#DeleteSmn aka "Here's where you can shove your Bahamut" thread

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Originally Posted by Fyce

The change is that the passive skill that was needed to raise during combat was removed. But Raise changed to be directly usable in combat anyway.
Swiftcast is still there too.

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The passive skill to raise was a WHM one to my knowledge, the ACN/SMN res was one that could be used for combat raise without a passive trait. Unless they're redesigning it to require a trait, you should still be able to do a combat res with it.

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Originally Posted by TSLsmokey

The passive skill to raise was a WHM one to my knowledge, the ACN/SMN res was one that could be used for combat raise without a passive trait. Unless they're redesigning it to require a trait, you should still be able to do a combat res with it.

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Oh, right, I was thinking about CNJ. My bad.
However, for ACN, I don't see a trait for Resurrection. It just went down to Lv.18 instead of 22.

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Originally Posted by Senliten

saw the vids and the 5k (5599 base standard to show i was paying attention and paused each time fester was applied with just the two dots to jot down), so show me where it is an upgrade compared to our current 300 pot with just fester and the three dots, where that 5k base is currently already doable.


Which again, how is this an upgrade? Painflare aside. I'm trying to really grasp where people come up with this 'upgrade' concept where as what is shown hardly constitutes it. Given the gear used and stats applied. Not trying to argue, but to me, someone that would prefer to use what tools are currently at hand to make comparisons, even with the small bit of time left, would like to try and understand this a lot more.

E: ***, annnnnd now i see it, FML OMZ, i'll apologize and hang myself now for being blinded and over hyper analyzing.

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If I had to guess, I think the upgrade of our dps comes out of this:

Per 2 Minutes you get to cast (depends on actual rotation, so i can't tell exactly) 2-4 DoT Spells max. and (with 2,4s GCD) about 46-48 ruin1/ruin2/ruin3/drain/ruin4 (depending on needed Movement+Weaves/Proc/MP reserve/3D-Buff and/or DWT). On about 8 GCDS additional 120(?) pot form Bahamut + 2 additional Deathflares (did they have bigger Pot as well?).
DWT got proplonged by 1-2s, so less Spellspeed needed for 6x Ruin3, esp. since you don't need Swiftcast for Shadowflare, which means more Crit/Directhit for me I guess.
Battle Lit without a BRD, idk the CD.
By now you cast, idk, 14 DoTs per 2 minutes, counting Shadowflare, so with the MP you save alone from that means bigger Ruin3 ratio.

For me that sounds like a single target boost, forget the 50 pot on ruin3 (which now get's transformed to ruin4 occasionally anyway, which lead to higher count of Ruin3s in comparision), the 30 pot on tick and yes, even the 250 pot of Shadowflare per minute (or got pot raised? idk). Above sounds pretty big. Yeah, Aetherflow got nerfed (saw it only give 10% of max. MP), but Drain is a no-dps-loss ability in some occasions and you also have a optional SoS.

I don't bother with AoE now, because there are to many dependencies, like how useful is a 30s DoT on big add groups, if you can use 3x Painflare and enter DWT within 15s, esp. if it's the 2nd add group and you have Bahamut up.

Well from my perspective...

While I think its possible the Fester tooltip was a typo... but the rest of the stuff definitely wasn't.

This is a huge mega nerf in my opinion.

While its true we will have to wait to find out, to be honest unless something drastically changes... its not really looking good for SMN or the job you level to get there (Arcanist).

I am going to have to wait and see because things can definitely change before launch. They did say these tooltips were subject to change or may be inaccurate....... but honestly I already have one foot out the door to either BLM or RDM.

I do not want to play a broken class... that is not fun at all.

I loved this job, and it was working just fine... but we'll see if that continues.

If they decided to get cute and broke it... well then, there's no reason for me or anyone else to play it.

If you're still worried about Summoner, give this a read. http://docs.google.com/document/d/1J...1thqLy3yO2N9A/

Bane was the only real nerf to the job. 4.0 bane is still better than 2.0 bane though

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

If you're still worried about Summoner, give this a read. http://docs.google.com/document/d/1J...1thqLy3yO2N9A/

Bane was the only real nerf to the job. 4.0 bane is still better than 2.0 bane though

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Read it, was unimpressed.

