We're all DDs now >.>

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MirielleLavandre

SNIP

---

Yet this is where the problem lies, stop thinking of each member as a role and start thinking of the party as a unit. If your party dps is low then help them out as a healer/tank and boost the numbers. If the numbers are not low then speed up the fight and get out quicker. This is why hardcore raiders down things so fast they actually co-ordinate and work as one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Misutoraru

Healer COULD do dmg when free, and Tank COULD swap to DPS stance is something i accept and like to do when i have confident, but i would not force it
when the COULD become MUST is what we need to start worrying
but luckily this forum is only represent a small fraction of the whole FFXIV community

---

You are right, I could deal damage or I could rotate flash spam and riot blade. That would make me a bad player, but I could do that, I'm holding hate after all and thats my job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Okay. Now I am convinced you simply don't know healing very well. I have had tanks who were in 235 gear and didn't use a single CD yet I still had downtime, albeit nowhere near my norm. Likewise, I have ran Expert hundreds of times by now and never once have I had to fully heal. In fact, my general average is 60-80% Cleric uptime.

Swiftcast -> Holy -> Cleric Stance -> Divine Seal -> Regen -> Aero III -> Aero II -> Aero -> Fluid Aura -> Presence of Mind -> Stone III

That one HoT will do all the healing I need for most pulls on Solm Al hard. On the few occasions I do get shoddy tanks. I'll drop Cleric after Stone III spam and toss out Tetra.

---

Your experience is different from mine. I use entirely PUG groups, and have adapted to numerous bad situations. The number of times that I got a "perfect" combo of good tank and good DPS can be counted on one hand. Just last night I had one DF group of three sprouts who didn't even know what direction to go (level 51 dungeon,) followed by one that had two crowns and a player who hadn't completed the dungeon.

I don't mind playing these things when people are learning, but there is no way am I going to tell a tank how to play their role. If they say "use regen on me" I will, if they say "dps that thing" maybe that can be done. But if the extent of their advise is railing on how I play, I'm just going to click off the party chat. I know what I'm doing, unless your advice is actually meaningful, which all "healer must DPS" advice is bunk, I'm not going to care. There is a difference between "you're doing it wrong, quit being bad" and "could you cast X please?"

You know which light party duty tends to have the most downtime from the way I play? Amdapoor Keep (Hard), because people have run this enough that they know how to use the vines to whack the monsters, thus the only wipes don't come from the bosses, but the DPS standing under the vines too. The way this duty is setup, the hardest boss is the boogeyman when players don't pay attention, and that's the one that overhealing becomes a magnet for all the adds. Can't be helped if players ignore the mechanics.

What about 8-man content? people are so bored of 8-man content and it shows when it's designed for two tanks but you only need one tank and one healer to actually get to the boss, and then it becomes something of a joke in Castrum Meridianum at the end. if a tank and healer want to DPS instead, be my guest but don't complain.

I actually find The Praetorium's Ultima Weapon (v2.0) and Keeper of the Lake's Midgardsomr (2.5) some of the better level 50 content that is actually designed to use the healing skills because of the generally high-damage party attacks.

I'd rather play The World of Darkness repeatedly with bad PUG's and expect the occasional carries than play leveling roulette with people who want to be carried by asking for healer DPS. No, you learn to play the duty properly, either by going slower, gearing better, or watching a video if you're unwilling to try things for yourself. It is not a requirement to watch a video either. The healer pulling out the DPS is entirely at the discretion of the healer, and from what I've read on the forums, there's just as many bad healers doing DPS as there are that won't DPS. You are playing a game, this is not a competitive sport, and you are not being paid for it. If you are streaming on Twitch or Youtube, maybe heads-up to avoid making embarrassing comments in the chat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

I'd rather play The World of Darkness repeatedly with bad PUG's and expect the occasional carries than play leveling roulette with people who want to be carried by asking for healer DPS. No, you learn to play the duty properly

---

More often then not, players asking healers to dps are not looking for a carry. Players asking the healer to not afk is the main goal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Your experience is different from mine. I use entirely PUG groups, and have adapted to numerous bad situations. The number of times that I got a "perfect" combo of good tank and good DPS can be counted on one hand. Just last night I had one DF group of three sprouts who didn't even know what direction to go (level 51 dungeon,) followed by one that had two crowns and a player who hadn't completed the dungeon.

---

You assume I ran with premades. I don't. That skill order is my standard PUG rotation. I merely adapt based on the tank. Even poorly geared or downright bad tanks don't need 100% attention. As I said, I have healed min ilvl tanks through Baelsar's Wall without hindrance. Bit annoying since he didn't use CDs, but I still managed to DPS fairly high. Granted, I should have bopped him for it but I digress.

