Healer adjustment in 4.05

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Originally Posted by CreinCrein

Yet none of the top 10 fastest recorded clears runs double AST, if we're talking about SCH/Noct AST competing for the same raid slot with an AST as the co-healer. Nobody thinking about optimizing a raid comp would even consider double AST for a couple of key reasons. Output is non-comparable, you shoot yourself and your co in the foot percentile-wise in both HPS and DPS. You also forgot to mention Chain Strat which when buff stacking with a co's balance, BV, BL, TA, Hypercharge or whatever buffs your party throws up is exponential and more consistent.

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They don't stack exponentially, they stack multiplicatively, and the effect of chain strat is not that amazing. Look at the damage output graphs you'll see that the peaks aren't astronomically higher than the trophs, certainly not to the heights that you'd expect from exponential growth. 15% multiplicative crit chance is simply not that great. Let's put it this way; the sam's crit chance seems to be around 22-24% overall which means his crit damage multiplier is around 57%. 15% multiplicative crit chance gives him a damage multiplier of approximately 5.3% (while it is up, not overall). Yes, this 5.3% is multiplied by other damage buffs that are active at the time, but it takes a lot of multipliers to make a low number into a not low number.

The raid dps during the initial period of chain stratagem is approximately double that after it; if we generously double the input of chain stratagem from 5.3% to 10.6%, with it's uptime of 45 seconds out of 5:45, or 13%, that means you've got a whopping 1.37% damage from chain strat, for that sam - and that is with a few particularly generous assumptions.

I don't know what you mean about more consistent, it would take incredible bad luck to have lower uptime on balance than on chain strat.

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Originally Posted by CreinCrein

FFlogs takes away overheal, lol. It is subtracted and not calculated in the percentiles and numerical values listed, just like how it takes away overkill dps. Click the "raw healing" tab to include the excluded overheal. *facepalm*

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Yes, I am aware of that? It's where I got the percentages from? My points still stand.

Also you should keep in mind that especially with the top parses, it's not that the other healers can't reach similar values, it's that they don't need to. They plan to maximize efficiency, and this is what you're seeing. In the second log especially the AST isn't reaching the same HPS because they simply don't have to, as they planned around Eos.

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Originally Posted by Furious

I must be misunderstanding what you're saying, because what you proved in your analysis is that balance + ast is pretty much always more overall damage than whm can be given same relative skill between players in a group (and thus relatively uniform growth in dps between the ast/whm/total group dps). At best, the whm is nearly as good as the ast; at worst, it's nearly half the damage.

But, the quote you posted said "1) idc how bad you are your basic combo plus a balance of any potency will be more damage then a whm.", and you said he is completely wrong.. even though you proved him completely right? I feel like I'm either completely misunderstanding your post, or your misunderstood the person you quoted...

The only time a whm can compete with an ast on overall damage contribution in an 8-man group is if the healer's personal skill or gear (atleast in terms of damage contribution) is significantly higher than the group they are in.

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My interpretation of the comment I responded to was "anyone jamming 1-2-3 combo and getting any level of balance (10%, 20%, 30%) would allow the AST to contribute more DPS than WHM - period, no matter what, or how". I just proved that a well played WHM could out do the AST contributions.

The thing about AST is that the DPS they provide is a function of the party's player skill. If DPS skill is well... average, a well played WHM can exceed the DPS gained from playing AST at a lower skill level due to comfort level.

As a more direct example, a 1600 DPS WHM would be able to contribute more than a AST who gives 800DPS and can provide a Expanded Balance uptime of 33.3% on a 16,000DPS group (combined total DPS is 1,128).

To me, anyone jamming 1-2-3 combo all day every day would probably be less than a 50th precentile DPS on logs and effectively reducing the AST contribution through Balance by more than half in my above example.

[edit] Just to be clear - at the highest levels of play on the logs, AST's contribution is ridiculously high thanks to the skill level being played at that skill tier. AST at that tier will definitely outshine WHM (by a fair margin if you look at my previous post - 13% is nothing to scoff at).

