PSA - Cleric Stance and vote kicking

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Originally Posted by AsahinaMyLove

I dont care about that changes. lol

I still WONT dps when I play as HEALER in dungeons groups!

Why people think healer classes have to do 2 jobs and tank and dps classes only do 1 job..?

Once DPS's or Tanks has the same healspells healer has, only then I will DPS as healer in groups too! o_o

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so like do you just over heal and stare at the wall half the dungeon when there is literally nothing to heal? 0.o

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Originally Posted by Averax

Actually, tanks have to fulfill two roles in larger group content too. Main tank, generates aggro. Off tank, DPS.

And BRD and MCH have secondary roles as well, providing support. Summoners are like the designated rez to save the healers MP.

If you want to be lazy and stand there waiting for damage, and make your runs take longer, by all means do it. But don't expect people to just put up with it because you're too stubborn to press an extra couple buttons in your downtime. If kicks come your way, you have nobody to blame but yourself.

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Slightly longer..it's only slightly longer. If anything, they should just focus on the healer keeping them alive. Not really care if they dps or not. And if we're going to talk about stubbornness. Let's talk about the people that are too stubborn to understand that a healer dpsing isn't really a huge deal. No matter how many times it's stated, people are too stubborn to just understand it and leave it be.

Maybe some healers not DPSing as much as you would like, are not confident at DPSing while keeping the party alive? A lot of tanks that rush into every group before the boss room are severely undergeared and take a lot of healing. Before you blame the healer PAY ATTENTION FFS! Too many people don't pay attention to what is happening around them.

PAY ATTENTION!

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Originally Posted by AsahinaMyLove

I dont care about that changes. lol

I still WONT dps when I play as HEALER in dungeons groups!

Why people think healer classes have to do 2 jobs and tank and dps classes only do 1 job..?

Once DPS's or Tanks has the same healspells healer has, only then I will DPS as healer in groups too! o_o

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Paladin has Clemency. Red Mage has its own Cure.

Checkmate.

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Originally Posted by ErryK

Paladin has Clemency. Red Mage has its own Cure.

Checkmate.

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dont forget war's equilibrium.

or all the DPS's second wind (not that strong,but it helps)

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Originally Posted by Averax

Actually, tanks have to fulfill two roles in larger group content too. Main tank, generates aggro. Off tank, DPS.

And BRD and MCH have secondary roles as well, providing support. Summoners are like the designated rez to save the healers MP.

If you want to be lazy and stand there waiting for damage, and make your runs take longer, by all means do it. But don't expect people to just put up with it because you're too stubborn to press an extra couple buttons in your downtime. If kicks come your way, you have nobody to blame but yourself.

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I think its more that people who chose to play healers want the focus of their gameplay to be on healing and not have it be something distracting that gets in the way of their mediocre dps rotation. The base mechanics and structure of healing in FF14 is broken and as a result your very likely to have exactly the same balance issues that happened in HW happen again. Frankly its a problem that healers have so much damn downtime, even on new content.

That is a design issue. Imagine if you only had 5 seconds in every 20 to actually dps a boss and the rest of the time you had to run backwards and forwards across a room clicking on the same two levers one after the other. That is basically what healing is becoming like. Its the reason I don't like the cleric stance removal. It at least created a sense of risk to going and running the levers(the couple of dps buttons you repetitively mash on as a healer). Now its just going to be completely monotonous when I don't actually have something to heal.

Also rubbish that DPS have two roles. They have a few utility skills that are sometimes used on the side of their actual job and most of those utilities that don't actually help with dps are not considered very valuable by most. Just look at Mantra, the strongest group healing buff a non healer could have and apparently not worth enough for people to count it as a utility when talking about MNK. I am lucky if I meet one SMN a month who actually remembers they have virus or Eye for an Eye and many BRDs don't bother to use their songs beyond Foes.

People play as healers because they want a different type of gameplay to being a dps, not because they want to be a low damage support dps. Yeah I get people get annoyed at healers who just stand there (I don't cause I would fall to sleep with nothing to do) but the flipside is they play healers to heal and if the game design isn't accommodating that then there is a question as to wether the game design is letting them down. Maybe a better question is why they have so little to heal in the first place that they spend so much time standing around.