The rest of your response... is little more than a rant. You continue to presume healers must constantly heal yet oddly contradict yourself by acknowledging most 8-man content doesn't need two healers. By that admission, you've essentially admitted if neither DPS, one is effectively doing nothing. Your words, albeit it indirectly, not mine. Either way, what does any of this have to do with anything being discussed? I pointed out the lack of dedicated healing required and you've... rambled on about bad DPS and adaption-- something you do not seem to comprehend yourself given how argumentative you've been towards people explaining to you that is precisely how they stay in Cleric so long. All people have asked is everyone evenly contribute. You can bury your head in the sand all you fancy but if the tank and DPS have 300+ abilities cast and you only have 50. Well, who's carrying whom?

One has to also look at it in the perspective that some healers do not heal, not one bit. This may be due to the pressure of feeling to have to dps or just not wanting to bother healing.
Had bad run as example tonight where some dps were dead, instead of reviving players what was the whm doing but just spamming Stone 3, the other healer was doing who knows, lol
There is bad to go all around not just dps but healers and tanks also. Everyone should do their part to help the group.

DPS is the meta for a very simple reason, it's because the content is both heavily scripted so people know when every attack comes, and that nothing hits hard enough to warrant a healer to constantly be healing. Combine those and you wind up with bored healers, and tanks who can drop their stance once they have agro.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaisinel

More often then not, players asking healers to dps are not looking for a carry. Players asking the healer to not afk is the main goal.

---

You'd be surprised. 9/10 times the player asking the healer to dps is the full thrust spamming DRG or the lvl 50 rot BLM. One time saw a Shadow fang nonninjutsu NIN do it as well. Odds seems to be highly in favor of a dps demanding the healer deeps to let them stay bad.

Odds are based on what I see on a nightly four hours spent running content with it occurring at least five times a night, over the last year and a half.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

You assume I ran with premades. I don't. That skill order is my standard PUG rotation. I merely adapt based on the tank. Even poorly geared or downright bad tanks don't need 100% attention. As I said, I have healed min ilvl tanks through Baelsar's Wall without hindrance. Bit annoying since he didn't use CDs, but I still managed to DPS fairly high. Granted, I should have bopped him for it but I digress.

---

Two days ago our tank dc'ed before the first add Group and didn't return. Our new one came in just after the 1st boss. The boss was tanked by the BLM. Still able to do damage (at least after crit aspected benefic shield and after i gave him buffed bole). Nuff said.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

You'd be surprised. 9/10 times the player asking the healer to dps is the full thrust spamming DRG or the lvl 50 rot BLM. One time saw a Shadow fang nonninjutsu NIN do it as well. Odds seems to be highly in favor of a dps demanding the healer deeps to let them stay bad.

Odds are based on what I see on a nightly four hours spent running content with it occurring at least five times a night, over the last year and a half.

---

I find myself in duty finder quite a bit, and I barely see people even ask Healers to dps.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

The rest of your response... is little more than a rant.

---

You're just cherry picking the argument you want to fight. Look I'll summarize what has been said between the three threads in the general forum and the last 8 years of FFXIV:

A) The Healer is meant to heal, both Yoshi-P and the game's own storyline and even this Hall of the newbie that I didn't even know existed until someone mentioned it say this over and over again:
http://i.imgur.com/4w6iWwv.png

The only time attacking as a healer even comes up is "When nobody is bleeding", which is something that again, only happens in F.A.T.E's not Dungeon play. Even in V1.0 the emphasis was on healing.

B) The game does not do a good job with it's AI companions, not only can you not "party" them, or other players pets, for the purposes of the tutorial, the game does something that you tend to only see in F.A.T.E's

http://i.imgur.com/ukHlEYH.png

That being, the AI characters act nothing like players, they stand in avoidable AOE's, all the well telling you to avoid it. Who else does this? Pets and mounts. You could be forgiven thinking that every AI character and monster in the game is exceptionally stupid. This is why "escort missions" are some of the most loathed game mechanics in all games, because the AI is just too dumb to avoid being hit, and is for all intents a pincushion. If SE is listening, how about making high level monsters and humanoids try to dodge player AOE's? How about making pets/companions dodge AOE's?

C) The game is turned based for all it tries to hide it. It is not an Action RPG, it's more entertaining than say SW:TOR (which is turned based, but has a decent storyline, far less dumb companion AI, just boring gameplay), and has outlasted dozens of other MMORPG try-hards that have otherwise better action elements and next to nothing for story.

If the game seriously wanted healers to primarily DPS and only heal 17% of the time like someone earlier in one of the threads mockingly suggested, all the healing would be HoT, and you'd have far more combat tools. That is not the case, everything but Stone has some application in a group battle. In a solo battle, the effects of stone let you keep your distance from the target. Assize, Aero III, Holy are meant to be used for their effects on a group. Repose and Fluid Aura are meant to be used on single targets

Aero II+Aero +Fluid Aura (to knock back the target)+Repose to put them to sleep while the DoT's tick down. While it's asleep heal yourself. When the mob wakes up, hit them with stone to slow them down, and repeat. Do people play this way? Not really, they would rather just tank single mobs. When in group play, you can't use Fluid Aura because it makes the Tank mad having to chase things, and you can't use Repose because the DPS will just keep shooting anyway from auto-attack.

