Is anyone else dying to get to Garlemald?

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Not entirely unjustified, either - but the 'savages' term likely stems from bitterness at how poorly Garleans were treated before Garlemald came to be a successful Empire.

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Eorzeans had very little to do with that. Garlemald's early woes came from their neighbours in Ilsabard. Eorzea is in Aldenard. (Well, technically Aldenard is in Eorzea, since Eorzea includes Vylbrand.) If your meaning is that Garleans call everyone "savages" because of their treatment from one region, thus making them lash out indiscriminately even against those who had nothing to do with the earlier sins... that doesn't paint the Garleans in any sort of sympathetic light either.

It's much more easily explained as old-fashioned prejudice, with nothing more than a belief in one's own cultural or racial superiority over everyone else's. It's pretty much the same as how many Sharlayans consider Eorzeans to be "barbarians". (To be fair, Eorzea has form in this, thanks to Belah'dia's civil war involving Sharlayan aetherytes.)

Speaking of, I'm actually really interested in what garlemalds neighbors were like before they got annexed, didn't the lorebook state ilsabard as a harsh continent filled with various warlords and such before the garleans dominated the others?

@ Cilia: Thanks for the post you can put my thoughts in way better words. I am still seeing lots of similarities, especially in 4.0 but it seems to make people uncomfortable so I will stop with that. But looking at the stuff Garlemald itself did in 4.0 I just cant see any good thing at all. Having technology and stuff like that is something I would see more neutral. (Technology is not good or bad itself, it depends completely on the situation its used) It might be good for Garlemald itself but it brings a lot of terror to Eorzea..if they went and traded with Eorzea then I would see it more positive.

Every time someone mentions how bad Garlemald had it in the past..I will always just shake my head a bit (nothing personal). Someone already pointed out that they survived quite a bit without technology so they were not near extinction. Also as we know right now, Eorzea had nothing to do with this. Garlemald came from a whole other continent..

Its just that Garleans see themselves as a better race..the term savages shows this quite well. Its a term that makes the other lower than them. They use them for the beast tribes but also for the people of Eorzea. Regula still calling us that just shows that we are still bellow him. I wished they showed more scenes about him because his sacrifice really came out of nowhere. Also I am quite sure if the problem of Zurvan would have been solved if he killed us all, he would have done that. He is pragmatic in his way but being that does not necessary means something good.

In the end it seems that everyone is a bit biased in this discussion. But I still find it curious that the only good deeds from Garlemald come from soldiers. So I hope that in the future we will see more good things from the common people and maybe somewhere we see the government change (like with Isghard) and become a better government that will not try to mass murder whole races to solve the problem but try it differently. So much good would come out of Eorzea and Garlemald exchanging their knowledge in a nice matter..nothing good will come out of world conquering.

@Kallera: I am quite sure that there are nasty beast man out there..exactly that there are nasty Lalas, Au Ra and other people out there. But Garlemald does not care for that. They want to kill all beast man, no matter how good or bad they are.

People underestimate how harsh this world would be. Yes the garleans have little right to do what they do from a moral ground, but if we're talking purely on logic then yes they actually do because say they were living on the same continent as the xeala tribes, ala mhigo or even Doma. If they encountered the garleans before they gained any advantage they would probably have taken advantage of the situation and conquered them instead. The only reason they have run afoul with the rest of the world is because they ultimately won and were the ones who got there first. These political scenarios often reflect the real world and this is how it always has been, one nation will take advantage of another if the opportunity arises and that includes the modern era.

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Originally Posted by VargasVermillion

Speaking of, I'm actually really interested in what garlemalds neighbors were like before they got annexed, didn't the lorebook state ilsabard as a harsh continent filled with various warlords and such before the garleans dominated the others?

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Northern Ilsabard is a harsh place filled with warlords and raider bands. The Garleans originally came from southern Ilsabard, which is temperate and apparently not a bad place to live. Still, seeing as they got driven to northern Ilsabard in the first place, things were obviously not perfect.

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Originally Posted by VargasVermillion

Yes the garleans have little right to do what they do from a moral ground, but if we're talking purely on logic then yes they actually do because say they were living on the same continent as the xeala tribes, ala mhigo or even Doma. If they encountered the garleans before they gained any advantage they would probably have taken advantage of the situation and conquered them instead.