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

Maybe some healers not DPSing as much as you would like, are not confident at DPSing while keeping the party alive? A lot of tanks that rush into every group before the boss room are severely undergeared and take a lot of healing. Before you blame the healer PAY ATTENTION FFS! Too many people don't pay attention to what is happening around them.

PAY ATTENTION!

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Trust me, I get that. But its not going to be as terrifying as it used to be. You no longer have to cripple your healing ability. DPS as a healer will soon be the difference between hitting cure and hitting stone. Is your tank dying too fast to hit any button other than cure, then just hit cure. Doeant need cure in the next couple seconds, hit stone. I promise, its getting better.

Anytime I do roulettes I spend 80% of my time healing. I'm not standing around doing nothing. I've been told that I play with "bad" players or "average" players. Well, the majority of people who play this game ARE AVERAGE! Your average player isn't very skilled. They just want to play the game and cruise along without a care in the world.

Unfortunately, there are a few average players also seem to think they're better than they ACTUALLY are, so they like to pass the blame if something goes badly. Someone dies because they took AOE to the face or weren't using cooldowns effectively and we get, "OMG STUPID HEALER STOP DPSING AND DO YOUR JOB!!!! GOD!"

However I do believe with the changes to Cleric Stance there is no reason to not try and throw out some DPS as a healer. Weaving in damage with heals will be less stressful now that we don't have to worry about Cleric Stance not dropping when you've hit the correct hot key.

Okay healers, I am sorry! I use to be on your side about not having to DPS because we are healers but my main reason for it is because I switch to DPS stance and by the time I go to cast a DPS spell the tank or someone else is like dying so I have to jump back and forth back and forth! NOW! I can freely heal and DPS! Soooo yeah....we have to DPS now fellow healers :3 but it will be fun and not as stressful

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

I wouldn't be very surprised if it eventually becomes a better idea to just remove the healer role as a dedicated one, and treat it like our "support" style of jobs lol. I get a lot of people that stress the importance of the DPS part of healers would be upset by the title change, but if it's currently not even common to heal much, I doubt there'd be a huge impact on how they play anyway. Or maybe not go that far and take advantage of a smart healing system, since we kind of already have that with the fairies anyway, but where damage = heals. Have a couple heal spells available to use when needed.

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Honestly, if they did that... I would quit the game. I doubt they would though, thankfully.

I do, however, think it is possible for them to "fix" the issue of healers having nothing to do. All they have to do is 1) provide more damage to heal through and 2) give healers a few more buff/utility/interest skills to occupy their time in between. Really #1 is the most critical.

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Originally Posted by LadyAveria

Okay healers, I am sorry! I use to be on your side about not having to DPS because we are healers but my main reason for it is because I switch to DPS stance and by the time I go to cast a DPS spell the tank or someone else is like dying so I have to jump back and forth back and forth! NOW! I can freely heal and DPS! Soooo yeah....we have to DPS now fellow healers :3 but it will be fun and not as stressful

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Explain to me how maintaining two dots and spamming one spell over and over again is fun.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

Honestly, if they did that... I would quit the game. I doubt they would though, thankfully.

I do, however, think it is possible for them to "fix" the issue of healers having nothing to do. All they have to do is 1) provide more damage to heal through and 2) give healers a few more buff/utility/interest skills to occupy their time in between. Really #1 is the most critical.

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I wouldn't quit the game but I would be rather pissed off. That said they haven't really figured out healers yet.

I don't think the solution is just more damage. As unpopular as it is I think they need to nerf the potency of healing in FF14. You can heal people to full way too quickly. My whole party can be on 15% health and I can have them all full in 2-3 GCDs without breaking a sweat. Give enough time and my AoE hot will do it all on its own. Healing in FF14 is ridiculously strong and that is a problem because healing has a cap, or quota, that you need to heal. The more powerful your heals the quicker you reach that quota and the more time you have nothing to do.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Explain to me how maintaining two dots and spamming one spell over and over again is fun.

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More fun than spamming Cure II at 90% HP.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Explain to me how maintaining two dots and spamming one spell over and over again is fun.