D) If your skills are tools in a toolbox, use the right tools. I reject the argument that "you're not using all the tools", some of these tools are not useful, and counter-productive outside of solo play. Other tools were clearly designed for dungeon play and have no practical use in solo play because there are no crowd-control situations where this is useful (like really, who spam's Holy at a single mob?) At the beginning of V2.0 people used to use sleep effects all the time (in fact the RMT bots were very fond of it on THM, and it was a tell for those) now I never seen anyone use it because as I mentioned above, people won't stop shooting things that are sleeping. More to the point, name a boss that this actually works on. No the entire point of sleep was so you could take down a single target in a multi-target situation while you have no AOE's. If we were really arguing that you should use every tool in the tool box, everyone would still be using sleep and repose as their first tool, not discarding it once they get an AOE attack.

E) The internet spoils everything. So instead of finding the best strategy by yourself through trial and error, or maybe experience from other combat in the game, everyone is all to quick to cite whatever BiS gear and min-max DPS rotation as suggested by the tutorial/video instead of maybe figuring out better solutions or maybe what the developer's intent was. They give you 90 minutes to do a dungeon for a reason. If you can complete it in 12, or solo, that's because you are WAY overgeared for it.

Which brings me to the reason I mentioned 8-mans earlier. For all intents, as the game progresses, people have found ways of skipping entire sections of the game, found ways to use emergent gameplay (like bringing mobs to the cannons, instead of fighting them where they spawn like the developers intended) and SE has said nothing about it. This is another variation where people do things because that's what experience with that duty calls for. I can't tell you how frequently back in V2.0 players would spam these things for tomes, and all the newbies got steamrolled over not knowing why we were running mob trains. But clearly Yoshi-P has a problem with healers being "forced to DPS when they want to heal" by players claiming that the game mechanics require them to. It does not, and it has never.

F) There are players who will refuse to DPS, point blank, because that is not what they signed up for, they signed up to heal, not be a third DPS. Let them play it that way, because again the game does not require that. If you are after the Savage content, you form your own static to play it, because you're not going to train a PUG party, and if you want to farm something out of it, you're going to get stuck training every party that somehow forms after 5 hours. The Savage content also doesn't require you to DPS as a healer, but good luck getting a party together since everyone wants to rush these dungeons instead of learn them. Are you saving 10 seconds, 10 minutes, 30 minutes if you DPS? Who cares, clearly there are people who take the game too seriously and would rather waste time arguing and re-queing than just rolling with what they get in a PUG.

G) There are also healer players who just jump into cleric stance and do nothing but DPS. That's what they do in 8/24 man content because they can get away with it. They can't get away with that in 4-man content, and will get called on it because that "cleric stance" indicator says they aren't healing efficiently or at all. In 8-man and 24 man content, you can just ignore that unless the the lack of healing is causing wipes. Because of the amount of time required to start a raid, people are more likely to put up with a bad healer than they are going to put up with a bad DPS carry.

H) If the player skill mechanics are going to change and be simplified, then all advice out there needs to be thrown away with it. I would not be surprised if they (SE) changed the game mechanics so that everything people learned up to now doesn't work anymore.

Just look at the Red Mage skills descriptions. You are going to be told to do combos to save up for bigger booms . It's very likely the "lilies" for WHM is the same thing. You will be needing to do a fair amount more healing and don't get to do any large DPS booms without it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

snip

---

I don't even know what you're trying to say in that convoluted post. Healer's operate on a simple priority system: Is healing needed? Yes→Heal / No→DPS. That's all there is to it.

This style of play is supported by game mechanics. Because healers have the most powerful heals, they should be the primary healers in the party. But because healing never requires 100% GCD use, those spare GCDs should be used on other useful things, such as DPS, because the goal of all fights in the game is to reduce enemy HP to 0%.

That being said, all decisions in battle operate on that same principle: "Is this the most efficient way of achieving our goal?" That's why people use cannons, don't use Repose, use Regen instead of Cure, DPS instead of standing idle, and so on.

Design intent of abilities is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is function, which forms the meta (most effective tactic available).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kitfox

snip

---

They've basically pointed out valid things. The people on this forums overreact to something that truly isn't a big deal. So much to the point they'd rather harass and/or kick the person for something so minor. Thank goodness this forum only represent a small percent of the actual community. Because it's getting childish how people are still arguing over this over discussed topic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 347SPECTRE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50kFN0bnXBQ

---

While I respect the skills of Xeno and the other people in the group, it's not relevant for this discussion. It was a challenge run (i.e. using unusual strat, gimping your group by bringing 8 tanks), only possible after overgearing and echo, and the healing checks in that fight was manageable even with 1 healer before echo (iirc it was solo healed by a JP healer a few weeks after release). The person I responded to said that tanks should do as much dmg as actual dps jobs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

You're just cherry picking the argument you want to fight. Look I'll summarize what has been said between the three threads in the general forum and the last 8 years of FFXIV:

A) The Healer is meant to heal, both Yoshi-P and the game's own storyline and even this Hall of the newbie that I didn't even know existed until someone mentioned it say this over and over again:

---

http://i.imgur.com/ZWw1pnc.jpg

You were saying?

