Can Red Mage start at level 30?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ErryK

"Traditionally" Looks like FFXIV is breaking that tradition in order to do a service for people who purchase their games. Who knew game devs would "coddle" players? As you so put it eloquently in another post.

---

Way to pick on a word I deliberately used in a sarcastic manner as a reference to a completely different post by a completely different person.

I'm not sure what "service" they are doing when walling the jobs behind 50 levels of a potentially unwanted other job. That sounds much more like an inconvenience to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zumi

I would like it to start at 60 personally so don't have to do the HW fate grind again.

---

Honestly, I'm working on my second/third job from 50 to 60 on my main and... It hasn't been bad at all? Feels faster than 1-50 even. We've been mostly doing a mix of hunts and dungeons and have plowed through 8 out of the 10 levels so far quite fast.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Naunet

snip

---

Sarcastic? You were using it to emphasize the fact that SE is handholding players by letting them start at 50. And on top of that, why shouldn't they? It's their game. Doesn't matter if it's a different post, you said that having it at 50 is "coddling" players, so don't even try to BS your way out by stating it was a reply to someone else. The context is still there.

It wouldn't be an inconvenience to even new players... they get to 50 on any ARR job, then they go to the RDM guild or wherever, get the new job and they're already Lv50. Only AST, MCH and DRK are troublesome.

I would not be opposed to Red Mage being a level 50 Class, IF both White Mage and Black Mage were requirements to unlock it, but we know that's not happening. This single job draws on the powers of two other jobs, after all. Starting at a higher level plays into the class fantasy from that perspective. You can't just be a Red Mage instantly. You need to learn the necessary skills and acquire the experience and power first.

That said, I would not be opposed if Red Mage started at 30 either, as additional quests are always welcome. However, just because it starts at 50 doesn't necessarily mean we will get fewer class quests. Perhaps Unlocking Red Mage is a much more involved questline, incorporating as many quests as 30-50 would, but without the timegate of levels between quests?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ErryK

It wouldn't be an inconvenience to even new players... they get to 50 on any ARR job, then they go to the RDM guild or wherever, get the new job and they're already Lv50. Only AST, MCH and DRK are troublesome.

---

Please go back and pay attention to the exchange I was having so you can understand the context I used the word "coddling" in. -_-;

"Hey I've had my eye on FFXIV and the red mage job looks really neat!" says an unsuspecting new player, only to find that no, they can't actually make a character and play as the class they want as they would in any other MMO - instead they must play through one third of the game before ever being able to touch that which drew them in the first place. THAT is the inconvenience.

And are we still ignoring the FACT that SE admitted locking MCH, AST, and DRK away was a mistake? Yet they insist on doing the same thing here?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Naunet

Please go back and pay attention to the exchange I was having so you can understand the context I used the word "coddling" in. -_-;

"Hey I've had my eye on FFXIV and the red mage job looks really neat!" says an unsuspecting new player, only to find that no, they can't actually make a character and play as the class they want as they would in any other MMO - instead they must play through one third of the game before ever being able to touch that which drew them in the first place. THAT is the inconvenience.

---

Life is full of hardships... oh no. Also, coddling can be a good thing, like being Lv50 in a new job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Naunet

And are we still ignoring the FACT that SE admitted locking MCH, AST, and DRK away was a mistake? Yet they insist on doing the same thing here?

---

They admitted locking them behind the walls of a city only accessible by completing the entire 2.0 story was a bad idea. I have a feeling you will be able to unlock the new jobs upon completing Praetorium.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Naunet

"Hey I've had my eye on FFXIV and the red mage job looks really neat!" says an unsuspecting new player, only to find that no, they can't actually make a character and play as the class they want as they would in any other MMO - instead they must play through one third of the game before ever being able to touch that which drew them in the first place. THAT is the inconvenience?

---

Is it truly such an inconvenience to be expected to play the game in order to access content within said game? I'm still tryingvto understand this mindset, TBQH.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Naunet

they can't actually make a character and play as the class they want as they would in any other MMO

---

Tell that to any new players looking to start WoW that wants to play Demon Hunters requiring you to have a level 70 character on the server (well a server, doesn't matter which one as long as you make the DH on that realm). It really isn't that uncommon as you are making it out to be. TERA is another example with their Reaper class and requiring you have a level 40 character before making one. I could probably dig up more examples if you would like.

Gonna disagree due to the fact leveling is slow as molasses in FFXIV.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

They admitted locking them behind the walls of a city only accessible by completing the entire 2.0 story was a bad idea. I have a feeling you will be able to unlock the new jobs upon completing Praetorium.

