I'm calling it the Epidemic. (This is a rant, if you dont wanna hear it, don't click)

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

How significant is the difference - in a regular game setting? unless it's a gross difference that actually makes a material difference, I don't see the problem here.

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You didn't made any sense for me. ELI5, please.

We should separate the data centers based on a skill test. If you pass the test then you can only work with other skilled players. If you can't then you get relegated to the minor leagues. Just think of all the problems that would solve.

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Originally Posted by Cadmar

We should separate the data centers based on a skill test. If you pass the test then you can only work with other skilled players. If you can't they you get relegated to the minor leagues. Just think of all the problems that would solve.

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"Oh, don't go to Primal, that's where all the bads are."

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

How significant is the difference - in a regular game setting? unless it's a gross difference that actually makes a material difference, I don't see the problem here.

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Hitting 3 adds at once, makes 3 adds die faster over 1. Do that over the whole dungeon. There is o difference here? ?????????????

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Originally Posted by Cadmar

We should separate the data centers based on a skill test. If you pass the test then you can only work with other skilled players. If you can't then you get relegated to the minor leagues. Just think of all the problems that would solve.

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A frequently offered idea, but various devs from competitive pvp games try to avoid adding 'prison servers' for the notoriously bad and trolls, but instead appeal on the community to report their misbehaviors so they are being dealt with (aka, suspensions and ranked play lockouts).
For this kind of game, we need to keep those who are bad and unwilling at bay by denying them the carry they hope to seek, until they either 'git gud' or leave the game - Which, in either case, the community would gain from the decision.

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Originally Posted by Cadmar

We should separate the data centers based on a skill test. If you pass the test then you can only work with other skilled players. If you can't then you get relegated to the minor leagues. Just think of all the problems that would solve.

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Don't know if you're serious or serious.

I mean, never mind what passes for a skill test in a mmorpg...

Had a good laugh. Thx

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

Hitting 3 adds at once, makes 3 adds die faster over 1. Do that over the whole dungeon. There is o difference here? ?????????????

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That's why I was asking, i don't play Monk, so I don't know. Once I level Monk, I'll know. Is that hard to understand?

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

That's why I was asking, i don't play Monk, so I don't know. Once I level Monk, I'll know. Is that hard to understand?

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Well, I am a fan of monk, and it's not as complex as people say. I consider their combo system like a sort of 3x3 grid: Everything follows Opo Opo > Raptor > Coeurl. Bootshine > True Strike > Snap Punch are your damage combo. Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Demolish are your "Damage +X" combo. Arm of Destroyer > One Ilm Punch > Rockbreaker are your "AoE" combo, save One Ilm Punch, which is largely useless outside PvP and falls into that because it has nowhere else to be. You can mix and match however(Like, Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Snap Punch are all flank skills, and Bootshine > True Strike > Demolish are all rear skills) but they all kind of fall under that grid, I find. Makes for good hotbars too!

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Originally Posted by Atlaworks

Well, I am a fan of monk, and it's not as complex as people say. I consider their combo system like a sort of 3x3 grid: Everything follows Opo Opo > Raptor > Coeurl. Bootshine > True Strike > Snap Punch are your damage combo. Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Demolish are your "Damage +X" combo. Arm of Destroyer > One Ilm Punch > Rockbreaker are your "AoE" combo, save One Ilm Punch, which is largely useless outside PvP and falls into that because it has nowhere else to be. You can mix and match however(Like, Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Snap Punch are all flank skills, and Bootshine > True Strike > Demolish are all rear skills) but they all kind of fall under that grid, I find. Makes for good hotbars too!

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Cool, thanks that makes a lot of sense. I'll be levelling monk for SB if there is a really good AF gearset, plus thematically it seems the right way to go, but I'll always be PLD main regardless. But the 3x3 grid is a great way to explain it. Thanks!

I still push for a FC house room that acts like the xmen's danger room. Let's you pull up content based on the most advanced player's level. Generates npc party members so you can go in undermanned with no wait time amd no bothering people as you learn and just freely practice either alone or with a trainer/mentor. Maybe even a pause function.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

That's why I was asking, i don't play Monk, so I don't know. Once I level Monk, I'll know. Is that hard to understand?

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Oh. I'm sorry. But what the other guy said. Dots on single target vs aoe on 3 or more. You would obviously aoe. Sorry again! And mnk is fun, so have fun with that.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

That's why I was asking, i don't play Monk, so I don't know. Once I level Monk, I'll know. Is that hard to understand?