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You haven't even played the 4.0 healer classes yet. But whatever, you guys be as negative about it as you wanna be. I'm pretty sure a half to one year of testing can make a team confident about their decisions.

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Originally Posted by ErryK

More fun than spamming Cure II at 90% HP.

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So what your saying is the gameplay design of healers is bad? They should have more engaging healing gameplay? I agree with you.

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Originally Posted by Ralts

You haven't even played the 4.0 healer classes yet. But whatever, you guys be as negative about it as you wanna be. I'm pretty sure a half to one year of testing can make a team confident about their decisions.

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Like in HW with the balance mess that was AST? I am being negative because I watched a 4 hour live letter and read the translations on every spell shown and it very much discouraged me. Don't get me wrong. I love what they have done with a lot of the other Jobs and SB looks gorgeous. The PvP changes I think will be a real win. I love the flashiness and the theme and I am very excited for SB but the fact that dpsing is such a massive part of being a healer that you have threads like this shows an issue. I have felt they have had issue with the Healing meta for a while now and part of their reason for not adding another healer was balance. Then we see this which doesn't seem to be really addressing those core issues that lead to the problem in the first place. This is the only MMO I have ever played where this has been such a present issue.

The fact that healers have so much downtime that they are expected to be dpsing is an issue on two fronts. Firstly they clearly don't have enough to heal and secondly their dps rotations are exceptionally boring. I have seen nothing in this live letter to address those issues and it concerns me.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Explain to me how maintaining two dots and spamming one spell over and over again is fun.

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As the person above me posted, if you are enjoying just spamming cure II when they don't need it just so you can I don't know...do a stupid emote dance or something then I have no issue with people saying you suck and should DPS if the stance dance is removed >.> like seriously. You are assuming way too much to begin with, we already know the spells are getting revamped and I have no idea what these lilies are in the liveletter but they apparently can buff people so IF that is the case, healing, managing DPS and this Lilly system, you should have more than enough to keep things interesting. I just don't want to be in two different freaking stances to do it which I am getting! I am onnnnnne happy healer! :D

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Originally Posted by AsahinaMyLove

I still WONT dps when I play as HEALER in dungeons groups!

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Poor Assize and the FILTHY dps it does.

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Originally Posted by LadyAveria

As the person above me posted, if you are enjoying just spamming cure II when they don't need it just so you can I don't know...do a stupid emote dance or something then I have no issue with people saying you suck and should DPS if the stance dance is removed >.> like seriously. You are assuming way too much to begin with, we already know the spells are getting revamped and I have no idea what these lilies are in the liveletter but they apparently can buff people so IF that is the case, healing, managing DPS and this Lilly system, you should have more than enough to keep things interesting. I just don't want to be in two different freaking stances to do it which I am getting! I am onnnnnne happy healer! :D

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As I said, I watched the live letter and read everything I could on what spells their were. I am not saying that I don't dps as a Healer. I do. Infact I preferred dpsing with Cleric stance because it actually added a risk mechanic to the gameplay which is now gone and leaves me with just the three button rotation. It is three by the way. Aero and Aero 2 got merged and Stone 3 became Stone 4. New upgraded versions replace the old ones. As for the Lilly they empower healing spells and allow us to cast a barrier. We get the lillies from casting Cure spells and healer cds it seems. They specifically said the focus with WHM was on it being a pure healer.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

I don't think the solution is just more damage. As unpopular as it is I think they need to nerf the potency of healing in FF14. You can heal people to full way too quickly.

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That would be fine, too, and I agree. But if they don't increase the frequency of damage, you will still end up with lots of downtime. Regardless though, I agree that heals are too strong.

Thank you for clarifying the lilly system ^+^ I understand you wanting the risk mechanic but if you broaden the picture a lot of healers including myself just decide not to DPS because switching between stances all the time is quite tedious for us and we feel like it is just stupid. I found everytime I wanted to change stance and do a little bit of damage, I look in my party list and someone is hurting real bad so now I have to wait 5 seconds for the cooldown to switch back to healing to hopefully get to them in time, it is very annoying for me on all healer jobs. I don't expect DPS jobs to know their rotation 100% and do the best possible damage or tanks to hold agro 100% of the time and I also don't expect healers to suddenly become solely DPS jobs even when the stance is removed. It is just a nice feature for us healers that want to do damage and not worry about being screamed at because the cooldown on our stance keeps us from healing someone and they die. ^+^

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Originally Posted by UNDEAD10000

When cleric stance is getting removed from 4.0 and mind effects on healers dps, does this mean healers are not allowed to focus more on healing anymore, instead main focus is dps now in dungeons, trials and raids?

