Take it easy, Tanks.

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Originally Posted by Fernosaur

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I suppose it also depends on the class. PLD turning on Sword Oath? Uh, no. Just.... don't. Keep Shield Oath on, because Sword Oath is... not anything you'd want for its awesome deeps (Sword Oath is for Off-Tanking so you don't build too much threat, and for Solo because you build Oath much faster so you can keep spamming Sheltron and Clemency to make yourself invincible). Since I have no experience playing a Warrior, and since the person you are referring to is a Warrior, they were speaking from a Warrior's PoV.

A PLD's Shield Oath gives far more defensive power than a Warrior's tank stance, and a Warrior's DPS stance increases DPS by more than a PLD's Sword Oath from my understanding (I could be wrong about this, but eh).

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Originally Posted by Maeka

A PLD's Shield Oath gives far more defensive power than a Warrior's tank stance, and a Warrior's DPS stance increases DPS by more than a PLD's Sword Oath from my understanding (I could be wrong about this, but eh).

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IIRC Defiance increases maximum HP and incoming healing. Defensively it's not nearly as good as Shield Oath, although extra HP isn't bad.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

IIRC Defiance increases maximum HP and incoming healing. Defensively it's not nearly as good as Shield Oath, although extra HP isn't bad.

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In some ways it's as good/better than Shield Oath, in others it's lacking. A WAR Defiance with rotating CDs will not only have increased maximum HP and spell healing, but a WAR will literally never not have some kind of defensive buff in Defiance, ever, whether it's IB or anyone of their massive cool down suite, which doesn't even touch on their self healing(Chaining IB and their cooldowns gives them effectively better defense than anything a PLD could achieve for sustained mitigation)). ShO only really beats out Def when played with a SCH since most of their heals aren't spells, but abilities. Conversely, in certain situations SwO is a greater dps boost then Deliv, but they both have strengths and weaknesses. (SwO around 15% increased DPS through AAs alone before factoring in the lack of damage penalty, while Deliv is the clear winner in AoE damage.

I might enjoy tanking a bit, so I kiiinda thoroughly studied both jobs.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

In some ways it's as good/better than Shield Oath, in others it's lacking. A WAR Defiance with rotating CDs will not only have increased maximum HP and spell healing, but a WAR will literally never not have some kind of defensive buff in Defiance, ever, whether it's IB or anyone of their massive cool down suite, which doesn't even touch on their self healing(Chaining IB and their cooldowns gives them effectively better defense than anything a PLD could achieve for sustained mitigation)).

I might enjoy tanking a bit, so I kiiinda thoroughly studied both jobs.

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You don't know what literally or ever mean. IB has less than 50% uptime, not to mention it is not used in AE pulls. Meanwhile paladins get their 4% block bonus mitigation and 5% flash mitigation. The stances themselves are basically identical though.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Assuming I ever have the wrath to use it. I largely burn it ASAP on SC on big pulls, especially when zerked.

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So you time turning on defiance to land right as the healer gets his heal off? Amazing skills that! What if the healer casts regen or uses an instant heal. Perhaps you time the stance switches between regen ticks and have professor x mind reading skills too.

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Originally Posted by DacienSanderon

So you time turning on defiance to land right as the healer gets his heal off? Amazing skills that! What if the healer casts regen or uses an instant heal. Perhaps you time the stance switches between regen ticks and have professor x mind reading skills too.

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Couldn't say, personally. Steel Cyclone is the strongest AoE damage WAR has, however, so I have no problems burning it for damage if the healer is half decent. Conversely, if the healer is lacking, I'll find myself prioritizing it's use for sustain rather than DPS. As for Regen? So long as it lands on me before I swap onto Deliv, I'll have the boosted ticks on me for as long as it lasts. Incidentally, Defiance doesn't do anything for non Aspect Benefic instant heals, as Defiance doesn't buff healing abilities, just spells. Logically speaking, this means as far as Tetra/Lustrate/ED are concerned, I might as well be in Deliverance for all the good they'll do me.

The joys of having an oGCD stance swap~

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Originally Posted by DacienSanderon

Snip.