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I don't play a monk either, but quick research on just the tooltip says that Demolish is 420 potency total, and Snap Punch is 180. Then Rockbreaker is 130 AOE. Which on 3 targets is 390 potency instantly. If the mobs aren't going to die quickly, I'd say Demolish on all, then Rockbreaker. Otherwise Rockbreaker.

That's just my assessment. From someone with a 50MNK who hasn't played one in several years (effectively don't know the class). And just going by tooltips.

A simpler example is Summoner. I can ruin for 70 potency or Blizzard II for 50. Assuming Shadowflare, Painflare, and Bane is done, it makes sense to do Blizzard over Ruin. Of course if mp is an issue, you may want to consider Ruin. Usually its not an issue, but as anyone who's done DF, a few Ressurrects can do atrocious things to your MP pool.

But suffice to say, reading a tooltip and doing simple math usually gets you the info you need. If single target does 300 and aoe is 160. Usually the AOE is more damage on two or more targets. 2 x 160 = 320 > 300. That can be done by most on the fly. Or if ST is 300 and AOE is 50.. you might want to have more than 4-5 targets before spamming AOE.

It differs class to class, and job to job.. or even class to job in some cases.

They should make a server for elitists. They will clear content on the first day because everyone will know what to do. They will never wipe because they never make mistakes. They will clear fast because will all have amazing dps. Then the rest of us mere mortals can play the game without being expected to match the skill level of the top 1% players.

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Originally Posted by Brill_

They should make a server for elitists. They will clear content on the first day because everyone will know what to do. They will never wipe because they never make mistakes. They will clear fast because will all have amazing dps. Then the rest of us mere mortals can play the game without being expected to match the skill level of the top 1% players.

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Funny thing is, you'll never be able to come to a consensus on what players actually qualify. People throw away "elitist" nowadays for simply putting out what they're doing is wrong.

i've been complaining to friends the past few weeks about this same exact thing. almost every group i get into in DF lately we have at least one, often 2 and sometimes 3 people who don't know what they're doing at all. people who don't AOE on 5+ mobs and are doing a fraction of my DPS, BLMs who don't fire 2 and just use ice, monks who use tornado kick everytime they get GL3 up, healers that refuse to DPS (though i'll admit this isn't anything new, still disappointing) OR dps with cleric stance off, WARs that just use flash and not OP, NINs that don't use trick attack or doton a single mob. believe it or not there are even some players that spam one single skill over and over out of combo. the list goes on and on. it really does feel like an epidemic, i've never encountered so many bad players in such a short amount of time as i have these past few weeks.

now i've never considered myself an elitist or anything, in fact i get extremely angry at anyone that throws FFlogs parses in my face or my friends. i've even kicked people from groups for doing that. i don't like elitists at all...

that said, i don't think i'm being an elitist by saying that people need to learn to read their skills and understand how to play their class. it makes me wonder if this game isn't doing a good enough job of teaching people how to play, maybe there needs to be more tutorials, i don't know. but something is definitely wrong when you have this many players who are absolutely awful at their job.

is it because there's a wave of new players due to the free login weekend? is it because most of the regulars have exhausted the current content and are taking a break? i don't know. but this is a serious problem. question is how do we fix it, or can we fix it at all?

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Originally Posted by Brill_

They should make a server for elitists. They will clear content on the first day because everyone will know what to do. They will never wipe because they never make mistakes. They will clear fast because will all have amazing dps. Then the rest of us mere mortals can play the game without being expected to match the skill level of the top 1% players.

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judging by the lvl of sodium in your comment, you must be one of those players in question because you obviously have ignored most of this thread
and completely failed to grasp the point. Do you also ignore your tooltips like that?

Also: Can you please stop spouting your BS about top 1% elitist players when this whole thread has been about just wanting people to TRY and accept advice?

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Originally Posted by sarehptar

Not saying there aren't plenty of sub-par players in this game, but... did you, at any point, try talking to these people in a polite and friendly way to get these problems solved?

If you notice an issue, you can reduce the likelihood of it happening to other people by (politely) sharing what you know and improving the community overall.

That will go a lot farther than a call-out post on forums populated in a vast majority by people who are already pretty passionate--and therefore at least slightly more likely--to be better players than your average DF teammate.