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It's up to the healer, but those that choose not to DPS at all are going to be meeting criticism from some players who don't understand (this includes me as well. I just don't get it) why a healer isn't doing any DPS spells when no one is in danger of dying (over healing is just wasting MP and generates unnecessary enmity and standing around doing nothing kinda makes the healer look lazy). Cleric Stance is now just going to be a damage dealing buff that doesn't affect your healing abilities at all.

Some people who play healers are also disabled and choose healing because it is a less intensive job than most DPS jobs (I know a couple people like this. They stick to healing or Tank jobs because they're easier to manage.) We should be mindful that there are players who aren't going to be able to perform at "100% capacity" for various reasons, and since dungeons are not really progression or hardcore content, as players I think it would behoove us to not immediately start screaming at people for "not doing their job".

Now if someone puts themselves into progression endgame content (8 man raids, EX Primals, etc.) - then that's a definite time for scrutiny. You should be doing your best in those situations.

But just because they're not assisting in speeding a dungeon run up by 5 minutes is no reason to be a jerk.

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Originally Posted by ColorOfSakura

I think it would behoove us to not immediately start screaming at people for "not doing their job".

Now if someone puts themselves into progression endgame content (8 man raids, EX Primals, etc.) - then that's a definite time for scrutiny. You should be doing your best in those situations.

But just because they're not assisting in speeding a dungeon run up by 5 minutes is no reason to be a jerk.

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You brought up so many good points, I think it is sad that people criticize when they are doing roulettes and your typical dungeons, Hell even unsynced ARR primal extremes. I think it is important to always play what you are comfortable with :D The only people I feel have the right to be a bit more direct are static groups trying to clear like savage because come on...if you are in a static you should know the people well enough not to take it to heart :3

I suck healing, but I'm not going to DPS unless I feel like I'm just standing there, everything I do will be an action rather healing when I feel there is a big threat or dpsing when things are kinda easy and laid back.

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Originally Posted by ColorOfSakura

Some people who play healers are also disabled and choose healing because it is a less intensive job than most DPS jobs (I know a couple people like this. We should be mindful that there are players who aren't going to be able to perform at "100% capacity".

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The change to cleric will benefit your friend. The revamp to cleric stance is a huge stress relief for any healer that had reservations about it before. All I expect from this change is to see more people trying to rotate in a little dps with their heals. As I've said before I'm not a savage raider or anything close to it and I'm not expecting flawless rotations from anyone. But if everyone is healthy please feel free to throw some stones/stardust/diseases on the mobs around us. Everyone will appreciate it. The only healer I'm likely to kick from my groups are 1)Extremely rude or abrasive folks. 2)The ones that cast a heal every ten seconds and spend the rest of the time staring at the wall.

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Originally Posted by joshdavis271

I suck healing, but I'm not going to DPS unless I feel like I'm just standing there, everything I do will be an action rather healing when I feel there is a big threat or dpsing when things are kinda easy and laid back.

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Perfect! That's how I started actually. Nobody told me while I was leveling that folks expected me to DPS so coming from WoW I just healed...and figured out pretty quick that I spent a lot of time doing nothing. Since I lag quite often (used to be worse prior to the server move) I started working in DPS without cleric stance. Then slowly I started using cleric stance more and more. With the upcoming changes there's never been a better time to get comfy with slowly working in DPS.

With these new changes making mnd increase your dmg you literally have no excuse to not be dpsing when there isn't a need for healing, you either work or you get removed it's that simple, and these changes heavily reinforce that.

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

With these new changes making mnd increase your dmg you literally have no excuse to not be dpsing when there isn't a need for healing, you either work or you get removed it's that simple, and these changes heavily reinforce that.