Its laughable how SMNs are complaining at how the job is progressing toward being a summoner as opposed to a DoT mage.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

If I had to guess, I think the upgrade of our dps comes out of this:

Per 2 Minutes you get to cast (depends on actual rotation, so i can't tell exactly) 2-4 DoT Spells max. and (with 2,4s GCD) about 46-48 ruin1/ruin2/ruin3/drain/ruin4 (depending on needed Movement+Weaves/Proc/MP reserve/3D-Buff and/or DWT). On about 8 GCDS additional 120(?) pot form Bahamut + 2 additional Deathflares (did they have bigger Pot as well?).
DWT got proplonged by 1-2s, so less Spellspeed needed for 6x Ruin3, esp. since you don't need Swiftcast for Shadowflare, which means more Crit/Directhit for me I guess.
Battle Lit without a BRD, idk the CD.
By now you cast, idk, 14 DoTs per 2 minutes, counting Shadowflare, so with the MP you save alone from that means bigger Ruin3 ratio.

For me that sounds like a single target boost, forget the 50 pot on ruin3 (which now get's transformed to ruin4 occasionally anyway, which lead to higher count of Ruin3s in comparision), the 30 pot on tick and yes, even the 250 pot of Shadowflare per minute (or got pot raised? idk). Above sounds pretty big. Yeah, Aetherflow got nerfed (saw it only give 10% of max. MP), but Drain is a no-dps-loss ability in some occasions and you also have a optional SoS.

I don't bother with AoE now, because there are to many dependencies, like how useful is a 30s DoT on big add groups, if you can use 3x Painflare and enter DWT within 15s, esp. if it's the 2nd add group and you have Bahamut up.

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Yeah and that along with reading Hai Hais lil analysis is something i'm processing now, it seems fairly sound. I still will say I am partially not 100% on Fester's text being incorrect, given there is still info and variables like weights and gear that i feel are not being taken into account, that will have to be found out during launch, but i'm not going to get into that again. I'm just going to wait it out now and burn out during EA under the guise that 200 is the new 300.

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Originally Posted by Kogasan

I hate the way Square-enix has taken summoner. I like it the way it is now. Why fix something that isn't broken.

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if this forum is to be believed you're definitely in the minority. most people believed SMN was broken (and it probably always will be missing Ramuh, Shiva, Leviathan).

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

If you're still worried about Summoner, give this a read. http://docs.google.com/document/d/1J...1thqLy3yO2N9A/

Bane was the only real nerf to the job. 4.0 bane is still better than 2.0 bane though

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This just such a great job of breaking down why many of these changes will ultimately work out for this job. I know it's not the direction some wanted for SMN, and by all accounts we're finally moving away from DoTs and more into damage from Pets/Ruin, but it's not the job kill many are making it out to be. I'll be sticking with it for sure, I've stuck with Summoner since 2.0, even through the lean times of 2.4/2.5 when people abandoned it en masse, and I really can't wait to get my hands on 4.x SMN.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

If you're still worried about Summoner, give this a read. http://docs.google.com/document/d/1J...1thqLy3yO2N9A/

Bane was the only real nerf to the job. 4.0 bane is still better than 2.0 bane though

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Without the drop in potency per extended mob, Bane is already nerfed ~30% simply due to DoTs being 80 potency vs 110 potency.

The only real nerf.. so a 50% nerf in Shadowflare isn't a nerf? How about require procs to have 200 potency ruins? How about 150 potency per Ruin III's? How about loss of Raging Strikes? How about no DWT'd festers? How about Garuda's attack potency dropping? How about the loss of Spur?

While the new stuff might make up for things, it's not looking good on paper. I'm curious to see what it all looks like live in a couple of weeks.

Read some more of that link. I only got a bit of the way down and had enough.

First, he defends a Ruin 3 nerf by saying it's easier for people. He is right, it is easier for people to use, and that's good. However, the nerf aspect is not good. We should be raising the DPS floor, not sinking the ceiling. That has major balance implications.