---

This is the most likely scenario in my mind, POSSIBLY with an additional requirment of having THM and CNJ up to 30. Given that the classless jobs we currently have did not need any other classes unlocked/at certain levels to start playing however I don't think it will happen, but its the second most likely thing to happen in my mind as well all things considered.

Personally, story aside, I don't want 50 levels of skills dumped on my hotbar that I have no idea how to use. Also, didn't they confirm that RDM would be in an ARR area? (I don't have a source other than third party info from fan fest)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Personally, story aside, I don't want 50 levels of skills dumped on my hotbar that I have no idea how to use. Also, didn't they confirm that RDM would be in an ARR area? (I don't have a source other than third party info from fan fest)

---

They stated RDM and other new classes will be made available in ARR areas, and I believe they specified one of the three starting areas as well (the three cities I imagine). As far as having 50 levels worth of skills dumped on your hotbar, I'm hoping (but not expecting) that the introductory quests to these new jobs will be a slow process of rapidly gaining abilities. So...

Quest 1 - Hey, this Soul Crystal I conveniently am holding just started glowing when you came near me. You must be a new Red Mage! Take it! Oh and this outfit/weapon.
Quest 2 - Looking good. Now that you look the part, lets start with some basic spells. Here is a target dummy. Use your long-ranged cast, your damage over time spell, and your melee thrust attack.
Quest 3 - I think you've got the gist of it. Now let's go over your healing abilities. There aren't too many, just enough to keep you on your feet. I'm going to poison you, and want you to keep yourself alive for a minute or so.
Quest 4 - Still looking a little green there, but you're not dead, so we're doing good. Let's focus some on avoiding getting hit. I'll teach you the Phalanx and Blink spells, and I want you to use them to avoid my strikes.
Quest 5 - For a moment I thought I'd killed you; you timed that blink very well. Let's talk about a Red Mage's true power; Chainspell. I want you to combine three offensive spellcasts with three melee attacks on this target dummy, and unleash the built up magic in your Crystal Medium at the end.
Quest 6 - WOW! That was amazing! I never get tired of seeing that. Just as I thought, you're a natural Red Mage. Now, while I've got plenty more to teach you, I'm going to need your help a bit. I'm here in Eorzea for (EXPOSITION). You help me, I help you. Sound good? Good. We're going to go check out Coerthas and Dravania. While you've been strong enough up to now to make some rapid progression, what I'm going to teach you going forward you're going to have to work and strive hard to master before I'll teach you anything else. Hope you're up to the task!

Begin Heavensward Job Quest. Go into Stormblood Job Quests.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vexander

RDM Training

---

I could actually get behind this a lot more than just being instant 50 and "Go, learn!"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Is it truly such an inconvenience to be expected to play the game in order to access content within said game? I'm still tryingvto understand this mindset, TBQH.

---

Because in an MMO, it's VERY important for people to be able to customize their playstyle. That's also the reason we have things like glamours, different mounts, houses, and other things. Some people enjoy a specific playstyle, and having a job with that playstyle locked behind a 40 hour wall isn't good game or business sense. Players shouldn't have to work to have fun. They should be having fun all the time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SDaemon

Tell that to any new players looking to start WoW that wants to play Demon Hunters requiring you to have a level 70 character on the server (well a server, doesn't matter which one as long as you make the DH on that realm). It really isn't that uncommon as you are making it out to be. TERA is another example with their Reaper class and requiring you have a level 40 character before making one. I could probably dig up more examples if you would like.

---

Doesn't simply purchasing Legion grant you a level boost which is more than sufficient for unlocking Demon Hunter? Also in TERA you could have a friend power level you to 40 in a couple hours if they had a warrior or a mystic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AlphaFox

I could actually get behind this a lot more than just being instant 50 and "Go, learn!"

---

Its what I'm hoping for. A bit of a variation on the Novice Training halls, except you get all your gear and weapon upfront, and all your spells, and then practice using them in the quest to get your feet wet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by basketofseals

Because in an MMO, it's VERY important for people to be able to customize their playstyle. That's also the reason we have things like glamours, different mounts, houses, and other things. Some people enjoy a specific playstyle, and having a job with that playstyle locked behind a 40 hour wall isn't good game or business sense. Players shouldn't have to work to have fun. They should be having fun all the time.