However, for the average midcore raider, that "contribution" starts to enter a grey area. Hence my comment that it's important for people to play what they're comfortable with as they'll generally perform better on those roles.

Chain Strategem is a flat 15% crit chance increase. Also I've already proven my point, eos and sch ogcds are still strong enough to be a backbone to an entire healing composition while nocturnal has nothing even remotely close.

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Originally Posted by Cressidia

Adjustment Details:
■Scholar
・The introduction of “Miasma II” as a job specific skill.
・Changed the cooldown of Emergency Tactics to 20 seconds.
・Indomitability [stay tuned]
・Strengthening Excogitation.
・Changed the range of Fey Union to 15 malms.
・ Aetherpact has been changed to increase Faerie Gauge even when Aetherflow actions does not inflict an effect on the target.
・Introduction of a trait reducing the cooldown of Aetherflow.

■Astrologian
・Arcana and Royal Road cards can now be discarded via an action.

■White Mage
・Adjustments to the rate of which Healing Lilies are granted.
・Plenary Indulgence will see some major adjustments.


:) SCH seem good so far but i think there will be more . AST get another buff

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AST dont get a buff at all, SE screwed up not allowing us to discard the Royal Road effect cards, which now requires a Skill to do what a simple mouse click did before.

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Originally Posted by CreinCrein

Chain Strategem is a flat 15% crit chance increase. Also I've already proven my point, eos and sch ogcds are still strong enough to be a backbone to an entire healing composition while nocturnal has nothing even remotely close.

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Nocturnal can just as easily fill the same role. They don't because if you still need two healers for content (ie, can't single-heal), then if you bring a SCH for Chain Strategem and Eos its SCH shields cannot stack with Noct AST's so going that route is a little disagreeable. It's less a factor of what a Noct AST can do, and more that the NoctAST/SCH pair just does not synergize with shields in the slightest.

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Originally Posted by OcieKo

Your math is off. Its 575:300 base 575:600 crit, 900 SCH crit is adding in the heal but not the crit potency addition. 862 i think is trying to account for the crit potency addition but not the base heal. Since the base heal would make it 805v900 if neither have crits effect on the base heal in consideration.
But rougly the math should look like AST: (230*CPot)*2.5 = SPot, SCH: (300*CPot)*2 = SPot, so your looking at balancing 575*CPot to 600*CPot and Crit Potency is below 200% now in SB how much I'm not sure.

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You'll find that my math is perfectly accurate once you account for the crit potency.
I didn't spell it all out in this post, but its pretty simple.
sch shield potency is 300. crit potency is 50%. crit shield is 300*1.5*2.0 = 900
ast shield potency is 200*1.15*2.5 =575. crit is 1.5 more, 862.5.

crit potency seems to be a set 50% in SB, while in HW it scaled with crit rating, it was easy to have more than 50% potency with high crit. That seems to no longer be the case, but I'll need to get more crit rating to properly test it.

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Originally Posted by LegoTechnic

Nocturnal can just as easily fill the same role. They don't because if you still need two healers for content (ie, can't single-heal), then if you bring a SCH for Chain Strategem and Eos its SCH shields cannot stack with Noct AST's so going that route is a little disagreeable. It's less a factor of what a Noct AST can do, and more that the NoctAST/SCH pair just does not synergize with shields in the slightest.

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Show me a noct AST doing 3000 hps while doing 98+th percentile dps, I can already tell you it doesn't exist. Not even remotely close, only possible when you're mainhealing in diurnal in which case you'd have a SCH co with eos assisting you. Also . . . what? We're talking about N.Ast and SCH competing for the same raid slot. Bringing up N.Ast/Sch is just straight up memeing.

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Originally Posted by CreinCrein

Show me a noct AST doing 3000 hps while doing 98+th percentile dps, I can already tell you it doesn't exist. Not even remotely close, only possible when you're mainhealing in diurnal in which case you'd have a SCH co with eos assisting you. Also . . . what? We're talking about N.Ast and SCH competing for the same raid slot. Bringing up N.Ast/Sch is just straight up memeing.