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Regarding CD suites, WAR can chain mitigation back to back to back for a full 91-119 seconds on an AoE pull at minimum, with three infuriates, 3 1,200 potency heals, 1 RI+Aw combo, 1 conv+ToB, 1 Ven, 2 Rampart, 1 Holmgang, and 4 IBs. Of course, this is ridiculously inefficient DPS wise because SC is a free 200 potency AoE around the WAR that ignores the defiance penalty with no drop off in enmity generated. A WAR in DPS stance can chain together back to back CDs for roughly the same time as PLD at 55 seconds, but unlike PLD WAR has a semi spammable 300 potency AoE in Decimate which they can pull off three times back to back to back. Add Berserk, that hits even harder at nearly 400 potency with a +10% chance to crits on every mob pulled.

I'm generally in the middle here, I like a medium pull (especially on WHM) but when they get past 2 packs many DF tanks need a pretty constant heal spam to not be floortanking in seconds.

That being said I just did Xephatol as AST with a BRD, MCH and the best PLD I have ever seen. He did every pull as large as possible amd even with that I was spamming Gravity and melting everything like I was a DPS. My Aspected Benefic shields were lasting crazy lengths of time. It got to a point that he would just throw a Clemency on himself every once in a while and I just killed things.

On bosses he was the perfect Sword Oath PLD, I am on PS4 so I can't run a parser but from what I could tell he was doing good damage.

Just so stress free, so unlike what I expected when he first pulled all the way up the hill

Point is? Some tanks can handle it. Sadly more tanks just think they can handle it.

There's this ridiculous idea that it's faster to do big pulls with every party composition.

But I find it hard to believe that a party with two dps that come with low aoe capabilities clears faster with big pulls but no healer dps, than small pulls with healer dps.
I often find myself in a situation where I can't dps because I have to spamheal, and the pull actually takes forever to clear, sometimes to the point where I almost run out of MP just from spamming heals.

On the other hand, smaller pulls allow me to keep the tank up with HoTs and ogcds and I get to spam my broken aoe spell and everything just melts.

Small pulls are okay. I actually enjoy them far more. Just spamming Benefic II just to keep the tank alive is actually not fun for me. I'd like to use all my abilities.
It's also great if I get some time to manage my cards so I have at least one Balance combo for the boss.

Tanks really need to learn their and the party's limits.
And realize that it's okay to pull smaller packs sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Trespar

There's this ridiculous idea that it's faster to do big pulls with every party composition.

But I find it hard to believe that a party with two dps that come with low aoe capabilities clears faster with big pulls but no healer dps, than small pulls with healer dps.
I often find myself in a situation where I can't dps because I have to spamheal, and the pull actually takes forever to clear, sometimes to the point where I almost run out of MP just from spamming heals.

On the other hand, smaller pulls allow me to keep the tank up with HoTs and ogcds and I get to spam my broken aoe spell and everything just melts.

Small pulls are okay. I actually enjoy them far more. Just spamming Benefic II just to keep the tank alive is actually not fun for me. I'd like to use all my abilities.
It's also great if I get some time to manage my cards so I have at least one Balance combo for the boss.

Tanks really need to learn their and the party's limits.
And realize that it's okay to pull smaller packs sometimes.

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I agree with this 100%, I just personally feel like on a 2 pack pull I can still DPS (in general, obviously not always the case based on the mobs/my level) and it goes faster than single pulls. Again, generalization.

I also think party composition should play a huge role here. When you have double monk maybe don't run from boss to boss.

Sadly these things are too nuanced for a lot of DF tanks apparently.

Also I didn't want to bring up the ability to DPS more because with the people who I've seen in this thread I don't want it to get derailed into another healer DPS debate.

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Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

And to make matters worse, thanks to sprint not burning all your TP anymore, tanks now think it's somehow okay to sprint away from the healer...

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As a Scholar, I've been really struggling not during big pulls, but whenever the tank decides it's a good idea to use the sprint button. Sure, I always use my sprint button to chase after them when they decide to do that, but for some reason my fairy is literally unable to keep up with me sprinting.

After surviving a large pull with EOS lagging far behind, I sometimes get tanks that think it's a good idea to use the sprint button after every fight. Usually the tank starts running to the next group before all the mobs are fully dead. I just blew all my cool-downs for that mega pull and I literally only needed like 5-6 more seconds for my Aetherflow stacks to be back up before the next large pull. It's annoying having tanks die because your cooldowns are literally seconds from refreshing.