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But they're not on the same continent. Ala Mhigo is on Aldenard, and Doma and the Xaela tribes are on Othard. Asking about the hypothetical where all of these are on the same continent is irrelevant, because they're not, and Garlemald conquered them anyway.

The only other known nation in Hydaelyn's history which spanned multiple continents were the Allagans, who were generally not moral paragons either. Even the War of the Magi restricted itself to Eorzea.

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Originally Posted by VargasVermillion

...because say they were living on the same continent as the xeala tribes, ala mhigo or even Doma. If they encountered the garleans before they gained any advantage they would probably have taken advantage of the situation and conquered them instead

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The Garleans are coming from a whole different continent. They had nothing to do with Doma, Ala Mhigo or other countries we know of. So I am not sure where the information is coming from, that they are from the same place? Also in modern era it would be bad if someone tries to conquer a free state. That surely would create another war. (And war is always bad)

War is rarely black or white. There's usually a reason for it - be it politically charged, vengeance or the acquisition of resources and territory. Or a misguided attempt to bring 'freedom' and 'justice' to foreign nations. In some cases it's merely presented as righteous whilst a large driving point in actuality is profit.

That doesn't mean that war is the ideal solution, mind you - but it's an unfortunate part of both life and history. By our very nature humans can be kind and compassionate but they can also be cruel and selfish. We'll never see a united world with no conflict unless we literally begin wiping people's minds clean and adjusting their viewpoint to fit the supposed 'correct' approach to life. Which brings all manner of dubious implications in itself, of course.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

The Garleans are coming from a whole different continent. They had nothing to do with Doma, Ala Mhigo or other countries we know of. So I am not sure where the information is coming from, that they are from the same place? Also in modern era it would be bad if someone tries to conquer a free state. That surely would create another war. (And war is always bad)

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My point is that many of our allies would of done the same thing if the opportunity came. If a nation encounters a weaker nation they'll do what they can do get as much from that as possible. Hydaelyn isn't a place where you can apply a modern day moral compass.

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Originally Posted by VargasVermillion

My point is that many of our allies would of done the same thing if the opportunity came. If a nation encounters a weaker nation they'll do what they can do get as much from that as possible. Hydaelyn isn't a place where you can apply a modern day moral compass.

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By that logic Eorzea should have been unified under a single banner long ago.

The game also runs on a largely modern sense of morality, far as I can tell.

Certainly, the sheer potential of getting magitek car as a mount is far too good to pass by.

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Originally Posted by Matriqona

Certainly, the sheer potential of getting magitek car as a mount is far too good to pass by.

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I expect Garlemald to be very much like modern day Japan right now or a combination of FFXV and FFXIII world due to the level of technology.

A part of me hope they have FFXIV world version of mangas in Garlemald, for whatever lore reason it got invented, and have Alisaie accidently discover Yoai Mangas for comedy sake.

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Originally Posted by Matriqona

Certainly, the sheer potential of getting magitek car as a mount is far too good to pass by.

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I doubt this will happen for the same reason cloud's bike wasn't added, they were going to add it but it looked too awkward with the mount speed the game has. motor vehicles wouldn't be as fun as they sound.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

I expect Garlemald to be very much like modern day Japan right now or a combination of FFXV and FFXIII world due to the level of technology.

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I very much doubt that though based on the levels of technology their military is openly using in Eorzea and Othard - somewhere roughly between steampunk and dieselpunk levels with steam trains, riveted iron plate and girderwork, and primitive CRT displays and analog gauges and dials, side by side with push button inputs, mechs and primitive artificial intelligence.

I mentioned it before earlier in this thread but I honestly expect Garlemald itself to be rather similar to Vector from FFVI or Archades from FFXII, reasonably technologically advanced, but nothing like our contemporary society. It just wouldn't fit what we have already seen with Garlemald's military.

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Originally Posted by VargasVermillion

I doubt this will happen for the same reason cloud's bike wasn't added, they were going to add it but it looked too awkward with the mount speed the game has. motor vehicles wouldn't be as fun as they sound.

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Eh, the speed shouldn't be that much of a deal breaker considering how we have dragons and allagan made AI balls flying at same speed. It'be lot of run to be strolling through the land with a 'car' mount though.


Although. I do want us to visit Garlemald. Not necessarily as 'invading' it per se. Seems like pushing it bit too far, considering how the Eorzean alliance struggles with one legion - Legion that was lead half-assedly by uncaring loonie.