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Never leave the world you live in. It seems a fun place.

If you're looking for a parse where a Noct AST is playing the DPS role then you have to look at an AST/AST parse, because in situations where it's WHM/NoctAST it is almost always preferable for the WHM to DPS over the AST due to both better potency and better mana management. AST's primary DPS contribution is in its card buffs which mostly outshine its individual benefits, so having it attempt personal DPS benchmarks is less optimal than it would be for any other healer. There's nothing outright wrong with this because the card buffs are simply that good, but if personal showing on fflogs is the center of your concerns then I'm afraid that is something you may just have to accept.

I was speaking from the context of having a diurnal AST as a co-healer, while the open spot was to be a discussion between N.Ast and SCH. Your track record- claiming I was exaggerating when you didn't put effort to look at the logs to see otherwise. Using resource-less over-heal as an argument when it just proved my point further. Answer this one question though: why aren't top statics pushing the edge of what is optimally possible using either WHM/AST or AST/AST more frequently if either of those comps have any merit. Players that exceed your experience and skill. Prove me wrong. List some parses, logs ANY evidence at all.

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Originally Posted by CreinCrein

I was speaking from the context of having a diurnal AST as a co-healer, while the open spot was to be a discussion between N.Ast and SCH. Your track record- claiming I was exaggerating when you didn't put effort to look at the logs to see otherwise. Using resource-less over-heal as an argument when it just proved my point further. Answer this one question though: why aren't top statics pushing the edge of what is optimally possible using either WHM/AST or AST/AST more frequently if either of those comps have any merit. Players that exceed your experience and skill. Prove me wrong. List some parses, logs ANY evidence at all.

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I don't like to play this game because it will go back and forth so don't expect me to humor you much more with it, but this actually wasn't all that hard to find. I'm not going to say it's common as Susano in general is very optimal for Eos, and it's further difficult to post AST DPS benefits because they don't really tie Balance contribution to the AST itself in logs, but if all you want is an example then here's a Susano Noct AST with a WHM partner whose values you can compare. It's pretty hot stuff with that 56% party Balance uptime, which is obviously not the most common of situations outside of top parses but is still pretty neat (and difficult to calculate the numerical benefit of).

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/GLKnC...tical&source=8

something i don't udnerstand.. AST shields are stronger than SCH shields, but AST isn't dependant on them, i mean they can switch these shields off if they prefer to heal. while sch, can only switch them off once every 20 seconds, why don't they just give SCH another healing mode just like ast? instead of emeregecy tactics, make sch go in full healing mode or shielding mode.

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/jk1Xa...pe=damage-done, more optimal healer parse run; faster clear, yadada. All runs exceeding that one are AST/SCH. Also you didn't answer my question: why aren't more statics FREQUENTLY comping AST/AST or WHM/AST if it is more optimal than AST/SCH. Why isn't there consistency with those comps and why are SCH/AST comps outperforming WHM/AST comps in the majority of logs listed.

AST/SCH will be the optimal comp, again. You just can't beat free healing, and being able to put damage on the board while that occurs with Eos. The other comps have to always "manually" heal therefore sacrificing damage uptime GCDs. This comp has both healers with party buff utilities while the others will only have 1.

Optimally, Susano Ex is healed without a single tier-1 heal like Cure 1, Benefic, Physick. That fast run just had one Benefic II, and a few Adlos for busters. Textbook.

Take this into perspective, the log you just linked, Eos alone did 300 more hps than the N.Ast not even factoring in the SCHs own healing comparatively to the fastest clear recorded. That's like, I dunno what to say .-.
That's without a single wasted GCD too.

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Originally Posted by technole

AST/SCH will be the optimal comp, again. You just can't beat free healing, and being able to put damage on the board while that occurs with Eos. The other comps have to always "manually" heal therefore sacrificing damage uptime GCDs. This comp has both healers with party buff utilities while the others will only have 1.