The entire Conjurer storyline revolves around a character who only wants to heal before having it explained to her there is more to Conjury than merely healing.

Yoshi commented on his personal dislike of Cleric yet immediately followed up that statement by acknowledging a sizable portion of the playerbase likes the DPS meta. Regardless, what he prefers is wholly irrelevant when the actual game mechanics do not accommodate him. If they truly want healers to primarily heal then the onus shifts to the developers to make content where we don't have such significant amounts of downtime or have abilities with the insane potency most healing spells have. It isn't the player's fault for taking advantage of the systems made available.

For someone accusing another of cherry picking, you seem to have selective reading skills. How many times do people have to reiterate they have spent roughly 17% healing and 83% DPSing before you accept perhaps you don't actually appreciate the mechanics of a job you claim to know so well. I purposely emphasised my average duty finder rotation where I heal the tank with, you guessed it, HoTs and very little else. These are not premade groups nor Savage geared tanks. I have had all varieties and none have required even half my attention healing. Taika posted a video of the sheer inactivity she had without DPSing. Miste pointed out having never shared your supposed healer intensity despite being on the same server. Are all three of us extremely lucky or so exceptional we can perform feats no one else can?

Guess so, if we're to believe you. :p

Quote:

---

D) If your skills are tools in a toolbox, use the right tools. I reject the argument that "you're not using all the tools", some of these tools are not useful,

---

Reject them to your fancy. When you make ridiculous claims like single target nukes and DoTs (Stone III, Combust II) aren't worthwhile DPS. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. As for Holy... you're rambling again. No one even mentioned it nor the effectiveness of crowd control. That is yet another Strawman.

Quote:

---

E) They give you 90 minutes to do a dungeon for a reason. If you can complete it in 12, or solo, that's because you are WAY overgeared for it.

---

I did Xelphtol in under 20 minutes wearing Lore gear the day it released. And I did it in a pug. Tanks pulled the entire room without hesitation. Two brand new dungeons and their ilvls were set to gear outdated over a year prior. Once again, it isn't the players but the game itself allowing us to overgear supposedly new content by default.

Quote:

---

Which brings me to the reason I mentioned 8-mans earlier. For all intents, as the game progresses, people have found ways of skipping entire sections of the game, found ways to use emergent gameplay (like bringing mobs to the cannons, instead of fighting them where they spawn like the developers intended) and SE has said nothing about it. This is another variation where people do things because that's what experience with that duty calls for. I can't tell you how frequently back in V2.0 players would spam these things for tomes, and all the newbies got steamrolled over not knowing why we were running mob trains. But clearly Yoshi-P has a problem with healers being "forced to DPS when they want to heal" by players claiming that the game mechanics require them to. It does not, and it has never.

---

I am going to quote this in its entirety because... what the hell does it have to do with anything? Seriously. Are you being paid per word or something? This neither contributes or references anything anyone has brought up. You're simply off on some odd tangent. The discussion pertained to Healers not being idle and veered towards the sheer lack of healing required in most content. Let's stick to what's relevant, okay?

Quote:

---

F) Let them play it that way, because again the game does not require that.

---

Does this apply to tanks and DPS do? You won't complain about an Ice Mage or a tank that doesn't use CDs, right? After all, by your own admission, dungeons are set to 90 minutes. Therefore, the developers are okay with any clear within that timeframe no matter how slow. Just looking for some consistency.

Quote:

---

G) They can't get away with that in 4-man content,

---

Now I legitimately wonder if you're being willfully obtuse or are just dense. You have what, ten people posting their experiences in random PUG duty finder where they scarcely heal... and you're still clinging to the notion healers simply can't spend all this time in Cleric? I almost want to applaud the stubbornness. I suppose everyone was just lying then? Or perhaps you cannot heal that efficiently and instead of asking for advice you're lashing out against better players.

Quote:

---

H) I would not be surprised if they (SE) changed the game mechanics so that everything people learned up to now doesn't work anymore.

---

Despite my steadfast support for healer DPS, I welcome more dedicated healer checks and less DPS uptime because the argument has never been about damage over healing but the idea to Always. Be. Casting. Increased healing requirements accomplishes that. Alas, until the devs stop making faceroll level content outside 24s, EX and Savage, this debate will never die.

Quote:

---

Just look at the Red Mage skills descriptions. You are going to be told to do combos to save up for bigger booms . It's very likely the "lilies" for WHM is the same thing. You will be needing to do a fair amount more healing and don't get to do any large DPS booms without it.