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I have tried this many times, unfortunately most ppl ignore it, some even get offended. I've only had a handful of ppl actually listen, and even then, there wasn't a significant difference. You can't really teach someone how to play their class in 2 or 3 lines in the middle of a dungeon. It's a good gesture, but it fails a lot more than it works.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Funny thing is, you'll never be able to come to a consensus on what players actually qualify. People throw away "elitist" nowadays for simply putting out what they're doing is wrong.

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It goes back to the Casual/Hardcore terms from when Planes of Power came out in Everquest. Before than, average players using mismatched items from 3 different expansions could do normal group stuff. In PoP, the rats in Plane of Justice would literally eat you alive if you had anything prior to High End Velious and Mid to High End Luclin gear. That mean many average players had to be turned away from Simple grouping in the new (at the time) expansion.

Some stepped up their game and adapted. Many others took offense (as is the norm for our culture of gamers to do), and lashed out. They basically said, "well my gear isn't good enough because I'm not 'Hardcore' like those raiders." And they further explained what they meant by 'hardcore' by saying, "I play casually since I have a life outside the game." Implying that those better geared then them are only capable of such simply because they don't have a life, single, and live in their parent's basements.

Its been that way for a while. Hardcore was paired up with 'no life raiders' and 'elitist' and other terms. Basically anytime you try to correct someone, or give a reason why they're falling behind, or even try to give helpful but unwanted advice (even if its needed to complete a duty). You get lashed out at and they attempt to marginalize.

I usually try to avoid such labels myself for this reason.

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Originally Posted by Brill_

They should make a server for elitists. They will clear content on the first day because everyone will know what to do. They will never wipe because they never make mistakes. They will clear fast because will all have amazing dps. Then the rest of us mere mortals can play the game without being expected to match the skill level of the top 1% players.

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Nobody is askign for the 1% top players gameplay either. They are asking to actually try and get better each time. Doesn't mean you have to be top player. What I don't get is why does people use the word elitist as a offensive word, when it's not? Now that's funny. Keep in mind there is a lot of great players and they are more than 1% of the playerbase. It feels like people actually ignore what people say in this thread and makes up some bs nobody said lol.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

Oh. I'm sorry. But what the other guy said. Dots on single target vs aoe on 3 or more. You would obviously aoe. Sorry again! And mnk is fun, so have fun with that.

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Oh, I intend to, I played a monk in my ancient dim and distant past as a student playing AD&D in the wee hours of the weekend...it's time for the return of the 'Open Paw' art of combat to return...

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Funny thing is, you'll never be able to come to a consensus on what players actually qualify. People throw away "elitist" nowadays for simply putting out what they're doing is wrong.

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You wouldn't need to come to such a consensus, I'd think that self selection would result in a server even more packed than any other.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

Nobody is askign for the 1% top players gameplay either. They are asking to actually try and get better each time. Doesn't mean you have to be top player. What I don't get is why does people use the word elitist as a offensive word, when it's not? Now that's funny. Keep in mind there is a lot of great players and they are more than 1% of the playerbase. It feels like people actually ignore what people say in this thread and makes up some bs nobody said lol.

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Elite players are not by definition elitist. There is a huge difference between the elite players who can achieve world and/or server firsts and are in the top 1-2% whenever DPS is measured for their job(s) and being a player who believe that they are that good and demands that play from everyone else - whether or not they can actually achieve it them self.

Basically, being an elite player is a measure of player skill; being an elitist is about the attitude of players, not their skill.

I frequently observe that the best players are the least likely to be elitist.

Casual players are not by definition bad players they are simply casual. Hardcore players are not by definition good, they just play a lot more and in a more focused way than casual players. Neither of these terms is a measure of relative skill of the player.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Basically, being an elite player is a measure of player skill; being an elitist is about the attitude of players, not their skill.

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People know the difference. There's an agenda behind the whole thing. " 'Elite Players' are elitist jerks. How else did they get so good at what they do and have the gear to show for it?"

Ignorance is not as widespread as people claim or think it is. That's just an excuse to avoid holding people accountable.