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Originally Posted by VargasVermillion

My point is that many of our allies would of done the same thing if the opportunity came. If a nation encounters a weaker nation they'll do what they can do get as much from that as possible. Hydaelyn isn't a place where you can apply a modern day moral compass.

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We cant say that they would have done the same thing because they are not in that position so we cant just assume that they would react the same way. I mean look at the current Eorzea, they needed a primal and Ilbert to finally go against Garlemald on their own continent. Also like Cilia said we still have lots of sovereign states in Eorzea and in the last few years only Ala Mhigo tried to take over Gridania. (And some even longer time ago we had the Uldah situation) Yet every conflict of the last decades always stayed in Eorzea and did not include the whole world.

And seeing how the Alliance reacted to the tower shooting and to the experiments I am quite sure that morality is a big point. It is not to our standard today but even in our time we have countries that are not at the western standard.

Also war is never necessary and war is alway bad..there is no war that is right..and we see it today that a lot of western countries are trying to solve conflicts in other ways..because all that war does is killing people and breeding more hate..So yes war itself is black..

I - love - the idea of they defeating and capturing the WoL through Garlemald expansion. Perfect opportunity to meet new allies. Maybe a insurgent rebellion faction there.

I'm also keen to see their cities. Judging by the military architecture, it might be something VERY technological, Perhaps inspired in FFVII's Midgar, with a section of high buildings, skyscrapers and highways, and another section with slums, where the poor, subjugated races linger.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Also war is never necessary and war is alway bad..there is no war that is right..and we see it today that a lot of western countries are trying to solve conflicts in other ways..because all that war does is killing people and breeding more hate..So yes war itself is black..

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We wouldn't be as technologically advanced without war, the most technologically advanced nations in history built that up out of necessity. Good or bad is irrelevant, it's just inevitable while people can have differing views on how the world should be run or who's god is the real one or when different lands have to compete for resources.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

... in the last few years only Ala Mhigo tried to take over Gridania. (And some even longer time ago we had the Uldah situation)...

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That war everybody loves to bring up when condemning Ala Mhigo, the Summer War, happened a century ago. Also it should be noted that the Gridanians have forgiven the Ala Mhigans for it.

The War of the Sisters between Ul'dah and Sil'dih was four centuries ago. Ul'dah did commit at least one atrocity during the war - they used Traders' Spurn to turn the Sil'dihns into zombies. You can probably tell how that ended. The Ul'dahns didn't record it that way - history is written by the winners, after all - but... again, it was four centuries ago, and we have no records of contemporary Ul'dahns condoning such actions, plutocrats or not.

On the subject of how we get to Garlemald (if that is what ends up happening), while I agree that having us go in as a POW, break out, and join a rebellion would be cool, from a gameplay perspective I doubt it'd happen. Too much would be inaccessible if they did it that way, unless the "Garlean Rebellion" (for want of a better term) has access to a mini-aetheryte they can install in their base and Garlemald just happens to have aetherytes its citizens can't use in its cities. I'd say there's the matter of us being an (in)famous killer to the Garleans as well, but given the crown prince of the Empire seemingly had no idea who we were when first we met perhaps most Garleans don't actually know who we are? Great opportunity for drama, though.

I currently compare the Empire's technology to that of the Thirstquencher Empire from Brave Fencer Musashi, cybernetics notwithstanding.

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Originally Posted by VargasVermillion

We wouldn't be as technologically advanced without war, the most technologically advanced nations in history built that up out of necessity. Good or bad is irrelevant, it's just inevitable while people can have differing views on how the world should be run or who's god is the real one or when different lands have to compete for resources.

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Wars should not be waged for the sole purpose of technological advancement. In Garlemald's case, they did not begin their large-scale and long-running campaign of conquest until after a technological breakthrough resulted in the magitek engine, which Solus zos Galvus quickly adapted for use in war.

While I agree that war is an inevitable part of life, it should be the absolute last course of action. Diplomacy should at least be tried before resorting to violence.

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Originally Posted by Matriqona

Although. I do want us to visit Garlemald. Not necessarily as 'invading' it per se. Seems like pushing it bit too far, considering how the Eorzean alliance struggles with one legion - Legion that was lead half-assedly by uncaring loonie.