Second, he speaks about DoT potency and ignores taking into account buffing DoTs + Contagion, and Tri-Disaster. This also ignores bane.

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Originally Posted by Senliten

Yeah and that along with reading Hai Hais lil analysis is something i'm processing now, it seems fairly sound. I still will say I am partially not 100% on Fester's text being incorrect, given there is still info and variables like weights and gear that i feel are not being taken into account, that will have to be found out during launch, but i'm not going to get into that again. I'm just going to wait it out now and burn out during EA under the guise that 200 is the new 300.

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There is no other explanation of Fester being 33% stronger than Painflare within the same GCD on a dummy without group members than it being of 33% higher potency than painflare. The screenshot of the DOC are within 0,5ish seconds taken from MrHappy hitting a dummy with Fester+Painflare.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

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Don't forget Garuda has a mini foe requiem as well.

So there's a redistribution of SMN damage and people want to call it a nerf...

Thank you for the spreadsheet too!

@Kaurie

You should read the whole thing, what people here aren't taking into consideration are the freed up GCDs from the increase of DoT duration and the fact that shadowflare doesn't use a GCD anymore, the changes to DWT and tri-d make it so you have to use dots way less often as well, freeing up those two GCDs (previously 3 gcds).

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

First, he defends a Ruin 3 nerf by saying it's easier for people. He is right, it is easier for people to use, and that's good. However, the nerf aspect is not good. We should be raising the DPS floor, not sinking the ceiling. That has major balance implications.

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you don't know the balance implications till we start figuring out what numbers all the other DPS jobs are going to put out. SMN lost a DoT, DRG lost a DoT, MNK lost a DoT, NIN lost a DoT, WAR lost a DoT, DRK lost a DoT. RDM is brand new.

so unless you're going to say all raids are going to be all BLMs all the time we don't really know anything right now. anything super glaring they have the time from early access to when Savage gets released to patch.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

Its laughable how SMNs are complaining at how the job is progressing toward being a summoner as opposed to a DoT mage.

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Well being that you have to level Arcanist in order to even become a Summoner...

Obviously nerfing all the old Arcanist stuff it takes to get there... makes it pretty tough to even become a Summoner in the first place.

But I digress, there's more than just that. We also have to be level synced for things... and now throw out all that "good" stuff at level 70... and replace it with all the stuff that is nerfed... (or was removed)

And surprise... what do you think happens?

The job will be absolute hell to play at anything other than level 70.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

@Kaurie

You should read the whole thing, what people here aren't taking into consideration are the freed up GCDs from the increase of DoT duration and the fact that shadowflare doesn't use a GCD anymore, the changes to DWT and tri-d make it so you have to use dots way less often as well, freeing up those two GCDs (previously 3 gcds).

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I just got bored of reading it. It was unnecessarily long and condescending, while being somewhat incorrect. I understood that he was getting at added GCD's. His math was off though, as he did not take into account buffs + contagion.

I think it's too complex to say 100%, and we'll just have to wait and see how it all balances out. I am not exclaiming the sky is falling, but I am definitely concerned over SMN's viability. I am especially more concerned after watching some of the other DPS's videos.

One thing that was recently pointed out to me is that Shadowflare is actually 15s, not 30s now. So that saw a 75% nerf. While the tooltips all show 30s, the video clearly had it at 15s.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

you don't know the balance implications till we start figuring out what numbers all the other DPS jobs are going to put out. SMN lost a DoT, DRG lost a DoT, MNK lost a DoT, NIN lost a DoT, WAR lost a DoT, DRK lost a DoT. RDM is brand new.

so unless you're going to say all raids are going to be all BLMs all the time we don't really know anything right now. anything super glaring they have the time from early access to when Savage gets released to patch.

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I agree, we don't that's why I added that, "
While the new stuff might make up for things, it's not looking good on paper. I'm curious to see what it all looks like live in a couple of weeks." :)

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

Well being that you have to level Arcanist in order to even become a Summoner...