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Originally Posted by ArrowAmethyst

-Ninja's not using 'Kiss of the Wasp/Viper' (That's a 20% DPS loss for those that don't play Ninja, and its a set it and forget it skill)

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I don't know about the rest, but depending on what I've been playing/doing and how tired I am, I do periodically forget to put up auras that I had up and lost due to being scaled down. It could just be a simple mistake on their part. If I see other people doing it, I may try to mention it in a non-aggressive way, which usually solves the problem.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

People know the difference. There's an agenda behind the whole thing. " 'Elite Players' are elitist jerks. How else did they get so good at what they do and have the gear to show for it?"

Ignorance is not as widespread as people claim or think it is. That's just an excuse to avoid holding people accountable.

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I disagree. My experience with MMOs and other similar types of games strongly suggests that people are just given to drawing conclusions too quickly, as well as lacking sort of a broader perspective of where people fall. A lot of the most obnoxiously elitist people seem to actually be sort of mid to low tier in terms of skill and clear content very late, if at all, but simply have assured themselves they're a good player, likely because they've spent time reading a guide and can poorly replicate the instructions with little to no understanding of the underlying principles. Because they are much more numerous and spend much more time in more casual content, they're much more likely to encounter the sort of very casual and/or bad players they like to target for often unnecessarily harsh criticism. Those players they criticize in turn also tend to lack perspective and consequently don't really have the ability to realize that the player criticizing them, so they just kind of take them at their implicit word that they know what they're doing. Genuinely good players tend to be a lot more relaxed, but they're also somewhat more cliquey and generally prefer to stick to their own groups of friends, which severely limits the exposure the player base at large has to them. As a result, people essentially end up with an inordinately negative view of players who are better than them (or who they may at least believe are better than them), as they tend to only interact with the worst of the bunch (who ironically aren't very good at all), who are also typically the ones that will make a big stink out of discrepancies in skill or game knowledge.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

People know the difference. There's an agenda behind the whole thing. " 'Elite Players' are elitist jerks. How else did they get so good at what they do and have the gear to show for it?"

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If 7 people can clear extreme/savage, then they know how to play really well. I honestly don't play as good as other's for example, but it's good enough to do it well with 7 people without getting enrage. The issue is also people say it's fine 1 guy is way behind on damage as long the thing is dead. I don't fully agree there.

I've seen countless of enrages on sophia these days and it's such a shame. The people I run savage/ex with did sophia ex with 4 people many months ago, there is even a video on youtube. Link If you check the date, you can clearly see it's been a while. I just find it sad how 8 people can see enrage and we barely have any deaths in it.
This one of the few things I could bring up. If 8 people in 12s will see puddles, why do we skip ours almost with 7 people? We are basically 4-5% off the first puddle. Calling good players elitist, then come with follow up they are jerks, when they give people advice, then you simply shouldn't even talk.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

Genuinely good players tend to be a lot more relaxed, but they're also somewhat more cliquey and generally prefer to stick to their own groups of friends, which severely limits the exposure the player base at large has to them. As a result, people essentially end up with an inordinately negative view of players who are better than them (or who they may at least believe are better than them), as they tend to only interact with the worst of the bunch (who ironically aren't very good at all), who are also typically the ones that will make a big stink out of discrepancies in skill or game knowledge.

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Sounds like you are saying "anyone who's giving advice in a dungeon is a bad player"

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Originally Posted by bardaboo

Sounds like you are saying "anyone who's giving advice in a dungeon is a bad player"

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They're saying that's how they are perceived.

When in the rare occasion a good and decent player is in a PUG, and then offers advice, the other players basically shat on them. Calling them elitist and saying things like "You can't tell me how to play." And other derogatory stuff.

Again I believe is cultural. People in the NA/EU/AU regions have serious jealousy issues. Anyone who's better at something is a tryhard, anyone who has more wealth has exploited someone to get it, anyone who's charismatic and pleasant to be around is doing it for attention. Goes right into gaming from outside as well. Those with better gear, more experience, and generally succeeds does so because they are no-life elitist hardcores.

My viewpoint is that I try to give people the benefit of the doubt. My experiences of helping people has generally been positive. As in, people have been receptive of it. Maybe it's the way I phrase it (which I find surprising, I have a social disability after all). I tend to be like "Have you tried this? Here is why it helps." and give good explanations. My mentor crown isn't binned, though I rarely put it on. I take a logical approach and try and put forth an explanation behind the solution I am giving. Generally speaking, it's taken on board. I get the occasional ignore, but what can you do. But never once have I had anyone spout vitriol or the "My sub, my way" card on me.