Slightly Off-Topic, but not quite off-topic, someone in the thread has this as their signature:

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Originally Posted by Tridus

Players: "OMG stupid healers, why aren't you DPSing more? *kick*"
Also Players: "OMG stupid healers, why are you DPSing so much? *kick*"
Still Players: "How come more people aren't playing healers?"

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I would also like to add to this:

Players: "OMG, stupid tanks, why aren't you pulling multiples!? *kick*"
Also Players: "OMG, stupid tanks, why aren't you pulling more!? *kick*"
Still Players: "How come more people aren't playing tanks?"

1. I pull as little as possible to see if the healer becomes compelled to ask to pull bigger.

2. If they ask nice, I'll comply. If they are dicks about it, I continue with my current pace.

If a DPS opens their mouths, they don't exist.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Slightly Off-Topic, but not quite off-topic, someone in the thread has this as their signature:



I would also like to add to this:

Players: "OMG, stupid tanks, why aren't you pulling multiples!? *kick*"
Also Players: "OMG, stupid tanks, why aren't you pulling more!? *kick*"
Still Players: "How come more people aren't playing tanks?"

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That about sums up every tank/healer thread. They aren't fun because of the job design. It's the community that is the root of this bullshit.

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Originally Posted by Ftail

As a Scholar, I've been really struggling not during big pulls, but whenever the tank decides it's a good idea to use the sprint button. Sure, I always use my sprint button to chase after them when they decide to do that, but for some reason my fairy is literally unable to keep up with me sprinting.

After surviving a large pull with EOS lagging far behind, I sometimes get tanks that think it's a good idea to use the sprint button after every fight. Usually the tank starts running to the next group before all the mobs are fully dead. I just blew all my cool-downs for that mega pull and I literally only needed like 5-6 more seconds for my Aetherflow stacks to be back up before the next large pull. It's annoying having tanks die because your cooldowns are literally seconds from refreshing.

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In this scenario, let them fucking die to teach them a lesson. You adapting only sends them the message that their behavior is okay.

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Originally Posted by Jas710

That about sums up every tank/healer thread. They aren't fun because of the job design. It's the community that is the root of this bullshit.

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They are plenty fun because of job design.

They are not, however, fun because of the playerbase whining at us. I enjoy tanking. I enjoy my job's abilities and buttons. I enjoy the role itself and what it entails. I don't, however, enjoy people complaining when my pacing isn't to their liking.

I thoroughly enjoy myself when my group lets me do what I wanna do.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

They are plenty fun because of job design.

They are not, however, fun because of the playerbase whining at us. I enjoy tanking. I enjoy my job's abilities and buttons. I enjoy the role itself and what it entails. I don't, however, enjoy people complaining when my pacing isn't to their liking.

I thoroughly enjoy myself when my group lets me do what I wanna do.

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I think you might have misunderstood my phrasing. I am in complete agreement with you.

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Originally Posted by Jas710

That about sums up every tank/healer thread. They aren't fun because of the job design. It's the community that is the root of this bullshit.

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I completely agree with this. I always have fun while I am tanking but it just takes one person to whine and complain about if I pull to much or pull to little even if it is just the first pull and I am trying to get a feel for the healer and dps. Then come to the forums and complain about it. Even when I am doing my job right by holding threat and not taking to much damage I still get people complaining I am not in my tank stance.

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Originally Posted by Jas710

I think you might have misunderstood my phrasing. I am in complete agreement with you.

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OH! You said "They aren't fun because of the job design"... I think you meant "They aren't fun, not because of the job design, but..."

*grins* I see what happened now.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

A PLD's Shield Oath gives far more defensive power than a Warrior's tank stance, and a Warrior's DPS stance increases DPS by more than a PLD's Sword Oath from my understanding (I could be wrong about this, but eh).

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If you're only gonna be tanking three mobs you might as well turn any DPS stance, no matter the job. Sword Oath by itself isn't great bc of the awesome deeps, but because it means not being in Shield Oath and taking a damage penalty.

Believe me, a three mob pack doesn't need Shield Oath if you know what you're doing, with the exception of levelling dungeons like Bardam's when you don't have stat-capped gear due to IL and level sync and things will hit you super hard. I'm obviously not talking for undergeared tanks going into levelling dungeons and not having tank stance on.