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I think he's remarking about how SMN's have always been rather loud and vocal in how they're a glorified Affliction Warlock instead of a summoner, and now that the steps are being had to switch that up, people are complaining- Which is kind of funny.

Viability is always a concern for a class and I don't think he's questioning that.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

I think he's remarking about how SMN's have always been rather loud and vocal in how they're a glorified Affliction Warlock instead of a summoner, and now that the steps are being had to switch that up, people are complaining- Which is kind of funny.

Viability is always a concern for a class and I don't think he's questioning that.

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Ahh I see...

If only one of those changes could be the change from a book to a cute primal dolls to cuddle...

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

Well being that you have to level Arcanist in order to even become a Summoner...

Obviously nerfing all the old Arcanist stuff it takes to get there... makes it pretty tough to even become a Summoner in the first place.

But I digress, there's more than just that. We also have to be level synced for things... and now throw out all that "good" stuff at level 70... and replace it with all the stuff that is nerfed... (or was removed)

And surprise... what do you think happens?

The job will be absolute hell to play at anything other than level 70.

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Being a little over dramatic are we. Non-raid content doesn't exactly require a high skill level, or even full utilization of skill sets available.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

Well being that you have to level Arcanist in order to even become a Summoner...

Obviously nerfing all the old Arcanist stuff it takes to get there... makes it pretty tough to even become a Summoner in the first place.

But I digress, there's more than just that. We also have to be level synced for things... and now throw out all that "good" stuff at level 70... and replace it with all the stuff that is nerfed... (or was removed)

And surprise... what do you think happens?

The job will be absolute hell to play at anything other than level 70.

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Isn't this the case already lol. SE design on when classes/jobs get certain abilities while leveling is and has been absolutely horrid from the start. Some classes more than others are either a giant pain in the arse or are an absolute borefest while leveling/synced.

They hold off key class identity and game changing abilities and traits to levels waaaaay into the game, giving one no time to practice or get used to some of these till practically max level lol. For example, till stormblood paladin was the only tank to not have access to a tank stance till 10 levels after the others.

Or BLM, did we really need Leylines and Sharpcast so early into HW? Would it not have made more sense to pace their abilities with Enochian first, followed by fire 4 to start incorporating it as your main source of dmg instead of fire 1, then blizzard 4 to help you keep the enochian buff going so you can spam more fire 4's. Finally, leylines and sharpcast for the QoL they provide in helping you spam your new rotation.

Any data on ifrit and titan at all?

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Originally Posted by Esper

If only one of those changes could be the change from a book to a cute primal dolls to cuddle...

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The Lulu job.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

Being a little over dramatic are we. Non-raid content doesn't exactly require a high skill level, or even full utilization of skill sets available.

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Nope... not at all...

Try running an Arcanist with nerfed DoTs which is literally ALL your damage... or in dungeons with BANE that doesn't work.... and Blizzard 2 has been removed... Heck I'm hard pressed to say even 50th level at SMN will be somehow work out at all. That's ALL before you get your good stuff like Painflare, DWT, (Nerfed) Tri-Disaster, Deathflare, or the new Nerfed Ruin 3 which was pretty good prior to the nerf... let alone the level 70 stuff.

Ruin 1 didn't change any... and Ruin 2 only went up by 20 potency but lost the Blind component.

You no longer have Sustain to heal your pet when soloing in FATEs.

Literally this guts the Arcanist... and makes leveling ultra slow. Let alone completely hoses up SCH. Nevermind the major DPS hit on the SMN too.

Yeah you it didn't just mega nerf the SMN... it literally crushed the whole path up the chain.

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Originally Posted by Senliten

Yeah and that along with reading Hai Hais lil analysis is something i'm processing now, it seems fairly sound. I still will say I am partially not 100% on Fester's text being incorrect, given there is still info and variables like weights and gear that i feel are not being taken into account, that will have to be found out during launch, but i'm not going to get into that again. I'm just going to wait it out now and burn out during EA under the guise that 200 is the new 300.