I guess as someone with a disability myself I work differently (much like in society I work differently). However, I always try to give my best but work to give people the benefit of the doubt. I had to kick one person from a mentor roulette I was in and that was because the off-tank didn't have provoke and we literally could not beat the content without it (and not for lack of trying either). I don't intentionally enable bad play, but I do try to work to improve people. I guess the difference here is the levels at which we deem a certain player unsalvageable. And I say that's fine, as differences are what makes the world more exciting.

In DF, I go in with no expectations and be ready to see some of the most bizarre stuff which I try to work with and help fix if problems arise that I can help with. That being said, I don't know every class so I won't comment on stuff outside of my knowledge unless asked and then I will say "I believe this to be the case, but don't take my word as gospel as I'm not 100% sure" (so it's accepting I may be wrong and that they should do some further research after in case I inadvertently gave them the wrong knowledge). I try to be forgiving. I won't be walked all over (at least not intentionally), but I'll use vote kicks as a last resort only.

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Originally Posted by Cadmar

We should separate the data centers based on a skill test. If you pass the test then you can only work with other skilled players. If you can't then you get relegated to the minor leagues. Just think of all the problems that would solve.

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Will there at least be an above-average-but-don't-want-to-play-with-hardcore-???????s data center? I'd like to hit that sweet spot where I don't have to hear about savage raids, but still clear Dun Scaith without any wipes.

This game doesn't have elitists​ players , what we've got are deluded morons with poor child like attitude. Players who believe/think that are better than others in their own little world. Simple as that.

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Originally Posted by bardaboo

Sounds like you are saying "anyone who's giving advice in a dungeon is a bad player"

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No, but you're obviously bad at reading comprehension.

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Originally Posted by ArrowAmethyst

I'm not asking you to go out and be the best DPS that ever lived, but at least TRY.

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Man, I wholeheartedly agree. And no, simply being receptive to advice isn't enough. If you're so bad that someone is practically compelled to advise you on how to play, you screwed up already. Stop accepting mediocrity.

That said, as others have pointed out, 'fixing' the issue is virtually impossible. It's just people. I saw it when I was working low-end jobs back in my college days; you'd have a few gems who were competent and capable, and then a sea of crap. Utter crap. People who, for lack of a better phrase, couldn't take initiative. They couldn't push themselves to learn something if it wasn't told to them, couldn't push themselves to consistently remember something if it WAS told to them, and so on and so forth. Absolutely terrible employees, and I'm sure most of them make absolutely terrible gamers, too.

The most we could ever hope for is what FFXI did, which was erect rather significant barriers to progress. People who were crappy players had such a rough time with them that most of them didn't make it to 75. It wasn't perfect, but it was VASTLY better than the 'accessible for all' philosophy that SE seems to have embraced with FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by ErikMynhier

I still push for a FC house room that acts like the xmen's danger room. Let's you pull up content based on the most advanced player's level. Generates npc party members so you can go in undermanned with no wait time amd no bothering people as you learn and just freely practice either alone or with a trainer/mentor. Maybe even a pause function.

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Training dummy challenges as gates = problem solved.

Make it part of the unlock for hard/expert/savage modes and 8/24 player content. Just have tiers based on job and level. Basically, expand on the Novice Hall idea and have Apprentice Hall, Journeyman Hall, Master Hall, etc and tie dungeon/trial unlocks to those Halls and their challenges. Then you'd have minimum competency for random grouping.

Shamelessly stolen from Reddit:

http://i.imgur.com/cOtwoMt.jpg

Isn't this community just great? Just imagine. In a few years, everyone will be so bad that dungeons take 8 hours to complete!

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

Shamelessly stolen from Reddit:

http://i.imgur.com/cOtwoMt.jpg

Isn't this community just great? Just imagine. In a few years, everyone will be so bad that dungeons take 8 hours to complete!

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I totally agree that the Dark Knight is in the wrong here, but I will say "y dont u use darkside" isn't the best way to start any conversation, especially a critique. Saying "Hey, you should try using Darkside while you tank, it really increases your aggro, dps, and opens up some great abilities!" will (usually) be taken a lot better. Or simply asking "Hey, mind if I give you some tips?" before providing advice. Starting off a conversation with an accusation ("Why aren't you using this ability?") immediately puts the person on the defensive. Try wording it as a suggestion. Instead of "Why aren't you using X?", try saying "You should try using X because Y". Providing a brief explanation of why using that ability will make you stronger usually helps people respond to advice better as well. That's not to say I would personally be offended by a comment like that, but some people would be.