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Exactly, there should be not standing there and derping when you need to perform something rather it be healing or attacking, the stone spells are not there to make your hotbar look pretty.

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Originally Posted by LadyAveria

Thank you for clarifying the lilly system ^+^ I understand you wanting the risk mechanic but if you broaden the picture a lot of healers including myself just decide not to DPS because switching between stances all the time is quite tedious for us and we feel like it is just stupid. I found everytime I wanted to change stance and do a little bit of damage, I look in my party list and someone is hurting real bad so now I have to wait 5 seconds for the cooldown to switch back to healing to hopefully get to them in time, it is very annoying for me on all healer jobs. I don't expect DPS jobs to know their rotation 100% and do the best possible damage or tanks to hold agro 100% of the time and I also don't expect healers to suddenly become solely DPS jobs even when the stance is removed. It is just a nice feature for us healers that want to do damage and not worry about being screamed at because the cooldown on our stance keeps us from healing someone and they die. ^+^

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/sigh

I suppose I must yield to the majority who seem mostly happy with the change. I just suspect it is going to make healing anything short of high level content painfully boring for me.

I do have a concern that healers seem to be getting slowly pushed more an more in the direction of a dps role but that is what it is. At the very least it will be the reality for us for the next 2 years. I just hope we don't hit 5.0 and them going 'we aren't adding a healer job because we feel the need still balance the three we have properly' followed by more of the same. I like dpsing as a dps. I like tanking as a tank. When I heal I want my gameplay to be focused on healing. That seems to be moving away currently and I don't like that. I have never seen this 'healers must dps!' thing in other MMOs and I have never had another MMO where I have had as much healer downtime as I do in FF14. The dps thing might have been unintentional but regardless of intent they are moving things slowly more in that direction.

I suppose we will just have to wait and see.

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

With these new changes making mnd increase your dmg you literally have no excuse to not be dpsing when there isn't a need for healing, you either work or you get removed it's that simple, and these changes heavily reinforce that.

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Fine. Then start holding SMNs that don't use Eye for an Eye and Virus and BRDs that don't use their songs to the same standard.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

...skipping Soar drastically increase the success rate of the run...

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As the groups that were doing T2 in enrage mode. Skipping Rot because 99th percentile dps but 0th percentile on handling mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

People play as healers because they want a different type of gameplay to being a dps, not because they want to be a low damage support dps. Yeah I get people get annoyed at healers who just stand there (I don't cause I would fall to sleep with nothing to do) but the flipside is they play healers to heal and if the game design isn't accommodating that then there is a question as to wether the game design is letting them down. Maybe a better question is why they have so little to heal in the first place that they spend so much time standing around.

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This is a fantastic sentiment. I often times wish, as a WHM, I had more support skills, maybe an "esuna shield" party buff that blocks one status affliction? Maybe a skill that turns DPS damage into heals on my focus target or the party? That would give incentive to DPS for sure.

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

With these new changes making mnd increase your dmg you literally have no excuse to not be dpsing when there isn't a need for healing, you either work or you get removed it's that simple, and these changes heavily reinforce that.

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The first person to call that out will find a lot of healers let them die because they were "too focused on DPSing" *smirk*.

Your move.

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Originally Posted by szalkerous

This is a fantastic sentiment. I often times wish, as a WHM, I had more support skills, maybe an "esuna shield" party buff that blocks one status affliction? Maybe a skill that turns DPS damage into heals on my focus target or the party? That would give incentive to DPS for sure.

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I wanted the Dancer job from FF11 It seemed to have buffing party members and debuffing as abilities, I reckon we will get this job next since alongside Red Mage and Samurai it was also has been highly requested.

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Originally Posted by LadyAveria

I wanted the Dancer job from FF11 It seemed to have buffing party members and debuffing as abilities, I reckon we will get this job next since alongside Red Mage and Samurai it was also has been highly requested.

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My only concern is how bosses handles buffs/debuffs. If DNC have its strenght on them, they must be really powerful to avoid being "just" one of a million on a boss fight, and I'm now thinking if boss have so much debuffs, adding the DNC ones they will proc/stacks or being ignored at some point.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

I think you just highlighted that the game mechanics for healing is broken. If a healer can solo heal A12S and still be dpsing then clearly there isn't enough healing mechanics in the game to support the game play properly.