---

Precisely. Blizzard practically gives away levels, which makes any associated requirements completely painless. It has a negligible, almost non-existent, effect on new players and doesn't affect old players at all. FFXIV's strategy, however, affects new and old players a lot in a very noticeable way. It's not that you need ANY character leveled to 50 and through the storyline - it's that if you want to start a new character, you have to level that specific one all the way through again. That is a VERY different beast.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by basketofseals

Doesn't simply purchasing Legion grant you a level boost which is more than sufficient for unlocking Demon Hunter? Also in TERA you could have a friend power level you to 40 in a couple hours if they had a warrior or a mystic.

---

In time you'll be able to purchase a level boost here or you could have a friend level with you here now. Neither of which changes the fact that other MMOs require you to have a high level character before trying out new classes/jobs. The precedent exists, it isn't something that SE just pulled out of nowhere to piss people off.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SDaemon

In time you'll be able to purchase a level boost here or you could have a friend level with you here now. Neither of which changes the fact that other MMOs require you to have a high level character before trying out new classes/jobs. The precedent exists, it isn't something that SE just pulled out of nowhere to piss people off.

---

I'm not talking about buying a level boost. I believe a level boost came for free with the expansion. One came for free with WoD too.

Also TERA's power leveling is absolutely nothing like leveling with a friend in this game. You could go from 1-20 in a single pull, probably to 30 within an hour, and 40 will probably only take a couple more. You don't even have to do anything. Just sit there while your friend murders a pack of 30+ mobs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SDaemon

In time you'll be able to purchase a level boost here or you could have a friend level with you here now. Neither of which changes the fact that other MMOs require you to have a high level character before trying out new classes/jobs. The precedent exists, it isn't something that SE just pulled out of nowhere to piss people off.

---

Again: you only have a couple examples, one of which is barely even noticeable given that you get a level boost included in the purchase of the expansion. (Is SE prepared to offer a character boost with the purchase of SB? They don't even offer ARR at a discount.) Also, neither require that you go through 1-70 every single time you want to make a Demon Hunter. If in FFXIV you simply had to go through the story once on any character, and then you could make alts of any class, then PERHAPS you would have a point. But that is not the case.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Naunet

Again: you only have a couple examples

---

There are plenty of examples of MMOs that require you to level to unlock new classes/jobs, if you would use google. I even offered to search for more for you if you felt you needed more examples.

EDIT:
Eden Eternal
Skyforge
Tree of Saviors

No counter to the rest of my post then? Interesting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Naunet

No counter to the rest of my post then? Interesting.

---

You are trying to make an argument about alts now. That isn't what we were talking about. So yes, interesting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SDaemon

There are plenty of examples of MMOs that require you to level to unlock new classes/jobs, if you would use google. I even offered to search for more for you if you felt you needed more examples.

EDIT:
Eden Eternal
Skyforge
Tree of Saviors

---

I don't have knowledge of any of these games. Are they successful? What's their leveling system/expected time to reach the thresholds for new classes? Are they end game focused?

I know Eden Eternal and Skyforge seem to be doing well though Skyforge (unless I am mistaken or they changed it) required you to grind weekly materials, skill point orbs and such to work your way around a FFX like grid to unlock the job, so you had free range of the map once you picked your starter. Eden Eternal was more like Tactics, in that you needed X level of this class to unlock this class, or you need these two at this level to unlock. Plus you had to start over at level 1 but you had a Job level and you had your character level, so you wouldn't be starting exactly back at level 1, you would have some bonuses to your stats.

Skyforge, I think took me 2-3 weeks of playing from start to unlock my first class Reaper, but I also bypassed 1 other that I could have gotten but that would have used my resources which again, are capped weekly. Though upside they had places where you can test the job and even some missions let you run as that class without it being unlocked.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by basketofseals

snip

---

Of those examples the only one I've played is Skyforge where you basically play as developing Gods. The classes, and everything else really, are unlocked through the Ascension Atlas through prestige. To start from you choose from 3 classes, but you unlock others by progressing through the Atlas. Once you've reached a certain point on one of these 3 "starter" classes you unlock the upper tier. Think of it as similar to FFX's sphere grid in terms of what the atlas offers. For comparisons sake you would play as Black Mage (Lulu) until you progressed to the point where you could play and progress as a White Mage (Yuna). The game gets very grindy at the end with prestige which is the games way of "leveling", since you can essentially go on and on. There are raids and such that you can do to build prestige, get gear etc.

Ex. If you want to play as a Monk, you are going to have to put in a good chunk of your time progressing through the ascension atlas to unlock the advanced jobs. I haven't played in months, but it took me about a day of play time (24hrs played) to get Necromancer.

Similar to XIV though you can swap between classes any time you are not in combat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AlphaFox

that would have used my resources which again, are capped weekly.