Also, WAR's Defiance works mathematically in an identical manner to Shield Oath. They don't have 20% mitigation, but the 25% extra effective HP is basically the same thing. WAR is slightly harder to heal in Defiance than PLD or DRK in ShO and Grit, but it's by a minimal margin.

Remember that damage reduction works in percents in this game. A PLD in Shield Oath will numerically take less damage than a (topped off) WAR in Defiance, but their HP bars will lose the same amount of % from the same hit. In the end, the % of the tank's HP bar is all that matters.

Similarly, Deliverance and Sword Oath both natively grant more or less the same damage bonus, the main difference is in the fact that Deliverance unlocks more powerful abilities in terms of potency, such as Fell Cleave and Decimate. Damage in Sword Oath is still 15% stronger than in Shield Oath, however, and this isn't factoring the added auto-attack damage.

Also? Sword Oath is as much for main tanking as it is for off-tanking. Of course, provided you know what you're doing to mitigate incoming damage.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Slightly Off-Topic, but not quite off-topic, someone in the thread has this as their signature:



I would also like to add to this:

Players: "OMG, stupid tanks, why aren't you pulling multiples!? *kick*"
Also Players: "OMG, stupid tanks, why aren't you pulling more!? *kick*"
Still Players: "How come more people aren't playing tanks?"

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As the one who got quoted in that... yup. It annoys me a lot as a healer, but the only party I've ever been kicked from? Tanking Brayflox on-level when levelling my Paladin. Did a double pull, and got squashed. So did single pulls. Halfway through, got kicked without a word. Considering how long it takes to find another tank when you're that far into a dungeon, I'm really not sure how they thought that was better than simply doing the pull size that wasn't resulting in wipes.Running back is NOT faster than single pulling, especially since it's so easy for healers to contribute a lot of DPS to single pulls (with the relatively low healing requirements).

I've seen a lot of nice folks in the community of this game, but some of the decision making just makes no sense at all.

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Originally Posted by Jas710

1. I pull as little as possible to see if the healer becomes compelled to ask to pull bigger.

2. If they ask nice, I'll comply. If they are dicks about it, I continue with my current pace.

If a DPS opens their mouths, they don't exist.

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Amusingly, I'd never say anything in that case. You're comfortable single pulling? Cool. It pretty much guarantees a smooth run and I'm going to blast the hell out of stuff.

It's when people big pull while in Shire gear in Doma Castle and I can't do anything except use every GCD on Cure 2 without them dying that I get frustrated.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

They are not, however, fun because of the playerbase whining at us. I enjoy tanking. I enjoy my job's abilities and buttons. I enjoy the role itself and what it entails. I don't, however, enjoy people complaining when my pacing isn't to their liking.

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Originally Posted by Kyrph

I always have fun while I am tanking but it just takes one person to whine and complain about if I pull to much or pull to little even if it is just the first pull and I am trying to get a feel for the healer and dps. Then come to the forums and complain about it. Even when I am doing my job right by holding threat and not taking to much damage I still get people complaining I am not in my tank stance.

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This is why I don't say a thing outside of actual conversation or telling new people boss mechanics when I'm in a group while I'm playing a DD job. I've healed, I've tanked(in WoW at least, trying to level a tank in this, though I'm admittedly a little bit.....let's say worried about getting the "Going to slow!" thing as a tank while I'm learning how to do the role in this), and I know it's rough.

There's no reason to hassle the people that are willing to do the jobs most of the people playing an MMO don't want to do, if you were to ask me. As long as we aren't wiping over and over, you do you, it doesn't bother me. <3 to the healers and the tanks.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

As the one who got quoted in that... yup. It annoys me a lot as a healer, but the only party I've ever been kicked from? Tanking Brayflox on-level when levelling my Paladin. Did a double pull, and got squashed. So did single pulls. Halfway through, got kicked without a word. Considering how long it takes to find another tank when you're that far into a dungeon, I'm really not sure how they thought that was better than simply doing the pull size that wasn't resulting in wipes.Running back is NOT faster than single pulling, especially since it's so easy for healers to contribute a lot of DPS to single pulls (with the relatively low healing requirements).

I've seen a lot of nice folks in the community of this game, but some of the decision making just makes no sense at all.

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It probably took them only a single minute to find another tank, if you are already inside the dungeon you get priority above other people for getting party members.