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it's not something that really takes much thought. They show painflare and fester right next to each other in a video and fester does more.
also it doesn't make any sense at all to have 2 skills with the same cooldowns and resource cost and the only difference is one is aoe
also 150/300 makes more sense than 150/200 and 2 is right next to 3 on the keyboard

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

Yeah you it didn't just mega nerf the SMN... it literally crushed the whole path up the chain.

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You can call it a "nerf" only by comparing the current SMN to the Stormblood SMN. But you can't tell what will the position of SMN be in Stormblood as you don't know what the overall job balance will be, and what kind of fights we get.

So saying that SMN is dead is completly baseless. So stop crying. You're not a WHM.

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Originally Posted by SomeRandomHuman

If we wanted a single target caster we'd just go play black mage. Summoner was more of an aoe job(especially in HW since they buffed bane). I thought they were just going to declutter jobs, not try to homogenize them all into the same thing.

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Except that summoner isn't supposed to be a aoe centric caster or a dot mage. They are summoners. Most if not all of their damage should be through the creatures they summon which is what it looks like they are trying to achieve with the new demi-bahamut mechanic.


Also, FFXIV jobs aren't even close to being homogenized. You still have classes/jobs that bring unique buffs to a group setting. There is a big difference between homogenization and streamlining job abilities to become more fluid and synergistic. All in all I think summoner will be fine, all these knee-jerk reactions when we don't have all the numbers and data at 70 available is getting ridiculous.

From what I can see, S-E just added 30 seconds to EX roulettes for SMN players. These nerfs from what I can see at this point only really affect the endgame crowd. But Im taking the wait and see approach, as others in this thread have opted to do. Not like they won't balance things after the raid crowd has their tangents come End of Time when issues will become noticable very quickly.

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Originally Posted by Selova

Except that summoner isn't supposed to be a aoe centric caster or a dot mage. They are summoners. Most if not all of their damage should be through the creatures they summon which is what it looks like they are trying to achieve with the new demi-bahamut mechanic.

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That's all great...

Except for the fact they START as Arcanists... not Summoners...

Summoner is what you learn LATER... after you find out about it and become one... It didn't mean you suddenly and mysteriously forgot all the the things you learned as an Arcanist.

But that's beside the point... you can't expect to totally nerf and remove arcanist from the job... and suddenly expect balance... or viability.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

If you're still worried about Summoner, give this a read. http://docs.google.com/document/d/1J...1thqLy3yO2N9A/

Bane was the only real nerf to the job. 4.0 bane is still better than 2.0 bane though

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The information about the dots is wrong. I corrected it on Reddit.

"You can't compare our old dots vs our new dots like you did. You're comparing total potencies over different durations and then giving an apples to apples comparison. This is more accurate:

Old Dots

Bio - 18s duration 40 potency Bio II - 30s duration 35 potency Miasma - 24s duration 35 potency (20 cast potency)

New Dots

Bio III - 30s duration 40 potency Miasma III - 30s duration 40 potency (50 cast potency)

Now, the only way to compare these is to when the cast times all line up. This will happen at 360 seconds since it's the lowest duration divisible by 18, 24, and 30 seconds. Let's compare the old dots and then adjust to compare vs your numbers over one cycle of our new dots (the 850 potency)

Bio - 360s/18s = 20 casts 360s/3s (1 tic) = 120 tics (120 tics x 40 potency) = 4800 potency per 360s

Bio II - 360s/30s = 12 casts Tics are same (120 tics x 35 potency) = 4200 potency per 360s

Miasma - 360s/24s = 15 casts Tics are same (120 tics x 35 potency) = 4200 dot pot per 360s (15 casts x 20 potency) = 300 cast pot per 360s 4200 dot pot + 300 cast pot = 4500 total potency per 360s

4800 + 4500 + 4200 = 13,500 potency per 360s 20 + 15 + 12 = 47 total casts

Now, let's compare to the 850 potency you quoted from one cast rotation of our new dots

Our new dots = 30 seconds per cast

360 seconds / 30 seconds = 12

13,500 potency / 12 = 1,125 potency

So our new dots give us 850 potency during the same amount of time our old dots gave us 1,125 potency. This is a loss of 275 potency every 30 seconds and not the 40 potency you listed.