Once again, I'm not saying the Dark Knight is in the right here, or that he responded well to criticism (he responded rudely and doesn't know to play DRK at all), but I am saying you should be careful in how you word your own advice in the future. It's a really tricky thing. Some people will blow up at the slightest provocation, while others take criticism very well. But yeah, generally asking if they want some advice, or wording your advice as a suggestion really helps people respond better.

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Originally Posted by Claymore65

snip

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You're right, but my primary reason for posting that image was to show that a party member jumped to the DRK's defense. I've been seeing this a lot recently: people actively defending and shielding bad play. Usually excuses like "Nobody has died" or "We'll still clear" or "This isn't savage".

I get those points, but at some point these players need to stop being shielded. Do you know how an AST gets to level 60 without Cleric Stance? Every time he gets called out while leveling, the community jumps to his defense.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

You're right, but my primary reason for posting that image was to show that a party member jumped to the DRK's defense. I've been seeing this a lot recently: people actively defending and shielding bad play. Usually excuses like "Nobody has died" or "We'll still clear" or "This isn't savage".

I get those points, but at some point these players need to stop being shielded. Do you know how an AST gets to level 60 without Cleric Stance? Every time he gets called out while leveling, the community jumps to his defense.

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Oh, sorry, I misunderstood the point you were making. On that point, I definitely agree. While we shouldn't tolerate harassment (for example, if the red text guy had been swearing constantly and belittling the DRK repeatedly), we also shouldn't defend terrible play. The problem comes from differing expectations. You shouldn't always expect savage-level perfect DPS openers in a random roulette, but you should expect a Dark Knight to use Darkside, or a Dragoon to use Blood of the Dragon, or a Black Mage to use far more than Blizzard I/ Fire I. Everyone has a different baseline expected for play, and while I believe some set the bar too high, others set it far too low. For example, I won't mind if a Summoner doesn't apply their Dots in the perfect order, but I do mind if a Summoner doesn't apply dots at all, or refuses to use Bane/AOEs during a big pull. Finding a baseline that both supports those who have less skill or time to commit while not defending terrible play is difficult, but certainly possible.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

You're right, but my primary reason for posting that image was to show that a party member jumped to the DRK's defense. I've been seeing this a lot recently: people actively defending and shielding bad play. Usually excuses like "Nobody has died" or "We'll still clear" or "This isn't savage".

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It isn't only recently. I've seen a lot of this behavior over the last 2-3 years.

I usually always try to help my fellow players and I mentor as well....but generally 90% of the time I get ignored or get harassed for trying to help. Sometimes the harasser is not even the one I was trying to help; it is someone else in the party who jumps to defend the person I was trying to help.

I always word my advice as nice as possible but it still usually gets me no where. A lot of people do defend bad play and act like you are a really awful person for offering advice even though any advice I personally offer is with the best intentions and not trying to be rude at all.

Like one time in the Vault I was on BLM I think and my co-dps was a NIN, but they were using an i100 weapon. I casually and nicely let them know where they can look to obtain/purchase a better weapon after we finish this dungeon because i100 is a bit low for this content.

The WHM starts flipping out at me and calling me "elitist" and some other nasty things....sad thing is the NIN was actually happy to get the info and said "thank you I wasn't sure where to get a better weapon I'll do that when we get out."

The way this WHM reacted was as if I threatened to vote kick or something and I didn't do that at all. I told the NIN the info so when we all finish this dungeon they can upgrade. No threats, nice as possible, polite, still get people like this WHM flipping out on you. Gets tiresome. :/

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

You're right, but my primary reason for posting that image was to show that a party member jumped to the DRK's defense. I've been seeing this a lot recently: people actively defending and shielding bad play. Usually excuses like "Nobody has died" or "We'll still clear" or "This isn't savage".

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In my personal experience 9 times out of 10 when phrases like those are used it's because those using them just want to get out of the instance as quickly as they can with a clear and without a headache causing confrontation. I always feel that the subtext is something like "Oh will you just shut up, leave them alone and let us finish this before I go insane..."

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

No, but you're obviously bad at reading comprehension.

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You said all the genuine good players basically don't use DF and the ones that think they're good but aren't are the ones in dungeons giving advice