---

Forcing unnecessarily healing just to trigger White Mage's new mechanics will only kill the job. Look no further than how significantly Paladin suffered due to the sheer amount of magic based bosses. I, again, find it amusing you previous whined about overhealing yet not speculate White Mage will get a mechanic that literally forces them to overheal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaisinel

I find myself in duty finder quite a bit, and I barely see people even ask Healers to dps.

---

Difference is the data center. I know I run into it all the time: Had a Dun Scaith run go south cause my party kept yelling at the healers to dps at Hollow. I wound up just sitting in a corner and watching as everyone died.

I really do hate clerics stance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Difference is the data center. I know I run into it all the time: Had a Dun Scaith run go south cause my party kept yelling at the healers to dps at Hollow. I wound up just sitting in a corner and watching as everyone died.

I really do hate clerics stance.

---

Another case of "someone hurt your feelings"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

The entire Conjurer storyline revolves around a character who only wants to heal before having it explained to her there is more to Conjury than merely healing.

---

It evolved around Sylphie that her healing, while powerful, was sapping her own life force for it (and which got her mother killed in the first place), instead of asking the elements for their guidance and use them as her source of power.
While I don't understand how making a connection to the elements suddenly stop draining your own life in healing, Scholars and Astrologians don't even mention the elements and instead draw on their own 'source' to heal, kind of making the said Conjurer 'lesson' fall flat from the lore perspective.

If Sylphie's power didn't had that drawback in the first place, no one would've given a hoot about her pacifist approach.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

A) The Healer is meant to heal, both Yoshi-P and the game's own storyline and even this Hall of the newbie that I didn't even know existed until someone mentioned it say this over and over again

---

You're arguing that the way the game should be played is defined by what developers and in game texts say. But how the game is actually played is defined by how the jobs work in the game, what abilities they have, how battles are designed and so on. If Yoshi P would say "it's ok to just sing as Bard and not do any DPS", no one would follow that (or, if they would, they would be quickly removed from groups). What developers or in game text say does not directly affect the gameplay. Only gameplay design does, so only that is relevant to the argument.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

B) The game does not do a good job with it's AI companions, not only can you not "party" them, or other players pets, for the purposes of the tutorial, the game does something that you tend to only see in F.A.T.E's

---

I don't see how this has anything to do with the discussion?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

C) The game is turned based for all it tries to hide it. It is not an Action RPG, it's more entertaining than say SW:TOR (which is turned based, but has a decent storyline, far less dumb companion AI, just boring gameplay), and has outlasted dozens of other MMORPG try-hards that have otherwise better action elements and next to nothing for story.

---

Same than before: how is this relevant to the discussion or your argument?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

If the game seriously wanted healers to primarily DPS and only heal 17% of the time like someone earlier in one of the threads mockingly suggested, all the healing would be HoT, and you'd have far more combat tools.

---

The better (more effective and optimal) a healer is, the less time they will spend healing. The "issue" in game design is, even with less skillful healer play you aren't required to heal for even 40% of time in most instances.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Aero II+Aero +Fluid Aura (to knock back the target)+Repose to put them to sleep while the DoT's tick down. While it's asleep heal yourself. When the mob wakes up, hit them with stone to slow them down, and repeat. Do people play this way? Not really, they would rather just tank single mobs. When in group play, you can't use Fluid Aura because it makes the Tank mad having to chase things, and you can't use Repose because the DPS will just keep shooting anyway from auto-attack.

---

Again no idea what you're trying to say here and how this would support your argument.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

D) If your skills are tools in a toolbox, use the right tools.

---

This phrase is correct. Healers should always use the "tool" (skill or skill combination) that is the most beneficial and effective in each situation. When the party members don't need healing or shielding, your most useful tool is a DPS spell.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

I reject the argument that "you're not using all the tools", some of these tools are not useful, and counter-productive outside of solo play.

---

If you're flat out refusing to use your DPS abilities, you are literally not using all the tools available to you, and there's no way you can reject that, since it's the objective truth. :D It's also very different to not use certain ability because it's not useful (like Repose in 99.99% of situations) or because you don't want to (even when it would be useful). The argument is: a healer should use all of their useful abilities to support their group in most beneficial way in each situation. You're trying to twist it to something different.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

E) The internet spoils everything. So instead of finding the best strategy by yourself through trial and error, or maybe experience from other combat in the game, everyone is all to quick to cite whatever BiS gear and min-max DPS rotation as suggested by the tutorial/video instead of maybe figuring out better solutions or maybe what the developer's intent was. They give you 90 minutes to do a dungeon for a reason. If you can complete it in 12, or solo, that's because you are WAY overgeared for it.

