a huge detriment, especially since it's only on the right side, which is significantly less than leftside upgrades.

I can't speak for the day-1 clearers, but I doubt any of them saw nothing but Slaying drop, and those drops likely did not influence the clear orders at any significant margin.

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All accessory upgrades provide marginal benefit, but the main dmg stat gain from upgrading a i320 fending acc is 1/7 of the other jobs so that's still a bad thing.

For low ilv progression dps gain would help in covering for mistakes as I mentioned before. Tanks having more hp is also helpful to cover for mistakes, but 1.5k hp on a tank is way less valuable than let's say 1.5k hp on a dps or healer if you consider the type of damage we are taking. 1.5k extra hp is way less likely to save a tank from a tank buster in case of a mistake in mitigation or healing, compared to 1.5k extra hp to save a dps from getting one shot by aoe or mechanics. I'd argue extra hp past the amount provided by minimum ilv gear to clear the raid is least valuable on a tank.

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Originally Posted by DacienSanderon

Even if tank accessories had all str they would still be a worse drop for raid dps than getting a dps accessory drop. The whole argument that the raid is collectively disappointed at a fending drop is a strawman argument as they'll be disappointed no matter what stats are on a tank drop. It's a tank drop.

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I don't really get where you see a straw man there, but your argument just shows that Square didn't address any of the problems and there are still major issues with tank scalling. And there is a difference between worse and borderline useless.

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

i340 Fending accessories are dangerously close to "not even an upgrade," especially when considering i320 crafted accessories.

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Crafted accessories, if penta melded, are already better than ilvl 340 afaik and the margin should be quite big with the introduction of Direct Hit.



Edit: Well they did address the ilvl 270 STR accessory problem.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

Considering it has 20 higher ilv, it's bullshit how marginal the improvement is compared to non overmelded i320 crafted accs or lakshmi accs.

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Frankly, for me, Omega Savage shouldn't even drop accessories. It would give room to create a relevant content in 4.1, even for people who already farmed O1S completely.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Frankly, for me, Omega Savage shouldn't even drop accessories. It would give room to create a relevant content in 4.1, even for people who already farmed O1S completely.

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Frankly for me it'd be better if o1s doesn't even drop fending accs, since that'll guarantee that we'd get healer accs or dps accs instead lol.

There is always a room for contents with relevant drops. We have four (?) secondary stats, so not counting reversed allocation (crit/det vs det/crit for example) there are still 6 possible combinations. 2 are taken by tomestone gear and savage gear, so there are still options. They could also add stat customization like anima weapons for savage weapons, so those who can clear savage raids don't have to grind for their BiS weapon months after the raid tier was released.

The devs also mentioned about some super hard fight being released in odd patches so there's a possibility of some kind of relevant drops there.

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Originally Posted by Inuakurei

The core issue is that VIT is a worthless stat. Until that changes, Fending acessories will always be worse. They could give Fending all the STR they want, but unless its equal or greater to the STR that a dps accessory would give, groups will always be disappointed by a Fending drop. More STR isn't the issue, useless VIT is.

The only true way to fix this, is to rework VIT into something useful. In my opinion the entire Tank role needs an overhaul.

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How so, if you've anything concrete in mind already?

Earnestly curious.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

How so, if you've anything concrete in mind already?

Earnestly curious.

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I'd rather see vit as a secondary stat built into all our gear or just built into our character's base hp stat (or even mitigation). Generally hp has a threshold where it starts to diminish in value (past the minimum hp you require to survive, extra hp only matters if it allows for a different mitigation/healing rotation that yields more dps), while dps stats are always beneficial no matter how much you gain.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

while dps stats are always beneficial no matter how much you gain.

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Enter +2 str... lol

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

Snip

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How is that any different from the current situation?
STR and VIT now being completely independent, you can pretty consider STR as our primary and VIT as a secondary.
Having VIT on our gear in no way affect how much STR we get, so their is no conflict between the 2.
The only thing limiting factor is how much AP SE wants Tanks to have for a particular content tier and in relation to DPS AP.
All people are complaining about is tanks doing less dps than DPS class and feeling their don\\'t have enough weight in the total raid DPS. It\\'s valid but is only a perception issue. It\\'s doesn\\'t affect gameplay in anyways.