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Mm. It's already a stretch that Ala Mhigo and Doma were liberated so easily - but that, at least, can largely be attributed to Zenos letting them be liberated easily. As it stands, though, a full on war with Garlemald should be something that the Warrior of Light and Scions seek to avoid at all cost. An incredible amount of people will perish on either side should it occur - and that's not including those who happen to be caught up in the middle of it all. Furthermore the Warrior of Light and Scions have already seen the bitter consequences of a thousand year long war where Ishgard is concerned.

Doma and Ala Mhigo have been liberated. If they do not attempt diplomacy at this point then they have very little moral high ground to stand on and will simply be falling prey to the same bitter hatred that consumed Ishgard. It'll merely be a case of replacing 'Dravanians' with 'Garleans'.

I'd be all for working with someone like Larsa who values peace between Eorzea and Garlemald. Larsa is particularly great since he remained loyal to his homeland and people. He did not defect, he genuinely wanted peace and diplomacy to be embraced whilst putting an end to the rot that existed not only within his own homeland but outside of it as well. Applying that to FFXIV, we've already seen countless examples of rotten figures within Eorzea and Othard but we've also seen numerous examples of good people along the way. It'll be no different with Garlemald - I have no doubt in that regard. The Warrior of Light should have little doubt either since he's encountered the likes of Regula and Baut who are wholly reasonable, honourable individuals.

Which means a full on war is not the way to go at all.

As far as Garlemald itself goes...I do get 'Midgar' vibes from what little we've seen of the place on the official world map. I also suspect that the capital itself will be much more advanced than the military fortifications we've seen in foreign territories. With that said, though, even they're pretty advanced - and whilst it's not as advanced as the Allagan stuff we've seen in the likes of Azyz Lla it's pretty close.

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Originally Posted by VargasVermillion

We wouldn't be as technologically advanced without war, the most technologically advanced nations in history built that up out of necessity.

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Broken window fallacy.

War tends to advance scientific research into militarily useful fields, that eventually get expanded into civilian uses in peacetime; the example that gets brought up is GPS. However, this also tends to freeze research into more blue-sky goals, like curing cancer or eradicating smallpox. This is also not including the damage war does to infrastructure, including that necessary for research.

In FFXIV, we've already seen one example of peace causing stagnation, viz the Allagan Empire. However, their wartime innovations cannot be said to be wholly beneficial (obviously), and we do know that Xande's attempts to speed up progress by executing one member of his research staff every day until they produced results is probably not the most efficient way of enhancing scientific research in all areas.

Overall, it is usually unquestioned that war brings with it much evil, regardless of the intent or justification. The debate is whether it is a necessary evil; anti-war proponents question the "necessary" part. Garlemald hiring Roegadyn battlemages to defend themselves against Hyuran raiders is probably necessary; Garlemald using magitek to conquer two and a half continents is probably not.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

The War of the Sisters between Ul'dah and Sil'dih was four centuries ago. Ul'dah did commit at least one atrocity during the war - they used Traders' Spurn to turn the Sil'dihns into zombies.

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There's also another incident that may or may not rise to the level of "atrocity", but is generally seen as pretty terrible. Before Ul'dah and Sil'dih were formally founded, the eventual prince of Sil'dih used the aetheryte network to ambush his enemy. The eventual prince of Ul'dah then destroyed an aetheryte while it was in use, causing eight hundred enemy soldiers to vanish without a trace.

This was seen as unconscionable enough that the Sharlayans, who set up the aetheryte network in the first place, shut down the whole thing until the civil war ended. I would not be surprised if this incident contributed greatly to Sharlayan's current isolationism, and its belief that Eorzeans are all warlike barbarians. After all, we clearly haven't shown any marked improvement in the six hundred years since.

@Cilia: Oh I know but I thought I might mention the Ala Mhigo war before someone else will just post "but Eorzea had their wars too" even if they happened in the past. Anyway I cant see how the current city states would go to war against the core empire on their own will.

But I do like the idea of the WoL being captured by someone and we are a prisoner of Garlemald and kinda escape thanks to a rebellion inside of Garlemald. This would give us a chance to see their side without much influence but without the need of another big war with Eorzea.

@YianKutku: Exactly. We cant go around and say that war is necessary to advance the civilization. Even more since war created some really horrible bombs in real life..also there is always the question of "do we truly need that much advancement in technology? (But that is probably a discussion that is not good in this forum x)) And since we cant ever know how it would have went without war, we can never say that something like that is truly necessary.