---

Alright so you're going all the way with this "developer intention playstyle" argument. I can appreciate that. But good luck trying to convince the playerbase that they're "playing wrong" if they're not hitting item level sync for every instance they do, or leaving dungeons before 89 minutes have passed. :D Seriously though, you do realise it's the developers who are releasing these instances (everything else but Savage) intentionally when basically all the players are already overgeared for them?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

But clearly Yoshi-P has a problem with healers being "forced to DPS when they want to heal" by players claiming that the game mechanics require them to. It does not, and it has never.

---

Again, the argument isn't that "the game requires healers to DPS". (Although it does, in situations like Antitower boss dolls when the DDs are bound and the healer and tank will have to DPS to release them.) The argument is: "when a healer is only healing, they will have a lot downtime in most of the content, and as this downtime can be used to support their party with powerful DPS, they should do it". To put it short: "you can be useful instead of being useless, so please kindly do so".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

F) There are players who will refuse to DPS, point blank, because that is not what they signed up for, they signed up to heal, not be a third DPS.

---

Truthfully, they signed up to play WHM, SCH or AST. And DPS is a part of playing each of those jobs in this game. A BRD can't sign up to only DPS or only sing either. An off tank can't just stand in the corner and watch others kill stuff while there's nothing for them to tank. All jobs are expected to use all of their useful abilities.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

G) There are also healer players who just jump into cleric stance and do nothing but DPS. That's what they do in 8/24 man content because they can get away with it. They can't get away with that in 4-man content, and will get called on it because that "cleric stance" indicator says they aren't healing efficiently or at all. In 8-man and 24 man content, you can just ignore that unless the the lack of healing is causing wipes.

---

If no one dies because of the lack of healing, these healers are being the most useful to the group they can. When there are 2 healers in the group, you see both using Cleric Stance from time to time, and no one dies, that is a sign of effective healing and healer play.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ralts

Another case of "someone hurt your feelings"

---

You'll have to explain to me how other dps bitching at healers to dps would hurt a DPS' feelings. Go ahead, take your time, I'll be waiting. <3

I am going to be honest. I spend the majority of my time dpsing in dungeons as a SCH. Sometimes I make it a goal to not toss out a heal the entire time (not counting pet lol).

However I have no problem with healers who don't dps and people who do need to grow up or take therapy for their OCD. Their was a time though where the healer wouldn't dps and the two brds were putting in the shittiest numbers I have ever seen and neither played songs. That was probably the worst run ever and I got no commends even though I did most the work.

Wow, props to people still arguing with Kisai.

I consider them a lost case not worth arguing with.

On a sidenote: How do you play a game for years (since 1.0)and still only have il 180 gear?
This person has basically seen NOTHING relevant of heavensward and yet is proudly sporting how to play a healer without having any clue on how its done.

Tbh, I still think its a troll posting with an alt.

That's why tank and healer ques are so long. Easier and peaceful being a pure dps class

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Faliandra

Tbh, I still think its a troll posting with an alt.

---

At this point, I am praying you correct because the alternative is terrifying.

Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunnin...3Kruger_effect

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

You'll have to explain to me how other dps bitching at healers to dps would hurt a DPS' feelings. Go ahead, take your time, I'll be waiting. <3

---

Figure it out yourself

I think this is a really difficult topic because of how much everything is generalized.
We really need to differentiate:
24p content:
- Off Tank not going into DPS Stance because "later an add will spawn" -> Is not really okay
- Off Tank being autohit afk -> Is really not okay
- Main tank beeing full time Tank stance -> Fully okay
- Main tank switching stances because he knows the fight / dmg spikes well -> Very much okay, would def. get my recommendation
- Heal only healing -> Fully okay, its 24p content, there are countless idiots around, sometimes requiring immidiate heals
- Heal dps'ing -> Quite nice, extra dps, more dmg, less time to finish
- Heal beeing semi-afk, only doing a cure or so every 20 seconds -> Totally not okay


4p content:
- High Equipped Tank beeing full time Tank stance -> okay, aggro is more important than dmg, but extra dps would be nice nontheless
- Low Equipped Tank beeing full time Tank stance -> Fully okay, you are undergeared, better keep your aggro
- Heal only healing -> well, if he wants to be bored, thats allright
- Heal dps'ing -> Quite nice, extra dps, more dmg, less time to finish
- Heal beeing semi-afk, only doing a cure or so every 40 seconds -> Totally not okay

8p content: [Can't talk too much about HW content, as i have yet to tackle it]
Back in the days of Coil you had your group of people and strived for maximum effincy. Any problems here are irrelevant as your
static should decide how things get handled. Don't project your strats on the majority.
However, most people say normal Alex is so easy -> No Dps from tanks / heals shouldnt be a problem then.
Savage Alex is harder-> Same thing as Coil Static applies.