---

Sparks vs Tomes...hmm. I think I prefer Tomes :) Though maybe gathering nodes and scripts would be a better comparison.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SDaemon

You are trying to make an argument about alts now. That isn't what we were talking about. So yes, interesting.

---

No, I'm pointing out the very important differences between your examples and FFXIV. Does SE plan to provide a free character boost with every purchase of the game? Does SE plan to make it so that, instead of having to level up to 50 and do the ARR story on every character in order to access HW and SB jobs, you only have to have done it on one character on the account?

If not, then your examples are not comparable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Naunet

No, I'm pointing out the very important differences between your examples and FFXIV. Does SE plan to provide a free character boost with every purchase of the game? Does SE plan to make it so that, instead of having to level up to 50 and do the ARR story on every character in order to access HW and SB jobs, you only have to have done it on one character on the account?

If not, then your examples are not comparable.

---

At the moment I can't even tell what you are trying to argue anymore other than you are focusing on alts and WoW's level skip bundle. Are we talking about new jobs in regards to making alts now?

It's not that hard to follow. I suspect you're trying to claim I'm being confusing in an effort to devalue my point.

- I assert that it's an unnecessary burden and not particularly fun for new and old players alike to have jobs locked away behind a large grind wall.
- You claim that other MMOs have done similar things and point out WoW and TERA as examples.
- I (and another person) point out that both only require you to have leveled ONCE, which then makes those classes available to any character you wish to make, while FFXIV requires that you level through ARR on every single character you ever make in order to access those jobs. We also point out that the impact on new players in those games is negligible at best, because the purchase of Legion comes with a level 90 character boost, which basically means the "must have a level 70 to make a demon hunter" requirement may as well not exist.
- I pointed these out because it displays that FFXIV's situation is unique and damages the player experience in ways the other examples do not.
- Now you can't follow the conversation for some reason..?

The job system kind of follows a modified version of XI's system. You had to level 30 in order to do a "advanced job" and it was per character not per account and the grind in that game was way more then you will ever find in XIV.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SDaemon

Of those examples the only one I've played is Skyforge where you basically play as developing Gods. The classes, and everything else really, are unlocked through the Ascension Atlas through prestige. To start from you choose from 3 classes, but you unlock others by progressing through the Atlas. Once you've reached a certain point on one of these 3 "starter" classes you unlock the upper tier. Think of it as similar to FFX's sphere grid in terms of what the atlas offers. For comparisons sake you would play as Black Mage (Lulu) until you progressed to the point where you could play and progress as a White Mage (Yuna). The game gets very grindy at the end with prestige which is the games way of "leveling", since you can essentially go on and on. There are raids and such that you can do to build prestige, get gear etc.

Ex. If you want to play as a Monk, you are going to have to put in a good chunk of your time progressing through the ascension atlas to unlock the advanced jobs. I haven't played in months, but it took me about a day of play time (24hrs played) to get Necromancer.

Similar to XIV though you can swap between classes any time you are not in combat.

---

I'm curious as to how the focus is. Developing your power as a god sounds very interesting, but I don't think it's quite the same as FFXIV. In this game, players are pretty focused on the level cap experience, so that reaching that job and beginning to develop their skills as soon as possible is important. Forgive me if I'm wrong in my assumptions, but Skyforge sounds like a game based on continuous development though leveling. FFXIV on the other hand is end game focused with an emphasis on gear. The job changing we can do is simply a convenience rather than the focus. Aside from a few cross class skills, which may be eliminated entirely in the expansion, you don't really gain any sort of advantage from leveling other jobs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Naunet

It's not that hard to follow. I suspect you're trying to claim I'm being confusing in an effort to devalue my point.

- I assert that it's an unnecessary burden and not particularly fun for new and old players alike to have jobs locked away behind a large grind wall.
- You claim that other MMOs have done similar things and point out WoW and TERA as examples.
- I (and another person) point out that both only require you to have leveled ONCE, which then makes those classes available to any character you wish to make, while FFXIV requires that you level through ARR on every single character you ever make in order to access those jobs. We also point out that the impact on new players in those games is negligible at best, because the purchase of Legion comes with a level 90 character boost, which basically means the "must have a level 70 to make a demon hunter" requirement may as well not exist.
- I pointed these out because it displays that FFXIV's situation is unique and damages the player experience in ways the other examples do not.
- Now you can't follow the conversation for some reason..?