At least in FF14 we know that many of the technological advanced states overdid it, grew too power hungry and caused their own downfall. (And a calamity on top of that) But I have nothing against a magitek kettle. :P

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Originally Posted by Alleo

At least in FF14 we know that many of the technological advanced states overdid it, grew too power hungry and caused their own downfall. (And a calamity on top of that) But I have nothing against a magitek kettle. :P

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It's kind of hilarious how the Calamities are essentially Second Verse Same As The First, when it comes to the hubris of mankind leading to their downfall. Of the seven Umbral Calamities we know of, the Second, Third, Fourth, and Sixth are (allegedly) due to Me Am Play Gods, and arguably the Seventh being a result of the Fourth. The only reason the First and Fifth Umbral Calamities aren't on the list is because we have no idea how they came about.

It does seem like there's this odd message that Industry and Progress cause disasters, with the Fifth Astral Era/Sixth Umbral Calamity being a search-and-replace of "technology" with "magic".

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

It does seem like there's this odd message that Industry and Progress cause disasters, with the Fifth Astral Era/Sixth Umbral Calamity being a search-and-replace of "technology" with "magic".

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A lot of stories especially sci-fi ones cover themes like this, ever since the atomic bomb people assume technological progress will be humanities downfall. On that idea about the WoL being a prisoner of war, there are two ways i can see this being done, the first would be to have some of our allies held hostage and we have to run various errands for the emperor or someone else within garlemalds political circle where we can wander around freely under the pretense that we won't do anything stupid, the second could go similarly except we have some kind of link pearl implanted into our head that'll fry our brains if we don't comply.

Faith doesn't seem to be doing much better.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

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Pushing the idea that Eorzean Alliance could take and occupy Garlemald, is I think putting the suspension of disbelief inch too far away. It's like akin to writing a story how Mexico and Canada conquered the United States.

Another interesting thing at the moment though, is complete lacking of actual Garlean characters (By that I'm referring to once actually on the side of Garlean Empire.) There's the emperor but that's it.
I wonder, if they'll or when they will add new Garlean characters. We require our daily dose of big scary Garleans in their overly stylized 'cool' armors.

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Originally Posted by Matriqona

Pushing the idea that Eorzean Alliance could take and occupy Garlemald, is I think putting the suspension of disbelief inch too far away. It's like akin to writing a story how Mexico and Canada conquered the United States.

Another interesting thing at the moment though, is complete lacking of actual Garlean characters (By that I'm referring to once actually on the side of Garlean Empire.) There's the emperor but that's it.
I wonder, if they'll or when they will add new Garlean characters. We require our daily dose of big scary Garleans in their overly stylized 'cool' armors.

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I'm kinda hoping there are some characters that are garleans, but aren't inhuman....and not Cid.
I think I've come to hate Cid more than any other character involved. And it's not even a real hate like Thancred, but rather...he had the choice we do not, and apparently will never... have.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

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There are most likely a lot of good Garleans within Garlemald but can not escape nor defect from Garlemald because they have no means of leaving Garlemald or they believe they can change things from within their government system.

Every single Good Garlean we have met so far have only been able to escape and defect from Garlean Empire because they either had a personal means of transportation such as Cid and his airship or was already outside of Garlemald within a position to defect mostly as a member of a military sector.

It is very common tend right now that all Good garleans we know are Defectors.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

There are most likely a lot of good Garleans within Garlemald but can not escape nor defect from Garlemald because they have no means of leaving Garlemald or they believe they can change things from within their government system.

Every single Good Garlean we have met so far have only been able to escape and defect from Garlean Empire because they either had a personal means of transportation such as Cid and his airship or was already outside of Garlemald within a position to defect mostly as a member of a military sector.

It is very common tend right now that all Good garleans we know are Defectors.

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I kinda find that ridiculous. especially if reform is what we (possibly) want. I guess were just that much a monster over there.

I just don't see a point, or anything we could replace it with. I see the point of reformation, but destroying the country feels terrible, and not the sort of terrible you can just reflect on in an afternoon and celebrate in the evening with Cid.

They gave us the perfect candidate for a better relationship with Garlemald in the form of Regula. Then, just as they had him prove his heroic and honourable nature...they killed him off. It just baffles me. So far there hasn't been any acknowledgement of his sacrifice in the aftermath of his death. Part of me is concerned that he was only killed off to tie in with Yoshi-P trying to speak on behalf of players as to who they should and should not sympathise with. It really does feel heavy handed.