Please keep in mind this is how i feel about it. Some things tanks and heals do are not okay, but please, dont just project some things on the broad masses, and don't forget most things
do not justify a kick.
And afk heal who doesnt even really heal is not okay, but you shouldnt be kicking a heal either just because he doesnt use cleric stance and extra dps in 4 / 24p content.
Also, as someone allready mentioned earlier, a lot of DPS players get free passes because accusing someone of not doign any dmg if they are playing a dps class is prohibited,
but talking badly at tanks & heals is nearly always okay.

I for one have and will always call out auto hit afk people in 24p content and warn them whenever i encounter them. Tanks taking over aggro just so they can do 1 hate rota and
then go afk are NOT okay. Healers just doing some aoe heals every 30 seconds are NOT okay. But neither are Dragoons just standing around auto hitting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rasylia

I think this is a really difficult topic because of how much everything is generalized.

---

Honestly? We can break it down succinctly by simply saying: "Always. Be. Casting."

Very few people will respond negatively to healers who don't pull OMG amazing numbers. I'll generally give my comm to healers who try DPSing without Cleric just to encourage them a bit more. Likewise, I don't mind a wipe from a healer or tank experimenting. They're trying, which is all I ask. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Honestly? We can break it down succinctly by simply saying: "Always. Be. Casting."

Very few people will respond negatively to healers who don't pull OMG amazing numbers. I'll generally give my comm to healers who try DPSing without Cleric just to encourage them a bit more. Likewise, I don't mind a wipe from a healer or tank experimenting. They're trying, which is all I ask. :)

---

Let's be real here for a second, when you have 6 tanks, 6 heals, and 12 Dps... if those 6 heals only heal, its going to be less of a dps loss compared to when those 12 Dps just do jack shit.
And, if you do any 24p content today - guess who is doing less of a job.
Sure thing, the healer's dps would be good to finish the encounters faster, but the dps-players actually trying to hand out dps would increase the speed way more.

Also, you not minding a wipe because tanks / heals tried handing out dps? I believe you. But what do you think how the other 22 people think about that. The rage and blame after a wipe at the sphere in the city of tears is insane.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rasylia

Sure thing, the healer's dps would be good to finish the encounters faster, but the dps-players actually trying to hand out dps would increase the speed way more.

---

Those things aren't mutually exclusive. Everybody should play their best.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kitfox

Those things aren't mutually exclusive. Everybody should play their best.

---

Correct me if i am wrong, but at release, and if played with normal (low) Itemlevel, both, the 4p and 24p content was at least somewhat challenging, right? I've heard stories about for example City of Tears where you weren't able to finish it in 90 minutes.

Now, the more itemlevel people have, the easier the dungeon gets, right?
Less Tanking required -> Tanks should dps more
Less Healing requires -> Heals should dps more
Same Dmg required, but more itemlevel -> Dps players can do the same thing as always - damage.
But, since you have more health, more dmg, and less risks, dps classes don't actually need to do the same stuff as before.
Also, tanks and heals are dps-ing too now, right? No need to concentrate on anything.

Edit:

Point is: If everyone would do the same things they've done at the start, it wouldn't require anyone to actually do something extra.
More itemlevel: More health, more healing, more dmg.
Aka -> Just by increasing itemlevel you allready do more dmg by just tanking and just doing your usual dps stuff.
But, while dps classes tend to not put the same amount of effort into it as at release, tanks and heals are now blamed for not "doing their best".

Yes of course it should be mutual. Reality just tends to differ.

As long as the party isn't dying I don't care what the healers do. As long as the tank is holding aggro and keeping the mob standing still as much as possible, I don't care what they do. IMO, the "healers and tanks NEED, key word need, to dps" mentality spawns from the raid community and spreads to every other part of the community. Since raiders are trying to clear everything as quick as possible and being unwilling to wait to get better gear to get better dps from their dps, they make the healers and tanks try to dps as much as possible as well. This mentality spreads to the rest of the community in much the same way the "PLDs and MNKs are useless and should be deleted from the game" mentality spread.

Some people don't care about speed running everything in the game. They come home from a long day at work and log in looking to relax and maybe get a few things done before time for bed. This is a video game, not a job or a competitive sport. People don't need to always operate at 110% in every aspect of this game, raiding / pvp excluded, maybe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rasylia

Let's be real here for a second, when you have 6 tanks, 6 heals, and 12 Dps... if those 6 heals only heal, its going to be less of a dps loss compared to when those 12 Dps just do jack shit.
And, if you do any 24p content today - guess who is doing less of a job.
Sure thing, the healer's dps would be good to finish the encounters faster, but the dps-players actually trying to hand out dps would increase the speed way more.

Also, you not minding a wipe because tanks / heals tried handing out dps? I believe you. But what do you think how the other 22 people think about that. The rage and blame after a wipe at the sphere in the city of tears is insane.