I dps when I heal. Its boring not to. I do however have a concern that healers are moving more and more towards being support dps. At that point it begs the question why even have healers if they are just becoming support dps with extremely simplified rotations? The whole point of having a healer role is to offer an alternate type of gameplay.

Not dpsing as a healer at all is pretty wasteful but there is a point to be had when a player says they play a healer to heal. If that type of gameplay isn't being supported then the devs are falling short of the goal.

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This is why I agree with people who have posted that regarding SB it would have been nice for WHM to have more utility i.e. buffs/debuffs instead of more healing spells, I would love that too. Having those kind of utility spells that contribute to DPS indirectly might make some healers more comfortable, rather than using their own direct offensive spells. I enjoy stance dancing and love to contribute to DPS, but healing is priority, if I'm new to the content I'm careful with CS. I started playing AST recently and I love the class because of the utility it brings, I'm thinking of switching to it as my main job rather than WHM.

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Originally Posted by szalkerous

your move.

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Not sure to cry or laugh at this.

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Originally Posted by ColorOfSakura

Some people who play healers are also disabled and choose healing because it is a less intensive job than most DPS jobs

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Some people who plays tanks and even DPS (check link) are disabled and I highly doubt than more than 60% of the healers are disabled. I know they exist, but you act like all of them are. If I see 8 out of 10 healers standing around afk, do I believe 8 of them are disbaled? No, maybe 1.. I don't know but for sure not all 8. This is a video of a guy playing MCH disable. Link to the video Then link to reddit post he made about the game being very disabled friendly. Link While I have given you some info on this, I would like to hear from you why 8 out of 10 healers just stand around afk. Like I said, I know disabled healers exist, but I highly doubt that all 8 are disabled, so I would like some info regards that from you.

And again... nobody said 100% performance. We are asking for people to use ALL THEIR SKILLS, than using 2 or 3 of them. If I have a healer who hit stone 3 few times or holy 2-3 times, I'm completely fine with it, because they tried and they will mostlikely do it more often as more confident they get. But when you actually don't try and then say ''I'm just here to heal every 20 seconds'' says more than 1000 words and actions of what type of person you are.
Why is is such a bad thing to even try? Most people here think it's such a bad thing. I don't get it.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Fine. Then start holding SMNs that don't use Eye for an Eye and Virus and BRDs that don't use their songs to the same standard.

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We already do. A BRD that doesn't use their songs is a wasted slot, especially in 8/24 mans. And you can't really compare a Virus/E4E to the level of support a DPSing healer supplies. Compare it instead to a SMN that won't res a dead healer, because "Muh DPS."

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Fine. Then start holding SMNs that don't use Eye for an Eye and Virus and BRDs that don't use their songs to the same standard.

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Eye for an Eye =/= 800-1,100 DPS

Putting that aside, the Duty Finder thread is littered with people mocking Bards who won't sing, Ninjas not using Shade/Smoke, Black Mages not using Enochian or tanks not using cooldowns. Why is it only healers get a free pass?

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Originally Posted by szalkerous

The first person to call that out will find a lot of healers let them die because they were "too focused on DPSing" *smirk*.

Your move.

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You realize that just gives people more motivation to kick you, yes?

You don't dps as a healer with these new changes I auto kick you, every, single, time.

Don't really have much more to say than that, is doesn't get any simpler.

I swear some people are so obsessed with how other people are playing they have no time to ever worry about what they themselves might be doing.

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

You don't dps as a healer with these new changes I auto kick you, every, single, time.

Don't really have much more to say than that, is doesn't get any simpler.

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And if I'm tanking in your party and you kick the healer, I'll leave. Thanks for giving me a free ride out of your intolerant pug.

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Originally Posted by Freyt

And if I'm tanking in your party and you kick the healer, I'll leave. Thanks for giving me a free ride out of your intolerant pug.

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What exactly are you expecting here? "K, bye"? Cause that's about the only response you'll be getting from the group. Cause I seriously doubt a group willing to kick, and wait for a better healer will care that they have to wait for a better tank as well.