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Yeah its hard to beat the versatility of an AST/SCH comp. WHM/NoctAST would be the safest for raw heals but I think it would require a coordinated WHM/DiAST pair to accomplish what AST/SCH can do but even then you would also rely on Divine Veil from PLD for required party wide shielding.

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Originally Posted by OcieKo

Sharing with SMN wont affect the issue, refer to Ruin/Boil Mastery traits that both effect Ruin 1.

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Well it will though because the Ruin Mastery works different for both jobs, one forces an update whilst the other has a 15% chance, but SE still incorporated something in to both of them. If Physick is given a trait, this would have to make it competitive with the rival base heal traits of WHM and AST. Not to mention any potential Physick trait will no doubt be called by others to extend it to SMN either in the form of better potency or transforming it to Sustain. Not that I'm against any SMN benefit, but Physick cannot be changed without effecting both jobs. Succor already benefits from Sacred Soil, there is no reason why Aldo cannot get a trait in some form, especially until SCH can use Aether heals at lv50/2.

On phone so can't edit.

Lookin at that Susano Log with WHM/NoctAST.

Because you can trade AspBenefic on the TB for Beneson and nothing else requires Shields the added regen on AST will provide higher DPS uptime for the WHM and provides additional weaving for the AST.

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Originally Posted by starLivitation

something i don't udnerstand.. AST shields are stronger than SCH shields, but AST isn't dependant on them, i mean they can switch these shields off if they prefer to heal. while sch, can only switch them off once every 20 seconds, why don't they just give SCH another healing mode just like ast? instead of emeregecy tactics, make sch go in full healing mode or shielding mode.

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Once in combat you're stuck in Nocturnal Sect (shields) or Diurnal Sect (regen) for the whole fight.

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Originally Posted by technole

AST/SCH will be the optimal comp, again. You just can't beat free healing, and being able to put damage on the board while that occurs with Eos. The other comps have to always "manually" heal therefore sacrificing damage uptime GCDs. This comp has both healers with party buff utilities while the others will only have 1.

Optimally, Susano Ex is healed without a single tier-1 heal like Cure 1, Benefic, Physick. That fast run just had one Benefic II, and a few Adlos for busters. Textbook.

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Anyone who didn't see that coming was either blind, or just didn't want to believe. Sadly, there are far too many people on here, and as long that stays that way, nothing will ever change for WHM. And, hey. SCH is even getting buffed soon. Yaaaay...
But I'm just a WHM, I got no right to complain for some.

I have been reading this thread trying to understand as much as everyone is talking, doing the math, and acting like the elites we all know everyone is in forums. (That was a joke. LoL)

However, I have a dumb question. Is SCH really getting a buff? And I mean this. Read it.

Emergency Tactics is now 20 seconds down from 30. Cool I use it all the time so, that is neat
Indomitability - No one knows
Excogitation is getting stronger... Cool, is it still pointless if it just sits there for 30 seconds and makes us waste Aetherflow?
Fey Union increase to 15 malms is nice... But fixes nothing. Will she stop casting and go back to normal if the tank has to run out of AoE?
The introduction of a trait for reducing the CD of Aetherflow. Don't we have that now and it sucks - so they are just changing this one I guess... Once again no one knows.

I don't understand that if our shields are weak, cost too much and slow how is any of this suppose to buff what makes us SCH? It seems to me that SE kind of overlooked what all of you have been typing for the past few weeks.

It looks like we are still going to be weak healers, burning through our Aetherflow just to keep the tank alive in a 4 man run. We do function better in 8 man as a group effort I have noticed, but maybe I am just mistaken and our "Shield days" are over and that is not what we were supposed to do. I don't think these "fixes" really fix much of what most players have said. Looks like a weird step.

But go ahead and do the math and all meters and check everything like a final exam. I just don't see it. Nym was beaten down by a dust ball because our shields can not really keep the dirt out of the soldiers eyes. (Another dumb joke. LoL) I still love my class, just not sure why everyone is freaking out over these changes... I think SE missed it, and there is no way they were reading what so many players talked about. They didn't even look at those spells. Weird isn't it? Dissipation anyone?