Now let's look at casts over a 60 second duration as you did.

New dots = 2 per 30 seconds or 4 per 60 seconds

Old dots = 47 per 360 seconds 360s/60s = 6 47/6 = 7.83 casts Now, since you can't do a fraction of a cast I'll round up to 8 casts

So, now you save approximately 4 casts every 60s

Let's fill the 4 gcds in with Ruin II since that's what is most frequently going to be used outside of DWT since it's now more potent than Ruin.

Ruin II - 100 potency 100 potency x 4 gcds = 400 potency added because of freed up gcds

Over that same 60s we are losing 550 potency from our old dots (275 potency per 30s x 2)

Thus we are still losing potency from our new dots even when replacing the freed up gcds with Ruin II. We would need to replace 3 gcds with Ruin III (150 potency) and one with Ruin II just to break even. This however won't be the case considering our Aetherflow was nerfed to be 10% mana retuned and Ruin III is a very Mp costly spell.

But, how about getting Ruin IV procs to make up the deficit. Well, we would need to get at the minimum 2 procs per minute to make up the loss. This may be plausible, but we will have to see"

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

That's all great...

Except for the fact they START as Arcanists...

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I've seen a lot of things on these forums, but I've never seen someone fight for class rights over jobs. Heh.

#Pugilistrights

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

I've seen a lot of things on these forums, but I've never seen someone fight for class rights over jobs. Heh.

#Pugilistrights

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Heh... yeah I never in my wildest dreams ever though I would be defending the Arcanist side... until now... and I saw the results of this possible abortion.

Also, our pet skills were also nerfed (except Ifrit). Here's the comparison and the source. Keep in mind that now when you glamor your pet, the skills seem to change to a carbuncle skill with the same properties.

GARUDA:

Wind Blade: 110 pot ->s Gust: 90 pot
Shockwave: 90 pot + knockback -> Backdraft: 80 pot + knockback
Ariel Slash: 90 pot AoE -> Downburst: 80 pot AoE
Contagion: Extends dots 15s -> Shining Emerald: Enemy Mag Dmg taken +10% for 15s
Ariel Blast we don't have information on.

TITAN:

Rock Buster: 85 pot with Enmity+ -> Gouge: 70 pot with Enmity+
Mountain Buster: 70 pot AoE with Enmity+ -> Shining Topaz: same
Earthen Ward: 20% damage on pet decrease for 20s -> Curl: same
Landslide: 70 pot with 2s stun -> Storm: 60 pot with 2s stun
Earthen Fury we have no information on.

IFRIT:

The only change was to Radiant Shield which now gives the enemy a +2% physical damage taken debuff for 4s


https://m.imgur.com/r/ffxiv/O9JIv

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

That's all great...

Except for the fact they START as Arcanists... not Summoners...

Summoner is what you learn LATER... after you find out about it and become one... It didn't mean you suddenly and mysteriously forgot all the the things you learned as an Arcanist.

But that's beside the point... you can't expect to totally nerf and remove arcanist from the job... and suddenly expect balance... or viability.

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I'm not really arguing about the lore behind the job, it's just that when I think of a summoner I don't think of a caster that's primary strength is aoe dot damage.

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Originally Posted by Selova

I'm not really arguing about the lore behind the job, it's just that when I think of a summoner I don't think of a caster that's primary strength is aoe dot damage.

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Then your entire argument is invalidated sadly. Summoner stems from arcanist so it therefore is never going to be the summoner you imagined.

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Originally Posted by Selova

I'm not really arguing about the lore behind the job, it's just that when I think of a summoner I don't think of a caster that's primary strength is aoe dot damage.

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I do get that,

But honestly here... all they really had to do, was rename what the powers are called... so Bio was called something like "Flames of Ifrit" or something like that, change the graffic to fire... once they reached like 30th level or something, and people would never even notice. Heck they could rename Fester to "Garuda's Piercing Screech" or something like that, and people never even notice. Bane could be something like "Fanning the Flames".