Edit: SE takes kick abuse seriously, did you remember to report them?

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Originally Posted by Tridus

Amusingly, I'd never say anything in that case. You're comfortable single pulling? Cool. It pretty much guarantees a smooth run and I'm going to blast the hell out of stuff.

It's when people big pull while in Shire gear in Doma Castle and I can't do anything except use every GCD on Cure 2 without them dying that I get frustrated.

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You seem to always have such quotable, likable posts. This is (again) very much the exact way I feel, I'm almost compelled to change my signature...

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Originally Posted by Tridus

Amusingly, I'd never say anything in that case. You're comfortable single pulling? Cool. It pretty much guarantees a smooth run and I'm going to blast the hell out of stuff.

It's when people big pull while in Shire gear in Doma Castle and I can't do anything except use every GCD on Cure 2 without them dying that I get frustrated.

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This is exactly how I feel too. Single pulls, I can throw lots of DPS spells, and my play experience is more enjoyable.

However, I have had *good* tanks multipulling.. still mildly stressful but nowhere near as bad as undergeared people doing it. I met this 49k Paladin today... Kugane Castle. He multi-pulled every multi-pull possible in the zone, but he used his cooldowns, and all that jazz. It was somewhat hectic, but comfortable still. We also had a pair of rather good DPS who were actually capable of killing the junk in some reasonable time-frame. I was able to squeek out a few Aero 3s, even a Stone IV now and then, though admittedly I was more focused on healing the tank, almost lost him once but nobody died. It was a good run.

But for every run like that, there's 10 where I am doing nothing but Cure2 and/or Tetra/Assize/Lucid the whole dungeon and those are just not fun for the healer. Yeah, sure the tank and DPS are having a ball blowing stuff up but the healer? It isn't fun whatsoever. I have more than 4 buttons. I would appreciate the chance to use them, kthx.

One problem right now is that SE has killed off a lot of the aoe damage while also making tanks squishier. This makes it a lot harder to heal the huge pulls especially if you're new to it. I'm a 70 WHM (just hit 70 today) and I let people know at the start of each dungeon that I'm not great at speed runs (unless the tank is a pld who knows their job). Some tanks listen, other run off pull 3 packs of mobs and usually die. Most will adjust after that and the run goes smoothly. The best you can do is speak up at the start of the run and then let it go how it goes.

Had some more time mull this over and im generally of the opinion that Tanks should at least communicate their intention, but I'm not really getting behind this whole bad tanks not mitigating enough etc...

Every healer has access to what I call predictive healing spells and some kind of regen (healbot in SCH case) Example of predictive healing spell:

AST - Earthly star

I honestly don't see how we healers can't keep a bad tank alive if we plan ahead using such abilities. A largesse regen when the tank has finished the pull will keep them reasonably healthy for the majority of it's duration and using one of the predictive healing spells after you apply said regen will normally involve the spell being ready to do it's thing as the regen is finishing it's countdown. If that is not enough then you always have your oGCD heal to fall back on. I've done plenty of runs myself where I've only ever used regens and my oGCD heal to get us through it.

Continued in next post...

We also have mitigation to offer the tanks and I think a lot of healers overlook this when it comes to pulling trash mobs. It seems as though there is some kind of ingrained behavior that can be observed with middle of the pack healers where they never use their mitigation during mob pulls. I can only imagine that they equate a long cooldown with the ability being "precious" and are reluctant to use it outside of anything that is not a boss fight. However if you use these abilities at the start of a pull they're usually ready by the time you get to the next set of mobs or boss.

You have a versatile and powerful kit as a healer, you need to use all of it in a smart way instead of spamming a single spell because you found yourself in a situation you failed to prepare for. You should always be prepared and have a plan of how to keep someone alive for situations you have encountered before.

example of me finding myself in a situation where tank immediately pulls everything at the start of a run when playing AST:

Largesse > regen > Earthly star on tank > Collective unconscious on tank > observe tank health for next 15 seconds > respond accordingly with oGCD heal or using stellar detonation

That's not difficult to do and it won't drain your mana at all. because you've provided a secondary regen, damage mitigation and a 720 potency heal for absolutely 0 mana cost... Wow! At this point enough trash should be dead to where your tank is not being bombarded with damage. All 3 healers have their own version of the above, so I don't see why bad Tanks is a good excuse.