Are people actually arguing that the most efficient comp is going to be anything other than. AST/SCH?
AST heals as much as a WHM, and Scholar shields, while not broken like ASTs, are very good and is worth losing the bit of mitigation for even more utility.

The one single thing good about WHM/AST, is that it's better than WHM/SCH.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Are people actually arguing that the most efficient comp is going to be anything other than. AST/SCH?
AST heals as much as a WHM, and Scholar shields, while not broken like ASTs, are very good and is worth losing the bit of mitigation for even more utility.

The one single thing good about WHM/AST, is that it's better than WHM/SCH.

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I don't agree. The most efficient comp is and is going to be AST/AST, if you are talking about speed kills and highest raid dps output.
If you are talking about efficiency in terms of overcoming the learning curve, AST/WHM is the clear option since it has the best mitigation + healing output and can recover easier from mistakes.
SCH/AST and SCH/WHM is viable for the current content, but let's see what are the healing requirements in SAVAGE mode.

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Originally Posted by Xhareem

I don't agree. The most efficient comp is and is going to be AST/AST, if you are talking about speed kills and highest raid dps output.
If you are talking about efficiency in terms of overcoming the learning curve, AST/WHM is the clear option since it has the best mitigation + healing output and can recover easier from mistakes.
SCH/AST and SCH/WHM is viable for the current content, but let's see what are the healing requirements in SAVAGE mode.

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Then why was AST - AST not a thing the previous meta? Scholar has more DPS than AST by a fair margin, which is even more enables with free healing regens that cost no cooldowns to the DPS rotation, has Chain Strategem and a tankbuster move in combination with Union. All these seem to be improved in the next patch tomorrow. Ast Ast comp? Won't happen.

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Originally Posted by Xhareem

I don't agree. The most efficient comp is and is going to be AST/AST, if you are talking about speed kills and highest raid dps output.
If you are talking about efficiency in terms of overcoming the learning curve, AST/WHM is the clear option since it has the best mitigation + healing output and can recover easier from mistakes.
SCH/AST and SCH/WHM is viable for the current content, but let's see what are the healing requirements in SAVAGE mode.

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Currently all speed skill comp are AST/SCH.

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Originally Posted by Xhareem

I don't agree. The most efficient comp is and is going to be AST/AST, if you are talking about speed kills and highest raid dps output.
If you are talking about efficiency in terms of overcoming the learning curve, AST/WHM is the clear option since it has the best mitigation + healing output and can recover easier from mistakes.
SCH/AST and SCH/WHM is viable for the current content, but let's see what are the healing requirements in SAVAGE mode.

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Mind you, AST/SCH was world first Creator Savage. World third for Midas Savage. Well before the balance meta buff. Take that "viable" line outta here. All current speed kills are AST/SCH.

AST/AST. Now it's just worse. Where you don't even see each others cards, and have to be on-point with card management on voice to even be close to efficient. More than stars have to align right. But once again, this comp has to manually heal everything, and that costs GCDs. Which AST has the fewest one-button heals and oGCDs. AST pairing with SCH Indom and Eos free healing helps this a lot.

Lets not forget double jobs never has been considered in an optimal meta. Building LB even in early prog or even speed runs is a factor.

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Originally Posted by technole

Lets not forget double jobs never has been considered in an optimal meta. Building LB even in early prog or even speed runs is a factor.

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That's not really true either as early coil people ran double monk.

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Originally Posted by Kurando

Snip

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Its was mostly that they can make 2 different traits for the same skill on ACN. Itd be nice if they just made 2 Physick traits, give SCHs one in line with other healers, give SMN one that jacks up its effect on their pet, since summoner cant maintain their own pet and SE seems against letting healers track pet health easily.
Physick cant be changed but making a trait for just one job, or vastly different traits for each, is possible in the current system.

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Originally Posted by Xhareem

I don't agree.

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AST/AST won't be a thing. Optimal comp isn't simply fastest kill, nor is it an overabundance in healing power. It's about these two traits coming together and working smoothly with each other.