I'll retract the statement if something major comes of it such as Elidibus taking on the appearance of Regula to manipulate and toy with Varis...or the Scions decide to remember what Regula did for them and repay the favour by helping out a Garlemald aligned Garlean with a mutual problem in a similar manner. As it stands, though, if Elidibus isn't taking on Regula's appearance then the entire thing feels like a waste of a solid character. If Elidibus isn't pulling that particular trick then Regula could have stumbled upon the meeting with Elidibus, expressed his concerns to Varis and then perhaps after being told it was a 'necessity' he could have sought out the Warrior of Light in an attempt to find some way to prevent yet another Ascian tugging the strings of a prominent leader figure. It could simply be framed as Regula seeking to protect and save his beloved friend.

I'm also surprised that nobody in the main cast stops to consider that maybe the Ascians are behind all of the conflict. Especially since that is correct. Elidibus first manipulated the Warriors of Darkness and then gave the Eyes of Nidhogg to Ilberd. Did the Scions even work out how he got them? He was holding them in the final cutscene of Baelsar's Wall, if I recall correctly. The Griffin's actions brought forth Shinryu which Zenos then exploited as a consequence. Then, of course, there's Omega.

It just feels 'off' to me. They know full well that Elidibus is out there somewhere...along with other Ascians.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

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I suspect it is because they lack knowledge about how far the Ascian influence reach because in official History the Ascian do not exist in records. To the majority and Scions the events of the war was all done through natural conflict and personal interests without some magical ghost whispering devilish words into their ears.

It also would be very far fetched if some person just showed up and said "Hey recorded history is wrong! The ones responsible for all the world's chaos and destruction throughout the eras are a bunch of Evil Ghost Cult called Ascians who worship this God called Zodiark."

Having a Garlean commander whom wasn't a totally incompetent crazy person wouldn't hurt either. I get it needs to be done to 'nerf' Garleans but still.

Poor Regula, only sensible fellow in the whole military. Too bad he was lost to saving a whinge midget Ascian from slap attack of a mutant Satan.

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Originally Posted by VargasVermillion

A lot of stories especially sci-fi ones cover themes like this, ever since the atomic bomb people assume technological progress will be humanities downfall.

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Pre-dates WW2: R.U.R., the first robot rebellion story (and which gave us the term "robot" to mean automatons; these first "robots" were biological, however), was written in 1920. I'm sure there are even earlier examples; if you squint a bit, the biblical Tower of Babel (and whatever myths inspired it) might count.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

There are most likely a lot of good Garleans within Garlemald but can not escape nor defect from Garlemald because they have no means of leaving Garlemald or they believe they can change things from within their government system.

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I'd be satisfied with examples of Garleans who may not be considered wholly "good", but at least are not completely terrible. Maybe they have flaws, maybe they have the arrogant dismissal of Eorzeans as savages, but they don't execute their subordinates on the spot for the slightest mistakes or rule through fear or are just insufferably evil for the sake of being evil.

I'd actually like to see a "good Garlean", honourable and kind and cares for their underlings and peers, who is nevertheless still an enemy, and who believes deeply in the Empire of Garlemald. As mentioned many times, Regula would fit, but he got killed off, so it's something of a waste. Rhitatyn didn't even get any characterization before he got dogpiled in Cape Westwind.

It's kind of tiring to see the usual cliche of having all the morally righteous characters be either on our side or working with us, and all the opponents be horrible people for no reason other than that they're on the other side.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I'm also surprised that nobody in the main cast stops to consider that maybe the Ascians are behind all of the conflict. Especially since that is correct. Elidibus first manipulated the Warriors of Darkness and then gave the Eyes of Nidhogg to Ilberd. Did the Scions even work out how he got them? He was holding them in the final cutscene of Baelsar's Wall, if I recall correctly. The Griffin's actions brought forth Shinryu which Zenos then exploited as a consequence. Then, of course, there's Omega.

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As far as I can tell, the Scions still have no idea how the Ascians got the Eyes. All the Ishgardians (Hilda, Aymeric) say that they didn't think anything could survive down in the abyss, and Alphinaud notes that "no mortal could endure such conditions". Then they decide that it doesn't matter, and the important thing is to deal with the present situation rather than speculate on the past. (Aymeric does apologize for telling you to toss the Eyes off the bridge.)

Even stranger is how the game implies that it wasn't Elidibus who retrieved the Eyes personally, but that he was given them by the Warriors of Darkness. Which I suppose technically still fits the "no mortal" bit, but I'm not sure how the Warriors of Darkness actually managed that feat.