---

You don't practice stance dancing in 24-man raids though. I first got the hang of dropping Grit while main tanking through dungeons and normal mode trials. Likewise, I didn't start off the aggressive healer I am now. As for the rest, why is the comparison DPS not well, DPSing when the point made was no one, regardless of their role, should be entirely stationary? Even small contributions from an Aero III or an Combust II how and again is something. I just cannot understand how one role can literally do nothing and people defend it. This has nothing to do with kicking or whatnot, just the idea itself. That standard isn't exclusive to healers either. Everyone should be trying to evenly contribute.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kitfox

Those things aren't mutually exclusive. Everybody should play their best.

---

Well this game is heavily geared towards casuals and casuals usually just want to log on have some fun and not be judged how well they playing. There are times they they do strive for the best but not going to be all the time like some people want.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

You don't practice stance dancing in 24-man raids though. I first got the hang of dropping Grit while main tanking through dungeons and normal mode trials. Likewise, I didn't start off the aggressive healer I am now. As for the rest, why is the comparison DPS not well, DPSing when the point made was no one, regardless of their role, should be entirely stationary. Even small contributions from an Aero III or an Combust II how and again is something. I just cannot understand how one role can literally do nothing and people defend it. This has nothing to do with kicking or whatnot, just the idea itself. That standard isn't exclusive to healers either. Everyone should be trying to evenly contribute.

---

I'm really not sure when you got the idea that i am defending people to only stick to one role.

I agree with nearly everthing you say.

You pass the content early on with low ilvl and people sticking to their role, and as time goes by you gain more ilvl and get more powerfull.
This usually turns dps into lazy fucks and tanks/heals into "have to dps or they are not playing their char correctly" players.

Again, point was simply this: If everyone keeps doing their initial job (tanks tanking, heals healing, dps dps-ing) you will allready finish dungeons and raids faster because of higher ilvl.
If now the Tanks and healers increase the dps by stance dancing, its a welcome extra. But, for everything besides 8p content it should never be mandatory.

Regarding Dps players and why its bad to call out dps players for bad damage: Its prohibited. Its discriminating, its bad. I remember some interview 2 years ago where they talked about it. Thats why parsing is banned, no?
BUT since you can literally see when a tank or heal stance dances (or doesnt) you can easily tell if he tried to maximize dps or not. And since you don't need parser for that, its okay. I mean, you only call him out for stance dancing, and not for having bad dps, so its not banned, right?

Please understand that i am totally on your side, up to a certain extent. 8p content shouldn't be counted in, because usually static etc. Everything else should of course be played as good as you can. HOWEVER since dps players (usually) tend to get lazy, because easy content, no need to avoid aoe balblablub the focus always lies on tanks and heals.

Yes, all roles should be played as good as you can. Yes, stance dancing can be helpfull in increasing your effincy. No, no tank or heal should be ever kicked for not doing it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rasylia

But, while dps classes tend to not put the same amount of effort into it as at release, tanks and heals are now blamed for not "doing their best".

---

Speculation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kitfox

Speculation.

---

Exactly. Since we have no way of proving (we are not allowed to measure dps) we blame the ones we can blame, since we can observe them -> Tanks and Heals.

Also, since you call it Speculation: Join any 24p raid of your likings as heal and observe the Dps-Classes. Auto hit dragoon, Fire Fire Ice Fire Fire Ice Blm, [...]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Everyone should be trying to evenly contribute.

---

While I agree that everyone should be trying their best to contribute, this concept doesn't even work in real life yet alone online games and is overall naive. "best" is subjective anyway, to some healers keeping people at full health, no party member deaths, keeping up a large mp pool for emergencies, etc... is what they think is "best" and that means being ready to heal at any given moment which may include standing around waiting for that moment. They don't even include DPS into their thought process for "best" as a healer or tank. This in large part just doesn't work for dungeon content which is where we see most of the clashing about cause dungeons are... well just too easy to even worry about those kinds of things.

Hope you don't think I'm attacking you cause I'm not. I've just come to accept things as they are I guess...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rasylia

Exactly. Since we have no way of proving (we are not allowed to measure dps) we blame the ones we can blame, since we can observe them -> Tanks and Heals.[...]

---

Speak for yourself. My impression of wipes in 24-mans and over the course of 130+ Zurvan Ex kills on top of all the "failed-soar-let's-disband" parties is that DPS are blamed for failing DPS checks far more often than tanks and healers are. Personally, I try not to point blame without evidence either way.

It is true though that in high level parties healer/tank dps is the easiest reserve to tap into because the assumption is that all DPS are already performing at 100% output while tanks and healers might be keeping a safety margin, sometimes for good reasons. You can't tell DPS to push harder when they're already at max, but you can push healers and tanks to reduce safety margin and increase output, assuming it's not already maxed, and it rarely is if we're not talking about speed kills.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

snip

---

That's..not the conjurer story..don't take a screenshot out of context and use that to try to turn the story into something else lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seoulstar

That's..not the conjurer story..don't take a screenshot out of context and use that to try to turn the story into something else lol

---

Kind of hard when it's the only scrap of evidence that supports their claim, even if it's provably false and misrepresentation of the story line.