AST/AST is too clunky and clash together too often to be considered optimal, and WHM/AST is simply wasted utility for the sake of more healing, which will never be necessary (no they'll never make damage so powerful you'll need this comp, SE is very adamant about being able to use any comp to simply clear).

SCH/AST has more than enough healing power to make it though anything SE throws at us, they have the most synergy through utility, and with Eos, they offer the most DPS uptime for both healers. At this point, you're really only taking a WHM into savage just to prove a point that no one can tell you what to play, even though it's greatly hindering your party's potential.

Putting my comment down now - even if World First Omega (Savage) healing pair came out to be WHM/AST, many people will then counter it with "it's because the lower ilvls meant they needed more healing" and then the moaning and groaning will continue from there about how useless WHM is.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

At this point, you're really only taking a WHM into savage just to prove a point that no one can tell you what to play, even though it's greatly hindering your party's potential.

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I'll be bringing WHM to my Savage group this Tuesday because I enjoy the kit more than SCH or AST and I don't feel I'll be greatly hindering my party's potential. That might change once we know more details about the 4.05 changes, but for now, I'm bringing because I know I can give more to my group as WHM than as SCH since my partner is an AST because of my skill with the kit.

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Originally Posted by Justin_Uriel

I think SE missed it, and there is no way they were reading what so many players talked about. They didn't even look at those spells. Weird isn't it? Dissipation anyone?

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SE missed it so hard it hurts. So little of what I would have considered SCH consensus was even touched. I mean, these are buffs, but they missed the core of SCH power and what people like about the class from everything I read.

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Originally Posted by Starflake

That's not really true either as early coil people ran double monk.

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I think the debuff to building LB with double classes was added in Heavensward.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Putting my comment down now - even if World First Omega (Savage) healing pair came out to be WHM/AST, many people will then counter it with "it's because the lower ilvls meant they needed more healing" and then the moaning and groaning will continue from there about how useless WHM is.

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I really don't care who clears first. If world first really set thee store for what's ideal and what's not, we would have seen Monk running all over the place in Midas.

And it's actually true that the higher your Ilv, the less you need a AST/WHM comp. I mean, why would you need that safety net in a farm, or clearing when you're 20ilvs beyond the content?

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Originally Posted by Justin_Uriel

However, I have a dumb question. Is SCH really getting a buff? And I mean this.

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Considering we don't know anything about half of the changes to SCH, and you completely ignored Miasma II? Hmm.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

I really don't care who clears first. If world first really set thee store for what's ideal and what's not, we would have seen Monk running all over the place in Midas.

And it's actually true that the higher your Ilv, the less you need a AST/WHM comp. I mean, why would you need that safety net in a farm, or clearing when you're 20ilvs beyond the content?

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The primary argument that I see being slugged around by the WHM crowd is WHM is absolutely useless for everything because AST >>>>>>>>>>>>> WHM and the extra longevity and throughput WHM provides is pointless.

World First with WHM would prove that point otherwise. Even if it's not meta, there is a time and place to run WHM.

Asking WHM to be perfect in every circumstance is basically asking for WHM to get the same treatment as AST by the time 4.4 rolls around. I'm pretty certain no one wants that.

[edit] And to answer your second part - if we're about a point in a life cycle where everyone is 20 ilvls beyond the content, then there is no reason to not bring any healer a player would prefer. Also, if your group is already used to say farming it WHM/???, why take WHM away and possibly change your strategy and risk wipes after the fact. That seems pretty counter intuitive to me.

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Originally Posted by Rivxkobe

Considering we don't know anything about half of the changes to SCH, and you completely ignored Miasma II? Hmm.

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You are correct. And I love how you summed up the post with that.

We know nothing about half of the changes. However, I didn't ignore Miasma II sorry. I completely forgot about it. So that is it! The whole post summed up with that. Miasma II for the WIN! Healer fixed with DPS move. Hmmm.
(I still don't think they read the comments that so many players were leaving them. But, Miasma II! Am I right? LoL)

I'm fairy certain we'll have some more tweaks left and right that weren't mentioned. Just see what the letter says tomorrow. All else is useless speculation at this point and assumptions.