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Originally Posted by Shinkyo

All people are complaining about is tanks doing less dps than DPS class and feeling their don\\'t have enough weight in the total raid DPS. It\\'s valid but is only a perception issue. It\\'s doesn\\'t affect gameplay in anyways.

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I can't speak for everyone (unlike you, apparently), but my issue is that tank gear progression, with regards to Fending accessories, is highly unsatisfying. I would like Fending accessories to have as much impact on tanks as the respective counterparts do on other jobs; I really don't think that's asking too much.

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

Tanks should be more then a convenient meatshield that makes mobs look at them instead of you.

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That's what tanking is. The problem is that SE made the role less challenging than other MMOs, so players turn to damage as a way of contributing and differentiating themselves.

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

I can't speak for everyone (unlike you, apparently), but my issue is that tank gear progression, with regards to Fending accessories, is highly unsatisfying. I would like Fending accessories to have as much impact on tanks as the respective counterparts do on other jobs; I really don't think that's asking too much.

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That's really kind of a silly argument. First off, there's been hardly any gear progression at all. We know SE limiting the addition of str was due to balancing with current content, just enough so people wouldn't use 270 accessories. They didn't even have to do that, so it just seems a bit early to claim there is a problem with gear progression - we are at the first step! Lol. We have no idea what the progression will look like beyond 340.

Secondly, sure, +7 per 10 ilvl is better than +1 per 10 ilvl. But let's not act like 1 accessory provides a noticeable impact on any other job. Especially if you consider the loss of substats sometimes, it's not always an "upgrade" for dps. Like if you are swapping 100 crit for 100 skill speed, it might not be beneficial to the rotation until you can drop the skill speed on another piece of gear, etc. Or vice versa, if you need a set amount of skill speed for your rotation and get a new accessory with crit and det, yea it's an upgrade but you can't use it until you get something to replace the skill speed. Or similarly when the tome gear accessory is more powerful than the raid drop, it'd still be disappointing to see when it could've been a better tank or healer drop. I certainly ran into situations like that raiding on drg through hw (though how prevalent this is in SB I do not know)

Tank accessories have more meaning now than they had last week, that's the important part. SE can now balance tank dps and HP seperately, this is important as well. We'll just have to see how they handle it moving forward, there's no real reason for them to make any further adjustments at this time.

Instead of arbitrary values though I don't know why they just didn't go with 50% of the VIT.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Tank accessories have more meaning now than they had last week, that's the important part. SE can now balance tank dps and HP seperately, this is important as well. We'll just have to see how they handle it moving forward, there's no real reason for them to make any further adjustments at this time.

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This statement is very important to understand. Yes the fending accessories are only gaining 2 strength for those 20 item levels, but I don't expect it to scale linearly every 20 item levels. Like whiskeybravo said, separating our damage and HP into two stats allows them to balance them that much easier. Lets say when they release the next savage tier, the strength difference might be more than it is now. SE is easily going to be able to put whatever strength value on those fending accessories they need to in order to scale the tanks correctly.

TLDR dont expect the strength scaling on accessories to be linear throughout the entire xpac.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

We know SE limiting the addition of str was due to balancing with current content, just enough so people wouldn't use 270 accessories.

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Do we know that? I suspect as much, but it's still cause for concern, in my opinion. Let's not forget that Fending accessories for the longest time had no Attack Power. It's not like this is a new issue; rather, we've regressed. Incidentally, how do you feel about the idea of i320 crafted accessories being superior to i340 raid accessories?

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We have no idea what the progression will look like beyond 340.

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Fair enough, but I would like to voice my concern while I wait and see.

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But let's not act like 1 accessory provides a noticeable impact on any other job.

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Never said it was noticeable (but it is); I said I would like them to have the same impact.