---

Her argument was that there's a precedent for MMOs employing such a system to a degree of success, and while the WoW and TERA comparison has been disproven, she's provided other examples to which another poster has confirmed they do exist and work within other games. You're focusing on one thing we've moved on from.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Naunet

- I (and another person) point out that both only require you to have leveled ONCE, which then makes those classes available to any character you wish to make, while FFXIV requires that you level through ARR on every single character you ever make in order to access those jobs. We also point out that the impact on new players in those games is negligible at best, because the purchase of Legion comes with a level 90 character boost, which basically means the "must have a level 70 to make a demon hunter" requirement may as well not exist.
- I pointed these out because it displays that FFXIV's situation is unique and damages the player experience in ways the other examples do not.
- Now you can't follow the conversation for some reason..?

---

How many of these other examples let you make 1 character that can unlock every class in the game? That argument seems a bit silly in this regard.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Naunet

- I (and another person) point out that both only require you to have leveled ONCE, which then makes those classes available to any character you wish to make, while FFXIV requires that you level through ARR on every single character you ever make in order to access those jobs. We also point out that the impact on new players in those games is negligible at best, because the purchase of Legion comes with a level 90 character boost, which basically means the "must have a level 70 to make a demon hunter" requirement may as well not exist.

---

Legion comes with a level 100 character boost and let's you jump immediately in to the new content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

How many of these other examples let you make 1 character that can unlock every class in the game? That argument seems a bit silly in this regard.

---

To be fair, XIV's method of gear-gating at this point does make it advantageous to simply make a brand new character if you're interested in playing more than one job competitively at endgame. I have a friend who plays two characters - he raids on his main, a WAR, and also raids on his alt, a SCH. He would prefer to do both of those jobs on one character for convenience's sake, but with raid lockouts and weekly tome caps he simply couldn't play both at the same time at the serious endgame level (not without waiting several months to finish gearing his WAR then trying to attempt the raid as SCH...which would require the SCH in his raid group to have some other role THEY could swap to. It was just easier for him to find a second raid group and do double the weekly content).

I honestly think the game could improve much in this regard. My friend is not the only player I know who has made alternate characters purely out of frustration at the constant weekly gear gating... I know some people make alts for racial flavor, RP, or just because they want to do the MSQ again, but I don't really feel like it should be a requirement simply to gear more than one job at faster than a snail's pace.

That said, I don't get the hand-wringing over the RDM 50 requirement, my comments are more on a general level about how FFXIV's "one character can do it all" appeal isn't quite so accurate anymore. Even crafters are being forced to prioritize now.

I'd like to show my support for starting at level 30!

Making it start at 50 is like playing some of the content for me... whats the point in that!? If people want to skip, then make them pay for it and let those of us who actually want to play the game, play.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Niqote

I'd like to show my support for starting at level 30!

Making it start at 50 is like playing some of the content for me... whats the point in that!? If people want to skip, then make them pay for it and let those of us who actually want to play the game, play.

---

The issue is that the level boost potions aren't going to be released with Stormblood. If they were, I'd honestly have no problem with this approach, but from what I understand the devs a.) aren't planning on releasing them until after Stormblood is out, and b.) if they're like the Chinese ones, you can't use them on the most current jobs anyway, which is IMO asinine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

How many of these other examples let you make 1 character that can unlock every class in the game? That argument seems a bit silly in this regard.

---

What does that have to do with anything? If the game didn't allow alts, you'd have a point, but since we are perfectly free to make multiple characters, it's not unreasonable to expect to be able to roll a character as the job we'd like.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Khalithar

Legion comes with a level 100 character boost and let's you jump immediately in to the new content.

---

Oh, my mistake! Definitely just reinforces my point, though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Niqote

Making it start at 50 is like playing some of the content for me... whats the point in that!?

---

Stormblood comes with live-in powerlevelers? You heard it here first. :u

If I remember correct the minute you spoke with the NPC you were lvl 30 so how can they start at lvl 1 in POTD if there was never a level 1 for that job?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renius

If I remember correct the minute you spoke with the NPC you were lvl 30 so how can they start at lvl 1 in POTD if there was never a level 1 for that job?

---

The same way you can run dungeons under level 30...

No. Leaving it at 50 gives people options. Lowering it forces everyone to go through extra leveling. The games gives you multiple ways to slowly learn your jobs. You can do fates, lower level dungeons, or POTD. Leaving it 50 allows people to decided how quickly they want to jump into new content. I plan to do POTD because I can learn my skills at my own pace and then start leveling to 60 when I feel comfortable. With POTD there is no real reason to drop the level to 30. You can go in to POTD solo or with a friend. I hated having to level AST all the way to 50 before I could start the story. It put me behind in the expansion pack.