The problem is that there's no set pace to go at. If I pull big a healer at some point is going to get mad, if I pull small a healer is going to at some point get mad, if I pull just right the healer might just get mad anyway because everyone always thinks they can do someone's job better than them, regardless of whether or not it's true. Without any input, I will continue to pull at the pace that has worked for me in countless other runs of the dungeon.

I'm not here to get in a tug-of-war with anyone, I just want to get through the dungeon as smoothly as possible. If the tank is pulling too big: tell them. If they're pulling too small: tell them. Otherwise, we'll continue to do as we've done. Now, who you should REALLY be mad at are the DPS who think they run the show and try to pull more mobs.

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Originally Posted by Fealow

Had some more time mull this over and im generally of the opinion that Tanks should at least communicate their intention, but I'm not really getting behind this whole bad tanks not mitigating enough etc...

Every healer has access to what I call predictive healing spells and some kind of regen (healbot in SCH case) Example of predictive healing spell:

AST - Earthly star

I honestly don't see how we healers can't keep a bad tank alive if we plan ahead using such abilities. A largesse regen when the tank has finished the pull will keep them reasonably healthy for the majority of it's duration and using one of the predictive healing spells after you apply said regen will normally involve the spell being ready to do it's thing as the regen is finishing it's countdown. If that is not enough then you always have your oGCD heal to fall back on. I've done plenty of runs myself where I've only ever used regens and my oGCD heal to get us through it.

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Here's a trick for you - the post length limit only applies to original posts. You can edit a post to make it as long as you want. :)


Anyway... Last night I had a tank in Sohm Al who sprinted away when I started casting Protect and grabbed 3 packs of stuff on the way. By time I caught him (because my sprint can't close the gap with him also sprinting), he was at 10% health. Regen isn't gonna get it done at that point. Hell, Cure 2 isn't gonna get it done at that point, since he'll be long dead by time it goes off. So hey, Benediction it is! Course, then the DPS started taking damage (because of all the poison flying around when you combine those packs), and if I stop tank healing long enough to help the DPS, the tank dies. That's exactly what happened.


There's no preparing for that, except maybe a macro on Protect saying "I'm casting Protect, don't run away."

I also think you grossly underestimate the variance in squishiness between tanks. I've gotten the same class in the same dungeon and it's night and day. One guy can be healed by Regen with an occasional other spell, and the other one requires my full attention. I've never played a MMO with wider variances in just how difficult tanks are to keep alive. Like, this:

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Largesse > regen > Earthly star on tank > Collective unconscious on tank > observe tank health for next 15 seconds > respond accordingly with oGCD heal or using stellar detonation

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Lovely advice, when you don't get some guy who thinks Sword Oath is just as good for tanking 9 things as Shield Oath. When you get that guy, you've got about 4 seconds before you're the new tank. Those are the ones that bug me. If I can't reapply Regen because the tank is taking so much damage that the GCD not providing immediate healing is going to result in death, the tank pulling too much stuff for their gear/skill. That's just a raw "HPS keep up with incoming DPS" race. I mean, I've done plenty of dungeons where I only needed Regen and oGCD stuff too. Those ones are AWESOME. It's the ones where that results in a swift and terrible death that we're talking about.

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Originally Posted by Ftail

It probably took them only a single minute to find another tank, if you are already inside the dungeon you get priority above other people for getting party members.

Edit: SE takes kick abuse seriously, did you remember to report them?

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That hasn't been my experience, but it has been quite a while since I kicked anyone except for disconnects (which was pretty common when the servers were creaky and not since).

I didn't report them. I was newbie tanking at the time and it was pretty frustrating. By time I thought of it, that had passed and it wasn't worth the effort. Haven't had a problem since, so I think it was just an isolated thing.

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Originally Posted by Capn_Goggles

The problem is that there's no set pace to go at. If I pull big a healer at some point is going to get mad, if I pull small a healer is going to at some point get mad, if I pull just right the healer might just get mad anyway because everyone always thinks they can do someone's job better than them, regardless of whether or not it's true. Without any input, I will continue to pull at the pace that has worked for me in countless other runs of the dungeon.