They didn't need to totally rework the job and potentially break what wasn't broken before.

Hell they could even have given us a shiny new graphic like Bahamut now... and never changed a thing and half the people would have gone

"Oh Cool its so Summoner-y now!! I have a Shiny new Bahamut!!"

And never done a thing outside that or ever break anything while trying to "fix" it. And no possibility of breaking the jobs attached to it.

That was really all some people wanted in the first place that were concerned with "Image".

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Originally Posted by Nihility

it's not something that really takes much thought. They show painflare and fester right next to each other in a video and fester does more.
also it doesn't make any sense at all to have 2 skills with the same cooldowns and resource cost and the only difference is one is aoe
also 150/300 makes more sense than 150/200 and 2 is right next to 3 on the keyboard

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Is easier also to backspace numbers and letters out too, seeing you just hold one button. But putting SE's keyboard input proficiency aside, a quick question then; Shouldn't it be painflare getting the change then? Given they already kinda shafted AoE, wouldn't it be more akin to think that given PF is an AoE spell, that it would get the change over fester? Seeing it is showing the lower dmg of the two. The only difference with PF is that it has the 150 POT in PvP description out of it, and it left in the 200 POT. So whats not to say instead PF is 150 perhaps? Has anyone tested just using fester with one dot to test that 150 POT you'd get and see if there is a near similarity with the two? While the norm has always been 'dot up first for max fester', it are these small details which are also valuable in figuring out just which one is actually in need of change, that should also be tested or looked into. Can't just blindly assume because of 'play style'.

E: Watching Mr. Happy's vid again when casting Ruin 3 also brings the thought it might be PF into question. Seeing R3 is hitting for near same amount as what PF would, and it is also a 150 POT, there were also times in the vid he did not have the destructive ruin buff up where these casts were made, and also was not in trance. So again, with that in mind, why wouldn't it be PF getting the change?

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Originally Posted by SomeRandomHuman

Then your entire argument is invalidated sadly. Summoner stems from arcanist so it therefore is never going to be the summoner you imagined.

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Of course in 4.0 they're removing the subjob req and cross class skills, so it's entirely possible that's the first step towards removing classes entirely in 5.0
So then starting smn towards more summon less dot, could be prep for a more 'summoner' job in 5.0 if they ditch classes.

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Originally Posted by KarahaBaruha

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Three things:

1) About Ruin IV procs. It's a 15% chance, every 3 seconds. This means one proc every 6.67 skills. In short, you should expect an average of one Ruin IV proc every 20 seconds. That's 3 procs a minute.
So, your assumption about getting at least 2 procs a minute to make up for the loss is completly doable. In fact, you'll, on average, get 3 procs and not 2, meaning that the advantage is actually to the new rotation.

2) You forgot about the new buff from Tri-disaster. Hai Hai thinks it's around 15%. But I'll take the worst case and say it's 10%. I know it's not much, and I know it won't affect the outcome a lot, but it'll definitly help reducing a bit the gap between now and in Stormblood.

3) Probably the most important thing: DoT upkeep and DoT clipping. I know that you only did "paper maths", but the reality of things is that the new system, which allows for far more Tri-disaster usage, and the fact that we only have two DoT, both at 30 seconds, is a really, really good improvement on DoT upkeep and clipping. Every SMN below the 75th percentile should -at worst- pull the same numbers as before, but more likely do way better.
I mean, if a 60-70th percentile guy like myself can pull a 91th percentile on A12S with a DoT management so bad that the top 1% would probably say something like "at least you try... kind of..." after puking a little in their mouth, then I can guarantee that this factor of DoT upkeep and clipping will have a huge impact on most SMN players.

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Originally Posted by SomeRandomHuman

Then your entire argument is invalidated sadly. Summoner stems from arcanist so it therefore is never going to be the summoner you imagined.

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Except that summoner is already headed in that direction with the new changes. Just because it stems from the arcanist sub class doesn't mean they won't be Summoners that focus on their summons to deal damage. I'm not really following your logic of "Because arcanist".