This is all much ado about nothing for several reasons:

1) Classes that are more difficult to play should be more desirable in long term high end content than classes that are easy. I am a WHM main and it in no way surprises or offends me that WHM is not ideally suited for long term savage viability.

2) SE destroyed any hope of healer or tank balance in their game the moment they brought third options in. I am not targeting this at AST or DRK specifically, either--I'm aiming it at the community and meta idealist mentality's effect on the playerbase. The moment there is an optimal or 'winning' combination, it only stands to reason that there must always be a losing or lesser counterpart.

3) Both of the above, and much of what we are discussing here, overlooks the practicality that we must also consider the individual players comfort level and availability of jobs within our fcs / statics / etc. All of our numbers and theories are based on optimal player performance when in truth that is something that can vary widely. If a shitty AST can outperform a skilled WHM (or vice versa) then there's a much larger problem.

4) And lastly, all of the optimal composition theory also assumes that we are more interested in class selection than with playing with friends or fc mates. I'm sure that will potentially be an issue in PF if the gap is too wide--i.e. the infamous AST locks in early HW--but for more established groups that care about people and not just paperwork, it doesn't seem like it should be quite so worth getting worked up about.

Personally, I am quite happy with how my WHM is doing and I am interested to see what changes tomorrow will bring. In fairness, I am currently not looking at doing savage and my opinions come from a far more social gaming background than most people here are. But this is an interesting discussion and having read everyone's thoughts, I figured I would share my own.

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Originally Posted by Justin_Uriel

You are correct. And I love how you summed up the post with that.

We know nothing about half of the changes. However, I didn't ignore Miasma II sorry. I completely forgot about it. So that is it! The whole post summed up with that. Miasma II for the WIN! Healer fixed with DPS move. Hmmm.
(I still don't think they read the comments that so many players were leaving them. But, Miasma II! Am I right? LoL)

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I never said they would be saved by a DPS move. I just mentioned that you asked if they were actually getting buffed using manipulative words, ignoring(forgetting doesn;t fly here because you made a post acting as if you knew what you were talking about), and acting as if not knowing = not a buff.

You questioned if SCH was actually being buffed because... reasons(?) and now that the changes are out? I was right to question your approach. SCH is OP now. But yeah, no, I was totally wrong to sum up your post the way I did.


You naysayers are getting on my nerves.

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Originally Posted by Katryn

This is all much ado about nothing for several reasons:

1) Classes that are more difficult to play should be more desirable in long term high end content than classes that are easy. I am a WHM main and it in no way surprises or offends me that WHM is not ideally suited for long term savage viability.

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Please don't take this personally, but this is a horrible, HORRIBLE design choice and completely against the philosophy that SE preaches, as evidenced by their response about MCH being too hard in the last live letter. They said something to the effect of "[we don't plan to make its DPS higher than Bard and/or nerfing its difficulty because] when you choose to play a job, you choose to immerse yourself in the experience that job offers".

If only the "most difficult" jobs were viable at Savage, we'd literally see only ONE or maybe TWO viable Savage comps because no sane person would take the "easier" jobs. Does this sound good to anybody?

Furthermore, difficulty (to a certain extent) is subjective. I've seen people have MASSIVE discrepancies as to which jobs in this game are the hardest because they demand different skills. If you want to see this concept pushed to the extreme, go look at any popular MOBA and try to get players to come to a consensus on which characters are the hardest to play. And when it comes to WHM, the difficulty at higher levels becomes maximizing damage GCDs by managing oGCDs, something that is far more important to WHM than it is to AST.

The only time you could justify tuning the output (on a dummy) of one job to be slightly higher than its counterparts is if it has mechanics that make it LITERALLY or NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE to perform optimally in a real world fight with any difficulty. For example, BLM is generally punished more by mechanics, and SMN and DRG have restrictive burst windows which almost never sync well with transitions. Skilled players are able to MINIMIZE, but very rarely ELIMINATE, these disadvantages.