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I definitely appreciate that tanks are in a no-win situation on this. If you do it well, that's just what people expect. Judge it wrong and people flip out. It's unfortunate. That's why I never complain about smaller pulls. If that is what the tank is comfortable with, cool. We'll know if you do pulls that are too big, since we'll likely wipe at some point. Beyond that, I try to just let you do your job. :)

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I'm not here to get in a tug-of-war with anyone, I just want to get through the dungeon as smoothly as possible. If the tank is pulling too big: tell them. If they're pulling too small: tell them. Otherwise, we'll continue to do as we've done. Now, who you should REALLY be mad at are the DPS who think they run the show and try to pull more mobs.

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Agreed. Those people should go tank themselves if they want to set the pace. I've been known to let them die when I can do it without wiping the group <_<

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Originally Posted by Tridus

Lovely advice, when you don't get some guy who thinks Sword Oath is just as good for tanking 9 things as Shield Oath. When you get that guy, you've got about 4 seconds before you're the new tank.

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Remember the old days when you'd go into, say, <Lv30 dungeons like Copperbell, or even Toto-Rak and if you had a horrible tank that refused to use Flash, you'd tank stuff yourself and just not care, as you could tank better than the actual tank could anyways? lol

A part of me misses those days. I used to tank Graffias (last boss of Toto-Rak) and all of his adds and walk away with 3/3 commendations more often than a WHM should lol.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

You seem to always have such quotable, likable posts. This is (again) very much the exact way I feel, I'm almost compelled to change my signature...

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:D <3 Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Remember the old days when you'd go into, say, <Lv30 dungeons like Copperbell, or even Toto-Rak and if you had a horrible tank that refused to use Flash, you'd tank stuff yourself and just not care, as you could tank better than the actual tank could anyways? lol

A part of me misses those days. I used to tank Graffias (last boss of Toto-Rak) and all of his adds and walk away with 3/3 commendations more often than a WHM should lol.

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Back when Medica was known as "Taunt for Healers"? Good times. :D

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Originally Posted by Tridus

There's no preparing for that, except maybe a macro on Protect saying "I'm casting Protect, don't run away."

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This is why my protect macro says exactly that.

As someone who enjoys playing both tank and healer (PLD and SCH actually) I find the best thing a tank can do is look at his DPS. If he has two dps who do very little AOE damage, the tank shouldn't be pulling large groups as this will prevent the healer from dealing damage and the dps are still gonna burn everything down one enemy at a time.

If there are DPS who can deal massive aoe DPS (smn, rdm, brd, etc) the tank needs to pull large groups and use his mitigation tool to the best of their abilities.

When I'm pulling large groups as a PLD, not only am I using my CDs, I'm throwing Clemency on myself because I find that to be a very good part of my mitigation kit. There's also knowing when to NOT pull more, for instance the Halgai in Bardam's Mettle (that first pull) and the pull with the eagle because that eagle, along with the Dharas are going to EAT that tank alive, I don't care how good they think they are, unless they have Hallowed/Holmgang/Living Dead ready. Scratch Holmgang, that is a momentary death prevention.

As far as the healer side, know your CDs and learn to use them. The tank does not owe you the easiest dungeon possible, so be ready to use Largesse and use it often. You should familiarize yourself with any other healing CDs your particular job may have, like Lightspeed for AST and Fey Illumination for SCH. Your actual off global cooldown heal CDs should also be used extensively.

Know your kit, do the best you can in any situation.

Your future tanks are most likely not reading this and even if they are they will not take heed. You need to communicate with them in Duty. It's not hard to ask for smaller pulls if you're not comfortable. Also, if you've only wiped twice it sounds like you're able to keep up with the mass pulls, so what is the problem? It won't be long until you only enjoy healing big pulls.

XD sinking faster than Katy Perry's career....

Last night I had this very problem with my tank in a duty. I've only been playing AST for the last few weeks but I've healed as a WHM before and I've been able to deal with large pulls in the past. But he sprinted out and gathered every group prior to the first boss; It was a nightmare, and we wiped.

Runs like that make the game so stressful since healers often get blamed for wipes. I am already super high strung so experiences like last night make me question my job choice.

But I enjoy healing more than I dread tanks like that. And the reality is that the majority of tanks do a perfectly good job of managing aggro and choosing pull sizes.

So, to the tanks out there that know how to do their job, I thank you and my therapist thanks you too. ;)