In any case, I think the Scions are well aware that behind every major crisis to Hydaelyn, there's an Ascian (or more) behind it. They just can't really do anything about it at the moment, since the Ascians can come and go as they please, and it requires a lot of preparation just to track one down, much less defeat them.

And when it comes to the Garlean Empire, a lot of their evil deeds can be easily explained as general imperial terrible-ness, without need for Ascian conspiracies.

As for the antagonists, Gaius may have known, but was desperate for a way to contain Primals. Thordan definitely knew, but didn't care (and managed to successfully betray the Ascians anyway). The Warriors of Darkness knew, and were deliberately counting on it. Ilberd may or may not have known, but was obsessed enough not to care either. Varis probably also knew, but I don't think he cares.

All of them seem to have the usual villainous arrogance of believing that surely even the Warrior of Light cannot stop them this time.

Oh there was another honorable Garlean higher up. The one at the beginning when they talked about the Roe that again got defeated by us. He stood up for his underling and paid the deathly price for this. I hope that this does not happen in all legions..otherwise Garlemald surely will kill itself from the inside.

About the WoD and the eyes: Well they are kinda already death so maybe the situation down there could not hurt them thanks to that. (Or just plot commands it)

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Oh there was another honorable Garlean higher up. The one at the beginning when they talked about the Roe that again got defeated by us. He stood up for his underling and paid the deathly price for this. I hope that this does not happen in all legions..otherwise Garlemald surely will kill itself from the inside.

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I think it's to show what Zenos is like to his underlings compared to the other generals we've had. The XIV soldiers loved Gaius; Regula wasn't liked by the VI because people thought he earned his rank via nepotism rather than cruelty like Zenos, but they respected him in the end.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Oh there was another honorable Garlean higher up. The one at the beginning when they talked about the Roe that again got defeated by us. He stood up for his underling and paid the deathly price for this. I hope that this does not happen in all legions..otherwise Garlemald surely will kill itself from the inside.

About the WoD and the eyes: Well they are kinda already death so maybe the situation down there could not hurt them thanks to that. (Or just plot commands it)

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I'm surprised that Garlean Empire has not imploded already considering they my be strong on the outside but inside they are suffering from internal conflicts mostly for position of power.

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Originally Posted by Eyvhokan

I think it's to show what Zenos is like to his underlings compared to the other generals we've had. The XIV soldiers loved Gaius; Regula wasn't liked by the VI because people thought he earned his rank via nepotism rather than cruelty like Zenos, but they respected him in the end.

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But I do question why Varis does nothing in a situation like that. (Putting his son, that he himself sees as a monster, on a throne in any country is simply bad...sent him to the battle fields all over the world where he can fight, but dont let him lead stuff) If the soldiers see that their leader gives the higher ups a free hand in these things they might lose their respect in him. And I do believe that this might be one of the points which will lead to their downfall.

....We do not know when Varis put Zenos under the knife, or if Zenos' psychopathy was something he had before the experiment.

Also, Zenos is, on paper, a powerhouse of a soldier, perhaps it wasn't feasible to remove him without political fallout until he proved an impediment to military success( iirc, military connections were the deciding factor in Varis getting the throne.)

The reading I got from the cutscene with Varis and Elidibus is that Varis knew about all of Zenos' experiments and activities. Frumentarium sees all, and if you don't want to believe that Elidibus could have very easily told him. When Elidibus referred to Zenos as a "valuable test subject," I don't think he was referring to something prior to 4.0 - I figured he was talking about the Resonant Echo and, well... for lack of a better term, magitek infusion.

Zenos is freakishly powerful even before he becomes a Resonant, but I'm not inclined to believe it was thanks to some secret procedure.

But if he is such a powerhouse why not sent him out to do some suicide like missions? Varis himself said that Zenos was not fit to sit on the throne yet he gave him such a position. And since he was able to take out all the samurai in the rebellion in Doma in the past, he was already a strong fighter.

So if you want to conquer Eorzea or other continents why not just sent him and some other fight loving soldiers there to cause some unrest. If the people are too weak, Zenos might have claimed some land and if not you would have only lost a "monster" anyway. Yet he let him lead Ala Mhigo and Doma with a very bloody hand which will surely cause destabilization and unrest in these countries and maybe even among their own soldiers.